Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:37 pm

I and many others would like to see the Rabo grow to maybe a 2 tier competition but it all takes time.

The English and French want to make changes and add in a third tier for European competitions.

France want to become the Top16 and I think a growing number of people want to see a 14 team premiership.

So this is what I think the Rabo should do.

Q1. The four countries sit down and say how many teams they want to develop in the next ten years or so.
A1. Ireland really doesn’t want to do anything but may say one just for the u20 team to get some exposer (read on for more info)
Wales would say two which would be North Wales and Valleys
Scotland would say two which is North and South districts
Italy would say four but settle for two

Q2. Where would you base them?
A2 That would be easy for all but Ireland but could be in Dublin and play opposite weeks to Leinster in Dublin

Q3. How do we make these teams?
A3. Team one is like the best of the rest (those farmed out to the league teams e.g. AIL, Welsh prem etc)
They have to be over 20 and look like making the welsh squad in the future. (This may be harder for wales and Ireland)
They then set it in their number one place for their next region.

Q4. But what about the 2nd team.
A4. Well you have it be the u20 team. Most of the English u20s are getting game time but not so much the Rabo countries though Ireland is probably worse.
They would get 6 games plus the 5 in the 6Nations so they would have 11 heading to the JWC which would have to give them a help.
They would be based in the second region.

Q5. But places will fight over the home ground like last time it was tried
A5. You can rotate the games from one place to the next. The Boarders have brought in the Boarders cup so you could say the finalist the third place winner gets the three matches. The union can also tell people that the best attendances get any extra games

Q6. How do you build it as the local team and not the u20s?
A6. You call them the name of the team you want them to be so the Italian u20s in Rome would be the roman legion etc. The colours and everything would be picked and owned by the unions with none of this rubbish politically correct bit of everything.

Q7. How do you make the change from development to full region?
A7. You have a policy of only certain players. You can then allow a couple of old head, and after ten years you remove any restrictions if the union wants. (Could see Ireland leaving it as the u20s)

Q8. Money and players
A8. The money will always be an issue but to play six games won't break the bank and should help the union. As has been stated it will help the u20s and if they do better and start beating the SH at JWC then in 10 years time there will be more respect form the SH and less mind-block on our side.

Q9. What levels would they play at?
A9. Well that would be up for discussion but why not Amlin or even the 3rd tier and be pushing for the win.


Feel free to ask any more questions or criticize answers or ask for more details. Would help all the unions without being a drain on the money side. Also the week before each HC block they could play each other.

I only see Wales and Ireland putting in an U20 with Scotland and Italy going for the two teams.


Last edited by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:42 pm

brendan, in general I like it OK

AsLongAsBut100ofUs

Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 106
Location : Devon/London

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:47 pm

I'm all in favour of growth, but my view is that currently the standard of the teams at the bottom half of the Rabo 12 needs to improve first. We mustn't allow a further dilution of quality, or we risk not giving our players a sufficiently high standard of rugby from which to progress as players.

One of the common justifications as to why the SH big three have been consistently better than us is the higher quality of their club rugby. We need to ensure that the Rabo12 is a premium quality and respected competition. Currently I think it falls alittle short. Once we achieve that, then we can slowly introduce an additional side or two (possibly from another nation - not sure Ireland, Wales or Scotland (at the moment) need another team).

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 15757
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 38
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:56 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm all in favour of growth, but my view is that currently the standard of the teams at the bottom half of the Rabo 12 needs to improve first. We mustn't allow a further dilution of quality, or we risk not giving our players a sufficiently high standard of rugby from which to progress as players.

One of the common justifications as to why the SH big three have been consistently better than us is the higher quality of their club rugby. We need to ensure that the Rabo12 is a premium quality and respected competition. Currently I think it falls alittle short. Once we achieve that, then we can slowly introduce an additional side or two (possibly from another nation - not sure Ireland, Wales or Scotland (at the moment) need another team).

The whole point of this is that It would only be during the HC weekend. You have to name a HC squad which leaves out alot of these players. If the SRU demanded to have teir third place back from the ERC I'm not sure they could stop them. They players not picked in the HC squads could then play in the Amlin or you could do the u20 team which would get Scotlands younger players better ready for the 6N and JWC.

Also they wouldn't be putting them intot he Rabo just Euro

It would be 6-9 games if they wanted and they would get more from it then playing in the Scottish league. Might also help the boarders to show they have grown up from last time.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by red_stag on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:57 pm

For the other nations it might work. I suspect Ireland would rather put resources into Conancht.
red_stag
red_stag

Posts : 15653
Join date : 2011-05-19
Age : 30
Location : Limerick, Ireland

http://www.redstagrugby.blogspot.com

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:59 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm all in favour of growth, but my view is that currently the standard of the teams at the bottom half of the Rabo 12 needs to improve first. We mustn't allow a further dilution of quality, or we risk not giving our players a sufficiently high standard of rugby from which to progress as players.

One of the common justifications as to why the SH big three have been consistently better than us is the higher quality of their club rugby. We need to ensure that the Rabo12 is a premium quality and respected competition. Currently I think it falls alittle short. Once we achieve that, then we can slowly introduce an additional side or two (possibly from another nation - not sure Ireland, Wales or Scotland (at the moment) need another team).

The only way the Rabo will ever be a respected competition (especially on here) is if we let the English join it, and then ditch all the Socttish/Italian/Welsh/Irish sides.

The Rabo is IMO of a good quality, and it should be a respeceted competition. The majority of teams that are feilded week in week out in the Rabo are of a standard that is equal to if not better than their respective league position in the Top14 or the Jeff.
ScarletSpiderman
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9916
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 34
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:03 pm

I don't think Ireland would go for it either but if they could put the u20s out for 12 games before each JWC they might look at it. I feel that the u20s would be pushing for top 4 if they did it.

Also think of the benefit to connacht if u20s got Amlin time and then were not happy to sit in the other proviences doing nothing. They may be more inclide to move to connacht.

this is more for the other three but Ireland would take any advantage they could get.

Also only trips would be the cost. As a travel agent what would be the extra cost of three away games for the team. All players are already getting paid

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:06 pm

I don't think the idea of putting in U20 side is a good idea for a start. You have quoted that not many players are having the chance to play rugby, well in Wales there are plenty being given the chance. But, I think the Rabbo will expand within the next few years, you will definatley see another Welsh region as the North Wales have already started the ball rolling and I think we will see another region from Scotland. For me though the Rabbo is already improving with higher season ticket sales being announced by the regions in Wales and Scotland and the signings I see being made thus far next season is going to be one of the best ever, it will not be to long when the Celtic/Italian league will be the envy of Europe, and lets be honest the English and the French are starting to moan about our setup as it is, imagine what it will be like when all our teams are reaching their potential.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

LordDowlais

Posts : 13351
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:07 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:


The Rabo is IMO of a good quality, and it should be a respeceted competition. The majority of teams that are feilded week in week out in the Rabo are of a standard that is equal to if not better than their respective league position in the Top14 or the Jeff.

I agree the problem we have is we don't have the level below the Rabo really. This could let unions play six games with people already contracted and see how the locals take it. It also allows the players to state a case for the Rabo teams. Think of George North a 17 year old playing against Newcastle in the Amlin and holding his own.

there are lots of players who have fringe rabo experience for too many years. this allows them to stake a claim

Lord. think how much North wales needs to be in the amlin. If they had 6 games in the amlin they could then say we are ready for the Rabo we are getting attendances and we have a players that can make it. Much easier then the WRU claiming North Wales is ready for the Rabo and the other unions saying no.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:13 pm

The whole pointof this is not to but those teams into the rabo it is to allow the union to make the first steps to adding a team. If the boarders are to small minded it is easy move it to north scotland the the SRU doesn't lose anything. Same for wales and italy.

But I think everyone will agree that we need to have something like this before any team can be considered for the Rabo. How they do against the lower English and french teams would give them better feedback also. If they push in the group for top they would be ready for the Rabo

Doing that for the next 4year agreement wouldn't be that much money and we could look at progress after the four years.


Last edited by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:13 pm

Brendan - maybe we would be better off channelling the energy into either a Rabo Age Grade or a Rabo A Team tournament to run alongside the normal Rabo? The Welsh currently do a series where their under 18s, 17s, and 16s (possibly 19s) play against each other. If the B&I and the LV= were ditched then that would leave money and resources available for the Rabo A or Age Grade.
ScarletSpiderman
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9916
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 34
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:15 pm

Brendan wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:


The Rabo is IMO of a good quality, and it should be a respeceted competition. The majority of teams that are feilded week in week out in the Rabo are of a standard that is equal to if not better than their respective league position in the Top14 or the Jeff.

I agree the problem we have is we don't have the level below the Rabo really. This could let unions play six games with people already contracted and see how the locals take it. It also allows the players to state a case for the Rabo teams. Think of George North a 17 year old playing against Newcastle in the Amlin and holding his own.

there are lots of players who have fringe rabo experience for too many years. this allows them to stake a claim

Lord. think how much North wales needs to be in the amlin. If they had 6 games in the amlin they could then say we are ready for the Rabo we are getting attendances and we have a players that can make it. Much easier then the WRU claiming North Wales is ready for the Rabo and the other unions saying no.

Yes, but for them to be in the Amlin, then we would have to sacrifice a spot for one of our established regions, unless they allow us to put two teams in there. First things first though, the WRU are trying to build North Wales from the bottom up, they are starting to get all the lower end clubs up to speed by getting some of them further up the leagues in Wales and they are trying to genrate more support for the game up there. I do not know the ins and outs, perhaps somebody from the North can educate me a little more as I do not even know what fixtures the North Wales region have been playing or will be playing.

LordDowlais

Posts : 13351
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:19 pm

Brendan - sounds like this is a Scots specific issue, but we don't actually have many fringe players who don't get a game and yet are of sufficient quality to play. Those that are fringe players usually get to play around HC time (week before and week after), and in our case, usually get murdered due to a lack of depth.

I really can only think of one or two players last season at Glasgow and Edinburgh for whom I think more rugby was warranted, and would improve them.

As for the point about the Rabo being respected and of sufficient quality, personally I disagree. I'm not for one second suggesting the Jeff is better. I just think they both need to step up a notch. If you watch Super 15 rugby at the weekends these days you'll see that the average Jeff and Rabo12 game (and of course there are exceptions) are a step down (certainly less so the HC).

I know us Rabo12 fans have had to be in defensive mode for a while now, but we shouldn't be blinded by constantly banging on about Rabo12 vs Jeff. The French competition and Southern Hemisphere rugby are also very important benchmarks, and you absolutely cannot claim in a month of Sundays that the Rabo12 is at the level of the Super 15.

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 15757
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 38
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:19 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Brendan - maybe we would be better off channelling the energy into either a Rabo Age Grade or a Rabo A Team tournament to run alongside the normal Rabo? The Welsh currently do a series where their under 18s, 17s, and 16s (possibly 19s) play against each other. If the B&I and the LV= were ditched then that would leave money and resources available for the Rabo A or Age Grade.

See the problem is and has been money. to do an A league or age grade you are looking at 20 odd games a year. This would require one or two teams to play 6-9 games. Our u20s would benefit greatly (one of the reasons the AS, Nz and Enland do well is their players have played for the teams in the top league.

the Amlin would allow that for us.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Kingshu on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:21 pm

I don't like the Idea of any nation entering an under 20 side in a club league. say the under 20 player is with Munster and the under 20s are due to play Munster who gets the call on them?

I don't think the Rabo needs a second tier either, the Super XV doesn't have relagution and its fine, likewise 6 nations.

Under 20's get game time in the BandI cup and this is for player development


Kingshu

Posts : 3642
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:26 pm

Brendad - would it really be too much extra cost. And if it were start of with a few teams, and allow sides to enter when they feel they can afford to. The teams already have fans already, if the A-Team/Age Grade were playing at home when the full team were away there would be a number (probably a decent number) of fans turning out. If you went down the route of new teams, that would cost more, extra facilities, extra coaches, extra squads (as opposed to a few more players), and you would also need to find extra supporters or take them from an existing side.
ScarletSpiderman
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9916
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 34
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:27 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Brendan - sounds like this is a Scots specific issue, but we don't actually have many fringe players who don't get a game and yet are of sufficient quality to play. Those that are fringe players usually get to play around HC time (week before and week after), and in our case, usually get murdered due to a lack of depth.

I really can only think of one or two players last season at Glasgow and Edinburgh for whom I think more rugby was warranted, and would improve them.

As for the point about the Rabo being respected and of sufficient quality, personally I disagree. I'm not for one second suggesting the Jeff is better. I just think they both need to step up a notch. If you watch Super 15 rugby at the weekends these days you'll see that the average Jeff and Rabo12 game (and of course there are exceptions) are a step down (certainly less so the HC).

I know us Rabo12 fans have had to be in defensive mode for a while now, but we shouldn't be blinded by constantly banging on about Rabo12 vs Jeff. The French competition and Southern Hemisphere rugby are also very important benchmarks, and you absolutely cannot claim in a month of Sundays that the Rabo12 is at the level of the Super 15.

Playing in the Amlin and the Hc are two different levels.
you have to have an HC squad so there are players who would not be in that. It is the first step to giving players the next step to make it into the Rabo team.

When did Richie Gray make the team. Hew ould have made this team earlier and so would be even better. Playing in the amlin between 18-25 would make them better players and lift the standard for the club. It is more Italian and scottish specific but Wales could sort our either North wales or the valleys.

Ireland is the least likely to use it but we don't use many u25s in or teams (always exceptions) so they could be blooded in the Rabo as now and the best be in the Amlin.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 2:32 pm

Kingshu wrote:I don't like the Idea of any nation entering an under 20 side in a club league. say the under 20 player is with Munster and the under 20s are due to play Munster who gets the call on them?

I don't think the Rabo needs a second tier either, the Super XV doesn't have relagution and its fine, likewise 6 nations.

Under 20's get game time in the BandI cup and this is for player development


I'm not talking about the second tier but a step to the second tier. The team would be like any other team, all players would just happen to be u20. Players that were good enough to make the munster HC squad would be in the munster squad. but would JJ have done better against say Exeter and Toulon or bench warming at munster.

We are only talking about 6-9 games. Right now the Rabo teams have about 25-30 players that play HC/Amlin. the remaining players could manage in to get third in the Amlin group and give good home games.

For the complainers of ERC places the preseason warmup could be the lowest national HC team v this region team unless dragon/connacht don't make it into the HC. If Dragons got into the HC and lost in a game the North wales they deserve to be inthe amlin. If Zebre loss to Itail u20 or best of the rest they desevre Amlin.

Rominia and Spain both enter non club teams. As I have said Ireland is least likely to want it. But it removes the worries of the other unions to put money into developing another team.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Smirnoffpriest on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 9:12 pm

I'd say a big stumbling block here would be how are you going to shoehorn in these extra games into an already overcrowded season?

Also it's been a struggle to make 4 Welsh regions & 2 Scots clubs financially viable in 7 years - they are just starting to get there, will be I'd say in the next 3-5 years.

I can't see when we'd have enough money for another 2 in a watered down league.

Smirnoffpriest

Posts : 5321
Join date : 2011-06-03
Age : 35
Location : Cardiff (born in Llanelli)

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Shifty on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 9:28 pm

Personally I'd be in favour of scrapping the Aviva, Rabo and Heinaken Cup and just having a 2 division, 18 team British and Irish league instead.

Premiership
1 Leinster
2 Ulster
3 Munster
4 Edinburgh
5 Glasgow
6 Ospreys
7 Blues
8 Scarlets
9 Harelquins
10 Leicester
11 Saracens
12 Northampton
13 Exeter
14 Sale
15 London Irish
16 Bath
17 Gloucester
18 Worcester


Championship
1 Connacht
2 Dragons
3 RGC 1404
4 Caledonia Reds
5 Scottish Borders
6 London Wasps
7 London Welsh
8 Newcastle Falcons
9 Bristol
10 Bedford
11 Cornish Pirates
12 Nottingham
13 Leeds
14 Rotherham
15 Doncaster
16 London Scottish
17 Mosley
18 Plymouth

Much more fun than what we have at the moment Very Happy
Shifty
Shifty

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2011-04-26
Age : 39
Location : Kenfig Hill, Bridgend

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 9:29 pm

Its too early to start talking about growth. The pro12 is only just starting to come together and is quickly becoming europes top domestic league.

LeinsterFan4life

Posts : 5254
Join date : 2012-03-13
Age : 29
Location : Meath

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Gibson on Thu 05 Jul 2012, 10:07 pm

Im with the consolidate and further strengthen the PRO12, rather than dilute what we already have, opinion. It is patently getting stronger year-on-year.
The British and Irish Cup is also a great one for tier-2, as it is. Why not strenghten that/give it far more creedence and backing?

Fo me, I'd maybe revisit this in 4/5 years, when the PRO12 (maybe even the PRO14 by then), will be the top league in the NH. But I like your ideas Brendan. Some really solid, forward-thinking and logical ones in there.
Gibson
Gibson

Posts : 14126
Join date : 2011-02-23
Location : Amsterdam

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by profitius on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:26 am

I also think we should be concentrating on strengthening the league even further before its expanded.

The quality is rising every year and no doubt thats helping the development of rugby in the 4 countries. Its important to maintain the momentum and keep raising the standards. Not only the playing standards but the overall product.
profitius
profitius

Posts : 4157
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 8:39 am

Shifty wrote:Personally I'd be in favour of scrapping the Aviva, Rabo and Heinaken Cup and just having a 2 division, 18 team British and Irish league instead.

Premiership
1 Leinster
2 Ulster
3 Munster
4 Edinburgh
5 Glasgow
6 Ospreys
7 Blues
8 Scarlets
9 Harelquins
10 Leicester
11 Saracens
12 Northampton
13 Exeter
14 Sale
15 London Irish
16 Bath
17 Gloucester
18 Worcester


Championship
1 Connacht
2 Dragons
3 RGC 1404
4 Caledonia Reds
5 Scottish Borders
6 London Wasps
7 London Welsh
8 Newcastle Falcons
9 Bristol
10 Bedford
11 Cornish Pirates
12 Nottingham
13 Leeds
14 Rotherham
15 Doncaster
16 London Scottish
17 Mosley
18 Plymouth

Much more fun than what we have at the moment Very Happy
OK, Shifty, I'll fall for it. Who are they? Wink

PS I actually quite like this idea too, altho I think that there'll be too much opposition to giving up the intra-national rivalries

AsLongAsBut100ofUs

Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 106
Location : Devon/London

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by gowales on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 8:42 am

I don't think Italy should be in the Pro 12 for the long term. In 10 years or so if (and that's a big if) they start to improve in the pro 12 and internationally i'd like them to leave and improve the Italian league/premiership.

gowales

Posts : 2942
Join date : 2011-06-17

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 8:50 am

I think people are missing the point the teams would not be added into the league they would only play amlin so 6 games a year. this is puting steps in place for 10years down the road. It would make the league stronger as the weaker players ie. not up to HC standard would be playing Amlin. which would be better then playing fringe Rabo so its a win for the Rabo and the union.

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Kingshu on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 9:16 am

Think think promoting the BandI cup would be better.

Your way the under 20's play about 6 games in the Almin,

But with the BandI cup you have 4 provinical 'A' teams playing these players, in more games, ok thestandard is lower than the Almin, but if it was reformed it could be nearly as good and with more games

If it was regionial 'A' sides Plus RGC1404 (they have an acamady, and should be allowed to call up Welsh prem players), instead of semi pro Welsh prem sides. if Scotland entered Edinburgh and glasgow 'A' sides plus a boarders team, and the English championship. This would increase quality as all teams would be fully Professional.

Kingshu

Posts : 3642
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Welshmushroom on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 10:28 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm all in favour of growth, but my view is that currently the standard of the teams at the bottom half of the Rabo 12 needs to improve first. We mustn't allow a further dilution of quality, or we risk not giving our players a sufficiently high standard of rugby from which to progress as players.

One of the common justifications as to why the SH big three have been consistently better than us is the higher quality of their club rugby. We need to ensure that the Rabo12 is a premium quality and respected competition. Currently I think it falls alittle short. Once we achieve that, then we can slowly introduce an additional side or two (possibly from another nation - not sure Ireland, Wales or Scotland (at the moment) need another team).

I'm not sure, this got me thinking. Sure I'll be the first to concede that the Rabbo teams at the bottom of the table in previous seasons where not that great. But looking at the way things have gone during the last 2 seasons, at times, the standard from bottom sides has been fairly competitive. Looking into next season the Scottish sides (in theory) should be competitive. The main reason in the past they struggled is that they lacked squad sizes to really challenge through a whole season. Thats changing.

Connacht are starting to be supported by the Irish Rugby Union and their signings have also been strong as well given where they have been previously. Even before that though they have always given teams a good going over (especially at home).

Dragons seem to be making a change towards youth instead of buying the other regions cast offs. This will see us more competitive this season. I do concede we probably are weak in terms of standards at times.

Treviso have been a great addition. First 2 seasons have got some great results. I certanly dont think they are a weak side. When Leicester come away from there spouting how good they where you start to realize they are no mugs. Give them a couple of seasons and we could be looking at a top 4 side in the making. Granted that the Aironi/Zebre will/have weakened the league. The Italians have however brought in some strong scrummaging and that kind of compeitition level should provide a challenege to other sides even if they are outmatched in open play.

The reality however is that there is a tier system in all leagues. Some sides in the long term are to strong financially to allow themselves to slip into the bottom half of the tables. That wont change.

I do however think the Rabbo does not get the credit it should from outsiders.

Welshmushroom

Posts : 958
Join date : 2011-08-09

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 10:35 am

Asbo - RGC 1404 (Rugby Gogledd Cymru 1404) are the North Wales region. At the moment they are being built from the ground up. They have age grade sides that play against the other regions age grade sides. But the intention is to build the region slowly in order to make sure it is sustainable, as opposed to just throwing it to the lions (a bit like Exeter did I guess).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGC_1404
ScarletSpiderman
ScarletSpiderman

Posts : 9916
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 34
Location : Pembs

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 10:57 am

Kingshu wrote:Think think promoting the BandI cup would be better.

Your way the under 20's play about 6 games in the Almin,

But with the BandI cup you have 4 provinical 'A' teams playing these players, in more games, ok thestandard is lower than the Almin, but if it was reformed it could be nearly as good and with more games

If it was regionial 'A' sides Plus RGC1404 (they have an acamady, and should be allowed to call up Welsh prem players), instead of semi pro Welsh prem sides. if Scotland entered Edinburgh and glasgow 'A' sides plus a boarders team, and the English championship. This would increase quality as all teams would be fully Professional.

The problem with this kingshu is that all it does is creates better A teams but not new team which is what the other three nations want to do.
As good as the B&I cup would be it doesn't do anything for moving on the next level of getting people to the next level.

RGC1404 need to be trying to move it on to the next level and being in the prem isn't going to really do it.
Scotland really need another team in Europe so they can have greater experience which is what they are lacking.
Italy would be able to build a team in Rome and somewhere else so that they can grow the game and have a fan base then go down the Aroini route. Atleast Zebre were a regional team.
In ireland we complain that we aren't giving people a go quick enough. This would fix it as if they can shine in the amlin they are good enough rather then the old "they do good in the Rabo but the other side and a weak team. There are plenty of players in Ireland and Wales that don't make the HC squads that could be in the team for the 6 weekends. Also might help to get more Irish front rows playing at a higher level then stuck behind a NIQ getting 10mins a game.

Also Italy are looking at it so why can't the other countries. We can try it for the 4 year agreement and if it doesn't work scrap it. Also it is the only stick we would have to use on the ENG/FRA as they have plenty more teams but the rabo apart from Italy don't

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:13 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Asbo - RGC 1404 (Rugby Gogledd Cymru 1404) are the North Wales region. At the moment they are being built from the ground up. They have age grade sides that play against the other regions age grade sides. But the intention is to build the region slowly in order to make sure it is sustainable, as opposed to just throwing it to the lions (a bit like Exeter did I guess).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGC_1404
Gotcha, spidey, I was (incorrectly) assuming that Shifty was promoting his own local club or something similar (from Wales D7!) - makes sense now OK

AsLongAsBut100ofUs

Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 106
Location : Devon/London

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by cp10 on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:37 pm

I think some of you have misinterpreted what Brendan was suggesting. Its not to create new teams in a league but to have 'invitational' sides for the Amlin Cup only.

I think the SRU could put out at least one side to enter the Amlin. The South (Scottish Border invitational side) could be a successful team and have a long history with the region. The SRU don't have the money and the Scottish Borders doesn't have the supporter mass needed to sustain a full league campaign but would probably be able to get behind the team for 3 games a season. The recent South vs Baa-baa's had an attendance of 2100 and the kick off was on a Tuesday afternoon. Friday evening or Sunday afternoon ko could bring in decent crowds.

As mentioned on the other thread there are plenty of Pro Border players that wouldn't be involved in Edinburgh & Glasgow Heiny cup squads that could be included. They also have the top Scottish club side in Melrose as well as last seasons surprise package in Scottish Cup winners Gala, not to mention the usual Hawick, Jed, Selkirk and Kelso players.

cp10

Posts : 286
Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Shit stirring somewhere

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:57 pm

I'm glad you get it Cp10

I think that the crowds would be good as the boarders like other places would love to show their union they are willing to support their local region.

Also it helps to get people in the habit of going seeing "their team"

Problem in wales and scotland was the new team wasn't their team so they didn't go. If Wales had of done this for a few years prior to forming the regions

Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by profitius on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:05 pm

Apologies for misinterpreting, Brendan. Its a good idea but before they do that I'd like to see less NIQ players in Ireland. That would mean more openings for Irish players and those players would be getting game-time at Rabo and HEC level.

I also think its important to develop the AIL. The law of being allowed only 2 professional players is nonsense and damages the quality of the league as well as attendances.
profitius
profitius

Posts : 4157
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Thomond on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:07 pm

I agree with it, there was a reason why Cork Con were continuously performing well and winning the league, they had a lot of pro players.

Thomond
V2 Editor
V2 Editor

Posts : 10663
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : The People's Republic of Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Brendan on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:22 pm

profitius wrote:Apologies for misinterpreting, Brendan. Its a good idea but before they do that I'd like to see less NIQ players in Ireland. That would mean more openings for Irish players and those players would be getting game-time at Rabo and HEC level.

I also think its important to develop the AIL. The law of being allowed only 2 professional players is nonsense and damages the quality of the league as well as attendances.

If the top AIL players got a shot at the Amlin team they would both bring a higher level to the league and be better prepared for the step up to the Rabo

Thomond wrote:I agree with it, there was a reason why Cork Con were continuously performing well and winning the league, they had a lot of pro players.

With this system the best players of the AIL could form the team, I only suggest u20s as it would be more sense for the international setup. In all honesty any player not in the matchday 22 or IRFU rest should be lining out for their club atleast 50% of the time. The AIL needs to be used more by the IRFU. This one one thing I think we can learn from Wales though only in part as they have their own issues with clubs and regions. I think the clubs though should get an even shre of the pro players dropping down.


Brendan

Posts : 2515
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:55 pm

I understand the concept, I just don't think from a Scottish perspective there's a problem to solve here.

We have actually done a very good job in recent seasons of both bringing through young players and getting them game time at Rabo and HC level at an early age. The example you cite Brendan of Richie Gray is actually a good example of why we are on the right track at present. This new Amlin invitational side wouldn't benefit young players particularly (those that are good enough get to play in the HC), it would be full of journeymen squad players, players like John Houston, Peter Murchie, Scott Wight and the like. These guys already get the chance to prove themselves, injuries and rotation through the season already demonstrate that (plus we can use the club side competition as a means of getting them rugby if they really need it), and if they prove themselves worthy, typically get to play for the 1st team.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see the benefit of your proposal. We have very limited funds, and the priority for Scotland must be to improve Edinburgh and Glasgow as far as possible. That means spending on marketing to get the numbers up, retaining our top talent (a bit of an issue recently), making the right sorts of overseas acquisitions to make us competitive at the highest level, and ensuring the coaches we employ are of the highest calibre. I take all those things ahead of ensuring that Housten, Murchie and Horne et al get 6 extra games a season.

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 15757
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 38
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Intotouch on Sat 21 Jul 2012, 2:00 pm

Brendan I don't know why you think that rabo countries all want to develop more teams. Apart from Wales I don't see this for any other country for quite a while yet. Italy and Scotland need to get more support for the teams that they have and I don't believe have the money or the players to start thinking about new sides. In Ireland Connacht still need to improve and the IRFU are trying to limit the foreign players so will they have the depth to create a fifth side? Apart from in Wales, who if they want more sides can be accommodated into the present system there is no need or demand for these extra teams.

If it did expand greatly I would much prefer a conference or weird S14 type system than two tier. Audiences and finances of clubs are often decimated when teams are relegated. I'm not at all a fan of that system.


Intotouch

Posts : 537
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Usually Dublin

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Shifty on Sat 21 Jul 2012, 3:21 pm

Personally I think the competition could be tweaked a bit. I'm not against what the English and French are saying about qualification, I'd be happy for the top 6 Rabo teams to qualify.

On balance I'd expect Munster, Ulster, Leinster, Cardiff, Scarlets, and the Ospreys to qualify each season. With one of the Scottish teams pushing assuming one of the Welsh teams have a below par season.

Below the Rabo there is a lot of scope for change to improve standards. I wonder why the Welsh and Irish don't team up to make a 16 team league. 2 clubs from each Irish province, and 2 clubs from each Welsh region, with North Wales (RGC 1404), being one of the Scarlets clubs.

I'd also be happy for the Heinaken to disband altogether assuming it's replaced with a new Welsh league with the 4 teams playing each other on a home and away basis. This at least would replace the lost Heinaken games and probably generate more revenue as attendences are always much higher for Welsh derby games.
Shifty
Shifty

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2011-04-26
Age : 39
Location : Kenfig Hill, Bridgend

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by maestegmafia on Sat 21 Jul 2012, 10:25 pm

I like the idea of an Under 20/Academy Rabbo league, I would also like an A-Team league.

Though this would be very expensive. Rugby is not a wealthy sport and the idea of two extra leagues added is unfortunately expensive.

Unless anyone has any idea of how we could fund them.

maestegmafia
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 21585
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg

Back to top Go down

Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe Empty Re: Real growth for the Rabo countries. Also freedback from outside at our extra teams getting Europe

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum