Who said forced carries were bad?

NOTE: I recommend going through the thread before you start reading and open the spoilers and enlarge the pictures, as the text then makes more sense.

I have offered the opinion many times on here that a forced carry is the ultimate sin when it comes to golf course architecture as it ruins the hole for the vast majority of those who play it. Is there however a type of forced carry that is under utilized and can in fact offer the chance for both good ball strikers and those better around the green to excel?

I believe there is and the home of golf has two examples, one famous and one not so. I am talking about the par 5 5th on the old course and the short par 4 15th on the Jubilee course. You are probably thinking right now that there is no water or even vast bunkers on these holes and you would of course be correct. What they both have instead of this is a natural land form which must be overcome to reach the green; a large deep swale/hollow in front of the green.

The 5th at TOC is a par 5 of around 520 yards for us normal folks and I believe there is a tiger tee they use at the open at about 560 yards. So a drive of around 230-250 will leave the player around 220-200 to the front of the green. A green which is 101 yards long, so this hole can play many different lengths.

A view from just before the beginning of the fairway.

Spoiler:

There are two bunkers known as the spectacles, one 50 and the other 60 yards short of the green, which frame the green from the fairway. Beyond these bunkers lies the forced carry of the type I mentioned above. It is not clear from the fairway that a large swale exists between those bunkers and the start of the green but it does need to be carried or the shot hit with sufficient force to run through the swale.

Spoiler:

I believe it is fair to call this feature a forced carry as in order to complete the hole, assuming a regular line of play to the green, the player must cross this feature. Like water the player faces a penalty should they not make it across this feature, however with a deep swale the penalty is that the next shot is of increased difficulty and not of the penalty stroke variety. Also like water you must decide whether to take the risk of crossing the feature on the second shot or lay up. For those who layed up this feature continues provide interest as it makes the landing area you choose for the third shot of great importance. If the pin is at the front only the very best and most imaginative short game players will be able to get close to the pin. You will have to decide just how far over the swale to land the ball? The green is so long that you could play ultra safe but then of course three putts become a distinct possibility.


So we can see that the feature provides all the usual interest of a risk/reward shot but here is where this type of feature is superior to water, it also allows for the chance of a fun and interesting recovery shot should you find yourself in this "hazard".

Spoiler:

It is a very hard shot to get near a front pin and still a hard shot to get to any other pin position as it is almost certain you will be faced with a blind pitch/chip from an awkward lie.


The second example is the 350 yard 15th hole on the Jubilee course. Actually a very interesting hole for reasons other than deep swale in front of the green. Briefly the other feature that make this a great short par 4 is the tee shot which must challenge a bunker to the left in order to have a clear view of the green, due to a large dune short and left of the green which could obscure the view of the green.

Spoiler:

If you play safer and hit a wood or long iron from the tee you will be left with around 120 to 145 to the green, which depending on the wind could be almost any club.

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If you execute a well placed drive then a shot of 100 yards may be all you have to go, but whatever is left you will have to reach the green as the swale on this hole is deep and intimidating should you up in it.

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Another aspect to think about given the type of club you are hitting into the green and the fact the green is tilted to towards you is controlling spin to avoid spinning of the front of green.

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If your ball should fall short of the green it is quite possible that in firmer conditions it would fall all the way to the bottom of the swale. What ever happens it is an intimidating pitch back up onto the green.

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Go left in tricky conditions and the fast chip back onto the green will also have you thinking about the swale again, no doubt someone has scuttled one back down into it.

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Again the key to this type of features success is that it can both penalize the player but allow them redemption through a skilled recovery, this is just not possible with water hazards. Bunkers can of course do this to some degree but is variety not what makes any course great? To have a hole or two with something different is what makes a routing great.

An example of this on a par three is the 17th hole on Braid Hills No.1. A hole of around 165 - 170 from the back elevated tees. If you miss short you will roll a long way down the steep bank and be left with a very tricky chip back up onto the green.

Spoiler:

(apologies for poor picture)


It can also be utilized in the fairway. I am sure there are better examples but not in my photo collection. The 14th at Pasatiempo has a swale running across the fairway at around 250 for the normal daily tee. I think it would have to be deeper to fully capture what I believe the feature could offer.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

These features should offer the chance of a recovery but one which is sufficiently difficult enough to make you think about your shot which will challenge it. This should be through a combination of awkward stance/lie and a blind or semi blind approach. The one point I am unsure about is whether they have to be mown to fairway height all the time. If they are, a running shot through them is possible and at the moment that is why I think they should be mown to fairway height. My doubt is over whether having them as semi rough in some circumstances would provide a greater challenge on the recovery shots? If they are mown at fairway height and you can run it then suspense is guaranteed as you wait to see if the ball makes it up and out of the swale. I believe a lot of great shots in golf and the thrill attached to them is the amount of time you spend in suspense waiting to know the outcome of the shot. This feature can certainly provide this.

The swale is also infinitely more playable for the higher handicap player compared to carrying great swaths of water and still provides a challenge for players of all levels, what more could you want from a hazard?

I don't see anything wrong the forced carries to be honest. You can't expect every golfer to have the skills to reach greens in regulation, nor can you expect every course to be built with the least accomplished golfer in mind, if you did you'd have some really poor courses around. That's why people have handicaps to use their shots in such situation.
I would argue that the fifth on TOC is a good hole, certainly the best of the par 5's , not for the deep swale in front of the green which means that you can go for the green in two every time without there being a risk, it is a good hole because of how the hole appears to be far narrower than it is from the tee. You've got tons of room left that you can't see.
The 15th on the Jub is a cracker though, perhaps alongside the 8th on the Jubilee, and 17 on TOC the finest holes in all of St.Andrews.

What are your opinions on the 18th at Leven and the forced carry over the burn in front of the green, Mac? In my opinion it's one of the finest closing holes and ampitheatres of any golf course I've played with the exception of Carnoustie perhaps. People who can't carry it due to lack of length, seem to concede that fact without complaint and still agree it's a fantastic hole. Would you advocate removing the burn to make it more inclusive and risk ruining it for players who are long enough.

Super

I have not played leven since I was about 15 so any comments would be unfair. Although looking at it it seems to be the forced carry which is only about 10 yards wide. This means it is physically possible for all players to tackle it, even if that means laying up right in front of it.

The famous example being the 13th at Augusta, I think we both agree that is a great hole. I was more looking for examples of the deep swales I mentioned above and how the holes play.

Super the 8th on the Jubilee is ok but no where near as good as 15.

Actually not just deep swales, any other natural feature of the land that has to be crossed to complete the hole and that offers some of the challenges described above.

Mac - Thanks for sharing ... those are some great photos. I really do agree that this is probably an under-utlized forced carry feature for the reasons you mention ... it's not an "all or nothing" miss and players of all skill levels are left with options.

An example of a natural feature that needs to be crossed and still offers an alternative is the 16th hole at Merion East. (I wish I knew how to post pics ... so if anyone has them feel free to do so!) It's called the "Quarry Hole" since the second shot requires a forced carry over an old quarry. If you leave it in there you might get a lie or a shot, but if you don't want to take the quarry on, you can play to right of the hazard into what they call the "ladies aid" and what is also the 15th hole teeing area.

sorry i posted this on the bounce game sticky....



verging on being called a WUM here but I think there is a valid arguement for saying that if someone isn`t capable of reaching point B then they are a beginner that isn't ready to be on the course yet.

if you think that one is bad have a look at this one i played last week.

http://www.3deagleview.com/flashexp/concrawood_map_hole15.html

(take a look at 13th and 16th which are also quite bad)


unbelievable course and great value for money- its currently owned by the Irish government though after going into financial trouble.
My work society (quite poor standard) are thinking of playing it but realistically most members couldn't play it and enjoy it.

Sadly I have no photos of merion east that i can post. If you do however then all you have to do is upload them to something like photobucket or flickr and past the link into a post. You also have to use the image code around the link. so it will look something like [img]www.image1.com/img].

Davie may also be able to help you, as I think there is a v2 hosting site.



It just seems in a rush to alter what is already there a bunker or water are added as if that is the only obstacle at the architects disposal. Always opting for those options is hardly providing much variety.

I wonder if such features are avoided during the routing process as they are seen as undesirable for whatever reason?

McLaren wrote:

Davie may also be able to help you, as I think there is a v2 hosting site.

If you use the toolbar either on the full reply page, or the quick reply box, there is a button for "host an image" - this allows you to upload an image from your PC to server space and gives you the code you need to insert to make it appear here on the forum

Please remember also to put the [spoiler] tags around any pictures

Thanks Davie and Mac. I will figure this out yet. Promise.!

In the meantime a good friend of mine has a photo tour of Merion East (and many other clubs) and photos #190 and #191 really show this forced carry and how it can be played with the "ladies aid".

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/MerionEast/pages/page_191.html?

hendo85
Just had a look at the course you posted, must say it looks really stunning, I have now put it down as one of my must play courses

Shotrock

Those are some great photos. Were merion trying out a use open set up as that looks like some thick rough and a very skinny fairway?

Mac - Merion prides itself on having a championship ready course at almost all times. The rough is always that length and the fairways have been narrowing slightly as they prepare for the 2013 US Open. There is also a "West" course, which is significantly more member friendly. These photos almost never capture the elevation change, which is pretty significant.

OP i would highly recommend it. could take it in as part of a NI swing or even if you played a few courses around the Dublin area (i live in Portmarnock and its only an hour 15mins from here). its very reasonably priced too.
Merion looks like a top course- looks ready to host a US open tomorrow

Does anyone know of any holes where there is a sunken area of fairway where the next shot will be blind but long and short of the depression the view to the green is clear?







Shotrock

I can understand keeping the course well maintained at all times but to narrow the playing corridors like that on a daily basis must start to cause frustrations for the members?


It is a good point that photo's and tv pictures do not capture elevation change well. I think although all topography is flattened by film it is the subtleties of greens that are most lost in images.

McLaren wrote:
Does anyone know of any holes where there is a sunken area of fairway where the next shot will be blind but long and short of the depression the view to the green is clear?

15th at my club - named "Deception". Not so much a depression though as a fully sunken "ravine" - a drop of about 15 feet. Lay up to the top of the sunken area is about 200 yards - really big hitters can just about reach the end of the ravine and get up against the rising bank (probably about 320yds from the whites). Worst outcome is to JUST reach the edge and topple over onto the downward bank - leading to either a mountain goat shot or a restricted backswing

Davie

I was more thinking of a more gentle example where the sunken area is still fairway but the shot would be blind and on an uneven lie.

Although midget hells half acre examples like yours are also interesting.

The sunken area in my example IS fairway (apart from the banks up and down)

Ok I see, sounds like an interesting feature, do you know if it was dug out or was it a natural land form?

f&r. 4th hole. 455yard par 5.

from the tee there is a layup zone in the fairway to about 210yards. thereafter there is a dip about 40yards long (though undulating down to about 20). the bank is lined with gorse, so if going for it its a must carry. if you go for it and land in the dip there is no view of the green and about 200 yards to go. after that the fairway rises up to a higher level for another 40-50 yards - perfect landing area for a perfect drive, which will leave about 150-170 yards left into the green. there is another dip in the fairway after this landing zone, and then a deep hollow short and in front of the green ready to catch a shot that goes for it in two. the fairway leads up to the green from the right, so the strategic play requires two well struck long irons, the second away from the green to the right, and a flick onto a small green perched on a slippery slope.

i've never seen a sucessful attempt at the green from the first layup zone, or from the first dip, though if playing a 8 iron from the 'perfect landing' zone its possible to get on in two. you just need to be extremely long and even more accurate from the tee, and have some luck with the bounce. then you need to land your 2nd probably within a 5yard circle on the front left of the green to get it to hold.

http://www.fortrosegolfclub.co.uk/photo.htm
the photo is taken from the first layup. the dip is below, and the perfect landing zone for the long drive is to the right of the golfers. the green is directly infront of the lighthouse, but the fairway heads down toward the houses on the right.

great example of an extremely short par 5 that kicks the poopie out of you.

McLaren wrote:Ok I see, sounds like an interesting feature, do you know if it was dug out or was it a natural land form?

Don't know for sure but I'd assume it was an existing feature of the land. The course is 2 different 9s with the front nine being more typical parkland but the back 9 is in an area with (inland) sandbanks and dunes where birds nest. The feature may have been exaggerated when the course was built but I'd guess it was natural to begin with

Bam

I like the sound of that as long as balls that go into the dip are not lost. They key to the feature I believe should be used more often is that it does not have the disadvantages of water and players can show their recovery skills. There are no recovery skills that can do anything with a lost ball.

As golf courses are designed specifically for the male golfer, I don't like forced carries because of different clubbing required in the women's game.

Essentially, even if a decent female golfer can make the carry, she is then left with the problem of trying to stop a ball struck with a fairway wood as opposed to the male golfer who is likely only be hitting in mid to long iron at most (notwithstanding wind conditions). When one adds having to lay up with a shortish iron, it invariably makes for a poor golf hole.

The final hole at Leven is a case in point. Perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me ... again ... but, isn't the gap a lot wider (at its widest) with sleepers banking up the far side? Quite intimidating as I recall.

Gael, you are correct there are sleepers on the greenside bank, but the carry is not significant... maybe 15 yards including the banks of the burn. Here you go:

http://www.leven-links.com/course-guide.php

My club has a similar finishing hole... 440 yard par 4 with a moat surrounding the green. However the carry over the water is only 15 yards, so if a player is incapable of laying up and pitching over the hazard they cannot be considered a golfer!

raycastle ... having to lay up doesn't make for a good golf experience however good yer chipping!

Gael

Would you not then agree that the deep swale is preferable type of "forced" carry compared to water or bunkers?

Mac - Merion Easy (to me at least) would be too difficult a course for everyday member play. They are fortunate in that their West course (also a gem) is kept in more member-friendly conditions. Here's a look at that course: http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/MerionWest/index.html

Upon further thought, perhaps the approach at Merion East #18 fits the bill as a swale hazard to carry.

Shotrock

Yes, looking at this photo I would agree it was exactly what I had in mind.

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/MerionEast/pages/page_217.html

I know the green is on a much higher level than the fairway, unlike the example I gave but as long as the ball failing to carry the slope does not run all the way back down to the flat the recovery will be very similar.

The more I think about the combination of sight and lie is really much underused in place of bunkers and water. I think it takes a lot more imagination to spot a land shape that could act as a hazard rather than just sticking a bunker in.

McLaren wrote:Gael

Would you not then agree that the deep swale is preferable type of "forced" carry compared to water or bunkers?

Why? It just means there is no punishment for taking a shot on, such as the swale on the 5th at TOC. Nothing wrong with forced carries, if you don't have the skill to carry it then lay up and then hit over it. This is undoubtedly reflected in the handicap of the player. Once you start designing courses to cater mostly for the lack of ability of players then all you get is a course that appeals to choppers, the rest of us find them boring.

Super

As I said in the original post any feature should never be over used. It seems to me this type of feature is under used and provides a great alternative to the bunker/water default.

As geal said forced carries are of no joy to most golfers. Can you really say the swale on TOC 5th plays no part in your thoughts when approaching that green?

You can under use them aswell Mac.

As for the 5th at TOC, A decent drive means i'll usually have <250 yards into the green meaning that I can go for it all the time unless it's into a wind in which case I'll not even reach the swale anyway,
It isn't the swale which would stop me going for it but the rough on the right which can be deep and the bunkers on the left of the green that would stop me going for it, but there is such a distance between the two and teh green is so big that i'll always go for it if i've got less than 250, even if I've got more I'll still probably go for it, as there is no penalty for ending up in the swale.

I'm not sure I get your point though because if I hit the ball straight then the swale means I'll face no problems. If I hit a good second shot I'm on the green, if I don't I'm in the swale but still face a relatively easy chip onto the green to present a birdie opportunity. I'm not sure why you think it's such a good design feature because their is no risk/reward involved. It's no different to having a big flat area in front of the green.

In terms of other forced carries that involve bunkers and lakes. What's the big deal. If you can carry it then weigh up the pro's and cons and decide if it's worth the risk. If not then lay up, use your shot and take a net par. What's the fuss?

If you put a lake requiring a 100 yard carry in front of the 5th at TOC how would it improve the hole?

Of course in my view it wouldn't but I am keen to read what you think Super.

Well I'm not saying it would improve it either of course Mac, I like that hole the way it is because it often results in a birdie and at worst a par, however if you put in a lake 100 yards in front of the hole then it adds a risk/reward element that isn't provided by the swale. I can go for it and hope I make the green otherwise it will go in the lake and cost me a stroke. Or I can lay up short of the lake and hit the green in three regulation shots. That's pretty simple isn't it? The swale itself provides a safe fall back if my second shot doesn't make the green. I don't really understand why you see it as so great

As I've said before , it's the illusion of tightness off the tee that makes that an intimidating hole, not the swale. If i'm in the swale because I haven't made the green, it doesn't make any difference. All it means is i've got a chip instead of a putt.
I see what you are saying about forced carries, but that hole is perhaps not the best example, because it doesn't cause an issue on that hole.

A good par 5 should always have a risk/reward if it's reachable in two as the 5th on TOC is, there is no risk on that hole other than if you are really wayward and end up in the rough on the right, or the bunkers on the left, even then you've still got a good chance of making a regulation par.

As I said before, I dislike forced carries because they are primarily designed for male golfers. However, just to qualify that, I would just add that I am referring specifically to watery forced carries (to greens). I have no issues with swales or bunkers getting in the way as they offer the opportunity of recovery which I believe is the fairest way to play the game.

Then again Gael, Ladies tees are a bit farther forward and the vast majority of women will probably receive shots on those holes, so needn't consider the forced carry.
There is nothing in the game of golf which prescribes that every hole should be designed in order that everyone can reach it in regulation, and I think people are forgetting about that.

Super

As geal said, it is not really about getting a shot but rather the enjoyment of the game. If TOC and other courses of the time were not playable for all would the game even have gained enough popularity to survive?

Some of the inland efforts in the later half of the 19th cent had to be totally overhauled because the cross hazards were just not providing any interest. That and the dead flat land.

super_realist wrote:Then again Gael, Ladies tees are a bit farther forward and the vast majority of women will probably receive shots on those holes, so needn't consider the forced carry.
There is nothing in the game of golf which prescribes that every hole should be designed in order that everyone can reach it in regulation, and I think people are forgetting about that.

I fully accept that point S_R and certainly I think the 18th at Leven is a par five for the ladies. My point is that there are good pars and bad pars and this (because it was designed with purely male golfers in mind) is a poor (ladies') par five.

btw is it really that easy to get up and down from yon swale at the Old Course 5th? Let's review the evidence... large double green of which the half that contains the flag position for the 5th hole offers the perception of it being as flat as a pancake rendering any approach chip difficult to judge. That is of course assuming you're lucky enough to end up in the swale in the first place. As you've already alluded to, the rough cuts in quite sharply on the right but you must also agree surely the bunker to the left is also easily catchable if you fail to carry the swale. What I'm basically saying is that the swale also doubles up as a feeder to areas right and left should the golfer fail to carry the shot onto the green itself.

It's not that it's easy to get up/down from Gael, it's that you can still go for it knowing that the worst that can happen is that you end up in the swale, is that really a risk/reward or worth talking about in the envelope of forced carries, because it isn't a forced carry, it's not really any different to approaching any other hole where the worst that can happen is you go in a bunker, hit rough or simply miss the green.
Also Gael, I'd say that older gents and youths are also at a disadvantage, it's not a gender issue, but if we had to design a course in which every player and every standard was catered for we'd end up with something rubbish like Scoonie and golf would be boring. Part of the challenge of the game is overcoming the difficult parts of a course.


Mac, you're forgetting that TOC has been extensively overhauled over time, you seem to write as if it's in the original state and was somehow created a masterpiece, when it's been in constant development.
every course is playable for every player if you aren't concerned about your score. Remember the par of the course is basically the SSS. It's not the Standard Chopper Score (SCS) or the Standard Can't Hit it Far Enough To Hit The Green In Regulation Score (SCHIFETHTGIRS) is it? Not everyone is expected to go round in par, hit every green in regulation.
Bottom line is you'll never create a course which satifies the ability of all levels.
I'd say the Old Course is more inclusive because it's pretty easy offers fewer defences than others, but that doesn't make more difficult courses like the Jubilee or New bad courses because they are more difficult for the average golfer.

super_realist wrote:It's not that it's easy to get up/down from Gael, it's that you can still go for it knowing that the worst that can happen is that you end up in the swale, is that really a risk/reward or worth talking about in the envelope of forced carries, because it isn't a forced carry, it's not really any different to approaching any other hole where the worst that can happen is you go in a bunker, hit rough or simply miss the green.
Also Gael, I'd say that older gents and youths are also at a disadvantage, it's not a gender issue, but if we had to design a course in which every player and every standard was catered for we'd end up with something rubbish like Scoonie and golf would be boring. Part of the challenge of the game is overcoming the difficult parts of a course.

This is nonsense. What you are effectively saying is that it's not possible to design a risk/reward hole without water! Taking on that second shot at the 5th messes with the mind - big time - because the potential to run up a proverbial cricket score is definitely a possibility whereas the worst that can happen with a watery carry is a penalty shot which, in any event, may still not result in a bogey.

I'm not saying that at all, you could have gorse, bunkers, burns, walls, humps, cliffs, rough, heather, trees, bushes, dry ditches etc etc. There doesn't have to be water at all.
All I'm saying is that the 5th at TOC is not a shot where a forced carry plays too much on the mind because the worst that can happen is that you end up in the swale, or if you are really bad in the rough on the right or the bunkers on the left, but even if you are that wild, you should still be able to make the green and two putt- So what's playing on your mind? (Actually, thought you didn't need any help with the mental part of the game ). That means that instead of a birdie 4 you should do no worse than a par 5.
I'm sorry but I just don't see how you could run up a cricket score on that hole, unless you have chronic course management and expectations beyond your ability. The 5th on the Old is easily one of the most straight forward holes on the course, made difficult for those with poor course management.

THe 15th on the Jubilee is a far better example of a forced carry that doesn't involve water or bunkers as Mac has already said, and also the 9th on the Jubilee or 13th on the New, where swales are used to an effect where a forced carry is actually essential, that is because it's a par 4 and unless you hit the green you face a swale around about two thirds of the green.

I forgot to add that it's virtually a blind shot (at best, one can only see the top of the pin) and the golfer is aiming into the bodily equivalent of a neck.

S_R, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough, I've never seen any problem with the hole and see it as a good opportunity with a good drive to pick up a birdie.

As much as I love to read S_R harp on about his views on penal golf and his typical single figure golfer views on GCA it would be good to hear what others think. So lets not let S_R's views totally pollute this thread and get stuck in people.

On the topic of the Par 5 at TOC, fail to see how the swale on the 5th can be in anyway deemed a forced carry, because If you fail to carry it, you still have a shot at the green from cut grass. Your in no way penalised for failing to make the carry and will still have a relatively easy shot at birdie or worst par. Whenver i've played the hole, never seen any reason for not going at the green in 2, even if the wind blows and you come up short and end up in the swale all it means is a pitch up hill in to the wind hardly punishment for failing to make it to green on failing to carry the swale...

A forced carry is something that will penalise you for not making the carry classic example a real marmite of a hole 17th at Sawgrass... You have to carry the pond or your 3 off the tee or playing from a drop zone thats a forced carry. But also as SR points out it doesn't have to be water, it could easily be gorse or heather, which they have at a local course to me, gorse and heather placed in areas that you are forced to carry to hit the green.

You cannot always design every hole for every player sometimes you just have to play whats in front of you or lay up

Mav

As I said this feature is not a forced carry in the strictest sense of the term. The point was it crossed the full width of the hole and offered no alternate route, so similar in that sense to a forced carry.

It is possible that the 5th on TOC is not the best example so why not offer up some examples instead of getting fixated by the TOC.

I think you will agree that any blind recovery is tough, so add in an uneven lie and it is not as easy as you and SR seem to think.

Look at the photo of pasatiempo 15th, would you really say it would be an easy shot to hit a mid/long iron from some of the lie's you would get in that swale?

Or why not have a think about braid hills 17th, from down that slope a recovery is very hard to the shallow green.

You must have some examples as you seem to have played a fair bit around the world?

What makes good GCA? I don't suppose there's a single answer, but I'll give you few thoughts I have.

Shot Variety - Will players of varied abilities be challenged with a variety of shots, or will it be driver, short iron in, green sloping back to front all day?

Playability - Will the course challenge and (gasp: be fun) for golfers of different abilities. Notice I'm not suggesting all abilities.

Routing - Often overlooked in this day of cart golf, but a course with great routing is easy to get around, doesn't unnecessarily repeat and has a certain elegance (IMO).

Fidelity to Place - I enjoy a course that looks, feels and plays like it belongs there. Given the limitation of earth moving equipment (and time I suppose) most of the older classic courses have this nailed. Many newer courses -- particularly in Florida and resort areas (and my main gripe with the few Trump courses I've played) looked they were dropped on the place haphazardly. Always exceptions -- and I would put some of the very fun and quirky work of Mike Stranz in this category.

McLaren wrote:Mav

As I said this feature is not a forced carry in the strictest sense of the term. The point was it crossed the full width of the hole and offered no alternate route, so similar in that sense to a forced carry.

It is possible that the 5th on TOC is not the best example so why not offer up some examples instead of getting fixated by the TOC.

I think you will agree that any blind recovery is tough, so add in an uneven lie and it is not as easy as you and SR seem to think.

Look at the photo of pasatiempo 15th, would you really say it would be an easy shot to hit a mid/long iron from some of the lie's you would get in that swale?

Or why not have a think about braid hills 17th, from down that slope a recovery is very hard to the shallow green.

You must have some examples as you seem to have played a fair bit around the world?

Mac it is not I who is getting fixated with TOC, it was you who used that in the OP to highlight a possible forced carry so I responded accordingly. As for saying it's not as easy as SR and I think, in my opinion it is having played the hole many times, some times making the carry others not, I do not find anything challenging about that hole.

With regards Pastiempo and Braidshill i'm not saying that the recovery is easy on those holes at all, but it is not impossible and certainly are not penalised for it as if you had to take a drop you still have the chance of making the shot regardless of skill levels.

As for examples of forced carries, you could argue that where the ocean and rock face cuts into the 8th at Pebble is a focred carry across the ocean, or simply argue the designer used nature to aid in design features.

The lake in front of 16 at augusta, the pond at 15th augusta. All have to be carried to make the green. Even the 12th at Augusta, I use this course to highlight as everyone knows it well. You could basically argue any hole with water in front of the green is a forced carry. Or any hazard that it overly large is also a forced carry.. 11th at Sawgrass sproings to mind to with the approach there, but then again if your coming in with a wedge to a plateud green it shouldn't be an issue. Even the 17th at Eastlake where they have now moved the tee so that you have to carry upto 200yards of water from the tee to the fairway dependant on tee position.

How are thos for examples for forced carries and i've played all those holes with the exception of Augusta as I don't have the required family credentials or millions to grease the right palms for that one

Mav

You have missed the point of this thread somewhere along the way, I urge you to read over the op and comments from people other than you or SR. Then come back with something sensible.

Mac sensible you are discussing forced carries, so maybe you should actually open your ears up to the opinions of those other than people who are agreeing with you or does that not suit the way you like your threads to develop.

You asked for examples of forced carries so I gave you some, they are forced because if you fail to make the grade you are penalised that is what makes it a forced carry. Not some swale or hollow you still have a shot from.

So as for stating come back with something sensible how about instead taking the time to open your mind to debate that a thread evolves into how people perceive a forced carry themselves not just how you do

Mav

I asked for examples of the type of feature I described and provided photo examples of in the OP. As I said, I described them as "forced carries" but clearly they are not of the typical lake kind.

You seem to have taken this as me saying a swale is lake?????

I have no doubt many would consider a forced carry to be only the typical water/bunker variety. I however think that is wrong and that the kind I described above are under used and superior to the typical water kind.

McLaren wrote:Mav

I asked for examples of the type of feature I described and provided photo examples of in the OP. As I said, I described them as "forced carries" but clearly they are not of the typical lake kind.

You seem to have taken this as me saying a swale is lake?????

I have no doubt many would consider a forced carry to be only the typical water/bunker variety. I however think that is wrong and that the kind I described above are under used and superior to the typical water kind.

Mac I have not taken the word Swale to mean Lake if you read back through your own thread as you seem to think I have not, I actually described why I think a swale is not a forced carry due to the fact you still have a shot......

I also stated at one point a forced carry does not have to be a lake or a bunker, but can be heather, gorse or something akin to these as is the case at Kingshill a very good course local to me they have forced carries without using hazards but well placed gorse and heather....

So I gave examples of real forced carries something that has the potential to wreck a card if you fail, not something that gives you a shot from a natural swale even if slightly difficult still a shot at par nonetheless