Origin - Could we do this in Wales?

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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:37 am

I've just witnessed yet another amazing Origin game out here in Australia...

The support and passion is only surpassed by the quality, brutality and intensity on the field...

Could we do this in Wales?

A welsh East v West could IMO be immense, I'm sure that there may be changes to the HC soon and something like this could plug a little hole. As long as it was played by the best of our nation, I can't see how it couldn't be a success...

Imagine the teams that could be on offer...the match ups...the step up in play to see our internationals play domestic games, maybe not for our regions, but in Wales all the same!!




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Post by thebluesmancometh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:18 am

It's not a bad idea at all, the Swansea Cardiff varsity games tend to draw huge crowds, now I know it's not the same but it does have an East West feel to it.

Wales west would look like...

Jones
Rees
Jones
AWJ
Evans
Shinglar
Tipuric
Jones
Webb
RP
North
Beck
JD2
Stoddart
Williams

and East...

Hobbs
Dacey
Andrews
Davies
Sidoli
Lydiate
Warbs
Falatau
Williams
Tovey
Cuthbert
Roberts
Riley
Harries
1/2p

That'd be a decent match up IMO, Wests tight 5 would dominate, but Easts backrow may go a way to make up for that.

I could definately see that happening once a year, draw huge crowds in the MS, and be a great day out, maybe a week or 2 before the 6N starts?!

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Post by doctornickolas on Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:40 am

I have always thought we could do this, have a 3 game series played throughout the season.

Bluesman, it is about your Origin, Ie where you are from so I think your teams are a bit out.

Matthew Rees, Stoddard, Ryan Jones, Ian Evans would all turn out for the East team under the rules.

Halfpenny would turn out for the West.


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Post by thebluesmancometh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:13 am

That would make things really confusing and difficult.

Matthew Rees packing down against Owens?

Shinglar, Cuthbert and Falatau wouldn't be allowed to play would they?!

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:35 am

In the dim and distant passed there use to be game against East, West, Gwent ,North etc
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Post by sheephead on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:04 am

What do you think would be classed as the middle between East and west. Adam Jones is from abercraf in powys??

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Post by Guest on Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:44 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:East...

Hobbs
Dacey
Andrews
Davies
Sidoli
Lydiate
Warbs
Faletau
Williams
Tovey
Cuthbert
Roberts
Hughes
Prydie
1/2p


I've changed Hughes for 13 and Prydie for the wing. Front row very weak though.

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Post by glamorganalun on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:27 am

doctornickolas wrote:I have always thought we could do this, have a 3 game series played throughout the season.

Bluesman, it is about your Origin, Ie where you are from so I think your teams are a bit out.

Matthew Rees, Stoddard, Ryan Jones, Ian Evans would all turn out for the East team under the rules.

Halfpenny would turn out for the West.


I was going to correct the players for the East, also H Bennett from Ebbw Vale, I Gough, Andrew Bishop form the hole with a mint in it, Mathew Morgan born in Reading which is closer to east Wales!. You could include Gethin Jenkins and Gav Henson for East and Hook for the west, a big improvement over RP.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:32 am


For an origin type annual contest to work in Welsh rugby union, it needs to be founded on a contentious grievance from the past, thats where it gets its aggression and intensity from.

Is there anyting in Welsh rugby that meets that prerequsite? I dont know.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:56 am

Risca Rev wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:East...

Hobbs
Dacey
Andrews
Davies
Sidoli
Lydiate
Warbs
Faletau
Williams
Tovey
Cuthbert
Roberts
Hughes
Prydie
1/2p


I've changed Hughes for 13 and Prydie for the wing. Front row very weak though.

Front 5 weak let alone front 3
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Post by boomeranga on Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:58 pm

I love State of Origin for holding onto the original representative sport idea. It's the last big domestic sport contest we have where the teams are still tied to us. Like most countries I'd think, most of our domestic teams have lost the local player connections they were built on, and there is something special about having players actually from your part of the country representing you against the villians from somewhere else. International sport is great, but in the 80's and 90's we still had the more intimate rivalries to rile us as well.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:30 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:That would make things really confusing and difficult.

Matthew Rees packing down against Owens?

Shinglar, Cuthbert and Falatau wouldn't be allowed to play would they?!

Shingler was born in Swansea! However;

15 Hallam Amos (Stockport, England)
14 George North (King's Lynn, England)
13 Jon Davies ( Solihull, England )
12 Hanno Dirkson (Krugersdorp, South Africa)
11 Alex Cuthbert (Gloucester, England)
10 Matthew Morgan (Reading, England)
09 Joe Bedford (Leeds, England)

08 Toby Faletau (Tofoa, Tonga)
07 Joe Bearman (Truro, England)
06 Danny Lydiate (Salford, England)
05 Michael Paterson (Christchurch, N Zealand)
04 Ian Nimmo (Harlow, England)
03 Peter Edwards (Shrewsbury, England)
02
01 Dan Way (Swindon, England)

So the above list is a side that are (will be) welsh qualified players that would not have be able to play in the Origins game!!!! Pinning down where someone is from is hard enough to do when picking internationals, but to try and carve somewhere as small as wales into east and west and doing it without having someone form the east in the west side or the other way round is impossible.

Also when people are talking about the regions and where there borders should be they class Bridgened as 'west' along with Swansea etc. So surely that should count when doing the East V West sides? (personally West id Dyfyd and anything else is North or East)


Last edited by ScarletSpiderman on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:31 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Team Entered In Full (Bar Hooker); Forgot Alex Cuthbert)
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Post by jimlewtheblue on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:04 pm

I think the lads that were born outside of Wales, should state whether they are East or West... it is pretty bvious that JD2 is goingto be west and the Cuthbert would be East.

I have picked the East team on the basis of Bridgened to Cheptsow, represents East. I definately think that West would have a stronger side.

15. Liam Williams
14. Leigh Halfpenny
13. JD2
12. James Hook
11. George North
10. Rhys Priestland
09. Mike Phillips
01. Paul James
02. Ken Owens
03. Adam Jones
04. Alun-Wyn Jones
05. Aaron Shingler
06. Josh Turnbull
08. Rob McCusker
07. Justin Tipueric

16. Richard Hibbard
17. Rhodri Jones
18. Craig Mitchell
19. Lou Reed
20. Tom Smith
21. Gareth Davies/Richie Rees
22. Dan Biggar
23. Tom Prydie/Aled Brew

EAST
15. Jason Tovey
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Andrew Bishop
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Tom James/Harry Robinson
10. Nicky Robinson
09. Lloyd Williams
01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Mattew Rees
03. Scott Andrews
04. Bradley Davies
05. Ian Evans
06. Dan Lydiate
08. Toby Faletau
07. Sam Warburton

16. T Rhys Thomas
17. Rhys Gill
18. Eiffion Lewis-Roberts (St Aspah, NE Wales)
19. Luke Charteris
20. Ryan Jones
21. Rhys Webb
22. Matthew Morgan
23. Morgan Stoddart/Tom Isaacs/Hughes

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:25 pm

Jim - Prydie is from Portcawl, Lou Reed is from Treorchy.
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Post by chewed_mintie on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:31 pm

The Origin isn’t about where you are born, though that plays a part. It is where you played your first game of senior RL. In the case of Greg Inglis, he is NSW born, but he plays for Qld.

However, the Origin has murkied the waters recently as they seem happy to take in anyone now from outside the traditional Qld/NSW boundaries ie NZers.....it’s a bit of a joke in my humble opinion re selection these days.

But you cannot doubt the quality of the contest whatsoever


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Post by chewed_mintie on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:34 pm

The Greg Inglis saga:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Inglis#Controversy

should be playing for NSW!

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:35 pm

chewed_mintie wrote:The Origin isn’t about where you are born, though that plays a part. It is where you played your Junior RL. In the case of Greg Inglis, he is NSW born, but he plays for Qld. Why? It’s where he grew up and played the game.

However, the Origin has murkied the waters recently as they seem happy to take in anyone now from outside the traditional Qld/NSW boundaries ie NZers.....it’s a bit of a joke in my humble opinion re selection these days.

But you cannot doubt the quality of the contest whatsoever

So in Wales it would be what region you made your first appearance for? So West would be Osprey/Scarlets (in red and black) and east would be Blue/Dragons (in blue and yellow).
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:21 pm

SS,

I know I may be wrong in assuming this but do you remember the old East, West Gwent, North games?

If so wasn't that how it worked then to in that you got picked for the side you were born, not neccessarily palyed for at the time, or as age really addled my brain.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:28 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

I know I may be wrong in assuming this but do you remember the old East, West Gwent, North games?

If so wasn't that how it worked then to in that you got picked for the side you were born, not neccessarily palyed for at the time, or as age really addled my brain.

I don't remember them, although I remember that the whole region of origin thing was brought up when we went regional, and to be honest the whole thing go so messy (as in who belongs where etc.). Don't the English do their counties rugby down to place of birth?
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Post by bedfordwelsh on Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:46 pm

Yeah think so and thats how we use to do the old games.
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Post by jimlewtheblue on Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:50 pm

Cheers SS, but isn't Porthcawl west of Bridgend town?

Change Lou Reed for Dominic Day then Very Happy

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:40 am

jimlewtheblue wrote:Cheers SS, but isn't Porthcawl west of Bridgend town?

Change Lou Reed for Dominic Day then Very Happy

Dammit, your right. I didn't notice (or didn't really pay atention) to where you said east is Bridgend to Chepstow.
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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:48 am

It could be amazing and a genuine replacement for potential change to European competition if that all goes boobs up.

Three matches over the course of the season, starting off in our regional grounds and one in North Wales until we grow to all three at the Millennium maybe.

I just think this could be a massive opportunity to pit our guys against each other at a level of intensity up there with test match level...Merchandise, sponsors and income would be hug IMO as would potential on field benefits.

Imagine a the Warbs v Tips battle now...

First senior game is what I'd go for, whether it was for Swansea, Llanharan, Newbridge or Colwyn Bay...One line through the country...East v West...

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:52 am

Monkey - the idea is good but drawing one line through the country to divide east and west would not be easy. People from the East and people from the West have very diferent opinions of where that boundary lies.
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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:03 am

True, but it certainly wouldn't be the biggest of boundaries against it happening surely?

Tougher in the north, but down South would consist of which clubs come under which regions' umbrella...

I've been away for a while now, is the North still under the Scarlets' umbrella?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:19 am

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:True, but it certainly wouldn't be the biggest of boundaries against it happening surely?

Tougher in the north, but down South would consist of which clubs come under which regions' umbrella...

I've been away for a while now, is the North still under the Scarlets' umbrella?

The North asked the Scarlets to be allowed to be themselves, and they now have the age grade region of RGC1492 (I believe that is what it is called).

But down to the boundaries thing for the south being easy, you must be joking. That was one of the major flaws in regionalism. People class Bridgend as west, it is nowhere near being west, Swansea is not even west (it is central). Being from the far west it seems like folk on here (and in general) think the country stops at the end of the M4.
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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:22 am

I'm from Swansea and always felt west...

Surely it's simple enough, if your club comes under the ScarletsOspreys banner, you play west.

The same goes for the Blues and Dragons...

It's a new concept, so old concepts shouldn't need to be involved IMO

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:37 am

I ain't being picky here, but if you get a map of Wales (on its own), then mark up each club that belongs to which region (red-scarlets, black-ospreyys, blue-blues, yellow-dragons) now draw a line that divides up the Scarlet/Ospreys from the Blue/Dragons and there is no way that the line is a fair division of East and West.
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:46 am

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:I'm from Swansea and always felt west...

Surely it's simple enough, if your club comes under the ScarletsOspreys banner, you play west.

The same goes for the Blues and Dragons...

It's a new concept, so old concepts shouldn't need to be involved IMO

That would seem simple to me - as an outsider it looks the most balanced. I assume there is a bit of a rivalry also? Smile

Where do you think the most logical place for the division to be Owain? Is it between Bridgend and Porthcawl or Porthcawl and Port Talbot-Swansea?

Strike a line up from there between Landovery - Brecon right through the middle of the Brecon Beacons... then up the spine of the Cambrians and exiting somewhere on the north coast - Bangor - Colwyn Bay or simply the border of Caenarfonshire and Denbighshire??

That would make it properly east-west geographically but not sure how people living in the north would want to align themselves in terms of rugby support east v west.

How's Lindfield Rugby coaching, btw? Just back from there this evening. Miserable and wet evening, isn't it?
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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:53 am

I'm not Lindfield Linebreaker, I'm Knox. No training tonight, time for a break, team meeting/dinner. Very productive on this dismal eve. What club are you with?

Im sure that there'd be a line through the country aligned with the old district system that could be easily addressed.

As long as the North was included - as in playing up there I see no reason why support couldnt be generated...marketing would be key

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:18 am

I was with Lindfield as a kid. (thought you mentioned something a couple of months ago about being involved with them... maybe I misread it) That was a long time ago... before Stirling Mortlock. Smile Later played against Knox a few times but mainly GPS rugby comp.

Sure it could be done. Needs to be the right balance of rugby club strength. It doesn't matter if one area is larger than the other or has a bigger population either - it just has to be the right split of clubs across the country so that a 2 'state' rivalry could be marketed properly as you say.
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Post by MonkeyOwain12 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:30 am

I did mention Kentwell Cup before...

But how good could it be, I've watched Origin back home for a while...being out here (at game 2) has made me see just how awesome and big it really is. It's massive...

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:47 am

It's huge. Smile
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Post by gowales on Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:44 pm

Origin could work in Ireland for sure, but not so much in Wales.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:03 pm

gowales wrote:Origin could work in Ireland for sure, but not so much in Wales.

Our grudges and rivalaries tend to be town to town, not across the country. To be honest whilst I want to see the Scarlets beat everyone, beating the Ospreys is the one that I enjoy the most (probably because it hasn't happened for a while until this season). And likewise I assume the Dragons much prefer to dick the Blues than anyone else. So I guess it would lose some venom as we would be siding with the enemy to take on a lesser enemy. Maybe Dragons/Scarlets V Blues/Ospreys would be better?
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Post by thebluesmancometh on Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:01 am

My teams were based on Dragons/Blues V Scarlets/Ospreys

Trying to determine origins in south wales would be silly, half of our squads are born outside of Wales, then theres the arguments of boundry lines AGAIN!

If we played a 2 west club V 2 East clubs type of game it would be much easier and more effective.

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Post by Shifty on Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:31 am

The Ospreys pack and the Scarlets back line makes West Wales, while East Wales will be... Jamie Roberts and the Welsh back row? Headscratch
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Post by Pal Joey on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:00 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:My teams were based on Dragons/Blues V Scarlets/Ospreys

Trying to determine origins in south wales would be silly, half of our squads are born outside of Wales, then theres the arguments of boundry lines AGAIN!

If we played a 2 west club V 2 East clubs type of game it would be much easier and more effective.

That's the right way. It would be a great clash - the best of three matches every year. You could also look at it as a selection process for the national side year-by-year, like we do. OK
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