Howley telling porkies about peel??

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Post by jb1973 on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 9:35 pm

Howley went to the press to explain that peel is unfit but apparently he is fully fit, has been for the last 3 weeks and will be playing for Sale friday?

Gats and co seem to have a real downer on him for some reason, personally I'd have him in my 22 any day of the week

agree or disagree?


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Post by J_D on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 10:21 pm

Assuming he is fully fit and has some form then its a no brainer, really don't understand Gatlands dislike of him, and we have other players playing outside of wales so i really cant understand it.

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Post by Coleman on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 11:15 pm

It seems that Gatland is trying his best to stick to his "play in wales" rule. You could argue that Mitchell, Byrne and Hook havnt started playing away from Wales yet. Where as Peel and Delve have. Henson is "unatchached" and Gats loves him. Only thing i can think of :/

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Post by HammerofThunor on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 11:49 pm

Maybe Peel isn't fit enough for international rugby and will therefore not be able to stake a claim for the World Cup but is fit enough for a pre-season friendly at a lower level for a team he'll be playing with for at least a year.

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Post by nottins on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:31 am

Rumour has it that Peel is outspoken and Gatland doesn't like it.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 8:47 am

It's out of order for Howley to say Peel's injured when he isn't; but Gatland's said that Tavis Knoyle and Lloyd Williams are in great shape and looking sharp in training, so it's understandable that he's gone for them.

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Post by offload on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 8:52 am

Was a big fan of Peel in his day......but could it be that he just isn't good enough??

I can't fathom some of Gatland's selections and I remain more a critic than a fan, but this close to the WC surely Gatland would take Peel if he thought it would help his campaign.
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Post by mckay1402 on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 8:59 am

I think there are better scrum halfs at the moment. Knoyle, L. Williams and Phillips are all better options at the moment so it makes no odds whether he's fit or not.
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Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 9:00 am

The talent is clearly there but I'm guessing that because Peel has the danglies to speak up and maybe criticise his bosses he is seen as a disrupter and therefore the management don't want him near the team.

Having seen how a disrupter such as Cipriani has affected the England team in the past (although this was mainly down to him loving himself and believing his own hype and being generally unpopular rather than having a go at the management) I think that Gatland and Howley have done the right thing but handled it in the wrong way/

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Post by samuraidragon on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:10 am

Don't get this at all. Gatland has picked one of the greatest disrupters ever , Henson, and outside-Wales players like Powell. Must be more to it than meets the eye.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:24 am

There seems to be a lot of confusion or secrecy about certain injuries at the moment and I must admit Gatland seems to now be sticking to the in Wales policy.

As mentioned, Mitchell, Byrne and Hook haven't played outside of Wales yet (next 6 Nations will be interesting) and Henson hasn't got a club.

So it seems only Buggy Boy is being considered from those outside of Wales but God Only Knows Why.
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Post by Coleman on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:39 am

I forgot about Powell playing for Wasps, now Sale. I really dont think we should be taking Powell. Hes showed some much promise in that one game vs SA. Then he just didnt develop. Much rather we took JT or McCusker. Powell offers nothing and the Islanders will destroy him if he runs at straight at him.

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Post by Totallybiasedscarlet on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 10:54 am

I think that snippet of news tells us all we need to know about Peels chances of going to the RWC. That's probably it for him now on the test front also unless Gatland goes this autumn.

Shame. I'd have him ahead of Phillips any day of the week. In fact if he lost all his limbs in an industrial accident I'd still put him ahead of Phillips! Wink
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Post by PenfroPete on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:19 am

If Gatland believes there are better scrum-halves the Peel then fine. We as Welsh fans may not like it but there it is. What really gets our backs up is this smokescreen bullsh!te about injuries Howley telling porkies about peel?? 2650018817 Peel's version - LINK
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 11:21 am

PP,

Agree with you on that front, Gats makes the decisions and lives or dies by them as they say.

BUT ust come out and tell us the truth, as for the possibility of taking Jenkins and Henson in the hope they recover in time is just ludicrous.

What if we pick up further injuries before they recover.
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Post by BATH_BTGOG on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 12:56 pm

Peel?

Wasn't he a quality scrumhalf a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away! Whistle
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Post by doctornickolas on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:15 pm

The fact is that Peel has shot himself in the foot.

Firstly by going to play in England anyway and not getting release clauses.
Secondly by signing another contract and still not getting release clauses

As a result of these he was unable to link up until 4 August which meant he missed both Poland trips and a heck of a lot of other training.

This meant that he was always going to be up against it to get a place.

Gatland's Law as it has been called only ever said that a player in Wales playing as well as a player in England would get the call first.

Is Peel playing so much better than anything we have playing in Wales??

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Post by BATH_BTGOG on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:21 pm

True as an international standard player he should have had a clause in his contract that said his entitled to be released for training etc.

Didn't the WRU offer Peel any advice before he signed a contract with an English club?

Also I find it a bit rich that a Kiwi coach has an issue with a Welsh player playing in England! If anything that can only benefit the Welsh squad.
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Post by gilla on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 1:58 pm

BATH_BTGOG wrote:True as an international standard player he should have had a clause in his contract that said his entitled to be released for training etc.

Didn't the WRU offer Peel any advice before he signed a contract with an English club?

I wish people would take the time to find out the facts before they post rubbish. It has nothing to do with Peel's contract it has everything to do with Sale's contract with PRL. If Sale released him before 4 August they would have been deducted points at the start of the new season!! They French based players don't have the same problem because there is no such agreement between the FRU and the clubs.
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Post by samuraidragon on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 2:05 pm

But in contractual terms, what is the difference between Peel and Powell? And why the (already discredited) spin?

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Post by TheBlueMonday on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 2:36 pm

samuraidragon wrote:But in contractual terms, what is the difference between Peel and Powell? And why the (already discredited) spin?

Andy Powell's contract with Sale only commenced after the 04/08/2011 date that English Clubs were obliged to relase Non-English players. Until that point Powell was 'unattached'.

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Post by dogtooth on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 3:20 pm

is he injured or not? is he fit and in form or not? would he be a challange for any of the 9s in the training squad?

how can gatland tell? peel has been training with sale all summer and not been alowed to attend any of wales' training sessions.

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Post by wayne on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:27 pm

doctornickolas hasthis right, it is Peels own fault he didn't get the release clause written into his 2nd contract, especially after no Welsh team came in for him. None of the other players mentioned have fallen into that trap YET.
Let's hope this warning will hopefully make any other player that decides to go out of Wales to play to have this clause covered. The only debateable point is whether the correct reason for not picking him was stated, if not, why not.
IMO if the reason is to prove the point I've illustrated then I'm 200% with WG on this one.

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Post by Smirnoffpriest on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:38 pm

It is as Wayne says Peels fault, particularly for sticking with a side where hsi form has diminished dramatically and he's made it pretty hard to be selected internationally.

All the same I wish Gats would stop with the little lies and the mudding the water for no reason - as it just ends up making him look stupid and makes everyone think he's full of ...

I'm not sure if Peels playing better than Knoyle or Williams (or Rees), but it is a shame as he's still young enough to get right back to where he was and be a very good player.

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Post by samuraidragon on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:40 pm

Blue Monday - true, but Gatland picked Powell when he was playing for Wasps too, no?

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Post by munkian on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:51 pm

Robert Jones wants Dwayne Peel included in Wales squad


Last edited by munkian on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Smirnoffpriest on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 4:52 pm

Samurai - thats the other problem with Gats, he has a real hard on for some players like Powell, Phillips & Bennett and they have to do something really stupid to get dropped (Powell I'm looking at you), whereas other players never seem to get considered by Gats or if they do they get dropped after a game (Brew, Peel, Iestyn, Delve even Richie Rees to a certain extent).

There is a rumour that Gats likes Yes men, and a further rumour that Peel speaks his mind and lets the management know if something isn't right - which Gats doesn't like so freezes him out.

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Post by Cymroglan on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 5:08 pm

Peel has declared himself fit but how fit is he ?

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Post by Smirnoffpriest on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 5:19 pm

well if he's going to play in a game on Friday and has been training for 1-2 months then he must be at least pretty fit, fitter than say Jenkins, A Jones, Henson.

I think the real question is how good/on form is he - and does Gats have a personal problem with him? and if so why even mention an injury, just say he was dropped as we (WRU) didn't feel he'd reached a sufficient level or some other blah.

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Post by wayne on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 6:54 pm

I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point, the reason DP is not in the squad, is that WG told him at the time of his second contract to definately get it installed in his contract to be available for all training sessions, which he obviously didn't. Because of the altercation which was so public with the umbrella organisation for the English clubs, he is making it patently obvious he his making him the scapegoat for this and giving a warning to any player that goes in the future to get this clause covered.
As I said earlier I'm totally with WG on this

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Post by Londonwelsh on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:16 pm

I’ve come to the conclusion that Warren Gatland (for whatever reason) just doesn’t like Dwayne Peel. Peel has never prospered under the Warren Gatland era.

Dwayne Peel is not the player he was in 2005 but I still feel he has a lot to offer Wales. It looks likely that we will only be taking one experienced scrum-half. If Phillips got injured, Gatland would have to call upon the inexperience of Knoyle or Williams. Seems very risky to me.
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Post by Londonwelsh on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:27 pm

wayne wrote:I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point, the reason DP is not in the squad, is that WG told him at the time of his second contract to definately get it installed in his contract to be available for all training sessions, which he obviously didn't. Because of the altercation which was so public with the umbrella organisation for the English clubs, he is making it patently obvious he his making him the scapegoat for this and giving a warning to any player that goes in the future to get this clause covered.
As I said earlier I'm totally with WG on this

So if James Hook, Lee Bryne, or Adam Jones were in the same position Warren Gatland would have still left them out ?

I dont think so. As I said Gatland does not like Peel and is not willing to make exceptions for him unlike a certain Mr Henson who Gatland does like. Gatland has his favourites and Peel is not one of them i'm afraid.
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Post by wayne on Wed 17 Aug 2011, 7:46 pm

You might have a point about Adam, but if the other 2 had gone at the same stages in their career, and WG had taken the same amount of flak, and then signed another contract without covering themselves, they would also be out on their ears. The only thing protecting Adam is because of his class, Dwayne is unlucky in that he has competition for his position that are a lot stronger than Adams, that was the point of the initial Gatlands Law, for the strength of Welsh Regional Rugby that must be adhered to.

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Post by Knowsit17 on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 2:09 am

If it's plain lies then it's disgusting, without going into a rant of what the consequences ought to be. There's a slight chance it's down to bad communication between Wales and Sale but I can't fathom it.

Cannot agree with Rob Jones or anyone else who thinks Peel should be included in the 30-man squad. One simple question - what was Peel done since the last WC to deserve a place?

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Post by Comfort on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:49 am

Knowsit17 wrote:what was Peel done since the last WC to deserve a place?

a good 30 minutes for Sale when they were getting steamrolled by Leicester last season wasnt it?

Seriously, he used to be excellant, but something he had that made him stand out has gone, I'd take one of the youngsters to this World Cup over him.

Interesting thought about him not being a "yes man", I had heard there was a similar rumour about Delve. Which is plausible.....

Headscratch

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:54 am

wayne wrote:I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point, the reason DP is not in the squad, is that WG told him at the time of his second contract to definately get it installed in his contract to be available for all training sessions, which he obviously didn't. Because of the altercation which was so public with the umbrella organisation for the English clubs, he is making it patently obvious he his making him the scapegoat for this and giving a warning to any player that goes in the future to get this clause covered.
As I said earlier I'm totally with WG on this

Sorry, but that's rubbish. If what you claim is true and Gatland wanted to 'send a message,' surely the message would be stronger if he didn't call him up at all.

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Post by samuraidragon on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 11:11 am

Luckless Pedestrian (great handle, love the Dan), this whole Peel situation reeks of spin and cover-up. I'm not sure whether Peel's form would put him in the mix or not, but such decisions should be taken in a transparent way. As you say, if Peel's contract is the barrier, then he should have never been in the squad in the first place.

I don't like "Gatland's Law" - it prevents players maximizing their income in what is a short and high-risk playing career, and also diminishes the number of choices for the national squad in key positions - but if there is to be such a rule , it should be clear and uniform, not discretionary and therefore open to favouritism.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 11:37 am

Transparency is all you can ask for. If Howley'd come out and said that the coaching team simply preferred the other three scrum halves, there'd be no problem. It's the fact that he told the press Peel was injured when he isn't that annoys me - it's pretty disgraceful, actually.

And yes, the Dan were a fine band! OK

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Post by wayne on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 5:00 pm

luckless_pedestrian wrote:
wayne wrote:I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point, the reason DP is not in the squad, is that WG told him at the time of his second contract to definately get it installed in his contract to be available for all training sessions, which he obviously didn't. Because of the altercation which was so public with the umbrella organisation for the English clubs, he is making it patently obvious he his making him the scapegoat for this and giving a warning to any player that goes in the future to get this clause covered.
As I said earlier I'm totally with WG on this

Sorry, but that's rubbish. If what you claim is true and Gatland wanted to 'send a message,' surely the message would be stronger if he didn't call him up at all.
It is not rubbish at all, he had to call DP into the squad to emphasise the point that he would not be available until Aug 4th, thereby missing all the Poland jaunt and basically the first 2 matches.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 5:22 pm

I think it is far kinder on Peel to claim he has fitness issues than to state the honest truth that he just isn't good enough.

Peel has been on average form since he left Wales. Formerly a talented player but rarely has he shown his best recently.

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Post by Seagultaf on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 5:33 pm

A lot of people are missing the point, this is nothing to do with Sale, or Peel's contract. This is all about the English PRL who will only release players outside International Windows if their home Union is prepared to pay compensation. The English RFU have paid up, so have Scotland and Ireland and their players have been relaesed. The WRU will not pay.

Welsh players who are unatached or are moving outside Wales this summer, have accomodated this into their contract. ie Powell does not become a Sale player until the start of next season so at present does not come under the PRL ruling.

The fact of the matter is that Peel has been available since 4th August, but has not been called into the squad despite initially being named and being fit. Hibbard however, only came into the squad on 15th August and gets picked to start against Argentina.

There is clearly something amiss here. Either, Gatland, Howley or the WRU have put a block on Peel joining the squad for whatever reason.

Knoyle has played well for the Scarlets this season and probably deserves his call up, Lloyd Williams however, has only had a handful of games for Cardiff and is clearly second choice to Rees, who is not rated good enough for the Wales squad. Peel, in my opinion, despite strugling of late in a very poor Sale side is better than both.

Answers on a postcard!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 6:05 pm

wayne wrote:
luckless_pedestrian wrote:
wayne wrote:I'm sorry but I think you are all missing the point, the reason DP is not in the squad, is that WG told him at the time of his second contract to definately get it installed in his contract to be available for all training sessions, which he obviously didn't. Because of the altercation which was so public with the umbrella organisation for the English clubs, he is making it patently obvious he his making him the scapegoat for this and giving a warning to any player that goes in the future to get this clause covered.
As I said earlier I'm totally with WG on this

Sorry, but that's rubbish. If what you claim is true and Gatland wanted to 'send a message,' surely the message would be stronger if he didn't call him up at all.
It is not rubbish at all, he had to call DP into the squad to emphasise the point that he would not be available until Aug 4th, thereby missing all the Poland jaunt and basically the first 2 matches.

I don't quite understand the logic there, but I'm not going to argue.

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Post by wayne on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 6:36 pm

luckless, I'm not into arguing either, Gatland had his problems with the PRL before his contract extension, when he again asked DP to get it written into his contract, he didn't or couldn't so he then selected him for the squad to emphasise the point that the PRL wouldn't release him, by then using the unfit ruse (which I don't agree with) he is warning any other player going out of Wales to play to get it written in or get in the instance of Mitchell and Powell to start after the World Cup.
If I sound as if I'm arguing I apologise that is not my intention.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 7:21 pm

No need to apologise, Wayne - I know what you mean now! OK

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 7:32 pm

The most likely conclusion i can make is that what Wales consider fit and what a foreign club considers fit may also differ greatly.

We have seen similar before. Even with welsh regions.


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Post by welshy824 on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 7:36 pm

thing is has anyone actually seen peel play? i mean i know people are annoyed that there is people lying but the fact is phillips has some form and the two other SH look promising and if peel isint good enough on form then...

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 11:48 am

There is no proof of anyone lying.

The Welsh Coaches say he is not fit, he considers himself fit.

All explained below via the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/14582184.stm

BBC Sport wrote:"So it was a bit disappointing to hear the [Diamond] comments," said Gatland, who says Peel could be called up if injuries hit his World Cup squad. Diamond described Peel as "fit as a butcher's dog".

The Wales coach says he has not spoken to Sale executive director of sport Diamond. Instead, Gatland has liaised with Sale's new coach Tony Hanks, a former Wasps boss who was Gatland's assistant from 2005-08 at New Zealand province Waikato.

Gatland also hit out at media reporting of the row.

He said: "I think a couple of the articles in the last few days was typical Poopie-stirring of the Welsh media.

"And it was disappointing from my point of view and I wasn't asked on those questions.

"I haven't spoken to Steve Diamond personally because he has a hands-off role at Sale, not doing the day-to-day coaching - that's being done by Tony Hanks.

"And I've spoken to Tony on a number of occasions about his players, including Dwayne [and] Andy Powell.

"So it was a bit disappointing to hear the comments - I think it's been highlighted about Dwayne's unavailability to us.

"We did receive an email from the Sale physio on 8 August to say that he did have a problem with his hip, that he wasn't taking a part in contact during training and so we used that information to make our judgement at that stage not to have included him."

Gatland says he recently met Hanks in London to talk about Sale's Wales contingent and received a good report on utility back Nick Macleod, who joined the Avivia Premiership club from Cardiff Blues in 2008.

"I've spoken to him [Hanks], like I've said, on a number of occasions - I even spoke to him yesterday [Wednesday] about the Welsh players up in Sale.

"So yes he's been training, we know he's been training, but that hasn't been the concern with Dwayne.

Continue reading the main story
Yes he's [Dwayne Peel] trained, but he hasn't taken a full part in training
Warren Gatland
Wales coach
"The concern that we've had with Dwayne has come in the past was one, has been his non-availability and two, is that he hasn't always been able to take a full part in training sessions.

"And the way that we've been training and the work we've done in the last couple of months - how physical it's been, a lot of contact sessions - there's always sometimes been that question mark about his fitness.

"Yes he's trained, but he hasn't taken a full part in training.

"That still doesn't mean that given that if there's an injury and experienced player like Mike Phillips gets injured that we wouldn't go to someone like Dwayne because we know about his ability.

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Post by Comfort on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 11:52 am

Can anyone tell me the last time Peel had a run of at least 4/5 games where he genuinely looked international quality for sale? Just asking as I dont get to see them much, but he always seems to be injured one way or another....

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 11:54 am

He hasn't had a decent run since he joined, either due to injury or squad rotation. He was playing well for them around the start of the Six Nations, played off the bench for Wales, showed glimmers of good work but nothing Knoyle can't do better.

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Post by Smirnoffpriest on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 11:58 am

Maesteg in that article Gatland is saying Sale told him on the 8th of August last week that Peel had a hip injury and Gats goes on to say that he's not in contact training, yet Peel and Diamond are saying (in the original article) he's fighting fit and is in full contact training. So someone must be lying, or there is a god awful communication problem somewhere.

Doesn't detract from the point that he probably wouldn't have gotten into the squad anyway, but it strikes of minds games and unprofessionalism.

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