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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 4:30 pm

On another Tread we got on to talking about people playing for diiferent countries.

SANZAR makes up most of the people that do play for other countries.

Are there any from the six nations or that play for other countries.

Are their any from Tier 3 or low who are playing for other nations.

Players who made their name in academy or semi pro teams in that coutry they don't count.

Can any link be many with that country eg morgan is parent.

It seems alot of people play for the country they are from eg the Georgians or some the the italians who where austrialan-italian

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 4:33 pm

I do not want the NZ PI thing as that is covered by academies and will asked for comments to be removed as I want to know if it is just the big three that have such anoverflow/want to play regardless of who for

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Post by Biltong on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:26 pm

Italy

Quinton Geldenhuys - qualified through residency, he played for the Pumas in SA and left in 2005, he made his debut for Italy in 2009

Cornelius van Zyl - qualified through residency, he played for the Cheetahs in 2006, made his debut for Italy in 2011 RWC

Tobias Botes - qualified through residency, he played currie Cup in 2008 and made his debut for Italy in 2012

England

Mouritz Botha - Residency, I cant seem to find any substantial record of him in SA, but I think he left when he was around 22 years of age

Brad Barrit - I don't think it was through residency as he was still playing Super rugby in 2009, must be throguh a grandparent.

Matt Stevens - represented SA at U19 and then left, must have been through grandparents or parents.

Australia

Dan Vickerman - Played SA U19 and then left for australia, qualified through residency I think.

There are a few playing for Canada as well, but I am to lazy to research that right now.

There were also a number who in the past represented other countries such as Mike Catt (England), Pieter de Villiers (France), Greg Rawlinson (New Zealand), Geoff appleford (England 7's), Stuart Abbot (England), Hal Luscombe, don't know much about his history though.



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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:29 pm

Jeers.

My Father in law is from South Africa and goes on about Merthens being a SAFA but I think he left when he was young but may have been to play due to exile

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Post by whocares on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:34 pm

In France there was also Tony Marsh (kiwi, 21 caps for france).

there is talks in France on wether or not Brock James could play for France under residency rules. he did play for Australia U21 and 7s but not sure if that count or not...

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:36 pm

If he plays for the 7s he can't there was discussion was similar with Mafi but couldn't cause of 7s

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Post by GavinDragon on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:39 pm

rhys thomas TH went to school in SA

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Post by HammerofThunor on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:40 pm

Brad Barritt has English parents (or at least an English mother)

Cuthbert was born and bred in England but moved to Wales and has a Welsh mother. Max Evans and Jim Hamilton were born born and bred in England. I think Max has a Scottish parent and an English parent, not sure about Jim but it's not on residency.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:42 pm

Brock James is ruled out due to playing 7s.


Biltong, both Barritt and Stevens are UK passport holders with at least one English parent. Botha never played pro rugby in SA. Came here like many young South Africans to be a base for travelling Europe. Played for a junior club in Bedford, progressed to the Blues and then on to Sarries.


There have been a lot of Argentinians play for Italy - in the current team Castro and Parisse were born and raised in Argentina.


There is a lot of migration in the world so it is no wonder that nationality can tend to be fluid.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:46 pm

Anyone who has a parent will always feel afinite to that country.
My kids if good enough will play for ireland or south africa and to be far I want them growing up feeling they are SAFAs too.

Just watch rubgy with my dad in law I feel that SANZAR are out to get them and its them against the world

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:49 pm

Argentina I have noticed they have alot play for Italy and I think that is down to Italy recuiting them more bit then Georgia seem to play for Georgia and Not France or Italy.

Still seems like it is the big three to contribute. Any other teams give to others. I'm supprised England don't have more playing for other countries to be honest

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:51 pm

Dimitri Yachvili has at least one brother who has played for Georgia.

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 5:56 pm

There was debabe over him being georgian or his brother having a georgian parent/grand-parent

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:02 pm

I think the parents emigrated to France

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Post by whocares on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Dimitri Yachvili has at least one brother who has played for Georgia.

yes however they are both born in france with only the grandad being from Georgia.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:15 pm

Brendan wrote:Jeers.

My Father in law is from South Africa and goes on about Merthens being a SAFA but I think he left when he was young but may have been to play due to exile

Merhtens' father Terry was an NZ U23 and Canterbury player (Merht's Grandad George played for the ABs vs NSW in 1928, effectively a test match as NSW was the only state playing), the family moved to Durban for 4 years in 1970, with Terry turning out for Natal (including playing fullback against the All Blacks) and returning home when Andrew was 1.

France had an SA prop for a while (de Villiers?). And Australia picked up Rodriguez from Argentina in the 90s.

Back in the 30s England beat the ABs courtesy of a superb performance by an exiled Russian Prince (Obolensky).

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:16 pm

so there is one france has contributed

It still seems like it is more the big two then three as SA and NZ are the big ones.

Who was the last Argintine to declare for another nation. It seems like they are keeping hold of them now esp. as they were free for all the season so were better off to play to Argintina then europe

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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:19 pm

Seems like the Andrew thing is a Strech on my ather in Law's part and why Bil didn't mention as he seems to know all.

I would be interested to know the Last PI who was not rasied in NZ/Auz or come through the academy to play for NZ/Auz would think it would be early 90s at best if not before.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:24 pm

Brendan wrote:Seems like the Andrew thing is a Strech on my ather in Law's part and why Bil didn't mention as he seems to know all.

I would be interested to know the Last PI who was not rasied in NZ/Auz or come through the academy to play for NZ/Auz would think it would be early 90s at best if not before.

Joeli Vidiri for NZ probably.


Greg Rawlinson was a SA born kiwi, and Clyde Rathbone a SA Wallaby
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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:28 pm

when did Joeli Vidiri make his debute

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:35 pm


Josh Matavesi, Cornish born, bred and raised but whose father is Fijian and a former tin-miner. He came through Exeter academy and on the fringes of English age-groups before earning full caps for Fiji 2 years ago during the AI's, followed by U-20 caps at JWC.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:39 pm

Brendan wrote:when did Joeli Vidiri make his debute

Fiji debut 1994, moved to NZ 1994, NZ debut 1998

His career was cut short by kidney disease.

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Post by Biltong on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:44 pm

I remember him, he was a great rugby player. thumbsup
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Post by Biltong on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:46 pm

Vidiri scoring a try for the Blues
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Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 6:48 pm

Seems to me like the easiest to to fix playing for other countries is ban SA and NZ for playing for other countries.

My dad in law is really worried if the rising gerneration that a moving like you said Bill at just out of school will there be problems as money for playing Northern international is more then the south

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Post by Biltong on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 7:08 pm

Yeah, Brendon, I believe the biggest threat is from France and Oddly Australia since Jake White has moved to the Brumbies. He has seen an opportunity and because the Brumbies are sponsored by the Canberra University, he has suggested that the university start an academy of sorts whereby SA schoolboy rugby players are sponsored to study through them obvioulsy with the goal to represent the Brumbies. You can bet your bottom dollar they will most likely represent Australia if good enough.

It won't be the first time youngsters are attracted to Oz, Clyde Rathbone and Dan vickerman are two examples.

Currently there are a big number of young guys in france who must have been drawn there even before we saw them in the currie Cup and Vodacom cup.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 10:57 pm

wait wait wait... how did vidiri play for both NZ and fiji??? i thought once u played for one country you had to stay with them...like nacewa isnt allowed play for ireland cause he played for fiji

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Post by HammerofThunor on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 11:07 pm

That's a relatively new ruling. Michael Jones also played for Samoa and New Zealand didn't he?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 11:30 pm

Tuigamala played for NZ then Samoa...and didnt Stephen bachop.

Isnt the rule if someone plays for NZ...only 1 or twice then dumped... but has links with Fiji, Samoa or tonga under some rule they can play for that other team to avoid player drain so to speak.

Been lots between 6n teams - Dewi Morris, Rupert Moon...

Zimbabwe have produce many a player for SA (and other teams) likewise Zambia for a few nations.

I agree i think the days of Argentians turning out for others are well and truly over.


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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 11 Apr 2012, 11:35 pm

it sounds like SH teams are stunting the growth of nations like samoa fiji zimbabwe and zambia from becoming good,even great rugby nations...definatley samoa and fiji... NZ seems to take most of their good players which is really annoying because id love to see these nations grow

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Post by boomeranga on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 1:12 am

We have plenty. In our first 15 alone there's Stephen Moore (baby), Sekope Kepu (after school), Dan Vickerman (after school), David Pocock (13 yo), Will Genia (12 yo), Quade Cooper (14 yo).

Biltong - I dont think Jake's idea for Canberra Uni will prove much of a threat. We dont have an university sporting system here beyond regular amatuer clubs for students, and the once a year Uni Games which are more a drinking festival with an exercise requirement. There was also some degree of stink over a uni sponsoring a pro sports team so spending more to give a footballer an education would be too controversial I suspect.

More normal is the clubs (of all codes) paying the education tab for their players as part of the Life after Rugby / League / Football / AFL program. It would be odds on that Rathbone and Vickerman received this sort of benefit as part of their poaching.

Where I think we may be more of a threat is whatever attraction he provides as a coach added to the reduced competition to make it to pro level relative to SA.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 1:22 am

leinsterfan4life

Didnt you know that you cant play rugby in New Zealand unless you were born in Fiji or samoa.even Maoris have to come from Pacific Islands.

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Post by TJ1 on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 8:28 am

Scotland have had loads of Kilted Kiwis. some froma parent or grandparent some from residency

Glen Metcalfe

Sean Lineen

Leslie Brothers - dad was an all black

brendon laney

Nathan Hines - Australian - known as wagga wagga

Plenty more I am sure

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Post by Bathite on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:29 am

biltongbek wrote:Italy

Quinton Geldenhuys - qualified through residency, he played for the Pumas in SA and left in 2005, he made his debut for Italy in 2009

Cornelius van Zyl - qualified through residency, he played for the Cheetahs in 2006, made his debut for Italy in 2011 RWC

Tobias Botes - qualified through residency, he played currie Cup in 2008 and made his debut for Italy in 2012

England

Mouritz Botha - Residency, I cant seem to find any substantial record of him in SA, but I think he left when he was around 22 years of age

Brad Barrit - I don't think it was through residency as he was still playing Super rugby in 2009, must be throguh a grandparent.

Matt Stevens - represented SA at U19 and then left, must have been through grandparents or parents.

Australia

Dan Vickerman - Played SA U19 and then left for australia, qualified through residency I think.

There are a few playing for Canada as well, but I am to lazy to research that right now.

There were also a number who in the past represented other countries such as Mike Catt (England), Pieter de Villiers (France), Greg Rawlinson (New Zealand), Geoff appleford (England 7's), Stuart Abbot (England), Hal Luscombe, don't know much about his history though.


I may be wrong on this, but wasn't Andrew Merhtens eligilble for the Boks as well? I know that James O'Connor was eligible for AUZ, NZ and SA!

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Post by Biltong on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:31 am

Mehrtens was born in SA, but from a New Zealand couple, they moved back to NZ when he was just a little boy, he never actually played rugby in SA.
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Post by Biltong on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 9:39 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Zimbabwe have produce many a player for SA (and other teams) likewise Zambia for a few nations.

The problem for zimbabwe is they have no real development strucutre of any strength or facilities for their players who leave school, you will find our club rugby, vodacom and eventually professional rugby for those who develop are the main manner in which these guys develop their skills to become professional.

I found this article regarding their situation.

Zimbabwe rugby exodus.
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Post by HammerofThunor on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:20 am

The thing about the Argentinian Italians is that they ARE Italian. A large part of the Argentinian rugby society are Italians who have immigrated there. Parisse was born and raised in Argentina but to Italian parents, spent every summer in Italy and was registered as an Italian living abroad. He's always thought of himself as an Italian living in Argentina.

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Post by Brendan on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:35 am

That is interesting Hammer.
There are alot of people who think of themselves as Irish who just happen to be born in another country.

My Dad was born in England but told all the time of his Irishness

As I said earlier It seems that only SA and NZ are providing other countries with players.

Tim Visser is one of the few who seems not to want to play for his country in Europe

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Post by dummy_half on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:36 am

Interesting on Parisse. Presumably Castrogiovanni's story is similar.

Going back a few years, there was Willie O (I'm not even going to attempt the last name). Pacific Islander by birth (Tonga iirc), who moved to New Zealand as a schoolboy and was picked for NZ schools to tour Australia. The problem was that his paperwork was wrong, so he wasn't able to re-enter New Zealand at the end of the tour and so was forced to remain in Australia. Good news for the Wobblies as it turned out, as he was a more thn decent flanker.

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Post by AlastairW on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 10:51 am

Quiad Cooper. How a NZ born Australia player survived through the last RWC i'll never know Run - i remember the build up to the match where Auntie interviewd a lot of locals and i think he was definatley public enemy numero uno. There was a lot of thinly veiled distain to say the least!

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Post by thedogg25 on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 11:02 am

Im pretty sure Dafydd James and George Gregan are both Zambian but played for wales and australia respectively. I think its more about where you are raised and where you learn your trade as the country of birth can be misleading for example Jamie Healsip was born is Israel but is very much an Irishman

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Post by Cumbrian on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 11:59 am

People criticise England for importing players, but we export quite a few too. Often in positions where we need players, like in the second row. Jim Hamilton and Dan Touhy are two that come to mind and we're about to lose Tim Swinson to Scotland.
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Post by ebop on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 12:14 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: leinsterfan4life

Didnt you know that you cant play rugby in New Zealand unless you were born in Fiji or samoa.even Maoris have to come from Pacific Islands.
Guttered that manu tuialagi plays for England when he should be playing for the ABs. Terrible situation! Perhaps he didn't know he was eligible. What, he's not eligible because he moved to England as a kid and was educated there and brought up through the English rugby system? Damn, one that got away huh.
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Post by westisbest on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 12:50 pm

Dion O'Cuinneagain Ireland captain in 99 rugby world cup.

Clyde Rathbone - South African played for Australia.

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Post by Croyman on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 1:03 pm



then you have Ireland that doesn't even pick from all of the players that are Ireland qualified

who said the Irish were a bit dim

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 1:19 pm

I think its more about where you are raised and where you learn your trade as the country of birth can be misleading for example Jamie Healsip was born is Israel but is very much an Irishman

Similar with ROG and Corbisiero being born in America and the old favourite of Shaw being a Kenyan despite his English parents only living their whilst working and sending him to an English boarding school based in Spain.

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Post by dummy_half on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 2:49 pm

Sam
That's the problem with people saying you should only represent the country of your birth - people move round for any number of reasons, and occasionally you get anomalies like Heaslip being Israeli (or John McEnroe a German).

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Post by Bathite on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 2:55 pm

I've got mates who have SA parents, but they 'moved' to the UK when the mum was 5 months pregnant, so she could give birth to them in England. Meant that they can travel back and forth to SA a lot easier and travel round Europe freely (whole family speak french)

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Post by Biltong on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 2:58 pm

COuntry of birth doesn't mean much to me, as dummy says plenty of kids are born in a Kumquat their parents are only residing in for a short period of time.

You look at andrew Mehrtens, he was born in SA from NZ parents and at a young age moved back to NZ, so that is where he grew up, that is the culture he will embrace, and I have no problems with anyone representing a country in that manner, it is certainly very logical.

I also have no problem with a person who is born in a country that has vey little going for them in regards to rugby development, then moves to another country where he gets serious proper training at his highschool and develops into a rugby player in that manner.

But it bugs me when players who have already established themselves as potential star rugby players, who gets offered contracts in other countries and then after being developed by his home grown system, rejects it to represent his adopted country.

The reality is though, no matter how I feel about it, it isn't going to stop.
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Post by Bathite on Thu 12 Apr 2012, 3:05 pm

It used to annoy me a lot, but now I'm older and wiser, I'm more philosophical. I look at it as a job, rather then sport. If I player wants to work abroad then fine and if they get the opportunity (either by getting much better, or by being surrounded by a relativer lower quality of player) to play int rugby, then why not. Don't get three lions tattooed on your arm and don't feel obliged to sing the national anthem, but as long as you have pride in your performance and a will to win, that's fine by me.

The issue that I have is when these 'foreign' players get picked ahead of local talent. I would have been really upset if Waldrom got picked. Yes, we struggled for alternatives, but either go with Easter or give someone a pop a la Morgan and that worked out ok for now.

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People Playing for other countries Empty Re: People Playing for other countries

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