Will Gatland restore "Karma equilibrium" and right the wrong of Clive Woodward?

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Post by welliamwibb on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 5:42 pm

I was so disappointed that Woodward tried to prolong his RWC dream when he took a tour party of 87,000 and 98% of them were English. I was even more shocked that the 2 best NH players at the time (Shane Williams and Gavin Henson) were given the biggest 2 fingers ever seen in international rugby.

I would love to see Gatland pick an almost entirely Welsh XV just to make amends, but I guess 2 wrong don't make a right etc etc..

HOWEVER... I really can't see it happening, but if Wales can win another Six Nations on the bounce then they would have a very good argument to play a strong part in a lions XV.

I don't think any of the NH teams are particularly good at the moment. I think Wales' bogey team next year will be Ireland. A fourth consecutive loss for Ireland v Wales would be unthinkable and they have a good record in Cardiff. I don't think Ireland will challenge for the 6N next year but I do see Wales in the top 2.

If the Lions were picked now I think these would be certainties to start (injury permitting)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out **
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden

8 Welsh
2 English
1 Irish
1 Scot
3 up for grabs

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 5:51 pm

That's not a bad side. Personally I'd go with
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out ** - O'Connell if fit - plus captain
6. Ferris if fit
7. Ross Rennie is the form 7 this week, Sam Warburton if POC isn't captain
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips - just. If they opt to try for quicker ball then Cussiter/Blair
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden

And they'd lose to a full strength Aussie team by 5-10 points.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 5:52 pm

Will Sam Warbutton even be fit by then?

Wont Gethin Jenkins be playing in France?

Mike Phillips? Realy?

I understand what you are saying. But lets wait untill neare the time, before we start trying to pick a team.

Besides if you are picking players that are playing for Wales now, then remeber North is injured. Again.

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Post by welliamwibb on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:08 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:That's not a bad side. Personally I'd go with
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out ** - O'Connell if fit - plus captain
6. Ferris if fit
7. Ross Rennie is the form 7 this week, Sam Warburton if POC isn't captain
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips - just. If they opt to try for quicker ball then Cussiter/Blair
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden

And they'd lose to a full strength Aussie team by 5-10 points.

I thought the same thing about Phillips. He wasn't too clever on Saturday, but there is nobody better ATM.

I chose Lydiate ahead of Ferris, not because he's Welsh but because he's a tackling freak.

George North should be ok for 2nd test. He would play on if his arm was ripped off he would call it a flesh wound and nothing serious.

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Post by mckay1402 on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:14 pm

he'd just grow another
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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:16 pm

welliamwibb wrote:
I thought the same thing about Phillips. He wasn't too clever on Saturday, but there is nobody better ATM.

I chose Lydiate ahead of Ferris, not because he's Welsh but because he's a tackling freak.

George North should be ok for 2nd test. He would play on if his arm was ripped off he would call it a flesh wound and nothing serious.

Ferris is an equal tackler and better round the pitch,he'll be 6 injury permitting.

For someone so tough North goes off injured a lot,he's a good player but don't drool over him so much.

I think Tuilagi and Cuthbert are far from nailed on,they're in with a shout but they have competition.

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Post by Morgannwg on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:18 pm

Ireland won't cause us much trouble for a while. They're going from bad to worse. Their first team is good but a few injuries to players like POC, BOD, anyone in the front row and they're back up sh it creek. England and France will cause us the most difficulty.

As for the Lions tour, I've been saying for a while that Scotland will get a larger and fairer representation than they have had on the previous two tours. They will be providing a fair few back 5 players, plus their halfback pairing with a couple other backs. I think the strength of the four nations in the back-row (especially at 6) may see Lydiate miss out.
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Post by sirBiggles on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:21 pm

welliamwibb wrote:If the Lions were picked now I think these would be certainties to start (injury permitting)

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out **
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden


Disagree at 15.... You have to include Halfpenny, a game winner...

Maybe Ian Evans at 5, and Ryan Jones is showing some great form and able to cover 2nd and back row so have to consider his comeback ....

But apart from that a good call...

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Post by welliamwibb on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:26 pm

I picked Foden because he's rapid and didn't want to look too biased. Halfpenny is also rapid though and a great finisher and it may be his boot that gets him into the lions xv.

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Post by Shifty on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:26 pm

Hmmm

15 Rob Kearney / Leigh Halfpenny
14 Tommy Bowe / George North
13 Brian O'Driscoll / Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts / Manu Tuilagi
11 Chris Ashton / Alex cuthbert
10 Johnny Sexton / Owen Farrell
9 Mike Phillips / Ben Youngs
8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones
5 Richie Gray / Donncha O'Callaghan
4 Paul O'Connell / Ian Evans
3 Adam Jones / Dan Cole
2 Rory Best / Ross Ford
1 Gethin Jenkins / Cian Healy

first team, and second team.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:27 pm

Kearney will be 15 unless something changes,the other 2 can challenge but they need to up their form or Kearneys will have to drop.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:31 pm

AlynDavies wrote:Hmmm

15 Rob Kearney / Leigh Halfpenny
14 Tommy Bowe / George North
13 Brian O'Driscoll / Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts / Manu Tuilagi
11 Chris Ashton / Alex cuthbert
10 Johnny Sexton / Owen Farrell
9 Mike Phillips / Ben Youngs
8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones
5 Richie Gray / Donncha O'Callaghan
4 Paul O'Connell / Ian Evans
3 Adam Jones / Dan Cole
2 Rory Best / Ross Ford
1 Gethin Jenkins / Cian Healy

first team, and second team.

I like this team but I thought North played 11?I'd have him there instead of Ashton and I think 1,13 and 8 are very close calls.I can't see how Ferris or SoB aren't in your squad but overall that's a pick I'd have few arguments with.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:32 pm

welliamwibb wrote:...
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. **No stand out**
3. Adam Jones
4. Richie Gray
5. ** No stand out **
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton
8. ** No stand out**

9. Mike Phillips
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Jon Davies
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Ben Foden

8 Welsh
2 English
1 Irish
1 Scot
3 up for grabs

Ridiculous selection. How the hell can you have Foden and Manu in when by next year Byrne and Henson will be back to their peak?
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Post by welliamwibb on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:34 pm

I would like to see a beast XV and a rapid XV backline

BEAST

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

Rapid

15. Halfpenny
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Jon Davies
11. Ashton
10. Farrell
9.Youngs


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Post by TJ1 on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:47 pm

there will be a few more scots in there. Blair and Cussiter are far better players at actually doing the core of the SH job - getting the ball away quickly and acuratly- Philips is simply too slow.

I expect a few more of the backs and back row to challenge as well altho the back row is an almighty contest with a dozen guys to chose from

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Post by asoreleftshoulder on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 6:53 pm

TJ wrote:there will be a few more scots in there. Blair and Cussiter are far better players at actually doing the core of the SH job - getting the ball away quickly and acuratly- Philips is simply too slow.

I expect a few more of the backs and back row to challenge as well altho the back row is an almighty contest with a dozen guys to chose from

Yeah there are about 4 options each at 6 and 8,to be honest it's probably an area where the depth of quality is so strong that Gatland can choose who plays based on the gameplan he wants to implement instead of purely on picking the absolute best players.

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Post by Bullsbok on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:06 pm

welliamwibb wrote:I would like to see a beast XV and a rapid XV backline

BEAST

15. Kearney
14. Cuthbert
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips

Rapid

15. Halfpenny
14. Bowe
13. BOD
12. Jon Davies
11. Ashton
10. Farrell
9.Youngs


a 34 year old BoD is not rapid Whistle Ireland would be better off playing Keith Earls at 13 and retire BoD already
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:19 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Will Sam Warbutton even be fit by then?

Wont Gethin Jenkins be playing in France?

Mike Phillips? Realy?

I understand what you are saying. But lets wait untill neare the time, before we start trying to pick a team.

Besides if you are picking players that are playing for Wales now, then remeber North is injured. Again.

Why does it matter if Jenkins is playing in France
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Post by Biltong on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:24 pm

AlynDavies wrote:8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones

Alyn you don't think much of the Irish backrow?
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Post by Morgannwg on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:30 pm

8 David Denton / Ben Morgan / Sean O'Brien
7 Sam Warburton / Ross Rennie
6 Chris Robshaw / Ryan Jones / Stephen Ferris

In no particular order, but that's the back-row I would go with! Couple unlucky to miss out like Lydiate and Strockosch.


Last edited by Morgannwg on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Biltong on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:31 pm

thumbsup
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:32 pm

Morgannwg,

Is O'Brien a better 8 than Healip or Faletau?

And for me the only way R Jons would get the nod over Lydiate is becuase of his versatility, Lydiate is head and shoulders far better 6 than Jones. But as I said its only my opinion.

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Post by Morgannwg on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 7:48 pm

You could argue that Ryan Jones is better than both on current form. I only put SOB next to 8 because there were too many I could put next to 6. Him, Jones, Denton and Robshaw are versatile across the back-row; Warbs and Rennie are the specialist opensides. Tips wouldn't be a bad option either mind!
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Post by Wi11 on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 8:41 pm


If I were picking tomorrow

Jenkins
Ford?
Jones
Gray
O'Connell?
Robshaw
Rennie
O'Brien
Phillips?
Sexton
North
Roberts
O'Driscoll
Cuthbert?
Kearney

However I would pick Marler, Care and Visser (for Cuthbert) if they can prove themselves at international level before next summer.

I think Robshaw, Rennie, O'Brien and Warburton are the pick of the back rows. Don't see any others as being quite as good. Warburton is left out on form (and because I couldn't pick all 4) but he could be back in as captain if Wales finish top of the home nations next year.





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Post by Liam on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 8:50 pm

1. Jenkins
2. Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Evans
6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. Morgan/Faletau/Heaslip can't decide who I'd start. Toby for the welsh back row, Heaslip is superb when on form and Morgan looks good for England, plus has played well for the Scarlets.

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. BOD
14. Cuthbert
15. 1/2p


Based on form at the moment and also combinations, that would be my starting 15.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 9:35 pm

"I chose Lydiate ahead of Ferris, not because he's Welsh but because he's a tackling freak."

Doh

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Post by TJ1 on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 9:41 pm

Not if he picks a team full of welshmen over better players from other countries.

Of the scots - gray / ford / denton / rennie should be in the team with Barclay, Blair, laidlaw, hogg, visser,murrey all with a chance

Just remember whos forwards put in the winning display against a SH team?

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Post by justified sinner on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 9:45 pm

Everyone is watching current form. Just for Scotland there's the killer B's all to come back. Who knows come the tour.

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Post by TJ1 on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:08 pm

Indeed - its a way away yet.

Its fun to speculate adn back row we have riches galore.

Its funny in the context of " right the wrong of woodward" to see team lists that so obviously contain a national bias


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Post by jeffwinger on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:32 pm

The strength in the back row is absurd, and some magnificent players wont even be on the plane. There are so many good options, in a very rough current order of preference:

6. Ferris, Croft, Lydiate, SOB, Wood, Haskell, Brown, Strokosch
7. Warburton, Robshaw, Rennie, Barclay, Tipuric
8. Heaslip, Denton, Morgan, Falatau, Jones

Any of those guys could be on the plane next year depending on form between now and then, I think they would probably all have got on most previous tours. Plus there may be young players we aren't even considering yet. So much quality.

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Post by Shifty on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:49 pm

biltongbek wrote:
AlynDavies wrote:8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones

Alyn you don't think much of the Irish backrow?


Why would I?

The Welsh beat them man for man, and the English crucified them, Hell they only just got the better of the Scottish! Laugh

Sorry but the Irish over rate their pack, your only as good as your results and at the top level of rugby and Ireland haven't been much good since 2010 at international level. Wales have got quite a few opensides who are much better than any Irish openside currently around. We stuck a lock at openside against Scotland and he stil put a better sift in than any Irish openside during the 6 nations.

I think Ireland need to learn how to scrumage and need to sort their back row out, or at least get the balance better because their only as good as their recent results.
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:53 pm

AlynDavies wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
AlynDavies wrote:8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones

Alyn you don't think much of the Irish backrow?


Why would I?

The Welsh beat them man for man, and the English crucified them, Hell they only just got the better of the Scottish! Laugh

Sorry but the Irish over rate their pack, your only as good as your results and at the top level of rugby and Ireland haven't been much good since 2010 at international level. Wales have got quite a few opensides who are much better than any Irish openside currently around. We stuck a lock at openside against Scotland and he stil put a better sift in than any Irish openside during the 6 nations.

I think Ireland need to learn how to scrumage and need to sort their back row out, or at least get the balance better because their only as good as their recent results.

The Irish back row edged NZ's on Saturday Alyn Whistle
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm

Laugh

So far you have only beat us once with the famous balanced back row of yours, who did so well against Australia (and the scottish back row managed to outplay them). Ferris made more tackles than Lydiate in the 6 nations by a fair bit, ignoring the Wales game of course where Lydiate was absent. O'Brien made the same number with less game time. The only 8 Faletau was better than in the 6 nations was Heaslip, so fair play there, Heaslip has been playing so well.. Btw, check the stats for the weekend to see how many tackles O'Brien made, and the amount that "captain tackles and unseen work" Lydiate made. Wink

BTW, our imbalanced back row did absolutely fine against NZ. O'Brien outplayed McCaw and the breakdown was an area of strength for us. So I am certainly not complaining. thumbsup

I like Warburton though! World class, but Rennie is certainly outplaying him right now.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 10:55 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:

The Irish back row edged NZ's on Saturday Alyn Whistle

I like sensible posters. thumbsup

The scottish back row also outplayed the Australian one. But of course, don't let the facts get in the way.

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Post by Shifty on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:02 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Laugh

So far you have only beat us once with the famous balanced back row of yours, who did so well against Australia (and the scottish back row managed to outplay them). Ferris made more tackles than Lydiate in the 6 nations by a fair bit, ignoring the Wales game of course where Lydiate was absent. O'Brien made the same number with less game time. The only 8 Faletau was better than in the 6 nations was Heaslip, so fair play there, Heaslip has been playing so well.. Btw, check the stats for the weekend to see how many tackles O'Brien made, and the amount that "captain tackles and unseen work" Lydiate made. Wink

BTW, our imbalanced back row did absolutely fine against NZ. O'Brien outplayed McCaw and the breakdown was an area of strength for us. So I am certainly not complaining. thumbsup

I like Warburton though! World class, but Rennie is certainly outplaying him right now.

Actually Wales have beaten Ireland in the last 3 games and if you remember Sam Warburton won everything in the first half and Justin Tipuric won even more in the second half the last time we played... Whistle

No disrespect to McnCaw but he probably had a puncture on his wheel chair the age he is now, Martyn Williams was a good openside back in the good old days too! Hug
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:06 pm

That isn't what I said though. What I said was that Wales didn't beat Ireland all three times with that famous balanced back row of theirs. In the first game, there was no Faletau. In the third game, there was no Lydiate, and no Warburton for a half. Ryan Jones was also the best of your back row in that game, so your argument doesn't really make any sense.

Yeah, McCaw has suddenly become a bad player when he plays against Ireland. He may lack the pace he once had, but he is still McCaw, and his rugby brain is no less important. Same way that O'Driscoll has lost pace and is still important. I don't think Martyn Williams can be compared with McCaw.. Laugh

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Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:06 pm

Rory this is a silly post of yours. Can you not understand that Lydiate does all the unseen work? Of course because its unseen we can't see it, so we have to take some posters word for it. Do you follow? It's interesting that the unseen work that Ryan Jones, Stephen Ferris or Sean O'Brien, who actually did outplay McCaw at Saturday to my amazement, is more noticeable. But if you can see what they are doing then they can't have been doing any unseen work. Therefore Lydiate must go because someone must do the unseen work that we can't see because we see other forwards doing work. Do you see?

I remember some fans being absolutely horrified that Joe Worsely was on the tour 'because all he can do is tackle'. Maybe he did all the same unseen work that Lydiate does. He must do because I could't see it then either.


Last edited by Hookisms and Hyperbole on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:06 pm

But sure, ignore all the facts that I just gave you. Whatever makes you feel good. thumbsup

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:09 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Rory this is a silly post of yours. Can you not understand that Lydiate does all the unseen work? Of course because its unseen we can't see it, so we have to take some posters word for it. Do you follow? It's interesting that the unseen work that Ryan Jones, Stephen Ferris or Sean O'Brien, who actually did outplay McCaw at Saturday to my amazement, is more noticeable. But if you can see what they are doing then they can't have been doing any unseen work. Therefore Lydiate must go because someone must do the unseen work that we can't see because we see other forwards doing work. Do you see?

I remember some fans being absolutely horrified that Joe Worsely was on the tour 'because all he can do is tackle'. Maybe he did all the same unseen work that Lydiate does. He must do because I can't see it.

How can I see such amazing unseen work though? I mean, it is unseen. Only Lydiate knows what he does. And all the welsh fans as well apparently. I guess we just don't understand bud.

And in all seriousness, what does separate Lydiate from Worsley? I genuinely want to know.

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Post by Biltong on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:11 pm

AlynDavies wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
AlynDavies wrote:8 David Denton / Ben Morgan
7 Sam Warburton / John Barclay
6 Dan Lydiate / Ryan Jones

Alyn you don't think much of the Irish backrow?


Why would I?

The Welsh beat them man for man, and the English crucified them, Hell they only just got the better of the Scottish! Laugh

Sorry but the Irish over rate their pack, your only as good as your results and at the top level of rugby and Ireland haven't been much good since 2010 at international level. Wales have got quite a few opensides who are much better than any Irish openside currently around. We stuck a lock at openside against Scotland and he stil put a better sift in than any Irish openside during the 6 nations.

I think Ireland need to learn how to scrumage and need to sort their back row out, or at least get the balance better because their only as good as their recent results.

Shocked sorry for asking, just wanted to know your reasoning. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Liam on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:12 pm

Lydiate is a superb player, he allows Warbs to do what he does at the breakdown. SOB is a monster but not a 7, Ferris is a world class 6 and is probably slightly ahead of Lydiate atm. Lydiate was superb against Aus imo, one of the few players in the pack to perform.

Can I just say, SOB has had a good game against NZ, but, he's still behind Warbs, Rennie and even Tupric.

Fact is though, the welsh back row is better balanced than the Irish one, that is why we have won the last 3 internationals against Ireland. Its not coincidence.


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Post by Hookisms and Hyperbole on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:12 pm

The difference between Worsley and Lydiate is Warburton. And on Saturday he was taken to school by Pocock, though he played quite well all the same. For all the squabbles here between Irish fans and Welsh fans it could well be that the strongest back row in a years time could include no players from either team. There's some serious competition in that back row.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:14 pm

martyr_94 wrote:Lydiate is a superb player, he allows Warbs to do what he does at the breakdown. SOB is a monster but not a 7, Ferris is a world class 6 and is probably slightly ahead of Lydiate atm. Lydiate was superb against Aus imo, one of the few players in the pack to perform.

Can I just say, SOB has had a good game against NZ, but, he's still behind Warbs, Rennie and even Tupric.

Fact is though, the welsh back row is better balanced than the Irish one, that is why we have won the last 3 internationals against Ireland. Its not coincidence.


How is it a fact though? Name me one 6 who doesn't do what Lydiate does? Or who doesn't support their 7?

So O'Brien who isn't a 7 managed to outplay one of the best back row combinations in the world? He must be talented..

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:15 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The difference between Worsley and Lydiate is Warburton. And on Saturday he was taken to school by Pocock, though he played quite well all the same. For all the squabbles here between Irish fans and Welsh fans it could well be that the strongest back row in a years time could include no players from either team. There's some serious competition in that back row.

This. And also the fact that Wales have 6 foot 4 centres and wingers, so the welsh back row have a LOT less work to do..

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Post by Morgannwg on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:20 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

And in all seriousness, what does separate Lydiate from Worsley? I genuinely want to know.

Lydiate is a better ball carrier and has been a success when playing on the open-side for Wales. He hasn't had to cover there since though now we have Warbs, Tips, Shingles and another promising U20 number 7 coming through Scarlets academy. Lydiate Chops then in comes the fetcher, that's how it goes...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

This. And also the fact that Wales have 6 foot 4 centres and wingers, so the welsh back row have a LOT less work to do..

Just a thought. Perhaps this is why the tackle/carry stats are in some cases skewed in Ferris/O'Briens favour, because Ireland don't have many backs capable of making a lot of tackles and being big ball carriers.
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Post by anotherworldofpain on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:21 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
martyr_94 wrote:Lydiate is a superb player, he allows Warbs to do what he does at the breakdown. SOB is a monster but not a 7, Ferris is a world class 6 and is probably slightly ahead of Lydiate atm. Lydiate was superb against Aus imo, one of the few players in the pack to perform.

Can I just say, SOB has had a good game against NZ, but, he's still behind Warbs, Rennie and even Tupric.

Fact is though, the welsh back row is better balanced than the Irish one, that is why we have won the last 3 internationals against Ireland. Its not coincidence.


How is it a fact though? Name me one 6 who doesn't do what Lydiate does? Or who doesn't support their 7?

So O'Brien who isn't a 7 managed to outplay one of the best back row combinations in the world? He must be talented..

O'Brien was awesome. Best 7 of the weekend in my mind. But I read this about the game and I wonder if is true.

"Ireland dominated possession early, held their own in the scrum and won the turnover battle game-long. But the tempo was all wrong for them, their defence was narrow and the cavalry was too late to key breakdowns. Where Ireland’s many turnovers generally came courtesy of kleptomaniac O’Brien reefing it out of rucks, New Zealand’s were the product of counter-rucking. At telling times, four or five All Blacks would march over the ball, producing clean possession for Aaron Smith to dispatch to an already advancing backline. Ireland picked pockets, New Zealand ransacked the house and fled with all the big ticket items."

Maybe about the back row combinator balancing and team than one individual?

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Post by Shifty on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:21 pm

biltongbek wrote:Shocked sorry for asking, just wanted to know your reasoning. Rolling Eyes

Well if were picking 2 from each position then we have a lot of possible candidates. The grand slam back row should pick itself, while Denton was the best no8 by a mile in the 6 nations. Ben Morgan is very, very powerful and normally takes 2-3 men to stop him. I'm not saying the Irish players are cráp but there are better players who specialise at certain tasks better than the Irish boys, they do all the basics well, but are not sensational at any one thing. The Irish seem to have 3 jacks of all trades but masters of none. Compared to Lydiate who is there for tackling, Sam is there to steal the ball off the floor and his speed etc.
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Post by Liam on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:22 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
martyr_94 wrote:Lydiate is a superb player, he allows Warbs to do what he does at the breakdown. SOB is a monster but not a 7, Ferris is a world class 6 and is probably slightly ahead of Lydiate atm. Lydiate was superb against Aus imo, one of the few players in the pack to perform.

Can I just say, SOB has had a good game against NZ, but, he's still behind Warbs, Rennie and even Tupric.

Fact is though, the welsh back row is better balanced than the Irish one, that is why we have won the last 3 internationals against Ireland. Its not coincidence.


How is it a fact though? Name me one 6 who doesn't do what Lydiate does? Or who doesn't support their 7?

So O'Brien who isn't a 7 managed to outplay one of the best back row combinations in the world? He must be talented..

I'll ask you the question, do you not rate Lydiate. He is a very good player. He has proven how good he is in the last 12 month for Wales. He may not smash players out of their way, but he rarely misses a tackle, almost a 100% completion rate almost every match so far for Wales.

SOB had a good match. Not denying that. However, he's still not a proper 7, he's learning his trade there atm and I'm sure he will improve. However, it was one match, yes it was against richie but he wasn;t the player he once was, he's entering the end of his career. Warbs, Rennie, Tipuric, Pocock and still Macaw are all better at 7 than SOB. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player, in the loose he is an unbelievable player and will only get better, which is quite frightening.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:23 pm

Morg, and that is exactly why the balance of the irish team as a whole, is not good. The back row is the scapegoat. Our back line is weak, we have no real guys to punch holes in defences, and therefore our back row have to do everything. Wales have 5 big carriers in their backs. Who do we have? None. Like I said, the breakdown was an area of strength against NZ, but we just could not penetrate the defence. A back row can only be balanced if the rest of the team is balanced also.

I think Lydiate is a poor ball carrier, and it is something he has to work on to compete with the best 6s.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:29 pm

AlynDavies, surely you do not believe what you said.. so O'Brien is not a spectacular carrier, one of the most devastating around? I think he has already proven he is. Ferris is a spectacular tackler, and I genuinely do not see how Lydiate is any stronger than him in that area one bit. He knocks players back, putting us on the front foot, and he rarely misses. Same as Lydiate. He is also a huge ball carrying option, he has a fantastic offload, and adds bulk to the pack.

Martyr, I do not rate Lydiate nearly as highly as the welsh do. If you ask me, I think it is the welsh pundits who have done Lydiate a favour more than anything, using buzz words such as "unseen work". Jonathan Davies must have pointed out every single tackle that Lydiate made in the 6 nations. Yet Ferris made even more than Lydiate, and O'Brien made the same amount with less amount of game time.

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