Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him!

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Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him! Empty Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him!

Post by Valero's Conscience on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 9:46 am

Pac has been used to putting stipulations in his fights and getting things his own way so i'm glad Cotto is refusing to fight below 150ibs.

Fighting one guy at 150ibs but not another never looks good!

Also Cotto has confirmed he has the opportunity to fight Mayweather and they've confirmed 150 is no problem.


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Post by School Project on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 9:57 am

I'm glad about this, its about time someone does this. At the end of the day, weight stipulations are in place to protect boxers, draining yourself for a fight is no different than sticking a lightweight fighter in with a supermiddle... coming into a fight dehydrated should not happen.

It's just a shame Cotto agreed 1st time.

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Post by SugarRayRussell (PBK) on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 10:07 am

If Pacquiao refuses to take on Cotto at 150lbs unless he is fighting Marquez or Mayweather it looks bad for him.

Good on Cotto most fighters would drain there bodies for the money.
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Post by John Bloody Wayne on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 10:46 am

I don't think this fight would garner any interest below 153 given how one sided they were first time around. You've got to wonder why the Pacquiao camp doesn't have any confidence? Even after battering a guy, proving beyond doubt who the better fighter is head2head, they still want stipulations. Where's the machismo?

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Post by Fists of Fury on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 10:55 am

It doesn't look bad at all. Pacquiao annihilated him in serious style last time out, he has nothing to prove as far as Cotto goes. 5lbs isn't going to make that much of a difference.

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Post by Valero's Conscience on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 10:57 am

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I don't think this fight would garner any interest below 153 given how one sided they were first time around. You've got to wonder why the Pacquiao camp doesn't have any confidence? Even after battering a guy, proving beyond doubt who the better fighter is head2head, they still want stipulations. Where's the machismo?

Manny's machismo are in Arum's mouth!

Over the past 2-3 years little things have wound me up about Manny and his stipulations and comments and overall lack of a backbone to even fight his own case in matters.

It wouldn't bother me at all if he hadn't already fought someone at 150ibs but to do it to one and not another, especially when you've already beat him convincingly just enhances claims of cherry picking.

I would still favour Manny at 150ibs over Cotto but at this stage in his career he doesn't want to challenge himself, which is no shame but he should just retire.

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Post by Rowley on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 10:58 am

For me the current trend towards catchweight fights proves that there are clearly not enough division in boxing, if Mr Suleman is reading this your urgent action would be appreciated.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 11:00 am

So we need a "Slightly Super Welterweight" division created for this matchup.

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Post by Rowley on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 11:01 am

John Bloody Wayne wrote:So we need a "Slightly Super Welterweight" division created for this matchup.

Either that or really light middle works for me.

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Post by Fists of Fury on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 11:02 am

Agreed, think the heart isn't quite in the sport any more, retirement would be best bet before he loses to somebody he perhaps shouldn't have.

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Post by bhb001 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 11:24 am

rowley wrote:
John Bloody Wayne wrote:So we need a "Slightly Super Welterweight" division created for this matchup.

Either that or really light middle works for me.

WBO are rushing to create this new weight as we speak with Warren's fighters lining up to be declared champion by raffle

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Post by coxy0001 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 12:34 pm

Cotto has always been relatively easy to hit, in fights like the Mosley one he boxed behind a jab and stayed out of trouble. Hasn't used the jab with anywhere near as much success or regularity since and the old saying will become reality "once you get hit you revert to type", which means he'll trade and get stuck on his arse again. Cue 8 rounds of back peddling that makes Khan's defensive game look something above schoolboy atrocious.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 12:40 pm

Cotto got caught against Magarito and kept to the game plan, why should it be any different against Manny?
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Post by Valero's Conscience on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 12:52 pm

hampo171 wrote:Cotto got caught against Magarito and kept to the game plan, why should it be any different against Manny?

Marg is slow and Cotto had time to adjust whereas Manny is a lot quicker and doesn't give Cotto the time to make adjustments.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 1:05 pm

Don't see as Manny has anything to prove against Cotto, nor does not fighting him now and taking someone else count against him. He fought and beat (heavily) him at Cotto's best weight (1lb 'weight-drain' aside).

If Floyd wants to take him anywhere between 150 and 154 then I think that'll be a good W on his CV but would rather see Pac take Bradley at 147 to be honest.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 1:05 pm

coxy0001 wrote:Cotto has always been relatively easy to hit, in fights like the Mosley one he boxed behind a jab and stayed out of trouble. Hasn't used the jab with anywhere near as much success or regularity since and the old saying will become reality "once you get hit you revert to type", which means he'll trade and get stuck on his arse again. Cue 8 rounds of back peddling that makes Khan's defensive game look something above schoolboy atrocious.

I think you're underrating Cotto's abilities quite abit here, he's got pretty solid fundamentals and, regardless of opponent, fought off the back foot effectively and dominantly against Marg.

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Post by coxy0001 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 1:14 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:Cotto has always been relatively easy to hit, in fights like the Mosley one he boxed behind a jab and stayed out of trouble. Hasn't used the jab with anywhere near as much success or regularity since and the old saying will become reality "once you get hit you revert to type", which means he'll trade and get stuck on his arse again. Cue 8 rounds of back peddling that makes Khan's defensive game look something above schoolboy atrocious.

I think you're underrating Cotto's abilities quite abit here, he's got pretty solid fundamentals and, regardless of opponent, fought off the back foot effectively and dominantly against Marg.

Think it's fair to say that Marg now he's minus his special help (bricks in gloves) isn't quite the same boxer he was. Not that he was particularly great in the first place.

When he's put under the cosh and starts taking shots he'll revert to type, I can't see how a one sided beat down gets reversed or Cotto even goes down on the wrong end of a 116-112 kinda UD.

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Post by WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:00 pm

I don't get this, manny has beat him easily once and he wants to fight him again. Why? Cotto will have a good chance also. They last fought 2 years ago, and since then neither have looked as good. Cotto has good fundamentals and if manny has slowed enough then cotto could outbox him. Manny isn't as explosive and cotto will be in better shape as he will waste less energy getting that extra 4 pounds off. If cotto sticks to his jab and doesn't get into a war he can win a decision. Marquez won 116-112 imo and although Marquez is a better counterpuncher and seems Mandy's bogeyman, cotto hits harder and is bigger

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Post by Steffan on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:02 pm

Lets hope this fight doesnt happen. Manny should fight Floyd then retire and become ruler of the Philippines

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Post by Steffan on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:05 pm

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote: Mandy's

Laugh

Mandy Poochio

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Post by coxy0001 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:06 pm

Marquez is a better counterpuncher and seems Mandy's bogeyman

Who's Mandy?

Mandy Moore?

Are you saying Marquez is stalking Mandy Moore who has fame with such brilliant albums as "So Real" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErntJrtQGBg


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Post by Steffan on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:09 pm

Can you blame Marquez if he is

She is hot

Spoiler:
Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him! Zreny7X37oblvvyieCSzBV3oo1_400

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Post by J.Benson II on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:28 pm

I'd fancy Paquaio to beat Cotto again at whatever weight they fight at.

Its hard to judge how strong Cotto is at the moment as his oppostion at 154 has been very weak. He looked good against Margarito but I'm not convinced Marg could be considered anything above journeyman status by the time he fought Manny, let alone Cotto.
Foreman was a paper champ who couldnt punch his way out of a wet paper bag while Mayorga was just a punchbag with a big mouth.

These wins may have boosted his confidence but I feel that they've just painted over the cracks.
As was the case in their first fight, Manny will overwhelm Cotto with his speed and angles.

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Post by coxy0001 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 2:36 pm

Steffan wrote:Can you blame Marquez if he is

She is hot

Spoiler:
Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him! Zreny7X37oblvvyieCSzBV3oo1_400

Is just a better version of Cheryl Cole minus the irritating accent, minus the chavvy scum personality and minus the general penchant for getting with obnoxious muppets who deserve to drown in sulphuric acid.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 7:10 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:It doesn't look bad at all. Pacquiao annihilated him in serious style last time out, he has nothing to prove as far as Cotto goes. 5lbs isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Who's to say it wont make a difference, think it's becoming a bit of joke how team Pacquiao wont fight fighters at there weight but try forcing them to drain themselves.

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Post by Knowsit17 on Thu 26 Jan 2012, 9:46 pm

Don't see what's so attractive about Pacman-Cotto II. Manny dominated Cotto from start to finish back when the latter was a regular at WW. Manny himself has fought in eight divisions throughout his career, you can hardly accuse him of always wanting people to shrink or grow for his own sake. Based on their last fight, when it was Pacquiao who made the move, he has nothing to prove against Cotto and I don't see how the result of a rematch would be that much different...

Bradley ought to be Pacman's next fight, then Mayweather if hopefully both are willing to put up or shut up.

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Post by Valero's Conscience on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 8:05 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:It doesn't look bad at all. Pacquiao annihilated him in serious style last time out, he has nothing to prove as far as Cotto goes. 5lbs isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Who's to say it wont make a difference, think it's becoming a bit of joke how team Pacquiao wont fight fighters at there weight but try forcing them to drain themselves.

Exactly, if the weight isn't an issue, why constantly try and impose the catchweights?!?

I'd be disappointed if Cotto backed down and took the fight at 147ibs, win or lose i'd respect Cotto for not backing down.

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Post by Knowsit17 on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 12:46 pm

Valero's Conscience wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:It doesn't look bad at all. Pacquiao annihilated him in serious style last time out, he has nothing to prove as far as Cotto goes. 5lbs isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Who's to say it wont make a difference, think it's becoming a bit of joke how team Pacquiao wont fight fighters at there weight but try forcing them to drain themselves.

Exactly, if the weight isn't an issue, why constantly try and impose the catchweights?!?

I'd be disappointed if Cotto backed down and took the fight at 147ibs, win or lose i'd respect Cotto for not backing down.

Can only repeat the content of my last post, there's little evidence, if any, that Pacman forces his opponents to drain themselves. Let's look through his last few fights:
Marquez stepped up from lightweight, he didn't drain himself.
Mosley fought at welterweight where he's been fighting for most of his recent career.
Margarito fought Manny at LMW, in which case Manny stepped up and Marg didn't have to budge, certainly no 'draining' there either.
Again, Clottey was a regular at WW when Manny fought him at that weight.
Cotto had fought all his recent fights at WW when Manny took him on there.

So where exactly does this perception of Pacman "forcing" his opponents to step down and fight him spring from? I'm genuinely curious.

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Post by johnson2 on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 12:49 pm

Cotto 145, Marg 150.

They are not weight divisions. Mosely coming off a draw with Mora at LMW etc...

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 2:05 pm

I guess it began with De La Hoya and as johnson points out, there were weight stipulations in place for Cotto and Marg.

I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it (has been done a million times before) but there is enough there to create the perception.

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Post by Lance on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 2:14 pm

if cotto could make the lower weight and had to for the money he would. but im pretty sure he cant make it anymore. he looked very big against margarito last time out

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Post by oxring on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 2:17 pm

FFS again?

DLH picked the weight for the fight with Pacquiao.
Cotto had to lose 2 pounds - coming off Manny stepping up from 140.
Mosley was a career WW. No weight stips.
Clottey a careeer WW, no weight stips.
Margarito, just moving up from WW, fought at 150. Manny rehydrated to 148, Margarito rehydrated to 165. Where the hell is the advantage in that?

Yes - they're not weight divisions. Do you want me to post the history of catchweight fights throughout boxing history? They've been around for ever - to allow smaller men (Pacquiao) to fight much bigger men (Margarito).

Odd really, feels like I've said this before...
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Post by Rowley on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 2:26 pm

You are right Oxy, the only issue I have with catchweights, are firstly in a day with 17 divisions as we have today I would question to what extent they are necessary and I absolutely despise with a passion when belts are on the line for catchweights, if a belt in on the line a guy should always be permitted to enter the ring anywhere up to and including that divsions limit without any financial disincentive or penalty for doing so. However am not sure either of these are Manny's fault.


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Post by Lance on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

oxring wrote:FFS again?

DLH picked the weight for the fight with Pacquiao.
Cotto had to lose 2 pounds - coming off Manny stepping up from 140.
Mosley was a career WW. No weight stips.
Clottey a careeer WW, no weight stips.
Margarito, just moving up from WW, fought at 150. Manny rehydrated to 148, Margarito rehydrated to 165. Where the hell is the advantage in that?

Yes - they're not weight divisions. Do you want me to post the history of catchweight fights throughout boxing history? They've been around for ever - to allow smaller men (Pacquiao) to fight much bigger men (Margarito).

Odd really, feels like I've said this before...

i wouldnt pick too many holes in who pacs fought and at what weight, its not as if he forced these guys to fight him. the only thing i dont take seriously is some of the belts that have been on the line. the cotto catchweight was fine but it shouldnt have been for his title, and the margarito fight being for the title was ridiculous. pac has used a lot of propoganda to maximise his publicity going through the weights and make it seem like hes the one taking on super human challenges, when in reality hes just like mayweather going into fights holding all the cards.

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Post by oxring on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 5:50 pm

I don't like belts being on the line - the weight limit is the weight limit. So attack the sanctioning organisations.

But attacking Manny for making fights with DLH, Cotto, and Margarito is stupid.
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Post by Atila on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 6:20 pm

oxring wrote:I don't like belts being on the line - the weight limit is the weight limit. So attack the sanctioning organisations.

But attacking Manny for making fights with DLH, Cotto, and Margarito is stupid.
I wouldn't attack Manny for fighting the three that you mentioned, but the hoopla and back slapping that he got for beating those three was too much.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 27 Jan 2012, 7:16 pm

Exactly..getting sick and tired of his and Arum's habit of screwing opponents before the first bell.....

Hope his legacy will show how much he cheated to get where he did...

Making a guy sweat more weight off than he realistically can and fight good!!!!! is cheating in my book...

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Sun 29 Jan 2012, 8:58 pm

Oxy when you impose a catchweight on a fighter you are opening yourself up to scrutiny and if we're honest Margarito and Cotto had no option but to accept because of being promoted by Arum. The 145lb limit was done for a reason to try and give Pacquiao every single small advantage he could get, it didn't help Cotto in the slightest and we have no real way of knowing if it hindered him. Had they fought at the full limit these questions would not be asked and the same is true of Margarito, you have some who try and make out he was drained for Mosley then ignore the catchweight against Pacquiao, it's one or the other not both.

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Post by oxring on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 12:39 am

Ghosty - I agree - all we want is some consistency.

However - I'd like to throw in - that we want some perspective and balance here as well.

Pacquiao is a guy who had been weighing in at about 144, 145 pounds on fight night for years. The heaviest he's weighed on fight night is 147/8. Cotto's a guy who weighs in at nearly 160 on fight night.

Maybe the catchweight isn't unreasonable.

Should a belt beon the line for a 145lb fight? No. But that's not what's argued.

As for Margarito - when he weighed in at 165 on fight night, I find criticism of the fact that the fight was at 151 the day before a little odd. He massively outweighed Pacquiao in the ring. Complain that he was slow as molasses and hadn't done anything to deserve a shot against Pacquiao - sure. But not about the weight.

Should a belt be available for a fight at 150? No - but we're not arguing that.

People question Pacquiao because the praise he receives is often over the top and hyperbole. As long as its balanced objective criticism I don't mind - but too often it isn't that.

Lets face it - which is better - to make a catchweight with a fighter moving up from LW at 144lbs, and then fail to bother to keep it and pay a piffling financial penalty (which, to me, is one of the more disgusting and despicable acts of cheating we have seen in recent times) - or to make a catchweight, keep it and deliver an exciting fight?
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Post by coxy0001 on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 9:02 am

Ox, why ask for a catchweight if it makes no difference? If 2lbs doesn't effect someone why make them come down that extra amount? It's pretty clear (like a smack in the face) why they demanded it and that's they were after an advantage before they stepped into the ring.

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Post by Valero's Conscience on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 9:56 am

coxy0001 wrote:Ox, why ask for a catchweight if it makes no difference? If 2lbs doesn't effect someone why make them come down that extra amount? It's pretty clear (like a smack in the face) why they demanded it and that's they were after an advantage before they stepped into the ring.

Completely agree, why demand it, especially knowing how much stick he gets for it if it makes no sodding difference!

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Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him! Empty Re: Cotto Won't Fight Pac below 150, Good For Him!

Post by oxring on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 10:56 am

No - hang on - I'm not saying it makes a difference!

It obviously does make a difference - I'm saying that to have the catchweight is fair - because it is allowing a fight between a smaller and a much bigger man.

To prove that isn't what I'm saying - here's the relevant excerpt from my above post:
oxring wrote:Pacquiao is a guy who had been weighing in at about 144, 145 pounds on fight night for years. The heaviest he's weighed on fight night is 147/8. Cotto's a guy who weighs in at nearly 160 on fight night.
Maybe the catchweight isn't unreasonable.
Should a belt beon the line for a 145lb fight? No. But that's not what's argued.

The extra 2lbs is designed to equalise the scales. Nothing more. A good big-un should always beat a good little-un remember - so making the fight at a catchweight makes things a slightly more level playing field.
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Post by Valero's Conscience on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 11:44 am

Boxing's weight classes are pathetic in my eyes in regards to the small differences in between them. To have catchweights on top is just crazy.

Never liked and never will, full stop.

If the playing field isn't right in a particular division then the guy is not in the right division and should feck off!

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Post by johnson2 on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 12:13 pm

oxring wrote:FFS again?

DLH picked the weight for the fight with Pacquiao.
Cotto had to lose 2 pounds - coming off Manny stepping up from 140.
Mosley was a career WW. No weight stips.
Clottey a careeer WW, no weight stips.
Margarito, just moving up from WW, fought at 150. Manny rehydrated to 148, Margarito rehydrated to 165. Where the hell is the advantage in that?

Yes - they're not weight divisions. Do you want me to post the history of catchweight fights throughout boxing history? They've been around for ever - to allow smaller men (Pacquiao) to fight much bigger men (Margarito).

Odd really, feels like I've said this before...

Pac outweighed DLH due to (apparent) stips they imposed.
Cotto drained 2 pounds to give Mann an advantage, likewise Marg.

They were done for a reason.

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Post by johnson2 on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 12:14 pm

oxring wrote:No - hang on - I'm not saying it makes a difference!

It obviously does make a difference - I'm saying that to have the catchweight is fair - because it is allowing a fight between a smaller and a much bigger man.

To prove that isn't what I'm saying - here's the relevant excerpt from my above post:
oxring wrote:Pacquiao is a guy who had been weighing in at about 144, 145 pounds on fight night for years. The heaviest he's weighed on fight night is 147/8. Cotto's a guy who weighs in at nearly 160 on fight night.
Maybe the catchweight isn't unreasonable.
Should a belt beon the line for a 145lb fight? No. But that's not what's argued.

The extra 2lbs is designed to equalise the scales. Nothing more. A good big-un should always beat a good little-un remember - so making the fight at a catchweight makes things a slightly more level playing field.

Thats the point though. The appeal in these fights is Manny taking on the bigger stronger man. By shamefully draining them it takes away the biggest chance they have. Sure, they may still be bigger, but the damage done taking off the weight renders to punchbag status.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 7:30 pm

I don't agree with catchweight fights fullstop i'm afraid Oxy.

Cotto was a seasoned 147lb fighter, we can speculate that losing an extra 2lbs makes no difference but in reality we haven't got a clue, if you want to fight a bigger man you should fight on their terms as is the norm in boxing.

I don't want to see Mayweather fight Cotto or Martinez at a catchweight either and I don't make excuses for Canzoneri, Leonard or Greb so I wont for Pacquiao either. There are 17 weight classes in boxing which is far too many without adding more, there are times when you blame can't be placed on either fighter such as the second fight between Williams and Martinez as I don't see who gained an advantage from it.

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Post by Atila on Mon 30 Jan 2012, 7:53 pm

All the criticism Pacquiao receives for these catchweight title fights is justified. His claim to fame is that he has won belts in 8 divisions. In that case, he should do it properly, the old fashioned way.

Anyway, it's 6 titles in 6 divisions for me. The Ring belt is not a true world title.

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Post by oxring on Tue 31 Jan 2012, 12:57 am

johnson2 wrote:
oxring wrote:No - hang on - I'm not saying it makes a difference!

It obviously does make a difference - I'm saying that to have the catchweight is fair - because it is allowing a fight between a smaller and a much bigger man.

To prove that isn't what I'm saying - here's the relevant excerpt from my above post:
oxring wrote:Pacquiao is a guy who had been weighing in at about 144, 145 pounds on fight night for years. The heaviest he's weighed on fight night is 147/8. Cotto's a guy who weighs in at nearly 160 on fight night.
Maybe the catchweight isn't unreasonable.
Should a belt beon the line for a 145lb fight? No. But that's not what's argued.

The extra 2lbs is designed to equalise the scales. Nothing more. A good big-un should always beat a good little-un remember - so making the fight at a catchweight makes things a slightly more level playing field.

Thats the point though. The appeal in these fights is Manny taking on the bigger stronger man. By shamefully draining them it takes away the biggest chance they have. Sure, they may still be bigger, but the damage done taking off the weight renders to punchbag status.

Surely the appeal is watching the top p4p boxer on the planet fight a legitimate challenge? Cotto at 145 was a legitimate challenge. He'd have been more legitimate at 147, no question though...
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