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Live Baits

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Post by sherm Mon 09 Jan 2012, 12:38 pm

Do you guys agree with there use in fishing?
Definately a topic that gives the anti`s plenty of amunition.
I personally dont really use them as there not really suited to the water`s I fish, although have used them in the past for both pike and perch with some success.
So over to you guys, do the benefits gained from using live baits outweigh the bad publicity it attracts or visa versa?
Should it be banned? or encouraged?

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 09 Jan 2012, 1:13 pm

Hi Sherm

I have used them in the past, although I don't like doing it, and probably won't do it again.

I used live roach when fishing for pike, and noticed that I caught far more jack pike in that manner, with my biggest pike being caught using deadbaits bought from a shop, funnily enough (sprats, mackerel).

Overall, I'd say it is rather barbaric on the balance of things, so as I said above it isn't something I'll rush to do again, particularly given that it didn't yield huge results. I'm generally concerned for the welfare of the fish before my own catches, so in that respect I wouldn't like to use a method that harms fish just to add a few lbs to my P.B, if that makes sense.

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Post by sherm Mon 09 Jan 2012, 2:06 pm

I quite agree Fists, most of my big pike have come to a deadbait, it`s also eay to mimic a live fish with a dead one with a bit of practice.
So would you ban it to stop the anti`s using is as a stick to beat us with? or leave it as it is for people to make there own decision

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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 09 Jan 2012, 2:12 pm

I certainly wouldn't be upset if live baiting was banned. As you rightly say, those against fishing can say 'how do you care about the fish if you're using some of them to stick hooks through whilst they're still alive, ready to be eaten by a bigger fish'.

When you look at it like that, they'd have a point, and it is barbaric, so I guess it should probably be banned given that deadbaits are just as effective in my view (maybe not for perch, but certainly for pike).

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Post by barrystar Mon 09 Jan 2012, 4:21 pm

I've never used livebait, but would you class a worm as livebait, because I would not want to ban that?

I'm going pike fishing on 28.01, I am planning to use a mixture of spinning and fly fishing. Where I'm going "flying C's" are pretty popular along with clunky hinged plugs.

I'd welcome any alternative suggstions, and in particular for fly-fishing - would people use a floating line or something else (I have every sort of sinking line to meet any suggestion), and do people like popper flies?
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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 09 Jan 2012, 4:30 pm

No, wouldn't class a worm as livebait, Barry. Only fish/frogs etc, in this instance.

I really don't know about fly fishing for pike, I'm afraid. Spinning for pike is great fun, you get some excellent, aggressive takes.

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Post by barrystar Mon 09 Jan 2012, 5:34 pm

What sort of lures do you use for spinning. I will be fishing in a chalk stream which has the odd deep hole and a few distinct pike lies.
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Post by Fists of Fury Mon 09 Jan 2012, 9:09 pm

Is it clear water?

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Post by sherm Mon 09 Jan 2012, 10:21 pm

some great points thanks guys, not sure I agree that worms are the same as live baits, but im sure there are a few tree huggers ou there that would argue the toss.
Depending on the depth flow etc, id take a variety of lures and from what i know of fly fishing it`s the same principle. 20/30 mins in each swim at most and move on,, but as i havn`t ventured to the fly yet i cant be sure, the chalkl streems i fish very rarley go above 3 or 4ft deep so I`m forced to use surface lures for the most part

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Post by sherm Mon 09 Jan 2012, 10:23 pm

As a follow up, most of my surface lures I use I have modified, as i think they are to predictable, litlle nicks here and there in the front just give it a slight unpredictability, but as always with fishing it could just be a confidence thing

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Post by barrystar Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:31 am

Thanks for the interest both of you - it is very clear water. Mostly we'll be fishing pretty small lies in water between about 4 and maybe 10-12 feet deep. It is not too weedy. The water is pretty carefully keepered trout water so the pike are the exception rather than the rule and it's a case of trying about 15 lies/swims where pike have been seen during the course of work in the winter.
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:36 am

A small floating plug may be a decent idea then, Barry. Either that or a very light spinner. You may catch trout on a small spinner, though, don't know whether you're trying to avoid that or not.

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Post by barrystar Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:43 am

On the livebait - it does seem pretty tough to festoon a creature like a frog or a fish with hooks in the hope that it will end up in the jaws of your chosen quarry. I would prefer to use an alternative method for sure, but I would not like to ban it from a fisherman's armoury, merely instead to promote an unwritten 'code' that it is resorted to with discretion when it offers the best chance of catching a fish by some distance and/or when there is a good reason for catching a fish or members of a particular population of fish - i.e. hunger or pest control.
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Post by barrystar Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:45 am

Fists of Fury wrote:A small floating plug may be a decent idea then, Barry. Either that or a very light spinner. You may catch trout on a small spinner, though, don't know whether you're trying to avoid that or not.

Last time we used floating plugs that dive on the retrive or flying C's - we caught only 3, but I think that was our inexperience and not the gear.

I hooked 4 trout too but managed to release them without much bother. It felt funny catching a trout on a spinner on what is normally upstream fly water only.
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 10 Jan 2012, 9:47 am

Yeah they're generally always lip hooked, the trout, so it is no bother to get them out and back in again, plus they add a bit of sport given their fighting nature!

3 pike isn't a bad return when spinning, mate, I'd be happy with that. Little subtleties like a faster turn of the reel thrown in amongst a slow retrieval, or likewise a stop, followed by a jerk are all effective, and you learn what works best after a few outings.

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Post by sherm Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:33 pm

Sometimes the trouble with trout waters is, I still thinmk there are a small amount of people who still think there doing good by throwing the pike they catch in a bush. when in reality it only encourages a population boom of jack pike..

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:39 pm

Totally agree, sherm, there are some pretty clueless individuals that believe pike to be the scourge of other fish. They're not mindless murderers, and do only eat when they're hungry.

As you say, leaving pike in a place can actually reduce the number of small pike, whilst giving people an opportunity to land the odd specimen or two! Likewise, they're a good overall control on all of the species there, meaning that it's unlikely you'll see one species begin to take over.

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Post by sherm Tue 10 Jan 2012, 1:46 pm

you certainly wont see any diseased or injured fish if there is a good head of pike in the water, one of natures way of maintaining balance..

I have a lure i brought in Sweden that sinks at first then slowly rises as you retrieve it, really good for dropping in holes and getting under over hanging trees, couldnt tell you the name as it was in swedish and i threw the box away, they sell them in most rural petrol stations over there

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 10 Jan 2012, 2:03 pm

Excellent first point. The overall health of a fishery improves vastly if pike are present.

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Post by barrystar Wed 11 Jan 2012, 5:49 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Excellent first point. The overall health of a fishery improves vastly if pike are present.

Essentially that must be right, but there's always a different balance to be struck. If man has aready intervened substantially into nature, which is the unfortunate reality with many trout waters, then it's not surprising if pike are not particularly welcome, particularly big pike.
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Post by barrystar Mon 30 Jan 2012, 10:15 am

Red letter day - 4 pike 17lbs down to 2lbs, one on spun deadbait, one on a plug, one on a flying "C", and one on a fly.

We now have a fridge full of beautiful pike fillets and a huge pot of delicious fish stock as well as masses of meat for Quenelles. Yummy.
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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 31 Jan 2012, 2:09 pm

:O You heathen!

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Post by barrystar Tue 31 Jan 2012, 6:11 pm

I thought you'd like that.

You ought to try Pike one day, it's delicious and not one ounce of the fish has gone to waste. My son even took some jaw bones into school to show in the science lesson.
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Post by Guest Tue 31 Jan 2012, 6:58 pm

i would only use live baits when sea fishing.

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Post by Fists of Fury Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:00 pm

Why's that, CF? If it is barbaric in one surely it is in another, too?

Barry, you probably know from our talks on here that I'm completely against the killing of anything that is unnecessary (i.e. not one of these vegans that wages war against farmers etc but someone that thinks there is enough killing of fish, animals etc without me getting involved too, if that makes sense), so I won't be trying Pike. I heard it was quite a bony fish, though.

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Post by barrystar Wed 01 Feb 2012, 9:59 am

FoF I have worked out where you stand from your posts - I am someone who has always liked foraging for the pot, subject of course to the rarity of the species being hunted and wanting a clean quick kill. The way I see it is that if I am content to buy something that has been farmed and killed in order to eat it I am more than happy to do the killing myself since I know far more about what has happened to the creature and its quality and, probably, the effect I am having on the environment.

Pike do have a lot of bones, in particular "Y" shaped bones above the lateral line in the flesh either side of their spinal chord. The bones are strong too. However, there is a very simple way of cutting good fillets off them which avoids the bones, and then you can boil the rest of the fish up to make a magnificent stock and pick out the flesh from the stock mix to put through a blender and make fish cakes so nothing goes to waste. The flesh is really fantastic quality in terms of subtlety of taste and texture - I also suspect that a pike from a chalk stream is marginally better than a pike from less pure water.
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