Westwood & the elusive first major

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Post by Seanusarrilius on Mon 18 Jun 2012, 3:49 pm

So, another good challenge from our Lee ends with a Sunday tail off. No issues with it, course was beastly and many other top names did the same. But at 39, are we ever going to see the big W in the major column that Westy deserves?

Monty couldn't do it, and it still irks me. Garcia seems to have fallen by the weigh side in recent years too.

Majors are so competitive now, and as this weekend shows, it is not just the big boys in the mix.

Stars like Donald, Westwood and even Rose are all yet to win one and I worry that as a career develops into it's prime like Westwood’s has, then perhaps they have built up some psychological walls in their own minds.

Darren Clarke should give them all hope, of course, but really hope Westwood can bag one in next couple years.

Which of our top golfers do we think will get there, eventually?

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Post by Seanusarrilius on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:38 pm

This thread lit up, haha

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Post by Skydriver on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 1:04 pm

Not entirely sure why this thread is quiet, but I'd guess that people are a bit tired of debating the topic - rather like Mayweather v Pacquiao perhaps.

Still, I can offer my own views on English players [I would extend to "British Isles", but all examples which spring to mind are English anyway; Scots/Welsh aren't quite there yet, and the NI chaps have already all won a major!].

For my money, Lee and Luke "should" do it. Both have taken world #1 spot, lost it and re-taken it - you can argue about how it's calculated, but this proves how well they have performed over meaningful periods relative to their peers. They are the only players to have held that ranking and not won a major, I believe.

You could make a case for Justin Rose, who has won big events (e.g. a PGA Tour playoff and a World Golf Championship). Controversially, you might put Ian Poulter forward - WGC winner (albeit matchplay format), runner up to Padraig in 2008 Open. I reckon Paul Casey at his best is probably better than either of those two, although I can't recall anything comparable to WGC or runner-up in major in his CV - and obviously he has had a terrible run with injuries.

Is it a mental thing? Must be at least partially, but I think any of the above should be able to handle the pressure. [I know some people disagree though of course]

I think luck plays a fair part though - in the sense of hitting supreme form over an entire week for those specific times in the year, plus also the odd fortunate bounce (or unfortunate bounce for challengers).

So at the end of the day, "deserve" or not, they still have to perform to win. The point will continue to be debated for each of these guys until they either bag a big one or stop playing...


Last edited by Skydriver on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 1:56 pm

All of them have the game to do it I think but it's more than that. They need their A-game that particular week, will always need a bit of luck and need everyone else to be worse than them that week. Those stars don't align that many times in anyone's career.

If they put themselves in position enough times they'll at least maximise their chances and if they never win one, well, that's life I guess.
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Post by Shotrock on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 2:17 pm

I predict Luke or Lee will win one this year. Do they deserve it? No more or no less than any golfer that pushes their tee into the turf that Thursday. Both, however, have massive game (so to speak) and good things seem to happen to players playing at high levels.

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Post by Skydriver on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 2:21 pm

Following a somewhat random trail of breadcrumbs, I note that Lawrence Donegan has said a few words about Westwood deserving a major in what appears to be his final piece for the Guardian. Sounds like he has been sacked, leaving them with no specialist golf correspondent (just like most of the other newspapers then!). Hope he continues to write for Golf World, as his column is often hilarious.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/18/us-open-webb-simpson-graeme-mcdowell

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Post by Bob_the_Job on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 3:25 pm

From Donegan's column:

"However, perhaps Lee Westwood has a greater right than anyone to believe he is owed one of the sport's biggest prizes."

I hope for his sake Lee is not thinking like that..."right" and "owed" do not come into it.

Iain Carter had some interesting and valid points about the course set up in San Fransico, in particular the 18th on the last day, that I hope someone in the USGA listens to.
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Post by Shotrock on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 3:40 pm

Here's the thing about Carter's comment on making the 18th a fairly direct par but a near impossible birdie: He's 100% correct IMO.

USGA to listen? No chance.

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Post by John Cregan on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 4:06 pm

Agree on the 18th, it was ridiculous.
Probably why Harri went at the pin!!

Do i think Westwood will win a Major....no im afraid, i don't think he would be able to keep it together if leading coming down the stretch - too much pressure has accumulated on him through the years....................although, he was very very solid with the putter all week

Luke Donald - less of a chance IMO - don't have a particular reason, just don't fancy him to do it

Hope im wrong on both..................

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Post by Tinmar on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 4:14 pm

While Ian Carter may have had a point about the 18th hole, I wouldn't share his overall views on the event. He and Lawrence Donegan both seem to believe that last year's event was much fairer and simply better than 2012. I would completely disagree. Last year was significant due to Rory's big win but, as a viewer, I thought this year was a far more entertaining spectacle.

I also think that this year was a far better examination of the type of qualities I would expect a Major Champion to have in order to prevail. The rain last year allowed the players to simply fire at the flag like most regular events. That is not what I want to see in a US Open. If every year was like 2011, the event would lose its current aura fairly quickly.

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Post by Seanusarrilius on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 4:41 pm

I think Lee might get the Open. Don't see Donald or Rose winning one anytime soon tbh. But then, they may well do so.

Sorry if this is much debated. I'm a reg on the boxing side, but love me golf

Lee has to bag one in next two ro three years IMO, otherwise it may become too much of abarrier for him to overcome.

If Pulter ever wins one, I think it will be British.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 5:01 pm

any american/pga player in the top 100 can win one a major- many majors arent different enough to the usual pga tour(harder yes but a similar envioroment)

Majors are just another event- its only the pressure that elevates them from many pga events or wgc events.

Its all about how mentaly tough and what form a player is on on that given week.

The english are developing a bottlers tag though. It is getting to them more than any other- its not just hype(plike our footballeres etc)- they are really good, but there are just not doing it when it matters.

The british open on the other hand can possibly be won by anyone. the conditions change so much during the days play- it can have a dramatic affect on the field. Its a lottery most years.. and is sadly(although the best golfing event) not what i would call the best test to find the champion golfer.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 5:34 pm

Certainly not when they play it on rubbish courses like TOC.
Time to hold it on a non links and give tradition the middle finger.

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Post by Seanusarrilius on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 6:14 pm

mystiroakey wrote:any american/pga player in the top 100 can win one a major- many majors arent different enough to the usual pga tour(harder yes but a similar envioroment)

Majors are just another event- its only the pressure that elevates them from many pga events or wgc events.

Its all about how mentaly tough and what form a player is on on that given week.

The english are developing a bottlers tag though. It is getting to them more than any other- its not just hype(plike our footballeres etc)- they are really good, but there are just not doing it when it matters.

The british open on the other hand can possibly be won by anyone. the conditions change so much during the days play- it can have a dramatic affect on the field. Its a lottery most years.. and is sadly(although the best golfing event) not what i would call the best test to find the champion golfer.

Got to love th eIrish, no bottlers there

Mcdowell bagged one at 30
Mcilroy came back from his Masters disaster to bag one the same year and still a kid
Harrington powered through 3, and don't care if Woods missed tow of them
Even Darren Clarke managed to snag one in his forties

North or South the Irish have been amazing of late

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 6:29 pm

the irish(both) are a different league to the english in the majors..

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Post by super_realist on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 7:07 pm

I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.

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Post by John Cregan on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 7:08 pm

Leprechaun

twas pure looook..........................

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Post by John Cregan on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 7:16 pm

super_realist wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.

Are you Scottish,? Before i start i just want to make sure!!

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Post by super_realist on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 8:52 pm

Only by an accident of birth. Not something I care for or am proud about.

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Post by incontinentia on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:04 pm

super_realist wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.
Well I have to say, I think that you are a very rude man.
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:07 pm

Blimey, that probably should have been signed off Disgusted from Tumbridge Wells

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Post by john manly on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:05 pm

Westwood will always continue to flatter to deceive in the majors for as long as he insists on gaming those ridiculous clubs from Ping... The brand revered by hacks, old gits & weirdos.

Until he decides to man up & game some real forged blades from a proper manufacturer, his mindset will always be that of a hack.

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Post by john manly on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:19 pm

If not, look in a mirror, grab the skin on your cheeks & stretch it as wide as possible! Westwood & the elusive first major 3602195817

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Post by Fader on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:30 pm

Have to say as much as I'd like to see it, I don't ever see Westwood winning a major. Just don't think he has it in him around the greens when it counts in the majors.

Luke I think can do it, all he needs is a decent first round then he's dangerous, I actually think Rose is the one potentially of the English lads to bag one first though, not sure why I just think he has it in him.

I don't think being born in Ireland has anything to do with why the Irish have more in recent years, kind of like saying Faldo won more years back because he's English! Imo heritage is irrelevant it comes down to hard work, bit of luck and just keeping it going when it matters. After all would McDowell be heralded as US Open winner if DJ hadn't had a complete mare! Or Clarke if the weather had been better at RSG.

I'm not saying they were outright lucky because to win one you have to put yourself in position to, just saying they didn't do that because of their place of birth.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm

Fader wrote:Have to say as much as I'd like to see it, I don't ever see Westwood winning a major. Just don't think he has it in him around the greens when it counts in the majors.

Luke I think can do it, all he needs is a decent first round then he's dangerous, I actually think Rose is the one potentially of the English lads to bag one first though, not sure why I just think he has it in him.

I don't think being born in Ireland has anything to do with why the Irish have more in recent years, kind of like saying Faldo won more years back because he's English! Imo heritage is irrelevant it comes down to hard work, bit of luck and just keeping it going when it matters. After all would McDowell be heralded as US Open winner if DJ hadn't had a complete mare! Or Clarke if the weather had been better at RSG.

I'm not saying they were outright lucky because to win one you have to put yourself in position to, just saying they didn't do that because of their place of birth.

sorry i am abit confused- who has said it was to do with a place of birth

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Post by detones on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:13 am

Seanusarillas as a moderator I would expect that you would not allow the crass and offensive anti Irish comments be posted in a thread you created. I can take potatoe munching, over drinking, broke ass leprachan comments. But comments on bomb planting and hunger strikers cross the line. They are too sensitive a topic to be mocked at and in all places a golf forum.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:21 am

Golf doesnt get modded mate. Personally it doesnt bother me one iota, even tho occasionaly it gets abit like play school- however on the other boards certain behaviour would be cut out straight away!

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 6:34 am

detones wrote:Seanusarillas as a moderator I would expect that you would not allow the crass and offensive anti Irish comments be posted in a thread you created. I can take potatoe munching, over drinking, broke ass leprachan comments. But comments on bomb planting and hunger strikers cross the line. They are too sensitive a topic to be mocked at and in all places a golf forum.

Everyone should be able to take a joke about their country. I worry about people who get offended by such trivial ribbing. other countries have had far worse to deal with than the oirish, but then again its a politically and religiously immature country who like the scousers love a joke unless its directed at them so perhaps faux offence is to be expected from a country which segregates which road their children are able to take to and from school and who have silly men pointlessly and provacatively marching.
A bit of urine extracting is justified.

Now, where's me lucky charms?

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Post by hend085 on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 9:00 am

john manly wrote:Westwood will always continue to flatter to deceive in the majors for as long as he insists on gaming those ridiculous clubs from Ping... The brand revered by hacks, old gits & weirdos.

Until he decides to man up & game some real forged blades from a proper manufacturer, his mindset will always be that of a hack.


he tops the GIR and Total Driving stats regularly. this is a ridiculous statement to make

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Post by detones on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 9:02 am

super_realist wrote:
detones wrote:Seanusarillas as a moderator I would expect that you would not allow the crass and offensive anti Irish comments be posted in a thread you created. I can take potatoe munching, over drinking, broke ass leprachan comments. But comments on bomb planting and hunger strikers cross the line. They are too sensitive a topic to be mocked at and in all places a golf forum.

Everyone should be able to take a joke about their country. I worry about people who get offended by such trivial ribbing. other countries have had far worse to deal with than the oirish, but then again its a politically and religiously immature country who like the scousers love a joke unless its directed at them so perhaps faux offence is to be expected from a country which segregates which road their children are able to take to and from school and who have silly men pointlessly and provacatively marching.
A bit of urine extracting is justified.

Now, where's me lucky charms?

As stated previously I can take a joke about my county. But the nature of the joking in this thread went over the line. Thanks for worrying about people like me who get offended at such "trivial ribbing". Unfortunately there is nothing trivial about the insinuation all Irish people are bomb planters, and knee cappers. There is nothing trivial about mocking a political protester Bobby Sands who died whilst on Hunger Strike. I am not displaying faux offence, I am genuinely offended and I believe justifiably so.

Sure while you’re at it super why not tickle a few feathers with the South Africans, you could ask Els and Player how many slaves they own. A bit of gentle ribbing with the Germans, a few Nazi jokes for Kaymer perhaps? I believe Corey Pavin is Jewish, maybe a few light hearted Gas Chamber references would go down well. Sure were only having a laugh, no need to get offended. Can’t you take a joke about your Country or People??

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Post by Skydriver on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 10:38 am

I agree that society at large seems to have become oversensitive - but even I think that the line has been crossed here.

As a member of this community though (albeit a fairly minor one), I would ask us not to let this matter get out of hand like things did last year.

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Post by Fader on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:15 am

John Manly, I too don't get your point about Westwood manning up by using blades! Tee to Green imo no better player in the world.

The clubs you use don't make you a man or better player its how you use them.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:22 am

Behave people.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:25 am

Fader.

I doubt he gets it either. Obviously Cabrera, Oosthuizen, Calcavecchia and Watson (Bubba) need to 'man up' a bit too; and that's just of their current Tour players who've won Majors.
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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:38 am

To be fair fader Real men use blades. But then even i use taylor made MB's these days... - westy is getting on though BUT....Pings- bahhhh.

All the same the fact westy is the best ball striker in the world- fact thumbsup

even if he is one hell ova flake

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Post by Bob_the_Job on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:47 am

super_realist wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.

Although I'm Irish, I sort of have to agree - I'm not sure it's possible to imply there is some sort of national gene that makes us major winners and the latest crop of English, Scottish and Welsh players born losers (as if being English, Scottish or Welsh is not a big enough burden to carry Wink )

I guess standards of coaching, comeptition and training at the junior level might be one common factor across all the Irish players, but to say that then makes you win a major 10, 15 or 25 years later seems like a bit of a stretch. Statistically we have punched well above our weight though, that can't be argued with.

The more likely difference is that the English press and players in particular put a lot/too much pressure on their players/themselves to win.
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Post by Fader on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 11:58 am

Real men are comfortable with themselves and whatever they use, people with egos will only use what they think people will look more manly. The art of being a real man is being yourself and comfortable in yourself without thought of how others perceive your manhood!!!

Its not a man sausage measuring contest but using what's best for the job in your own hands!

Now where's my ruler and my cavity backs!

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:00 pm

yeah i was kinda trying to lighten the mood. But yeah i agree with ya thumbsup

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:07 pm

on a seperate but related note -I do think juniours should start of with blades. I think it improves ball striking thumbsup

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Post by McLaren on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:09 pm

Super

This will shock you but I almost feel like I should defend you in this case. I have very little time for those that are religious and even less for those who fight over it. And as for nationalism, well I hold a special place of hate for people who bang on about that particularly destructive nugget.

However, you should maybe have avoided a sweeping generalisation of a massive group of people. The average person in Ireland probably feels the same way you do, in fact probably more so, and will have felt serious disappointment about the “troubles” – it always makes it sound like a playschool fight – which were certainly not trivial.

Do you ever consider making a point in a way that comes of as reasonable and worth listening to?
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Post by John Cregan on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:46 pm

super_realist wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.

DeTone, Where is the reference to hunger strikes and bomb planting??

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:50 pm

Looks like a couple of posts were deleted John but both references were made.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

John Cregan wrote:
super_realist wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with being bog trotting, knee cap smashing, lucky charm searching tatty munching leprechauns though.
Just coincidence.

DeTone, Where is the reference to hunger strikes and bomb planting??
Moderated....
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Post by John Cregan on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:01 pm

Cheers, We should move on so............

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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by detones on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:07 pm

John, I think they have been removed. I for one am open to a good debate on any topic and would hate to see pointless censoring of a point of view no matter how stupid, irritating or obscure an argument is. I believe however in this thread a line was crossed from wumming and winding up to vulgar and offensive.

I don’t usually post a whole lot on here. I do however check in quite regularly and the poster who caused me offence is actually one of those personalities on here I find very articulate and enjoyable to read. They are usually great to stir up a good debate which is the point of this forum. I have seen them use impeccable logic and reasoning to make their case in an almost enjoyable surely, passive aggressive style. However the tone and content used in this thread was out of order in my opinion.

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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

detones wrote: the poster who caused me offence is actually one of those personalities on here I find very articulate and enjoyable to read. They are usually great to stir up a good debate which is the point of this forum. I have seen them use impeccable logic and reasoning to make their case in an almost enjoyable surely, passive aggressive style. .

Thats odd, I thought it was Super who made the offensive remarks.........

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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by McLaren on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:12 pm

detones

It is hard to believe you are referring to anyone other than me, but it was not I who made those comments!

And it certainly isn’t super.
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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by Slowride on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:28 pm

Has super been banned then?

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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by mystiroakey on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:30 pm

McLaren wrote:detones

It is hard to believe you are referring to anyone other than me, but it was not I who made those comments!

And it certainly isn’t super.

funniest thing i have heard in a long time! laughing

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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

Post by McLaren on Wed 20 Jun 2012, 1:34 pm

No one has been banned, we are just trying to work out who the articulate and logical poster is.

The comments they made had to be removed.
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Westwood & the elusive first major Empty Re: Westwood & the elusive first major

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