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Post by polished_man on Tue May 15, 2012 10:50 am

Someone said that the Madrid Masters is the pet toy and circus created by a bullying megalomaniac and It is ugly to its core. And what ****** her off more than anything is that we as spectators only get to see the top players ply their craft on clay from April to June for around 5 tournaments. Serbia and Nice are not supported, so the clay court specialists come into their own only around five times in a full season. Five times!! That being the case, why do they have to tinker about with one of them?? And she was being polite in using the word, "tinker". What is the purpose of all this buffoonery??? Interesting how Rafa said that how would it go down if Cincy's surface was changed to grass right before the US Open? Does this pathetic tournament benefit any single player in the preparation for the French Open? Do spectators go there and think its one of the best tennis experiences they are ever likely to have??


And on a final note. You know that equally ugly, foul - but yet very fitting - trophy that Tiriac's had made for the tournament winner. You know, the one that looks like something you would order on-line from a very dodgy sex shop for use in things where the imagination does not want to go. Yeah ... she'd like to stick it where the sun don't shine, and I know to whom


Last edited by polished_man on Wed May 16, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by lydian on Tue May 15, 2012 11:41 am

I feel your pain polished!

Actually, I agree.
The clay season is short..and now not sweet.
There are a plethora of HCs (6 x HC Masters!) to tamper with...leave the clay alone. Clay is clay...not pseudo-carpet. Yes, change the colour perhaps, but leave the dynamics alone.

As I said, I rather have Hamburg than Madrid anyway...Hamburg was a 'proper' clay test. Madrid is just a test full stop and now has become an oddity, a rich man's play thing. Next year we'll have flourescent glow in the dark balls with night matches played without lights. Whilst Tiriac watches from afar on his 500ft yacht for fear of being boo'ed again.

I'll not comment on the trophy, but Mr Federer looked pleased with the MIB suit handed to him by Will Smith...and Smith spoke in spanish too, is there no limit to that man's talents?
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Post by polished_man on Tue May 15, 2012 11:50 am

Yes, Lydian mate. You know what? I'd prefer a proper Hamburger to that horrible, horrible looking glittering stick handled in Madrid Hug
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Post by barrystar on Tue May 15, 2012 12:12 pm

lydian wrote: change the colour perhaps, but leave the dynamics alone.

As I said, I rather have Hamburg than Madrid anyway...Hamburg was a 'proper' clay test

I agree - Tiriac may in fact be onto something with the colour but the integrity of the surface is key. Clay should retain its essential characteristics, but if some clay surfaces are a little different to others that's not a bad thing, but I accept that it would be sensible for any changes to progress logically to RG, which is what the US hardcourt season does for the USO.

Interesting what you say about Hamburg - proper clay test or not it was undoubtely treated as something of a poor relation by Rafa in 2005 & 2006. In 2007 he was knackered, and he was fresh in 2008 because of the early exit from Rome. I think that the reality is that if a player has a decent chance of making the finals of every clay tournament he plays in (i.e. Rafa), 5 clay tournaments would involve too many matches in what is now the clay season, and since 2005 Rafa has more frequently than not had at least one event which he either 'tanked' or did not attend out of Barcelona and the 3 clay TMS events - the exceptions are 2007 and 2009 (need I say more). If he has a good 'reason' for not attending Madrid that sits much better with his historic scheduling needs - there is also the altitude too.
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Post by lydian on Tue May 15, 2012 12:19 pm

Good points barry. And of course Federer was no mean slouch at Hamburg either.

What's funny is that Rome used to be the "fast" clay event, with Hamburg the slow one...and MC/RG somewhere in the middle (RG > MC though). Hamburg provided a different type of test, your technique had to be so strong to win through when the ball was moving as slowly as it did there.

Now they've gone ridiculously fast at Madrid so the whole thing is just disjointed. It simply doesnt make sense to have an ultra-fast event in the middle of a clay season which is already short enough. Madrid at altitude provides a faster surface anyway, it didnt need any 'extra' help by effectively turning into a fast HC with a Teflon coating!
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Post by Henman Bill on Tue May 15, 2012 12:45 pm

A bit torn on this. Rome feels like "proper clay" after Madrid and it doesn't feel right Madrid in a way so fast. On the other hand I think the tour as a whole is too slow, we need more fast and this kind of compensates for the too-slow Wimbledon and US Open.

Anyway just stick Madrid before Monte Carlo somewhere after Miami and Davis Cup, maybe the week after Casablanca or even before. Problem solved. Also, Madrid would be cooler at that time.

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Post by lydian on Tue May 15, 2012 12:52 pm

Not a bad solution HB. Although I would rather they just made Madrid slower. There are plenty of HC Masters to speed up...stodgy IW being one for a start.
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Post by hawkeye on Tue May 15, 2012 2:48 pm

polished_man

You talk a lot of sense and in the circumstances your politeness and restraint is much to be admired...

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Post by polished_man on Tue May 15, 2012 3:50 pm

Absolutely my friend. I had to keep my self control in check while I was writing such diplomatic, yet bold and frank article.
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Post by socal1976 on Tue May 15, 2012 6:27 pm

Concur completely, this was a silly move by tiriac taken without properly consulting the players or with any type of real time testing. He deserves the criticism he is receiving. A very good post by the original poster. And the trophy is gaudy and ridiculous, although there seems to be a plethora of really stupid looking tennis trophies on tour right now. The indian wells tourney used to give a whale statue.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas on Tue May 15, 2012 6:32 pm

Who cares whether or not it benefits them for RG, still have Rome and MC for warm up. Wimbledon only has 2 warm up tournaments too.
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Post by Haddie-nuff on Tue May 15, 2012 8:49 pm

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/simon-reed/blue-clay-cannot-return-173133172.html

This is the latest article from Simon Reed... I know how you all respect and appreciate his opinions Whistle but in this instance he has virtually echoed what I have already posted regarding Rafa playing on his home turf. So I applaud him

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Post by reckoner on Tue May 15, 2012 9:34 pm

I wonder what Ollie Reed would have been like as a tennis commentator.

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 6:16 am

Hello everyone, just to restore equilibrium to the exaggerated chaos of the blue clay, let’s put aside the counter-productive song of sore-losers and
sour-grapes. The poetry for the king of kings is much MUCH more rewarding, as seen
in the post I cited below for all to share. We'll start from the beginning, from the perspective of the WINNER. Here you go and enjoy:


"Let’s put into perspective what happened.

They accidentally created a new surface: blue clay. Federer came in
cold, off a six-week layoff, and mastered the new surface in a week. His
was a truly pioneering effort.

The blue clay was fast, like a hard court. But it was still possible
to slide on it, like clay. So it was a weird hybrid. All the shot
selection and footwork was scrambled.

Most players failed to learn the intricacies of the new surface and
fell away. By natural selection, two players made the final: the natural
(Berdych), who by sheer chance was totally at home on the blue clay,
and the most versatile player in the game (Federer), who was able to
adapt to the unfamiliar conditions.

With the exception of Federer, I think Berdych would have taken all
comers on the blue clay. It seems tailor-made for him the way the Monte
Carlo clay is for Nadal. By instinct, he knows exactly what to do on it.
Nadal had better thank his lucky stars that RG is not played on the
Madrid blue clay, for he would be fortunate to win seven games against
Berdych.

The signs that Berdych was a blue-clay natural were everywhere: when
everyone else was talking about how hard it was to move on the blue
clay, Berdych was saying that he felt really confident.

His serve was very effective, and his already dangerous returning was
enhanced, he allowed his opponents five games on his way to the semis.
Three times in the tournament, Berdych’s opponent served for a set
against him, and each time he broke back.

The surface even compensated for his weakness, his defense. His
footwork was good enough that he could still move well and slide to
retrieve balls he couldn’t get to on hard courts.

He was like a shark cruising in the blue water, and his opponents
were like unskilled swimmers blundering into his domain and getting torn
apart as they floundered helplessly in the alien element. Even Del
Potro, strong as an ox and very mentally tough, eventually succumbed.

So Federer was not facing the usual Berdych, he was facing a Berdych
in his natural domain, which I believe accounted for the extreme
closeness of the result.

The match was historic: the first men’s final ever fought on this new
surface. The contestants more than rose to the occasion, putting on a
blue-clay masterclass. Not only did they play well, they used the novel
properties of the surface to full advantage!

If they keep using the blue clay (and if it plays the same as it did
this year, which may not happen), future coaches will be studying videos
of this match to teach their charges how to play on it.

The world #1 and the King of Clay claimed it was impossible to move
and defend on the new surface; Federer and Berdych proved them utterly
wrong.

Both men glided beautifully on the blue clay, and at times came up
with some remarkable gets. By the end of the match, Federer was getting
in some great clay-court counterpunches, sliding into the ball and using
Berdych’s pace against him after moving Berdych around and eliciting a
carelessly struck ball.

Through all difficulties: the strange new surface, Layani’s careless
umpiring (in addition to that bad call on the drop shot, he also awarded
the first point to Berdych when Federer served for the match, when it
should have gone to Federer), an opponent who was a natural on the blue
clay, Federer remained steely.

Truly impressive to me was his serving during the early part of the
third set. Somehow he came up with exactly the right serves, even on
second serves, to stave off Berdych’s lethal returning on multiple break
points. Somehow after only a week of play he understood exactly how the
ball would behave on the blue clay, how it would take the kick or the
slice. For it was not by chance or Berdych’s mental weakness that he
avoided an early deficit in the crucial decider.

His own returning was brilliant, and he produced it at the most important times to break for the last two sets.

He displayed all his variety, the short slice to bring Berdych to
net, the loopy and short-angle balls to get Berdych off balance,
everything. I particularly remember a deep chip he hit down the line,
when Berdych thought he was going to slice it crosscourt. It struck the
baseline for a clean winner, right behind the completely bamboozled
Berdych, and the crowd erupted.

At all the most important junctures he made the right choices of
shot, and since no blue clay playbook existed before this tournament
began, he was improvising the whole time!

He did what no one else could have done, and hauled the shark out of
the water and onto dry land after a titanic struggle. He outplayed the
natural on his home surface and mastered the alien element that the
other elite of the game dismissed as an insuperable obstacle, showing
total confidence on a surface that no one in history had ever played on
before last week.

Next to the other milestones in Federer’s storied career, this may be
a comparatively minor one. It is not a Grand Slam and it gets him to
#2, not #1. But we should still give it the full appreciation due to it
and reflect on its significance.

By accident, they created a new playing surface and Federer responded
as only a true pioneer and innovator can: blaze a new trail in the
wilderness.

Where Nadal and Djokovic saw a barren blue desert, Federer saw only a
new challenge to be conquered, a new spur to greatness. And he met the
challenge and achieved another pinnacle of greatness.

For he IS the master of all surfaces, past, present, and future." Courtesy of "Steve".








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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 7:23 am

What ARE YOU on thumbsdown

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 8:15 am

"A Bad Workman Blames His Tool". Enough said. Rolling Eyes

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Post by prostaff85 on Wed May 16, 2012 8:15 am

Thanks CommonSense I enjoyed reading that!
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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 8:27 am

CommonSense wrote:"A Bad Workman Blames His Tool". Enough said. :roll:

Oh thats what it was -- : : Well why couldnt you say that in the first place... It got lost amongst the Federer worshipping : :yikes:

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Post by lags72 on Wed May 16, 2012 8:42 am

From my own reading of it H-n there seemed to be as many - if not more - good things said there about Berdych as there were about Federer.

All too easy, I'd say, to slate a post just because it's a lot longer, and better-written than some of the more pithy one-liners that many of us (myself included !) are, at times, inclined to contribute.

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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 8:58 am

Well lags you may be right Im not used to seeing someone take the time to write a post as long as that about Nadal or Djokovic unless its to slate them off... pardon my cynical appraisal (or realistic depending on your view point). I have read many reports about the blue clay and the only one that comes out squeeky clean is Federer. No surtprise there then. I still side with Simon Reed on this one .. sorry for any offence none intended.

But there is another saying "give me the tools and Ill do the job!" OK

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 9:02 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:
CommonSense wrote:"A Bad Workman Blames His Tool". Enough said. Rolling Eyes

Oh thats what it was -- : : Well why couldnt you say that in the first place... It got lost amongst the Federer worshipping : Madrid Master or Pet toy circus? 1230366233

Too bad that you lost the plot.

Here I'm forced to add that my original post is meant for mature and thinking readers. Others not up to the task need not bother. I'm not here to be your English teacher. How about doing all the and reading and finding the way yourself? Rolling Eyes

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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 9:13 am

And that kind of response wins friends and influences people does it ??
Well your post by me meant for mature thinking readers its a shame that you dont try be a little more mature and thinking yourself

I actually wrote in lags post sorry for any offence none intended.

Try a little humility you might find it good for the soul


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Post by lags72 on Wed May 16, 2012 9:41 am

H-n : with respect you must have slipped into a habit of selective-reading !

If you truly believe that lengthy posts/articles have never been written about Nadal or Djokovic "unless it's to slate them off" .... well may I suggest that you check out some of the material on the previous 606, and indeed v2 also. Nadal and Djokovic have both been glorified at length by many, many posters, I can assure you. Plus, there were members on the old 606 (and here too) who have made it their life's work to slate off Murray and Federer. The fact is that all four players have come in for praise and criticism, none of them escape it.

What I've always found quite bizarre and incredibly childish is the strategy adopted by certain posters of attempting to build up their own favourite player(s) by constantly denigrating another Rolling Eyes. For me it never makes sense and invariably has the opposite effect of what was intended. But then that's a whole other topic, I guess ......

I'm hesitant to get involved in the verbal sparring between yourself and the OP but I guess he was upset by your somewhat dismissive comment (7.23am). But then I agree that CommonSense could have chosen better words (9.02am).

Meanwhile - thanks for the apology, H-n, happily accepted OK

Think I've said my bit on this one, time to move on.

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 9:44 am

Well at the risk of another telling off Haddie, perhaps it would have been better to have apologised to the OP for slating their post out of hand rather than lags.

FWIW I thought the OP was rather well written, nice one CommonSense!

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 9:46 am

And lags as ever brings sense to the situation. I agree - CommonSense perhaps your response to Haddie was a little harsh also... the sun's out let's all try to get along! thumbsup

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 11:04 am

An interesting read. I think we can summarise than Berdy likes faster courts so Madrid was to his liking. Federer played excpetionally well, for me it was his serve that won the match getting him out of awkward moments at 0-30, 15-40 several times.

I suspect HN disagrees with the bit about Djokovic and Nadal seeing it as a barren desert, not so much the bits about Federer. In some respects we're stating the obvious here....they play a different game to Federer, their movement more than other players is so much more explosive off the ground (they are the 2 fastest movers on tour) and they use the outwide spaces for retrieval more than any other player. When the surface was slippery this undermined their movement off the blocks and outwide, so it ruined their confidence with the surface and their ability to compete at their best. To be fair they were against the surface befroe they even arrived, so mentally they werent in the right place to begin with and we know Nadal's coach was against him entering but Nadal felt he owed it to Madrid. Then playing on it fully confirmed their dislike. Federer instead knuckled down and used his sevre to great effect on the surface and wasnt as affected movement-wise.

I think we can view Madrid 2012 as pretty much a one-off. We know the surface will never be like that again so in some respects the result is an anomaly...abit like the event itself really given we're meant to be in the middle of a traditional clay season.
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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 11:19 am

Well understandably the OP is proud of his favourite player's achievement and what he's getting at and bigging up is that Fed proved more versatile than Nadal and Djokovic on the strange, slippery new surface. Not really that controversial - we all knew how talented the guy is.

As for Nadal and Djoker being against the new surface - well if it was such a concern perhaps they should have tried practicing on it? laverfan posted a link or two showing that they had the opportunity to do so but didn't take it up.

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 11:28 am

I agree they probably could have adapted better but clearly they felt strongly that the surface was an abomination and so didnt want to have to adapt to it as it wasnt good prep for Rome and RG.

We dont need to get into a Fedalovic debate here...they play the game differently, we know that. We also know Federer takes the ball really early and hits flatter, so with his more aggressive serve he adapts really well to faster surfaces as he doesnt need to rely on movement to quite the extent the others do. He can just hit right through the ball very early so less of them come back. I have to say it was a marvel watching Fed play at Madrid...he seems to be able to take the ball earlier than ever before and his BH to me is the best its ever been at the moment...its almost stronger than his FH and less errors from it.
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Post by lags72 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:38 am

You do wonder just how much more time is now spent hitting BH's on the practice court under the watchful eyes of Annacone, than would have been the case had he never joined the Fed camp.

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 11:45 am

lydian rest assured the last thing I want is a Fedalovic "debate"!

I don't understand Djakal on Madrid though - with a bit of practice they could have done a lot better at Madrid, but they didn't do the prep and yet still played. I would have done one or the other, either say "this isn't good preparation for RG" and skip it or think "I'm going to play my heart out and impress all those models"

It's probably not as simple as that, but to an outsider like me the sort of halfway house approach they took doesn't make sense.

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 11:46 am

Agree lags...I think he focused on that and the serve. Just like he did with Sampras Wink
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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 11:47 am

lags72 wrote:You do wonder just how much more time is now spent hitting BH's on the practice court under the watchful eyes of Annacone, than would have been the case had he never joined the Fed camp.

Anything to get out of changing nappies...

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 11:49 am

Yep...but then I wonder if they were paid HUGE appearance money by Tiriac to turn up as well? For Nadal, as he's got a big exhibition coming up soon in Madrid he may also have felt obliged to turn up in the city but clearly his heart wasnt in it. For Novak, the reasons why he turned up are less clear...maybe he felt going into Rome would be too long a gap after missing Belgrade...or maybe he felt he could adapt...who knows. But as I say I bet they were paid 7 figures sums to just turn up there...
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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 11:56 am

it makes sense I spose but then if they'd got that much surely they wouldn't have slated Tiriac afterwards to the extent they did? they must have reaaaly hated playing on it! ah well as you say it's an anomaly... I'm sure Madrid will be more normal next yr.

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Post by lags72 on Wed May 16, 2012 11:59 am

Well the consensus on that point reckoner seems to be that Nadal decided not to skip Madrid because he didn't want to 'let down' his adoring Spanish fans. Slightly different situation for Djoker, given that he was not on home turf.

In these situations I can't help but think back to Jimmy Connors. Not always my favourite player but a guy who - once he walked on to court - never gave less than 100%. Played each point as though his life very depended on it. Absolutely hated to lose, whatever the tournament, but would blame himself when he did. Hence the all-time record of 109 singles titles I guess ....... Wink

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 12:01 pm

And on a final note. You know that equally ugly, foul - but yet very fitting - trophy that Tiriac's had made for the tournament winner. You know, the one that looks like something you would order on-line from a very dodgy sex shop for use in things where the imagination does not want to go. Yeah ... I'd like to stick it where the sun don't shine, and I know to whom

For once a trophy that has more than one use.

I wish other events would follow suit OK

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 12:03 pm

legendkillarV2 wrote:
And on a final note. You know that equally ugly, foul - but yet very fitting - trophy that Tiriac's had made for the tournament winner. You know, the one that looks like something you would order on-line from a very dodgy sex shop for use in things where the imagination does not want to go. Yeah ... I'd like to stick it where the sun don't shine, and I know to whom

For once a trophy that has more than one use.

I wish other events would follow suit OK

I'd think twice before biting it that's for sure! lol

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 12:09 pm

lags72 wrote:Well the consensus on that point reckoner seems to be that Nadal decided not to skip Madrid because he didn't want to 'let down' his adoring Spanish fans. Slightly different situation for Djoker, given that he was not on home turf.

In these situations I can't help but think back to Jimmy Connors. Not always my favourite player but a guy who - once he walked on to court - never gave less than 100%. Played each point as though his life very depended on it. Absolutely hated to lose, whatever the tournament, but would blame himself when he did. Hence the all-time record of 109 singles titles I guess ....... Wink

I totally agree about Connors, we used to love to hate Connors when we were kids - but determination he had by the bucketload!

Fair enough for Nadal to play then but don't get it with Djokovic... ah well what would life be without mystery...


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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 12:10 pm

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
And on a final note. You know that equally ugly, foul - but yet very fitting - trophy that Tiriac's had made for the tournament winner. You know, the one that looks like something you would order on-line from a very dodgy sex shop for use in things where the imagination does not want to go. Yeah ... I'd like to stick it where the sun don't shine, and I know to whom

For once a trophy that has more than one use.

I wish other events would follow suit OK

I'd think twice before biting it that's for sure! lol

It's a massive plus.

Imagine Nadal biting on it and thinking "yuk I won't want to win that again" Lol

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 12:18 pm

laughing

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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 12:25 pm

Before Im requested to apologise to the OP perhaps you would like to check this out.

this and I quote
-----------------------
The Madrid Masters is the pet toy and circus created by a bullying megalomaniac. It is ugly to its core. And what ****** me off more than anything is that we as spectators only get to see the top players ply their craft on clay from April to June for around 5 tournaments. Serbia and Nice are not supported, so the clay court specialists come into their own only around five times in a full season. Five times!! That being the case, why do they have to tinker about with one of them?? And I'm being polite in using the word, "tinker". What is the purpose of all this buffoonery??? Interesting how Rafa said that how would it go down if Cincy's surface was changed to grass right before the US Open? Does this pathetic tournament benefit any single player in the preparation for the French Open? Do spectators go there and think its one of the best tennis experiences they are ever likely to have??


And on a final note. You know that equally ugly, foul - but yet very fitting - trophy that Tiriac's had made for the tournament winner. You know, the one that looks like something you would order on-line from a very dodgy sex shop for use in things where the imagination does not want to go. Yeah ... I'd like to stick it where the sun don't shine, and I know to whom

Unquote
----------------------------------

is ENTIRELY the work of Wooffie taken from an article she wrote on her blog
Cut and paste

So if I apologise to anyone it will be to her.

censored polished man

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 12:29 pm

Shocked haddie!
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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 12:30 pm

Check it lydian I tell you no lies...

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 12:35 pm

It is true Haddie.

Just checked.

What a randy mare! Laugh

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 12:37 pm

Looks like also that HE may have copied the pic of him holding a fish from there too.

Some secret Woofie fans I see!

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Post by lydian on Wed May 16, 2012 12:37 pm

I know haddie, just seen it...and I know polished_man wrote earlier in this thread

polished_man wrote:Absolutely my friend. I had to keep my self control in check while I was writing such diplomatic, yet bold and frank article.

hmmm, poor show p_m...
Funnily enough I do look at that blog pretty often but had missed that one!
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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 pm

ooops I meant CommonSense where I've said "OP" above, sorry!

As for the OP - he's a plagiarist and should be poked with pointy sticks!

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Post by Guest on Wed May 16, 2012 12:43 pm

I actually feel for CS for writing that massive post. Doh

However this thread has made me think about trophies in a wider context. chin

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Post by Haddie-nuff on Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Yeah I wouldn´t mind but I was instructed to apologise.
Well I make no secret of being a Wooffie fan LK I am a member of her forum and post very very occasionally some of my friends on their go back to the Rafa thread on 606 and I have remained in touch with them on a personal level.
My alliegance to the Rafa fans remains loyal. My view of Rafa is from a different perspective thats all. But I think polished man owes her an apology for being so deceitful

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Post by reckoner on Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Imagine the embarrassment at A&E...

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