If Scottish football does collapse could it be a good thing?

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Post by mckay1402 on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:36 am

Obviously Scottish football is in a bit of a mess at the moment and there are those who will say 'it's just Rangers' but realistically the issues with Rangers will affect the whole league. What I want to know is could it be a chance to rebuild a failing system? Scottish league football has been on the decline since the late 90's and is no longer producing players like Paul Mcstay and Gary mcallister and the idea of attracting a player of the caliber that Paul Gascgoine was when he joined Rangers is laughable.

If, as has been suggested a number of clubs collapse because they haven't got the Rangers fixture and TV money could it be a positive and allow the SFA to build a stronger more competative league?

In my opinion Scotland need the likes of Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and Killie (my club) to be strong and competing for titles or at least cups. It would be good to see Scottish clubs with a chance of reaching the second round of the chamions league. It would be nice to see us producing players who are better than the bottom half of the premiership.

I think Rangers problems could be a good thing, not just for them but for the whole league in Scotland. What do you think?
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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 10:56 am

I absolutely think it's a good thing. It's been going downhill for such a long time that it needed something like this to happen.

However the beaks at the SFA are too stupid to move to summer football and totally unwilling to ban the manager from picking players who play in the SPL until a time when the level is high enough.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:00 am

Yes and no, I see arguments for both sides. I'm "loving" the SFA's attitude towards the SFL clubs. "Vote Rangers into Division 1 and we'll help you out; if not then go censored yourselves". How about voting Rangers into Division 3 AND restructuring the leagues? Why does it have to be one or the other? Frankly, if Rangers go bust and Celtic run away down South then it'll be a very long, very painful road to recovery but we just might see an improvement in 10 years. We're never going to be a top league in Europe but I'd like to see us firmly in the top 15.
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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:18 am

And why aren't they applying for English-league membership?
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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 11:22 am

Special:

The English don't want em, it would be like Turkey's voting for Christmas, plus UEFA have said it isn't going to happen.

As for the SPL being a top 15 league. No chance, top 30 at best.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 1:31 pm

Laugh All I can do is hope then. Are there even 30 leagues in Europe? (ie 30 different associations like the FA, SFA etc)
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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:13 pm

Juan, it was ranked around 15th when they were doing well in Europe. I think from next season it's projected to be around 28th, which means from 13/14 3 rounds of Champions League qualifying, unseeded too, which also means no Scottish teams in the Champions League ever again probably.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

I think it was 15th(ish) a few years ago but when we went above 15 (to Switzerland?) we lost a CL place. But we are down 9 places to 27th now I see. Ouch; but fully deserved. Overtaken by Cyprus.
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Post by Kay Fabe on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 3:49 pm

Scottish Football won't collapse, what we need done in Scottish Football however is to out all the self preservating leeches that run our game, guys like Stewart Regan and Neil Doncaster

Those two tried to bully all 30 clubs in the lower divisions with scare tactics about major loss of TV money or inviting clubs to join an SPL2 leaving the rest behind, it was scandelous, also, the figures Regan and Doncaster spoke about in terms of what would be lost to the game have never been proven

SKY monopolise the Scottish Premier League, the deal is worth £16m per year over 5 years (£80m) however they control all of the advertising rights, now a lawyer who's specialist subject is sports Law and just happens to be Georgious Samaras' agent has highlighted how poor a deal the SPL got themselves from SKY, the lack of opportunity to market our own game and entice advertisers has severely short changed every club in Scotland simply to tale the easy money of a SKY contract, losing that deal (which won't happen) would possibly be the best thing for Scottish Football

The SPL is the 11th highest watched Professional Football League in World Football yet their TV deal is one of the worst, the guysin charge of our game who brokered that deal have the nerve to give clubs scare tactics in order to keep their precious deal in tact


As for Re-Structure, this has been a total embarassment, the SPL/SFA told the SFL that what Scottish Football truly needs is a bigger league, Play-Off's, a Pyramid system and a better distribution of cash along with the one ruling body rather than the three they have currently, now having told everyone that should be the way forward, it seems like that rout was only on the table if the SFL clubs voted Newco Rangers into Division 1 instead of Division 3???????????? Excuse me but if those plans would be for the greater good of the game then why are they not on the table regardless of what Division a Newco RFC are in!

For the record I do believe that we'll get League Reconstruction now, Scotland only needs 3 professional leagues not 4 and in doing so it will allow Rangers the opportunity to be back iin the SPL a year earlier than what it'd be currently

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Post by Ayrshirebhoy on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 6:17 pm

bit gutted with this decision tbh. ok rangers deserved to be put in 3rd. sporting integrity has been satisfied blah blah. i see a chance for league recostruction, play offs out the window

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Post by Ayrshirebhoy on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 6:22 pm

gaffer i agree with you with 3 leagues. with rangers in div 3 i can see enough clubs going belly up and we'd be lucky with 30 teams.

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Post by Kay Fabe on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 7:48 pm

I bet that for the start of season 2013/14 we'll have an SPL of 16 teams, a First Division of 16 teams and a bottom division of 10, that way we can get instant restructure and it then gives the team that wins this seasons 3rd division (probably Rangers) a rout into a new SFL1 meaning that the likelyhood of RFC being back in the top flight will be two years instead of the 3 the current format will take them

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Post by justified sinner on Fri 13 Jul 2012, 9:30 pm

Hi guys, popped across from the rugby board. My own team is QOS; sad about what's happening in Scottish football just now. Expect several teams to go into admin. Eventually the game will emerge stronger and more realistic but expect a 5 hard years.

Good luck.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 7:55 pm

I dont see what would be wrong with 50% of the professional clubs in scotland went out of business or that the all had to run with tiny budgets. The money coming into the game is clearly pittance - a reflection of how many people actually care about it - so why not run the game in scotland on that basis.

Do scottish football fans feel they are entitled to a league of high quality and big funding?

If so, why?
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Post by Kay Fabe on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 9:47 pm

Do I feel we're entitled to a league of high quality? No, I don't believe anyone is entitled to that, I believe we're entitled to hope for that and as well as good coaching it also needs good funding

Viewing figures alone suggest it should be better funded, the SPL for viewing figures alone is the 11th highest rated League in World Football yet recieves one of the worst TV deals, that alone suggests it should be better funded

Also, it was reported not that long ago that the SPL if you take into account the population of Scotland per head had the highest average attendance

It's not all sponsors faults though, the SPL clubs crippled themselves when they began budgeting their clubs around the four home games per season against the Old Firm and it stopped the majority of them ever seriously looking into the possibility of league restructure, the fan base is there, Hearts had 100,000 fans line the streets when they won the Scottish Cup in May, Chelsea who won the European Cup had 80,000, so the fan base is definitely there, Hibs took 30,000 to a Cup Final in 2004 and regularly sold out their then 17,500 capacity stadium every second week when Tony Mowbury was in charge, Aberdeen can easily get 15,000+ if the team is playing well.

However two things have happened over the last 5/6 years that have seriously effected gate figures, quality has went down and prices have gone up, certain clubs have done 'specials' and have been rewarded with bigger attendances so it proves there is still a huge appetite for the Scottish game in Scotland

To make a mockery of the pricing scheme there was one weekend last season when Rangers played Inverness Caley Thistle at ICT, the same day Manchester City played Blackburn at Ewood Park, the average price for the Blackburn/City game came in at £17 while the average price for ICT/Rangers was £23, it's just a complete scandal and it drives fans away but with twisted logic the funds (if you cna call them that) are so scarce that Chairman squeeze every last cent out of the fans who they know will back their clubs regardless which is the exact same thing that eventually drives them away from the game

Scottish Football should be better funded but it has been in a mess since 2002 when former bosses David Taylor and Lex Gold tried to hold SKY to ransom and they took their deal off the table, that decision sent Motherwell and Dundee into Administration, then Setanta appeared and gave the SPL the best deal in their history only to go under and it completely sunk Gretna and with the lack of drip feed for the rest of SFL clubs we had Livingston and Dundee go back into Administration, so there has been an element of bad luck involved.

Scottish Football has to help itself though before anyone else can help it and in doing so can help bring the fans back to the game

We need a bigger League (16 clubs)
More Promotion/Relegation opportunities available
SPL Play-Off's
European Play-Off's
Better structured pricing
Pay at the gates for matches classed C

These are all relatively easy changes that should be implimented, this is what the majority of the fans want, the biggest income for any Football club is what they generate in ticket sales, it's crazy to think that the people running our game totally ignore what the general feelings of their customers are

Also, promoting the game in this Country is ridiculous, the bosses and the media (Journalists who actually rely on our game to be successful) can't stop telling us and everyone else how bad it is, how bleak the future looks and all the woes of the Country, no-one wants to talk our game up, SKY and ESPN should be showing more Celtic games at Celtic Park, now Celtic are more likely to lose away from home than at Home but as a spectacle it's far better to showcase a decent side on a pitch they're familiar with in front of a big crowd, same with Rangers when they where in the League, it's more likely these teams will win at home than away but from a selling it point of view you have to show the Leagues best qualities and 55-60k at Celtic Park and 45-50k at Ibrox is/was our best qualities, teams playing in big stadiums infront of large crowds is what draws viewers, not games up at Inverness where there is only 3 stands and if you hit the ball 20 yards over the bar it's in the River, that makes us look amaturash

So yes, I do believe we should be better funded but funds wouldn't suddenly make everything better, we need major structural changes along with it

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Post by Liam on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm

Spot on with everything there gaffer. Ticket prices have to be realistic and the stat of the city/rovers game being more expensive than the ICT/Gers game is incredible.

The setanta deal was very unlucky because like you said they were getting a very good deal out of it.

The changes to league structure are also spot on but what you said is what is crucial here, its all pretty straight forward. Just a shame that there are bafoons running the game.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 10:17 pm

gaffer

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I am very surprised to hear that the spl has the 11th highest viewing figures of any league in the world. I do not doubt this in any way but just want to have a look at the figures for other leagues. So just wondering if you could provide a link to the viewing figure numbers?


You do have to wonder why the incentives to pay more are not there for the likes of sky? Investors clearly don't see the spl or scottish football as any sort of value, certainly not as high as the viewing figures would suggest.
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Post by Kay Fabe on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 11:31 pm

I don't actually have the viewing figures and never seen them, I'm taking the word of Gregory Ioannidis who is a Football Agent and a Lawyer and specialises in Sports Law, he was talking on TalkSport.

He's been Championing the idea that the SPL doesn't need SKY for a long time now, he compared how Countries of similar or smaller stature to Scotland get so much more, I'll give you a few examples, I'm sure most if not all will be found online

Last year a total of 3.1m fans went to SPL games and the TV rights worked out €18.75m per year
Belgium had a total of 2.8m fans through the gates and their TV rights are €47.5m per year
Switzerland had 2m fans through the gates and their deal is €36.5m per year
Norway got 1.9m fans through the gate and their deal sails home at €56m per year
Greece (who haven't got a bean) got 1.5m fans to games and their deal is worth €44m per year
Denmark managed 1.3m fans through their turnstes and their deal is worth €45m per year

You can clearly see how short changed the SPL are compared with other Countries of similar size and stature

Interestingly enough, those figures included Rangers who'll obviously be missing from new figures, however without Rangers fans the customers through the gates go from 3.1m to 2.4m which would only see us drop one place in that list above


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Post by Crimey on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 11:44 pm

Do you think that perhaps the proximity to English football harms Scotland, as it is very easy for Scottish football fans to watch English football on their TV, and they'll choose to watch that over Scottish football?

I know other countries can watch English football as well, but it's surely much more accessible in Scotland.

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Post by Kay Fabe on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 11:46 pm

I'm on my mobile and can't access a lot of sites that I need but I've found an article from a St Johnstone fan who provides a lot of links to back up the numbers (I think)

http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/the-sfaspl-tv-myth-how-we-compare-to-europe/

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Post by Kay Fabe on Tue 17 Jul 2012, 11:52 pm

Crimey wrote:Do you think that perhaps the proximity to English football harms Scotland, as it is very easy for Scottish football fans to watch English football on their TV, and they'll choose to watch that over Scottish football?

I know other countries can watch English football as well, but it's surely much more accessible in Scotland.

Personally I can't comprehend anyone choosing to watch any team over their own but I do think that it is a problem yes, I think that in the Countries listed above that their own football League is probably the most hyped, promoted and commercialised League in those respective Countries while in Scotland the EPL is better promoted than the SPL so in that sense it is a problem

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Post by Ayrshirebhoy on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 3:42 am

Crimey wrote:Do you think that perhaps the proximity to English football harms Scotland, as it is very easy for Scottish football fans to watch English football on their TV, and they'll choose to watch that over Scottish football?

I know other countries can watch English football as well, but it's surely much more accessible in Scotland.

i would say thats a major factor. about4 years ago i had sky but couldnt afford setanta and sky sports so went for sky sports because it had english football and wrestling Smile i did go freeview eventually but setanta went bust a few short months after.

these days my football is match of the day on sat nite and open all mics on bbc radio scotland. scottish football is just not very accesable imo.

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Post by Crimey on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 11:06 am

the-gaffer wrote:
Crimey wrote:Do you think that perhaps the proximity to English football harms Scotland, as it is very easy for Scottish football fans to watch English football on their TV, and they'll choose to watch that over Scottish football?

I know other countries can watch English football as well, but it's surely much more accessible in Scotland.

Personally I can't comprehend anyone choosing to watch any team over their own but I do think that it is a problem yes, I think that in the Countries listed above that their own football League is probably the most hyped, promoted and commercialised League in those respective Countries while in Scotland the EPL is better promoted than the SPL so in that sense it is a problem

I don't mean instead of their own sides, I meant as neutrals watching football. You can say that teams get a lot of attendance, but not the TV deals, but perhaps the reason is because the guys who would normally be watching it on TV actually go to the games, and the allure for neutrals is in the EPL rather than the SPL.

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Post by The Special Juan on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 12:06 pm

I think a tiny bit is down to the weather too. It's absolutely horrific at times. Scottish Football would definitely benefit from a break around December-February time for 2 weeks. Remember Fir Park a couple of years ago? Laugh
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Post by RDuncan8 on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm

The Special Juan wrote:I think a tiny bit is down to the weather too. It's absolutely horrific at times. Scottish Football would definitely benefit from a break around December-February time for 2 weeks. Remember Fir Park a couple of years ago? Laugh

Dundee Utd have postponed their friendly with Everton...summer football eh? Laugh

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Post by Eyetoldyouso on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 1:34 pm

Two thoughts as to why the TV deals in Belgium, Switzerland and Norway are more lucrative than in Scotland.

1 Perhaps these leagues are more competitive.
2 TV football viewers have more spending power therefore more advertising revenue to the broadcaster.

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Post by The Special Juan on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 1:43 pm

RDuncan8 wrote:
The Special Juan wrote:I think a tiny bit is down to the weather too. It's absolutely horrific at times. Scottish Football would definitely benefit from a break around December-February time for 2 weeks. Remember Fir Park a couple of years ago? Laugh

Dundee Utd have postponed their friendly with Everton...summer football eh? Laugh

I know Laugh . I was going to go to that as well Cry To be fair, it is freak weather.
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Post by Kay Fabe on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 8:16 pm

We always seem to get freak weather in Scotland from say the 1st of June until the 31st of August

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Wed 18 Jul 2012, 8:59 pm

Crimey wrote:Do you think that perhaps the proximity to English football harms Scotland, as it is very easy for Scottish football fans to watch English football on their TV, and they'll choose to watch that over Scottish football?

I know other countries can watch English football as well, but it's surely much more accessible in Scotland.

This plays a huge part for me no doubt about it.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 23 Jul 2012, 8:33 am

Surely the beaks at the SFA have to do something to create a different product.
It's no good running a poor quality league at the same time as the English Premier. It's obvious which one people are going to watch.
Get it into summer, play from April - September. 14-16 Teams in a league playing each other twice only.
Perhaps instigate a Scotland/Denmark/Sweden/Norway League/FA Cup to generate a bit more interest, as all those leagues are about the same standard.

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Mon 23 Jul 2012, 4:31 pm

It helps if you accept it for what it is, there wasn't much between the old firm and the big premeirship teams before foreign investment. If you want Scottish football to rival the english then you would need the same investment. Lots of people can enjoy the two. If like Crimey says they weren't neighbours it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 06 Aug 2012, 12:56 pm

Only 3 scottish based players in the squad for Australia. Says it all really.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 07 Aug 2012, 7:32 am

The Galveston Giant wrote:It helps if you accept it for what it is, there wasn't much between the old firm and the big premeirship teams before foreign investment. If you want Scottish football to rival the english then you would need the same investment. Lots of people can enjoy the two. If like Crimey says they weren't neighbours it wouldn't be an issue.

Rubbish, there is no glitz or glamour in Scotland. Few are interested in it, the stadiums bar two are poor.

The league is ranked 27th in comparison to England's 2nd.
There is a lot more than money required. Throwing money into the Bulgarian and Serbian leagues (the two ahead of the SPL) won't make them more attractive products so you have to do something different, like fewer games, 16 team league playing home and away once only and playing in the summer.

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Post by The Real Jambo on Tue 07 Aug 2012, 3:05 pm

Summer football hasent exactly set the league of Ireland on fire has it, the league needs a total overhaul,yes it needs to be bigger and not playing the same team 4 times a season but the grass roots football has to be addressed also or we will just end up with more over paid duds form overseas

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Post by super_realist on Tue 07 Aug 2012, 3:41 pm

It's ranked 13 places higher than the SPL though.Laugh so it must be doing something better than the SPL.

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Post by lorus59 on Tue 07 Aug 2012, 3:56 pm

The Real Jambo wrote:Summer football hasent exactly set the league of Ireland on fire has it, the league needs a total overhaul,yes it needs to be bigger and not playing the same team 4 times a season but the grass roots football has to be addressed also or we will just end up with more over paid duds form overseas

The League of Ireland has to compete with Gaelic games during the summer. What does Scottish football have to compete with?

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Post by super_realist on Tue 07 Aug 2012, 3:59 pm

lorus59 wrote:
The Real Jambo wrote:Summer football hasent exactly set the league of Ireland on fire has it, the league needs a total overhaul,yes it needs to be bigger and not playing the same team 4 times a season but the grass roots football has to be addressed also or we will just end up with more over paid duds form overseas

The League of Ireland has to compete with Gaelic games during the summer. What does Scottish football have to compete with?

Deep fried mars bars and buckfast.

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Post by The Real Jambo on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 8:33 am

Yes ofcourse we all eat deep fried mars bars and drink buckfast, im doing that as i type this reply. You sir are a rocket

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Post by super_realist on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 8:37 am

Come on Jambo, the Scottish league is a joke. NO reason why they should try and compete at the same time as the EPL.

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Post by The Real Jambo on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:17 am

Why not, we all know its nothing special but myself and thousands of others still turn up each week to support the clubs we love. Last week against St Johnstone we had almost 14,000 turn up to Tynecastle and we usually have an average of about 13,500 over the course of a season,obviously sell out against Hibs and Celtic.Can i ask what team you support?

We cant compete with the EPL,but really what league in the world can.They are the most watched league in the world,and belive it or not the Champioship is the second most watched above the Spanish,German,Italian and french leagues

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:34 am

super_realist wrote:Come on Jambo, the Scottish league is a joke. NO reason why they should try and compete at the same time as the EPL.

When are you moving to England super? What countries are still allowed to play football, they can't all be like the EPL.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:35 am

I think Jambo, that the SPL have rather a high opinion of themselves, that somehow they don't need to change and that despite their UEFA ranking of 27 they think they are more like a 10.

Next season it is pretty much guaranteed that no Scottish club can make it to through qualifying, so they need to do something

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:43 am

I say play summer football, guaranteed to have us playing like the EPL. Imagine the money it would bring. Then create a northern League with Scandinavia etc so the clubs can spend all their money on travelling around Europe every week.
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Post by The Real Jambo on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:44 am

Yes the SFA are up themselves and i dont like them atall so we agree on that, But its very negative to think we have no chance of Qualifying in Europe, Celtic have a great chance if the draw isnt too unkind and Hearts may also get lucky with a decent tie.Remember Realist we are a tiny nation in terms of population compared to England more people = more fans.
So i will ask again what team do you support?

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Post by Crimey on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:47 am

He supports Dundee United.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:48 am

Jambo, I'm talking about the season after the coming one. Due to the league coefficient and ranking of the SPL from 13/14 the winners of the SPL will not be seeded in qualification rounds, they will therefore be coming up against top teams from Europes top leagues (i.e the likes of Dortmund, Arsenal, Ajax etc) should they even make it through the preliminary rounds.

They might sneak through this year, but that is likely to be it in the Champions League for a very long time indeed.

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Post by The Real Jambo on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 9:57 am

What can really be done to get the fans back, bigger league? playoffs? it needs worked on from the ground up starting with our young people, and for armchair fans to get off their backsides and support their clubs there are way to many kids and even adults wearing the shirts Man UTD ,Chelsea,Liverpool ect

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 10:00 am

I think Scotland should be proud to have a team in the Champions league and to expect one in there every season you would have to be deluded, or watch too much of the EPL.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 10:10 am

I think the amount of plastic Old Firm fans too. The east of Scotland os full of them with no connection culturally or geographically.

I really think that playing each other 4 times a year is too many, summer football would improve the chances of european qualification and be more pleasant for the spectators too.

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Post by The Galveston Giant on Fri 10 Aug 2012, 10:21 am

super_realist wrote:I think the amount of plastic Old Firm fans too. The east of Scotland os full of them with no connection culturally or geographically.

I really think that playing each other 4 times a year is too many, summer football would improve the chances of european qualification and be more pleasant for the spectators too.

It's not going to change the quality on the pitch though. Where is your connection to Dundee Utd?
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