Debate of the Day - Chris Jericho

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Post by liverbnz on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 10:50 am

Was he the right choice as the 1st Undisputed Champion? Or was he just booked incorrectly?

What an achievement. To beat 2 of the biggest stars in the history of professional wrestling in one night, one straight after the other, for the 2 greatest accolades, from 2 of the biggest companies in the business, was a great endorsement from management in Y2J. They could have went for the safe bet of The Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin. They could have opted for the freshly turned heel Undertaker. He'd been there 11 years afterall and only had 2 title reigns - one which lasted only a few days. There was also Kurt Angle, a man that had gotten over super quick. If they had have given him one last push, this could have cemented him as the man to build the company around for the next 10 years.

As it was, they went with Chris Jericho. He'd had quite a successful 2 years in the WWF. He was a multi-time intercontinental champion. He also had a taste of tag team gold with Chris Benoit. He'd had a MOTY candidate at the 2001 Royal Rumble with the crippler, opened Wreslemania, fueded with HHH, Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock which seen him win the WWF title on RAW in early 2000 (decision reversed later in the night, so reign is not recognised) and the WCW heavyweight title in the Autumn of 2001.

The title reign itself included 2 unclean wins over The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin, playing 2nd fiddle to Stephanie McMahon (and a bloody dog) and a Wrestlemania match that was overshadowed, and quite often forgotten.

So was the Man of 1004 Holds the right man for the WWE to put the straps on?


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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:14 am

I always felt that they rushed thae whole undisputed title angle, Vince McMahon should have given Hogan or Goldberg as much money as they wanted to come to the WWF in 2001 and hold the WCW title until WrestleMania where they should have faced WWF Champion Stone Cold Steve Austin where Austin should have unified the two highest belts in American Pro Wrestling

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Post by liverbnz on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:22 am

That's an idea I'd never thought of before, but it's a very good one. It wasn't long after that Hogan arrived in the WWF. I think Vince even contacted Hogan that very month in which Jericho won the titles. I think that Vince just had it in mind for a while that Jericho was the man for the future - and his RAW title win in 2000 was the tester for that. But as with most champions of Jericho's size and build, Vince was never really convinced enough to follow through.

I'd always thought it would have been better going to Kurt Angle, turn him face and have him take on the Streak at Wrestlemania, although the result of their match I'm undecided on.

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Post by imprettyfly on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:27 am

liverbnz wrote:
So was the Man of 1000 Holds the right man for the WWE to put the straps on?

1004 - Dean Malenko never was undisputed champ! thumbsup

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Post by liverbnz on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:31 am

imprettyfly wrote:
liverbnz wrote:
So was the Man of 1000 Holds the right man for the WWE to put the straps on?

1004 - Dean Malenko never was undisputed champ! thumbsup

Duly edited Very Happy

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:42 am

Reading Jericho's book even he was shocked they went for him

I'm fully supportive of Jericho being an Undisputed Champion but feel it would have been better and less pressure for him to be the second or third Undisputed Champion

The WWF Champion vs The WCW Champion in a winner takes all should have been a match that defined and finished an era and kicked in a brand new one

Well that's my view anyway

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Post by Don Caboose on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:49 am

I've always wondered why they didn't hold it off until Wrestlemania. (Note how there isn't an undisputed title belt until after Wrestlemania).

At the same time, with HHH set to return, Flair and Vince building into a rivalry and Hogan's imminent arrival, using the unification matches to boost the December PPV was an understandable decision.

However while I have nothing against Jericho, Austin really should have been the man to claim the first Undisputed World Title. He was after all formerly a WCW and ECW wrestler (like Jericho) but crucially also the man who helped the WWF overtake WCW more than anyone.

Saying that, Jericho pretty much made a Main Event career out of boasting he beat Rock and Austin in a single night, so you can't argue with the results.
(Apart from the godawful HHH-Steph (w/ Jericho) angle).

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Post by imprettyfly on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:53 am

I was so compelled to correct you that I had to sign up to post!! Hug

Anyway, I think that it was good that he won "The Big One" otherwise he would have just been the "Almost Guy" for the rest of his career, and he never would have had the same impact when he come back.

But poorly booked? I would say so. For all the Defences that he had I actually think that he should have retained against 3H... Out of the Rock, Stone Cold and HHH - The Wrestlemania match against Trips, I genuinely thought at that time Jericho could have and should have beaten him clean at which everyone would have stood up and took notice. I also think that the crowd at that time would have brought a Jericho retain, much more than if his opponent was one of the other two and he beat them clean.

Hopefully makes sense... Headscratch

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Post by nasisillmatic on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 12:24 pm

I agree with Gaffer's idea 100%, that would have been immense.

It did do wonders for Jericho's career in the long run but I think Austin was the right choice. He could have even held the Undisputed title before dropping it to Brock at Summerslam.

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Post by Brady12 on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 1:28 pm

the-gaffer wrote:I always felt that they rushed thae whole undisputed title angle, Vince McMahon should have given Hogan or Goldberg as much money as they wanted to come to the WWF in 2001 and hold the WCW title until WrestleMania where they should have faced WWF Champion Stone Cold Steve Austin where Austin should have unified the two highest belts in American Pro Wrestling

Really good idea... But 'money' dictated this... Guys didn't need to work because there multi million dollar contracts were being paid in full.... Just wait & negotiate a huge contract when your current contract is up

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Post by theundisputedY2D2 on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 1:38 pm

Chris Jericho should never have been made the first ever Undisputed champion, that honour should have gone to Stone Cold Steve Austin. Jericho's subsequent run showed that to be the case. Yes, he was booked poorly but some of the blame should also be apportioned to Y2J. He never once convinced me that he was THE MAN, he still carried himself like a mid-carder.


Gaffer's idea about bringing in Hogan or Goldberg would have been awesome. Pity WWE didn't splash the cash around this time because Goldberg was collecting about 90% on his WCW contract ($2 million a year) from AOL/Time Warner and they didn't want to upset their roster by making him a huge money offer. Thing is, if they'd brought him in at that time he'd have been a bargain at twice the figure he was paid by WCW.

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 1:38 pm

Oh I totally get that Brady but if Vince offered either Hogan or Goldberg in excess of say $1m with the gaurantee of a major World Title run and the Main Event of WrestleMania then I think a deal could have been struck

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Post by Mr H on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 1:40 pm

I dont think it was the right idea to put the straps on Jericho. Fair play to him, but i dont think his stock was big enough to give a big match feel whenever he defended it, especially at Wrestlemania X8 vs Triple H. If it was a match between two of Austin, Rock or Triple H at Mania it would have felt more significant than it did with Jericho involved. I just didnt find it very believable and i look back at it now and the Undisputed Championship doesnt seem much of a big deal to me.

Which is the same reason they should never let a young upstart end the streak because in 10 years time they might fail to fulfil their potential and the streak will be tarnished by it being ended by someone who ultimately failed to hit the big time.

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Post by liverbnz on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 1:55 pm

Brady12 wrote:
the-gaffer wrote:I always felt that they rushed thae whole undisputed title angle, Vince McMahon should have given Hogan or Goldberg as much money as they wanted to come to the WWF in 2001 and hold the WCW title until WrestleMania where they should have faced WWF Champion Stone Cold Steve Austin where Austin should have unified the two highest belts in American Pro Wrestling

Really good idea... But 'money' dictated this... Guys didn't need to work because there multi million dollar contracts were being paid in full.... Just wait & negotiate a huge contract when your current contract is up

I think at that stage, Hogan's old WCW contract was up and so gaffer's idea was very feasible.

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Post by MtotheC on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 2:21 pm

I've always been a big Jericho mark and posted my love for all things Y2J many times in the past. I believe he has it all but looking back his undisputed title win Seamed very rushed and his subsequent run with the strap is probably viewed as a massive flop by the wwe and fans alike. I remember the non title win on raw after earl hebner screwed HHH with a quick count and i was going absolutely mental only for the decision to be overturned later that night cue a very upset young mtothec! In retrospect Jericho was not the right man to take the first undisputed title honour, but fair play to vince for going with something fresh and attempting to make a new big star, IMO Jericho has stood the test of time and gone on to prove he's a top performers who will go down in history as one of the best ever!

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Post by Brady12 on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 5:11 pm

the-gaffer wrote:Oh I totally get that Brady but if Vince offered either Hogan or Goldberg in excess of say $1m with the gaurantee of a major World Title run and the Main Event of WrestleMania then I think a deal could have been struck


I'm sure Big Lazy Kevin Nash was torn between what to do


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Post by talkingpoint on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 5:11 pm

I'm going to say yes. Why? Because Jericho deserved it. Ok Rock and Austin were bigger draws but it was an affirmation of how talented Jericho was. He was in some respects the 'little man', the 'underdog' because he was 5'11, he didn't have the physical presence of Austin or Rock but he was just as talented - if not more so - than either Rock or Austin. Jericho is one of the greatest all round performers of all time. Secondly, look at what Jericho has been able to do for the WWE since - he has put over so much talent and helped create new stars, kept the tag titles and IC title relevant and created one of the best gimmicks (best in the world) off of the back of his undisputed title run. Jericho has proven extremely influential - even the Miz has copied his style. So on the whole I think giving him the first ever undisputed title worked out great for the WWE.

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Post by Brady12 on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 10:17 pm

Mr H wrote:I dont think it was the right idea to put the straps on Jericho. Fair play to him, but i dont think his stock was big enough to give a big match feel whenever he defended it, especially at Wrestlemania X8 vs Triple H. If it was a match between two of Austin, Rock or Triple H at Mania it would have felt more significant than it did with Jericho involved. I just didnt find it very believable and i look back at it now and the Undisputed Championship doesnt seem much of a big deal to me.

Which is the same reason they should never let a young upstart end the streak because in 10 years time they might fail to fulfil their potential and the streak will be tarnished by it being ended by someone who ultimately failed to hit the big time.

Totally agree... Jericho deserved eventually to be elevated to the main event level but this accolade wasn't befitting of him

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:15 pm

I think there was three guys in the WWF at the time who deserved it more, Austin, Rock or Triple H, obviously HHH was injured but I still really don't get the logic in doing it when they did it, Jericho could quite easily have been the WWF or WCW champion for a good few months all the way to The Rumble, gave him a decent run with one of the belts instead of the crazy hotshot booking they where doing at the time.

I've just always felt that if the WCW title should have been on the line at the 2002 Royal Rumble with it being the tenth anniversary of the WWF Title being on the line at the Rumble

I'd also have used this event to re-introduce Hogan at #30, completely with the red and yellow and Real American blaring out the speakers, Hogan comes to the ring all very face like and ends up in the final 2 with HHH, after a few respectful tie ups and respectful nods they get into it again and as Hogan is on the ropes Hall and Nash come through the crowd, as HHH tries to fight them off Hogan throws him out and wins the Rumble and the WCW belt, Hogan does the nWo turn all over again.

I wouldn't expect this to be a total re-work, just an evil genius playing everyone to take back what's rightfully his... the WCW Title, earlier that night I'd have had Austin go over Jericho for the WWF title

That takes out the worry of what happens to the Rumble winner at WrestleMania, and would set up the winner takes all WWF Champion Steve Austin vs WCW Champion Hulk Hogan Undisputed World Title match

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Post by Ent on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:26 pm

Nice idea gaffer but do we not then lose icon vs icon from wm18 (apologies if I've the year wrong again).

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Post by Kay Fabe on Thu 24 Nov 2011, 11:32 pm

Yeah that would be a casualty, I do think a motivated Steve Austin would have worked just as well, of course to preserve that match you could have Rock as WWF Champion facing Hogan rather than Austin

I just feel that since it's to unify the titles that Austin is the proper choice for that particular match

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Post by Brady12 on Fri 25 Nov 2011, 12:44 am

the-gaffer wrote:I think there was three guys in the WWF at the time who deserved it more, Austin, Rock or Triple H, obviously HHH was injured but I still really don't get the logic in doing it when they did it, Jericho could quite easily have been the WWF or WCW champion for a good few months all the way to The Rumble, gave him a decent run with one of the belts instead of the crazy hotshot booking they where doing at the time.

I've just always felt that if the WCW title should have been on the line at the 2002 Royal Rumble with it being the tenth anniversary of the WWF Title being on the line at the Rumble

I'd also have used this event to re-introduce Hogan at #30, completely with the red and yellow and Real American blaring out the speakers, Hogan comes to the ring all very face like and ends up in the final 2 with HHH, after a few respectful tie ups and respectful nods they get into it again and as Hogan is on the ropes Hall and Nash come through the crowd, as HHH tries to fight them off Hogan throws him out and wins the Rumble and the WCW belt, Hogan does the nWo turn all over again.

I wouldn't expect this to be a total re-work, just an evil genius playing everyone to take back what's rightfully his... the WCW Title, earlier that night I'd have had Austin go over Jericho for the WWF title

That takes out the worry of what happens to the Rumble winner at WrestleMania, and would set up the winner takes all WWF Champion Steve Austin vs WCW Champion Hulk Hogan Undisputed World Title match

I'm sure there's booking flaws somewhere in that lot (can't remember that era vividly) but on paper that sounds about as mouth watering as fantasy booking can possibly get .... On question though how does mania play out? Like Hogan Rock with Hogan losing but turning face?

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Post by Kay Fabe on Fri 25 Nov 2011, 1:32 am

Well I think there is a couple of ways they could go here depending on the plans they had for Hogan after WrestleMania

1 - They could have stuck to the face/heel rule, had Austin go over him clean and keep Hogan heel for a potential SummerSlam feud with The Rock

2 - The nWo come out during the match to help Hogan and to intimidate Austin, he'd naturally take out either Hall or Nash, while his back's turned Hogan would look to get an advantage, this would bring out Vince McMahon who wouldn't want to see the titles unified in WCW's favour, McMahon would try to assist Austin but after the previous year I'd see Austin telling him to shove his help up his ass and he doesn't need or want his help and stunners him, while the ref is trying to revive McMahon the one of Nash/Hall Austin didn't take out would get involved again, only this time after seeing Austin act in an honourable way, Hogan decides to do the same and pulls Nash/Hall off Austin, when they get in his face he lays them out, by this point he's turning face in front of te crowds eyes mid match, then for the next 5 minutes both would do a few nearlies before they take it home and Austin wins the match and the crown of being the first Undisputed World Champion, in shades of 1990 and to fully endorse himself as a babyface you could have him hand the titles to Austin and even have Austin throw him a beer

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Post by nasisillmatic on Fri 25 Nov 2011, 9:47 am

the-gaffer wrote:Well I think there is a couple of ways they could go here depending on the plans they had for Hogan after WrestleMania

1 - They could have stuck to the face/heel rule, had Austin go over him clean and keep Hogan heel for a potential SummerSlam feud with The Rock

2 - The nWo come out during the match to help Hogan and to intimidate Austin, he'd naturally take out either Hall or Nash, while his back's turned Hogan would look to get an advantage, this would bring out Vince McMahon who wouldn't want to see the titles unified in WCW's favour, McMahon would try to assist Austin but after the previous year I'd see Austin telling him to shove his help up his ass and he doesn't need or want his help and stunners him, while the ref is trying to revive McMahon the one of Nash/Hall Austin didn't take out would get involved again, only this time after seeing Austin act in an honourable way, Hogan decides to do the same and pulls Nash/Hall off Austin, when they get in his face he lays them out, by this point he's turning face in front of te crowds eyes mid match, then for the next 5 minutes both would do a few nearlies before they take it home and Austin wins the match and the crown of being the first Undisputed World Champion, in shades of 1990 and to fully endorse himself as a babyface you could have him hand the titles to Austin and even have Austin throw him a beer

I would have loved for this to happen. I still don't get why they rushed the title unification just a month after the brand battle ended.

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Post by Brady12 on Sat 26 Nov 2011, 12:09 am

the-gaffer wrote:Well I think there is a couple of ways they could go here depending on the plans they had for Hogan after WrestleMania

1 - They could have stuck to the face/heel rule, had Austin go over him clean and keep Hogan heel for a potential SummerSlam feud with The Rock

2 - The nWo come out during the match to help Hogan and to intimidate Austin, he'd naturally take out either Hall or Nash, while his back's turned Hogan would look to get an advantage, this would bring out Vince McMahon who wouldn't want to see the titles unified in WCW's favour, McMahon would try to assist Austin but after the previous year I'd see Austin telling him to shove his help up his ass and he doesn't need or want his help and stunners him, while the ref is trying to revive McMahon the one of Nash/Hall Austin didn't take out would get involved again, only this time after seeing Austin act in an honourable way, Hogan decides to do the same and pulls Nash/Hall off Austin, when they get in his face he lays them out, by this point he's turning face in front of te crowds eyes mid match, then for the next 5 minutes both would do a few nearlies before they take it home and Austin wins the match and the crown of being the first Undisputed World Champion, in shades of 1990 and to fully endorse himself as a babyface you could have him hand the titles to Austin and even have Austin throw him a beer

Top notch

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Post by Kay Fabe on Sat 26 Nov 2011, 12:30 am

Cheers, the thing is though that wasn't all that difficult to come up with, all the tools where there, as mad mas McMahon is he does usually have a long term vision even if he changes his mind on things frequently so you've got to ask, why Jericho and why so quickly

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Post by theundisputedY2D2 on Sat 26 Nov 2011, 1:25 pm

the-gaffer wrote:Cheers, the thing is though that wasn't all that difficult to come up with, all the tools where there, as mad mas McMahon is he does usually have a long term vision even if he changes his mind on things frequently so you've got to ask, why Jericho and why so quickly

Well in Jericho's second book he says that he got told by Steve Austin like a week before Vengeance that he was going over Stone Cold in the final match but then later Kurt Angle said to Chris Jericho that HE'D been told he was going to win the Undisputed title. If that's true then do you reckon it was a case of WWE wanting to put the Undisputed title on one of the underdogs just to make things unpredictable but they weren't sure which one?

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Post by Kay Fabe on Sat 26 Nov 2011, 6:16 pm

I'm not sure, good chance of it to be fair, reading Jericho's book, it never sounded like Vince was ever that high on him at that time

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