Expanding the Six Nations into 2 competitions?

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Expanding the Six Nations into 2 competitions? Empty Expanding the Six Nations into 2 competitions?

Post by redlamb on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 12:37 pm

Some of us saw how close Romania pushed Scotland yesterday. In order to give countries like Romania and Georgia something greater to aim for should there be a play-off between the bottom side of the SN and the top side in the Division 1A of the European Nations Cup to determine promotion and relegation between those leagues?

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Post by ML on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 12:43 pm

It would be great to have that structure in both hemispheres, so that ALL the developing and tier 2 nations could get meaningful competition on a regular basis, but it comes down to money? Romania can't afford to finance pro Rugby in their own country, let alone get involved in yearly International competitions. Who would pay for that? Only England as a Union in the NH are truly solvent enough to afford to subsidise the costs of such a structure and the RU would refuse (quite rightly) to do so.

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Post by Irish Curry on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 2:05 pm

It would a lovely idea but lets face it would any of the existing want that to happen? Say wales for example finish bottom and lost this play-off then they would be playing teams like Georgia, Russia etc. That is good for no one at all. The best way to bring these teams forward is to give them a better club structure and reforming the amlin cup to include more teams from these countries.

International speaking a European championship or something along those lines with say 12 teams in 4 groups of 3 with the top two in each going in to 1/4 finals with the bottom teams playing out a shield competition.

At some stage something will happen with the format of the 6N but not for the moment. Even then it would much likely be expanded with more times but not with relegation or promotion.
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Post by Thespacedragon on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 2:13 pm

It could be worth looking at a European tournament every 4 years starting in 2013 but it would only be of benefit to the smaller European teams. The 6N teams don't really need it and maybe they could play their A teams instead which would really benefit Wales as we have many players lacking the interntional experience.

It would be a step up from the Rabies Pro12 league but not the massive step up to full international. Players like Tovey and Tupuric etc. would benefit from these type of games and then if good enough, when the chance of playing for Wales arrives, they will be in a better position.

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Post by HammerofThunor on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 2:15 pm

Thespacedragon wrote:It could be worth looking at a European tournament every 4 years starting in 2013 but it would only be of benefit to the smaller European teams. The 6N teams don't really need it and maybe they could play their A teams instead which would really benefit Wales as we have many players lacking the interntional experience.

It would be a step up from the Rabies Pro12 league but not the massive step up to full international. Players like Tovey and Tupuric etc. would benefit from these type of games and then if good enough, when the chance of playing for Wales arrives, they will be in a better position.

In a Lions year? Best players would be away so it would be closer to A teams.

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Post by Irish Curry on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 2:36 pm

[quote="HammerofThunor"][quote="Thespacedragon"]It could be worth looking at a European tournament every 4 years starting in 2013 but it would only be of benefit to the smaller European teams. The 6N teams don't really need it and maybe they could play their A teams instead which would really benefit Wales as we have many players lacking the interntional experience.

It would be a step up from the Rabies Pro12 league but not the massive step up to full international. Players like Tovey and Tupuric etc. would benefit from these type of games and then if good enough, when the chance of playing for Wales arrives, they will be in a better position.[/quote]

In a Lions year? Best players would be away so it would be closer to A teams.[/quote]

I think your on to something there...
France would have to play there 'A' team to otherwise they would just run away with it.
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 2:38 pm

There is a 6 Nations B Tournament but it gets very little, in fact no tv coverage publicity.

I have suggested in the past that maybe these games could be used at curtain raisers to the main 6 Nations that way they may get % of gate and some tv exposure etc.
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Post by aitchw on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 3:00 pm

Much a s I would like to see more opportunities for the lower tier nations it is almost impossible to see how you can involve the top tier in it. There just isn't the space on the calendar. Players are already playing too much rugby and players and clubs are suffering with the present international fixtures.

I know we shouldn't just leave them to fend for themselves but as it is now, every four years they have the chance to compete at a World cup. They have the qualifiers to test themselves against the best of the rest, so to speak, between times. Maybe in the short term the IRB could fund an invitational Barbarians type team to play twice a year visiting a different country each time between World Cups.

The grass roots development of the game in these countries is much more important right now and maybe the occasional visits would be a help rather than a hinderance.

With the growth worldwide of our game the next ten years is going to have to see some big changes. Not sure the IRB is up to the task.

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Post by Shifty on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 7:10 pm

Personally I think that to have promotion and relegation the 6 Nations countries would have to vote it through by a majority. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that any team could get relegated so why take the risk?

You only have to see what happened the the Celtic football teams since the Home Nations tournament split up, they lost their competitive edge and all of them have gone down the rankings.

Personanally I think there should be a European Cup running parallel to the Lions tour, so the 6 Nations B and C teams could play slightly weakened 6 Nation sides.

Qualification could be decided by ranking in the 6 Nations tournaments or IRB world ranking.

Pot 1
England, France, Ireland, Wales

Pot 2
Scotland, Italy, Georgia, Romania

Pot 3
Portugal, Russia, Spain, Ukraine

Pot 4
Belgium, Moldova, Poland, Czech Republic

Pool 1
1
2
3
4

Pool 2
1
2
3
4

Pool 3
1
2
3
4

Pool 4
1
2
3
4

It could also be a short tournament, pool teams play each other once (3 games). the winners of each pool go straight into Semi finals, then into the final or 3/4 place play off.

then all the pool second placed teams go into semi finals, and play a final or 3/4 play off, etc, etc.

Basically every country would play only 5 games and every country in the tournament would have a ranking of between 1 and 16.
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Post by Irish Curry on Sun 11 Sep 2011, 9:20 pm

Would the pot 4 teams really be able to compet though I think they would just get wiped off the field by the better teams in all honesty.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Sep 2011, 1:29 pm

The problem with promotion and relegation is very simple...

Do you honestly think one of the 6n teams are gonna agree to risk demotion and miss out on the big money generated through a 6n..

Non of Scotland, Wales, England, Ireland, France or Italy will agree to that!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 12 Sep 2011, 1:30 pm

PS...but i do agree to brining in Romania, Georgia etc.

Only viable option might be extending it and making it every two years instead of 1 year...making it more like Footballs European Championship.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 12 Sep 2011, 1:41 pm

I have no problem accepting others into the tournament, although in doing this It will have a massive impact in European and domestic leagues.

This will probably neccesitate a bi-annual tournament. I for one would not like to see that. The 6N is the highlight of rugby for me, mainly because of the banter and the bragging rights amongst the fans.

Furthermore with every northern hemisphere team losing out on international test matches will be prett detrimental.
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth on Mon 12 Sep 2011, 3:39 pm

I am not sure if this was voted in or not, or wither it was even discussed. Could the winner of the 6 Nations B not be granted three games during the following years AIs. All the 6 Nations teams usually play one game against "lesser" opposition as it is, would the interest for Wales v Romania or Scotland v Georgia be any less than we currently have for the likes of Wales v Fiji or Scotland v Canada?

Give them 3 games, England, Italy and Ireland one year and France, Scotland and Wales the next.

I think this would be a good start in integrating these sides. It does not affect the 6 Nations, the home Unions won't be losing much cash and the "minnow" nations get a chance to prove themselves outside of the World Cup on a bigger stage than they normally get.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 12 Sep 2011, 4:03 pm

I would suggest the best way to increase access is to have a preliminary tournament in the Autumn from which to select initially one side (this could be expanded) to add to the following 6 Nations.

The fixture list could be expanded to always allow for there to be a 7 Nations, with the identity of the 7th Nation identified the prior November based on form.

It would be a slow integration process, but if one side consistently qualified, then we could add that side and work towards including another.

The long-term outcome would likely be a recalibration of the rugby calendar, but I think that's a better outcome can tearing up the traditional 6 Nations format. Not sure a tournament without Scotland v England or Wales v England would be the same.

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