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Post by cherriesfna on Thu 10 May 2012, 3:07 pm

for i while i have wondered why everyone is techinquly better than us
and aftere refering U11-U13 games i realised
we arnt training kids right
what is the point of putting 22 11 years olds on a full size pitch with full size goals
all you need is to be able to kick the ball resonably hard and you are instantly the best player on the field
kids learn no technique only that by lumping it up to the strong fast kid will win you game, (which it does)
what are kepper supposed to learn while ball are constanly flyning above there reach over there heads.
what we need to do is unil at least U14 level play at max 8 a-side on small pitchs to develop techinque and passing ability, not who can kick the ball the hardest.
my 2 cents
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Post by nasisillmatic on Thu 10 May 2012, 3:25 pm

I agree with you 100%.

Kids should be playing on 5 aside pitches playing 2 touch football for the majority of childhood.

English players do not like getting the ball unless they are in space.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Thu 10 May 2012, 4:14 pm

Think you've over looked a massive part of learing the game on the content and further afield as well mate, they play alot of Futsal which teaches you to pass move at great speed and small spaces.
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Post by Liam on Thu 10 May 2012, 4:48 pm

u10's play 5-a-side with maximum of three touches per player, must pass at least five times before shooting.

11-15 year olds play on half pitches with medium sized goals.

16+ full size.




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Post by Duty281 on Thu 10 May 2012, 4:53 pm

I remember once reading in a newspaper, if Messi was English, he would have been rejected from our special talent schools because he isn't tall enough. Now that really is farcical!

Sadly reforms to the English game won't happen until we make a clean sweep of the FA - the majority of whom still believe the game is played in the 70s, 4-4-2 and smash it long ball.

Patrick Viera wrote in his autobiography that while teams like Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Brazil etc. are better than us technically, England makes up for it in intensity. Is that enough? Of course it is.
We'll win Euro 2012 by our intensity, passion and will-to-win. Come on England!

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Post by The Special Juan on Thu 10 May 2012, 6:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
We'll win Euro 2012 by our intensity, passion and will-to-win. Come on England!

Laugh
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Post by Crimey on Thu 10 May 2012, 7:12 pm

I remember once reading in a newspaper, if Messi was English, he would have been rejected from our special talent schools because he isn't tall enough. Now that really is farcical!

That actually happened at River Plate, they rejected him because of his size.

I think the problem is, and I remember this from when I was around 10-11, playing quick touch football on a smaller pitcher will less players was never as much fun. It wasn't like what you saw on the TV, which is why you played football after all. That will always be a problem.

England have been trying to keep up with other countries technically since 1954 when they were thrashed 7-1 by Hungary, the same problems that were talked about then, are still being talked about now. It's become a part of our culture, we should perhaps embrace it and try and play to our strengths rather than try and be Spain.

It's sad, but we're more likely to get somewhere if we become the Stoke of the footballing world rather than Arsenal, because our players are trained closer to the Stoke way.

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Post by cherriesfna on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:24 pm

[quote="Crimey"]
we should perhaps embrace it and try and play to our strengths rather than try and be Spain.
.

its hard to embrace being played of the park by better teams
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:28 pm

[quote="cherriesfan"]
Crimey wrote:
we should perhaps embrace it and try and play to our strengths rather than try and be Spain.
.

its hard to embrace being played of the park by better teams

So surely we should play to our strengths to at least give us a bit of hope? Rather than trying to match them were we are much much weaker
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Post by cherriesfna on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:34 pm

[quote="ollyrules"]
cherriesfan wrote:
Crimey wrote:
we should perhaps embrace it and try and play to our strengths rather than try and be Spain.
.

its hard to embrace being played of the park by better teams

So surely we should play to our strengths to at least give us a bit of hope? Rather than trying to match them were we are much much weaker
we are only weaker because of the way we raise our youngsters. if we decided tobuild techninque rather than find the biggest and best we migh match them,
u saw what hapened when we played the spanish.
we won, but that was a fluke
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:36 pm

[quote="cherriesfan"]
ollyrules wrote:
cherriesfan wrote:
Crimey wrote:
we should perhaps embrace it and try and play to our strengths rather than try and be Spain.
.

its hard to embrace being played of the park by better teams

So surely we should play to our strengths to at least give us a bit of hope? Rather than trying to match them were we are much much weaker
we are only weaker because of the way we raise our youngsters. if we decided tobuild techninque rather than find the biggest and best we migh match them,
u saw what hapened when we played the spanish.
we won, but that was a fluke

Well yes I agree that we need to change our style a bit but that will take many many years around 20 years to come into full effect (players coming through the system). SO for the moment just stick to what we do well and that is showing grit and passion and playing at a high tempo
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Post by Crimey on Thu 10 May 2012, 8:46 pm

You don't HAVE to play the same way as Spain, and it's certainly not the only way of winning football matches, it just looks prettier.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:29 pm

Crimey wrote:You don't HAVE to play the same way as Spain, and it's certainly not the only way of winning football matches, it just looks prettier.

clap clap clap

Efficiency > Aesthetically pleasing
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Post by The Special Juan on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:43 pm

ollyrules wrote:

Efficiency > Aesthetically pleasing

Which is why Germany will win the Euros.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:45 pm

TSC wrote:
ollyrules wrote:

Efficiency > Aesthetically pleasing

Which is why Germany will win the Euros.

It is also why Norwich > Swansea
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Post by Liam on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:52 pm

Yes but if you notice, Spain play that way but actually produce a final product, which is why they are defending European champions and current world cup holders and ranked no.1 side in the world.

England don't have the players with the technical ability to play the 'Spain' way. They need to make use of their speed and athleticism, Which means getting the full backs forward, midfielders getting into the box whenever possible, and plenty of crosses to make the defenders uneasy.

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Post by monty junior on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:56 pm

Didn't Scotland win the last time they played?

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Post by lorus59 on Fri 11 May 2012, 10:52 am

Spain's way of playing has proved to be the most efficient as they are wining European Championships and World Cups. What has England won with their style of play?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 May 2012, 11:30 am

Martin Samuel who writes for the Times, I think, has been campaigning for smaller pitch sizes for years. Playing on such big pitches with size 5 footballs so young simply encourages the 'hoof' game. If you force kids to play on small 5-7 a-side pitches and ban the ball from going over head height it will force them to play a slicker game where ball control, passing and movement are more fundamental.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 11 May 2012, 11:35 am

Do you really want to play tippy tappy nonsense though?
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Post by lorus59 on Fri 11 May 2012, 12:04 pm

It is not tippy tappy nonsence. It is being in control of the ball and the match. Your opponents cannot score if you have the ball. Too often British (and Irish) teams cannot keep the ball for very long. You hoof a ball, it's 50/50 if you are going to retain possession.

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Post by liverbnz on Fri 11 May 2012, 12:16 pm

Simon Kuper is the author of a book called 'Why England lose'. It's a pretty good read and has you pretty much nodding in agreement the whole way through.

One issue with the British game that irritates me is that physicallity generally rules over technical ability. You go down to any amatuer match, under-age or whatever and you'll hear big cheers and "that's it, get stuck inda'em" for big ugly defenders clattering through the back of someone. Yet if someone produced a bit of skill, maybe a nutmeg or something to beat a player or 2 and open up a bit of space for his team, that's likely to be met with "show-off", "none of that nancy stuff" or "poof". So effectively, we're discouraging the people we really shouldn't be. If something works and is proven to be effective in the right situations, then why ridicule it?

And it's a vicious circle, as the more the grass roots opt for big ungainly physical forwards (for example), then teams will prefer big ungainly physical defenders in order to cope with the forwards. And it goes on and on.


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 11 May 2012, 12:24 pm

TSC wrote:Do you really want to play tippy tappy nonsense though?

And that attitude/response neatly sums up why England is such a failure.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 11 May 2012, 12:25 pm

lorus59 wrote:It is not tippy tappy nonsence. It is being in control of the ball and the match. Your opponents cannot score if you have the ball. Too often British (and Irish) teams cannot keep the ball for very long. You hoof a ball, it's 50/50 if you are going to retain possession.

Ok, I'll retract a bit of what I said. Barcelona's football is tippy tappy nonsense, maybe a mix of tippy tappy stuff and being more direct instead of passing it about the penalty box for 10 minutes.

And Top Hat, I'm not English so I really couldn't care less.
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Post by monty junior on Sat 12 May 2012, 5:26 pm

Well it's work pretty well for Barca..

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Post by Ent on Sat 12 May 2012, 6:56 pm

I'm not sure it is as easy as just changing attitudes.

A lot of clubs now provide mini soccer for children 10 and under on small pitches like you suggest as well as having national schools of excellence (in N Ireland anyway). Yet to see a wave of amazing players appear.

Also if we are all honest at that age part of the attraction of being in a team is to play with proper goals and a proper pitch - may as well just keep playing in the street.

There was also another school of thought going around at one point here that dozens of kids playing in congested street games or lunchtime games made the odd guy who could dribble and shoot but no one could pass the ball when they started playing organised football.

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Post by Jennifer1984 on Sun 24 Jun 2012, 4:40 pm

The problem with any radical change to the system of training young players is that it is likely to be between 10 - 15 years before it brings about significant improvements, and football in England is about success NOW.

The English do not have the patience to wait for a generation of players to emerge, who have been taught by the more enlightened continental methods.

We demand immediate success, even though we know we aren't going to get it. The FA know the demands of the fans, and so they allow the status quo in the schools and youth clubs to continue in the hope that one day, we might just get lucky and put together enough decent results, back to back, to actually win something. In the meantime, we'll just keep telling ourselves that we have the best league in the world and conveniently ignore the fact that our league is only is good as it is, because it is full of the players that kick our butts when they put their national team's jersey on.

The FA, like all "politicians" live in the here and now. They don't like instituting programmes that they aren't likely to be around to take the credit for, when they come to fruition.


.

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Post by GSC on Sun 24 Jun 2012, 11:09 pm

You know, despite all this debate about technical ability etc...

The inability to convert from 12 yards seems to be what keeps beating us.
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Post by gboycottnut on Mon 25 Jun 2012, 6:36 pm

"why the spanish brazilians and just about everyone (execpt scotland) are better than us"

Simple really, many of the successful teams in international football have excellent technical ability to control and pass the ball, whereas English players only know one way to play football and that is to use a brute power type of football system which relys on players who are fast runners.

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