What are your thoughts on the new trump course?

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Post by McLaren on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 11:37 am

So trump has officially opened his new course on the menie estate and among the first players to tee off were Monty and Paul Lawrie. It is sad to see that Paul lawrie makes another decision which only someone unable to comprehend a wider world could make. For Monty, associating with the obtuse just seems normal and unfortunately he seems comfortable with this.

Lawrie skips the US open and then fails to realise what a terrible raping of the land he is condoning. He can help all the young Scottish folks in the world but it does not seem to help him to expand his mind.

There is no doubt I will get the usual backlash from those who see environmentalists as over sensitive or only repeating what the guardian told us to. But I would hope everyone, regardless of whether you think destroying an sssi is ok, can see that a great fraud has been committed against the people of Aberdeen and the country as a whole in the building of this course. The levels of corruption needed to gain planning permission for this course are just unacceptable and the government should never be held to ransom by one individual businessman.

Why any pro golfer would want to be seen standing by trump is a mystery, well it is not really; they no doubt had their wallets sufficiently stuffed. You would just hope they had a bit more integrity.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 11:52 am

Mac, perhaps you should just let Lawrie etc make up their own minds on whether or not they should play it.

You can't expect everyone to subscribe to your lentil knitting agenda.

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Post by SpacemanSpiff on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:35 pm

Playing it in August, can't wait. OK

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 1:41 pm

We tend to disagree quite a bit Mac but I'm inclined to agree with your thesis here. As far as I can see there was absolutely no need to build a course there except for Trump's ego picard.
If they ever hold a big event there I hope plenty of people make their feelings known throughout it.
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Post by EmmDee57 on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:03 pm

Perhaps Lawrie's appearance fee for today is converted into RC points to strengthen his place in the standings??

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Post by Conehead on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 2:16 pm

What are the politics involved with the building of the course?

By all accounts the course looks amazing, will be hoping to get some major tournaments and will surely benefit the local community if it brings tourists to the area?

Is everyone in Aberdeen against the building of the course? Has it not created jobs for the locals?

Can't say I have a massive opinion on the subject. The more top quality courses in Britain, the more prices may become a bit more reasonable so that the average Joe's can play on them.

£200 a round? Can't see me ever playing the course at that cost!

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Post by incontinentia on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 3:58 pm

Conehead wrote:What are the politics involved with the building of the course?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/10/donald-trump-scotland-golf-course?newsfeed=true

So the sand dunes etc were protected from development, but then this was overruled by government? Without knowing specifics its hard to get an idea of which side is right in this argument. Perhaps the environmental damage is minimal, it's impossible to tell from reading news articles.

Also I presume calling it "the greatest golf course in the world" is hyperbolic nonsense??
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Post by Eyetoldyouso on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 5:13 pm

Mac - you wrote "The levels of corruption needed to gain planning permission for this course are just unacceptable..."

Do you have any evidence at all for making this comment?

I'm pretty sure that Mr Trump doesn't give two hoots for your statement. However, if he does - hope you've got a good lawyer.

As for your comments about Paul Lawrie; they are completely uncalled for. Paul Lawrie has given time & money for the benefit of Scottish golf. What have you done - SFA!!

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Post by Conehead on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 5:27 pm

http://www.andywightman.com/?p=1352

Interesting take on the course. No doubt there is bias in the tone but some valid points made.

Some brief reading today and it's obvious it's been a troubled project from day 1.

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Post by Slowride on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 9:25 pm

Why the vitriol towards Paul Lawrie?

A great golfer who is a past champion and still has the potential to achieve much more - and you knock him as "someone unable to comprehend a wider world"?

Are you totally deranged or are you just attention seeking? I can't see any other reason for such an off-base comment

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Post by McLaren on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 9:32 pm

Not sure about deranged or attention seeking but definitely trying to provoke debate on a rather slow day.

Lawrie is standing hand in hand with trump so I assume he condones the project, which is sad given the way trump and the scottish government behaved in the destruction of a unique site. This is before we consider how terrible the treatment of some of the local people was.

I really do stand by the point that lawrie cannot be the stand out character we think he is to be standing grinning with trump. It is no doubt a shrewd decision on his part but lets drop the notion lawrie is any more than a golfer.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 10:05 pm

Mac, you can't tar everyone who doesn't subscribe to your soppy liberal agenda with the bad captialist evil person brush.

I guarantee that if this project was backed by say a "national treasure" like the talentless Cheryl Cole or hateful Jamie Oliver people wouldn't give a toss about it, but because it's Trump, is the reason why they really hate it.
If they just came out with that I'd respect them more, but they go on about the site being a "unique environment" as if they actually give a toss.

I've been on the site before and after construction, and it's better now than the desolate savage wasteland it was before, and still plenty of the site as an environmental concern exists, but then you'd know that if you'd been there, but once again it's just an armchair keyboard argument like your panning of The Castle Course.
I bet if it was a Doak design or had your lovechild Woods behind it you'd be climaxing in your trousers in admiration, I doubt you'd be worried about a few flying rats and a bit of sand.

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Post by Skydriver on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm

I'm not going to comment on my own behalf, as I have little basis for any views - other than saying from my distant armchair that there must be some positives in bringing a significant amount of foreign investment into the UK, creating jobs etc (which might also attract a fair bit of further inbound "rich people's tourism" type spending in years to come).

I think I've mentioned somewhere else before, but Golf World claim to be the first people to have played on the course as of a couple of months ago. It was ostensibly for the purpose of inclusion in their biennial "Top 100 Courses in GB&I". Trump International was the highest ever new entry at #8. I take this with a pinch of salt, as it sounds a bit like people scratching each other's backs. [They do however acknowledge the controversy at ranking a course so highly before it has established itself in a set of bullet points in a side bar - short version is that they say they really do think it's that good in terms of setting, design, conditioning and enjoyment].

The actual narrative from the body of the top 100 supplement reads as follows (there was a longer write-up in the magazine itself, which I don't have to hand):

"Here it is then - the highest new entry in the history of our ranking is a course which, from what our panel have seen, will succeed in the not inconsiderable task of living up to its enormous hype and expectation.

It is true we probably have more familiarity with every other course in the Top 100, but unless our eyes and judgement are deceiving us, only its lack of history prevented Trump International from entering even higher. It would be a surprise to us if it did not move higher in 2014 when it has settled down and even more of our panel are more familiar with it.

It is a simply breathtaking course where hole after stunning hole unfold before your eyes among some of the largest dunes you are ever likely to see. A wise choice of tees (there are multiple options) will be crucial to enjoyment, especially in a wind; it is undoubtedly exacting and could quite easily bring anyone not treating it with the respect it deserves to their knees."

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 10 Jul 2012, 11:39 pm

Skydriver wrote:"...history prevented Trump International from entering even higher..."
The fact it's apparently called Trump International tells you everything you need to know about the man I think.

S_R

Sorry. I couldn't care who sponsored/funded the place. If even half of what's been published about the way this madman with a tupeé has gone about this, he's an arse.
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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 7:13 am

I'm sure he his a man sausage, certainly from what I've seen, I'm merely saying that had this been a project from anyone else but him I doubt "Disgusted of Turnbridge Wells" a.k.a Mac would care one jot, but Trump is an easy and fairly legitimate target, so he gets pelters. I just doubt Mac etc would care if it was someone less loathesome had made the course, although Doak/Woods would be a ghastly combination.

The course however, looks utterly splendid, and as a resident I'll probably book a round sometime soon.

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Post by barragan on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 7:40 am

Looks like Trump snap-hooked the opening tee shot

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 9:17 am

No, he gets more pelters because he's Trump and he also has form for being an arse. I'm sure if someone else was behind it, they would get plenty of opprobrium.
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Post by Dave The Jackal on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 1:09 pm

Conehead wrote:Is everyone in Aberdeen against the building of the course?

Far from it. As a resident of Aberdeen I'd say the local opposition has been from a pretty small, but very vocal and high profile minority. I haven't spoken to a single person who's been strongly against it! As others have commented, the site was previously an unused wasteland, barely visited by anyone. Someone comes along who wants to do something positive with it and all of a sudden it's the most important natural site on the planet.

As for the rant about Paul Lawrie ... unbelievable. I've met the guy on numerous occasions, and he's as down to earth a bloke as you could meet ... and one who gives far more back than your average sportsman. Give the guy a break.

PS - Lawrie wasn't even AT the opening yesterday!

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Post by McLaren on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 1:32 pm

Dave

according to the scotsman he was there.
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Post by Dave The Jackal on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 1:42 pm

Mac ... Piece was obviously written in advance then, because Lawrie definitely wasn't in attendance. Weather was too poor for him to get there by chopper!

I'm no fan of Trump, or the way he's gone about the whole process of getting to this stage, but I'm totally in favour of the course being built. I'd normally be seriously sceptical about the claims being made about the standard of the course already (particularly those coming from Donald!), but I've had some unbelievably good feedback from guys I know who have been down to see it. I'll get some first hand feedback from a couple who are playing it over the next fortnight, which should confirm if it's really all that. I think it IS pretty amazing though.

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Post by Sand on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 2:36 pm

It looks phenomenal.... Playing it end of the month cant wait.

As a resident of Aberdeen I echo Dave's comments about the majority of the city being behind the development.

Oh and to confirm, Paul Lawrie definately wasnt there. Not sure about all this abuse he gets on this forum. Gives so much back to the game and his foundation is excellent.

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Post by Fader on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:13 pm

I've not seen the site first hand either before or after the course construction. However the images I've seen, I have to say it looks very impressive.

I think a lot of criticism is mainly because of Trump as others have said. So what if he is a tool, if he brings jobs and more tourism which means more money to the local community surely that's a good thing.

As a couple of local posters here have said it was no more than wasteland that wasn't visited anyway. Personally am going to be playing it late August I hope with a couple of my regular playing partners as a jaunt away.

As for Lawrie, Mac I'd take the word of a couple of locals who were in the area over any article in the Scotsman. Lawrie getting flack for anything is absurd, he comes across as a genuinely nice guy who does a lot for others. Even if he was in favour of the course, so what he's a golfer who likes to play top courses.

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Post by Shotrock on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:14 pm

Interesting commentary all around. Reminds me of similar comments I've heard years ago here in the states ... many were complaining about all the wealthy far east businesses that were buying up land in Hawaii. Bottom line, no one made anyone sell, but sell they did.

I've met Trump in passing, but don't know him. However, I know a couple people who do know him and both claim he's VERY astute, with an intellect that's not to be underrated. A few years ago he purchased Pine Hills, which is a fine (if not a bit awkward course) that nearly borders the famed Pine Valley. Trump reinvested in the property, built a new clubhouse, put the course in terrific shape, marketed some pretty unique membership options and now the course is doing well (in an area that's massively overbuilt with private course options).

Of course he claims the course to be better than Pine Valley, which it's not IMO, but he's never been short on hyperbole!

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Post by dynamark on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:15 pm

Have to say its looks a stunning piece of work by Martin Hawtree and the contactors .Rough looks as severe as you may expect and may well cause slow play issues.I presume the fairway growning medium was imported to support a different type of grass mixture.Planning always an issue?Just a few yards from where Im sitting developers want to build 2500 houses etc and the locals are doing their nut but most of them are living in houses on estates build fairly recently on what was then farmland.Economic benefits will be good.There will no doubt be all manner of conditions and local contributions built into trumps planning consents apparently £100 million spent already?.On balance I would say well done that man.Dunes look a bit steep for large crowds though so I would guess it wil be a top quality course for those who dont mind a few quid extra and maybe seniors or challenge tour

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Post by shudofhita4iron on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:25 pm

sometimes its best to get your facts right before slagging someone off

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Post by McLaren on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:33 pm

from the guardian

"The Scottish Wildlife Trust wrote an open letter urging golfers Colin Montgomerie, Paul Lawrie and Martin Laird not to play at the Trump International Golf Links course at Menie Estate on the grounds it was built on "a unique, protected area" with "nationally important landforms and wildlife". Lawrie was unable to attend because of bad weather."

So lawrie did not play due to weather and nothing to do with opposing the development or taking on board the environmental damage.

Although I am sure he is a perfectly nice, if not green, guy.
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Post by dynamark on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:46 pm

Pretty sure its still a unique and 'partly' protected area with nationally important landforms and wildlife only now a lot more people will get the opportunity to experience it.Reminds me of the Woodland trust .Own masses of woodland to safeguard for the nation and then dont let anyone in it.Golf course if managed correctly will enhance the wildlife of their area.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:47 pm

I'm sick of hearing about the uniqueness of the site and environmental damage.

There are much more important things to get upset about than a few seagulls and a couple of blades of marram grass. Bloody green hippies and their yoghurt only pipe up when it suits them.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:49 pm

super_realist wrote:I'm sick of hearing about the uniqueness of the site and environmental damge.

There are much more important things to get upset about than a few seagulls and a couple of blades of marram grass.

Such as ?

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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:52 pm

Almost everything Diggers.
I can't think of a lot less important than this site, considering almost every links course built in the past has done the same.

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Post by Fader on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:53 pm

Would love to know the numbers and locales of those for and against this.

I get the feeling most of those opposed are the tree huggers from out of town, and people who don't like trump. Whereas the local community are probably more for the idea of getting more revenue into the area through tourism and golfing clientele. Oh and before someone says there are other courses etc, are there resorts like this one that alone will create the jobs and more opportunity to see the local wildlife. I doubt it, but then I don't know the area.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:54 pm

I'm confused here. What is it that some people appear not to get?
Let's assume this so-called wasteland is somewhere hardly anyone goes to but that it is actually a valuable natural habitat etc. By what measure do people assume that just because he's done it and it might bring in some local business that it was actually the right thing to do to build this monument to ego on the land?
So what if a lot of people sold up to allow The Fart to buy the land? If someone offers them a lot of money, a lot of people would consider selling. It still doesn't make it right that The Fart has been able to bulldoze his way through things like this.
I'm sure most of the "pro-Fart" lobby would be singing a different tune if His Fartship was on the way to building some monstrosity of a hotel in view of their house.
Personally, I hope they build the World's biggest wind farm maybe about 100 yards off-shore. What odds the greens being totalled at least once prior to any event being held there?
I doubt I'll ever be in the position to play this course which is fine by me. Far too many other classic courses in Scotland I'd rather visit.

Shot

I don't doubt The Fart is pretty astute in many ways - you don't get where he's got without at least some nouse. One gets the more that slight impression with The Smelly One that he's like a little child and what he wants, he gets; regardless of how many little people he stomps on. I may be doing him an injustice but I've almost never heard anyone say a good thing about him.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:56 pm

super_realist wrote:I'm sick of hearing about the uniqueness of the site and environmental damage.

There are much more important things to get upset about than a few seagulls and a couple of blades of marram grass. Bloody green hippies and their yoghurt only pipe up when it suits them.
Pretty much what someone in the oil industry would say I reckon!
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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:58 pm

Steady Navy, There is nothing wrong with the oil industry, or thinking this is a course worth building, despite the negligable claims on it's environmental worth.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:07 pm

super_realist wrote:Almost everything Diggers.
I can't think of a lot less important than this site, considering almost every links course built in the past has done the same.

But you...well we...spend aeons on here debating utterly trivial things, will Poulter drop out of the top 50, will Woods win another major, is X Factor deadly...blah blah. Id say this is probably more important an issue for debate than most of the guff on here surely ?

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:09 pm

super_realist wrote:There is nothing wrong with the oil industry.

Again...pretty much what someone who works within the industry would say. There is plenty wrong with it as we have discussed before.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:12 pm

I never said there was anything wrong with the oil industry (Smile) although I'm sure there's much that could be a lot better.
It may well, arguably, be a course worth building and having just looked at the photo gallery it does look pretty spectacular. It's just that it sounds a lot like Trump simply ignored what he didn't want to hear about, bought out those he could, lent on those he couldn't buy and generally was going to get his way no matter what anyone else said. I seriously don't like people like that.
It may well be that long term it even has a positive impact on the habitat there but who knows? The Lord High Ego doesn't, that's for sure and he cares not a jot.
Qué sera though, 'twas ever thus. Still hope a huge wind farm gets erected overhanging the whole development though......
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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:16 pm

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:There is nothing wrong with the oil industry.

Again...pretty much what someone who works within the industry would say. There is plenty wrong with it as we have discussed before.


Diggers, I'm sure you could find a lot wrong with every industry if you have the agenda to do so. OIl industry no worse than any other.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:24 pm

Yes, Im sure every industry rapes and pillages countries natural resources without a thought for their inhabitants. I work in the Post Production for films industry though and I dont remember us ever doing that.....must have missed it.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:30 pm

Care to mention which companies do that Diggers?

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:34 pm

To be honest if you dont know the record of companies like Shell and how they operate in Africa and Central and South America you must be wearing rose tinted spectacles Super.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:38 pm

Diggers, they do not r*** and pillage. They pay for the right to be there, pay for the licence, pay taxes on everything they do.

They don't just anchor the rig, drill a well, kill a few natives and leave.

Still I'm sure you never fill up at Shell in protest.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:43 pm

Hmm, not sure whether you are naive or are actually just a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. They get a license Im sure...from very corrupt govts who they can manipulate...and then proceed to do exactly what they want with thoughts only for profit.
Its the way of the world that I have to use them as Im suret here influence is massive, that doesnt mean I have to completely blind to how they do their business.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:45 pm

What are your expectations of a company? Do you epect them to be social workers for the local population?

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:50 pm

I expect them to operate with some kind of ethical code and yes they should be looking after the local environment and the people whose lives they impact on. This is clearly not the case in many instances.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:50 pm

Super

You are either wumming even more so than your rangers effort or as diggers points out, you are seriously dumb.
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Post by super_realist on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:54 pm

I think the "corrupt" governments are more to blame than the oil companies.

It might have been true back in the day, but you won't find a single company who doesn't operate within the law these days and to a "green" agenda

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Post by Diggers on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 5:01 pm

A green agenda designed by who......oh yes, them. Gives you a bit of room for manouvere Id say.

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Post by Shotrock on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 5:03 pm

Navy - Again, don't know him personally at all, but many members of Pine Hill (Trump National Philadelphia) have plenty good to say about what he's done at their course. This place was running on fumes before Trump invested in it: http://www.trumpnationalphiladelphia.com/

So, fast forward 25 years --- was this, and his investment in Scotland "worth it"?

He's a member at Winged Foot and one of the members I played with when I played there recently said he's a delightful guy, but does not play to his (evidently vanity) handicap (reputed 8 or so at the time)!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 11 Jul 2012, 5:22 pm

Shot

I suspect that he gets probably more evil press than is warranted w/o any of the good to be fair.

S_R

One of my uncles used to work in the packaging and marketing part of British-American Tobacco and was amazed when he was informed that smoking was harmful for people. He cited all sorts of published literature to back up his point.....pity it was all literature/PR from the tobacco industry.
Do you think the behaviour of the petrochemical industry in the Niger delta has all been above board? In all regards?
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