Dundee or Futch?

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Dundee or Futch? Empty Dundee or Futch?

Post by horizontalhero on Fri 03 Feb 2012, 11:24 pm

The death of Angelo Dundee this week has had me thinking about one a boxings slighty more behind the scenes rivalries- that between Futch and Dundee- head to head I think it ended up 4-2 to Dundee, but both were undoubtedly amongst boxings finest trainers and cornermen, with numerous Champions on their CV's, but like the fighters they worked with the were quite different characters- Dundee could be larger than life, aggitated and animated in the corner, Futch was a much cooler, calmer character.
In my mind Futch probably comes out on top- his work with the likes of Bowe should be could take raw talent and mold it into a very polished product, and the breadth of different styles of fighter that he trained is greater than that Dundee could boast- I also feel that he was a more consumate professional, whereas Dundee could sometimes lose himself in the moment- during the Leonard fights with Hearns and Haglar he was inpired hyping up his charge, but when working with Berbick and later with Thomas when they fought Tyson he was (please forgive for writing this) awful- when Berbick came back to the stool having spent three minutes committing boxing suicide, and desperatley in need of his cornerman to try and turn things round, Dundee spent the next thirty seconds shouting at his assistant "where's the Flip sponge" similar situation for Thomas, and Dundee spent the interval arguing with the ringside Doctor. He could get too passionate and lose focus. I can't ever think of a situation where Futch was ever so flustered.
In the book ghosts of Manila the author suggest that Ali would have been better served by Futch than Dundee, in that Futch would have done more to try and prevent Ali continuing so long after his talent desserted him, and that Dundee was culpable in not trying to force Ali to face reality. The man himself argued that he stayed with Ali to try and protect him, and not let him take unneccessary beatings ( though you have to ask why he waited so long before stopping the Holmes fight.) Ali would have carried on regardless, and Dundee wanted to be there for him at the end as he was at the begining. What is you guys take on it?


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Post by Steffan on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 12:35 am

You should do paragraphs mate it makes easier reading

Not having a go just making a suggestion OK

Think if I was a boxer I would have prefered to be trained by Dundee

He had a bit more of a volatile personality which I would have responded to better

Thats just me though

Someone who loses their rag easily like Windy would need the calmness of Futch Wink

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Post by Seanusarrilius on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 3:43 am

Dundee for me

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Post by horizontalhero on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 3:54 am

Seanusarrilius wrote:Dundee for me

Any particular reason Seanusarrilius? I'm interested to see how people think they compared, both as trainers and as cornermen.

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Post by hogey on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 9:38 am

Where trainers are concerned its horses for courses what methods work with one fighter might not work with others. Angelo Dundee admits in his book life in the corner that he wasnt so good technically as Arcel and Futch but he got results from his ability to motivate his fighters. I would say more naturally gifted fighters would prosper under Dundee and the ones that needed to work a bit harder for it would do better with Futch. If i could have had any trainer though it would have been Ray Arcel he was the complete package knew every trick in the book to give his fighter an edge.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 10:18 am

Futch for me. Dundee was a very good trainer but as hogey points out, even by his own admission, Angelo was not as technically astute as Futch.

I don't think there have been many men with Futch's eye for boxing and he always seemed to have a very clear plan put in place for his fighter to follow.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 10:53 am

Dundee could improvise like nobody else, always find a way to have a broken fighter come back to the corner like an F1 car with a missing wing, fix it with kitchen utensils, then send it out better than when it started.

Futch was the superior technical trainer, and absolute master strategist. In a sense Dundee and Futch went head to head on several occasions, and neither man really came out on top. However between Norton and Ali I know who the more gifted fighter was. I also know who had the better gameplan, so I pick Futch overall.

When I think of these two I remember the second Ali v Fraier fight. Ali and Frazier coming together at ring center for instructions and Futch starts pressuring the ref not allow any of Ali's holding or wrestling. Dundee immediately grabs the mic and yells twice as loud that the ref better watch out for Frazier's hip punches and low blows. Always had to get the last word!

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Post by Nico the gman on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 12:38 pm

Two fantastic trainers not much in it but Futch just for me, the heavyweights Futch trained gave Ali the hardest fights of his career.

The champions Dundee and Futch trained are unbelievable Ali,Leonard,Gomez,Napoles Basillio and Nunn,in Dundee's corner.

Frazier,Holmes,Bob Foster,Arguello,Spinks,and Mike McCallum in Futchs corner and numerous others they both trained.

Two standout trainers in any era of boxing close one to call.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 6:26 pm

Futch is the absolute man for me, his variety of fighters is almost unparalleled and they weren't men as naturally talented as Leonard or Ali which would be my really picky criticism of Dundee.

What Futch did taking Frazier to the top of the heavyweight division is a more impressive achievement than taking Ali there, not much in it but that's the difference in my opinion.

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Post by sittingringside on Fri 10 Feb 2012, 7:35 pm

I would agree in general that Dundee's record is helped by his having trained more naturally gifted fighters, Napoles, Leonard and Ali being the prime cases in point. The one oddball in there is Basillio, a man whom Dundee propelled to great heights despite his lacking the obvious abundance of natural talent we see in his other protégées. I think this definitely shows that Dundee was capable of forming and implementing a strategy that made use of the strengths of a more limited fighter. I'd agree that Futch was a more technical trainer over his career. However, I find the overall 'x-factor' that Dundee brought with his canny ring smarts and overall force of character difficult to ignore, and for that reason I think I would just favour him over Futch.

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