I hate modern 460cc drivers!!

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I hate modern 460cc drivers!! Empty I hate modern 460cc drivers!!

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:54 pm

As Tommy Cooper might have said, "I want to tell you a story."...

I used to be a good driver of the ball with the old fashioned drivers. Had a Maruman persimmon which was awesome and I could work it both ways at will although my stock shot has always been a draw.
Of course, proper persimmon was gradually replaced with the newer fangled "Pittsburgh" variety to be followed by titanium and all Hell broke loose. Not satisfied with modern metals in their initial incarnations, the OEMs messed about with the COR and volume of the typical driver clubhead such that we now address the ball with a veritable balloon-on-a-stick. Shafts have got longer and longer such that a 46" driver isn't unusual these days.
Has this been a good thing? Well, it might be for you lot out there but my driving is routinely rubbish these days. Doesn't matter what 460cc monstrosity I use, it's pants. Hit the ball flush with them but it's either a nice, high block/fade or I over-compensate and it's a nice pull/draw or hook. Tried a lot of shafts/heads and it's still pants.
Oddly enough, I still hit every other club in the bag well and my current 3-wood (a strong 13° TM w/ an ~90g shaft that I put in there a couple of weeks ago after the latest driver got left in the garage) is a bomb that I hit with a nice push/draw and goes only maybe 20 yards less than one of my (rare!) decent shots with a driver. Not only is the 3-wood a bomb but the reduced roll out on tee shots means even if I do push/pull one a bit, it sits down well and doesn't often reach the deep cabbage.
My theory (at least as it goes with my swing) is that it's pretty difficult to reliably square the clubface of these modern drivers leading to plenty of rubbish. Tunability of the modern adjustable drivers seems to be another nice gimmick that the OEMs have come up with to make us part with money as well and makes chuff all difference to my drives.
The solution for me (apart from sticking with my strong 3-wood at the moment) is going to be to look in to some of the older tech drivers - by which I mean some of the ~250cc models like the Titleist 975d or Callaway's original Big Bertha incarnations - and see if I get some of the old reliability/accuracy back even it comes at the expense of a few yards cf. the most modern tech.

Anyone else out there think the modern 460cc drivers aren't quite all they're cracked up to be?
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Post by super_realist on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:23 pm

I'm waiting on a response from Mac.


'I hate steel shafts'

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Post by oldshanker on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:04 pm

Played for many years with persimmon headed woods and whilst I recognise that ball technology also has a lot to say in this matter - I have never driven the ball straighter and further, with a little effort as I do now!

I like the big dogs doodads, if only they could sound as good as a persimmon head and also give you that sweet, sweet feeling of a well flushed shot, hit out of the teeny weeny sweet spot. Yahoo
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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:04 am

its all about what works for you mate..

but i am sure there is a modern driver for you. I have two titliset 13 degree 3 woods and a tm r11 adjustable. My steel shafted pt 13 degree goes a mile and is easy to shape, but my tm has a much more consitant carry and bal trajectory(higher launch) same goes for modern drivers as well.

I have the titliest 975d(hot face), The club goes miles and has a great swinging draw- but its got an illegal face these days so i dont play with it any more. My TM R11 driver is much harder to shape and took along time playing about with the settings to get it working really well for me. But its not bad

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Post by oldshanker on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:08 am

oldshanker wrote:Played for many years with persimmon headed woods and whilst I recognise that ball technology also has a lot to say in this matter - I have never driven the ball straighter and further, with a little effort as I do now!

I like the big dogs doodads, if only they could sound as good as a persimmon head and also give you that sweet, sweet feeling of a well flushed shot, hit out of the teeny weeny sweet spot. Yahoo

Just realised that the above does not make it clear - I use a big driver and would be very reluctant to change back.
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Post by McLaren on Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:59 am

I started the game playing with an old set of wooden headed drivers but I really don’t remember what that was like. I have since bought a few wooden woods to experiment with and the feel is so much better than the modern combination of graphite shaft and titanium head. Hickory shafts are nice but can feel really bad with anything other than the sweet spot, and the ball goes nowhere. The best combination I have found is the Wilson Sam snead signature (1960’s, exact model escapes me right now) woods.

They have a persimmon head a steel shaft and just feel so nice to hit. After hitting these clubs I can see how the rather clinical feel of a modern driver would not be to everyone’s liking. I –and I assume navy? – am not convinced that the modern drivers are any more accurate than the drivers of old. The average length no matter where the ball comes off the clubface is far superior with a modern driver so unfortunately you are at a real disadvantage when using a wooden club.

On my “how long are you” thread a few weeks back the average drive of people using this board came out at about 240 carry. Imagine we all started to use older clubs and the average fell to 200!!! we would think that even the shortest course had become impossibly hard as we would be coming in with long irons and woods to almost every par 4 over 350 yards. A 400 yard hole would be on the very of unreachable in two for almost all players.
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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:16 am

I can't get on with the breeze block on a stick type either NBS. When I bought my first driver I got the TM 540. I did try the 580 but didn't like it. Took me a while to upgrade; had a Callaway fusion (original version) and them went to the TM R7 TP which I think is 425cc, it may even be smaller.

The head size of the new drivers puts me off and I much prefer the small headed clubs. You just have to look at fairway woods and hybrids now. Woods are old drivers and hybrids are the old fairway woods. The driving iron type hybrid is falling by the wayside.

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Post by super_realist on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:17 am

I remember my first driver. A persimmon number without the loft even specified, just a big "1" on it , probably very cheap, it was an an adult club with a whipped on head, at least a foot cut off it, a perished grip with what I remember as formica face, screwed in with crude screws by my grandad.

I remember using it the first time I hit a par three in regulation, also sinking the putt for my first ever birdie.
Good memories.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:28 am

Mac pessimmons went miles from what i can remmeber- however it was more about roll. These days its all about drop and stop and the new equipment carries alot furthar..

Carrying on from SR's comment i remeber my first eagle when i was a kid(about 11). hitting a pessimmon driver onto a very short par 4 at a 9 hole course(new addington 3rd hole) and sinking the putt-- good times

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Post by oldshanker on Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:43 am

A 200 yard carry with a persimmon headed driver was an exceptional shot indeed, right up until new ball technology took over. There was some roll of course, but the preferred ball flight then was a low boring flight, with a rising finish that tended to restrict ball roll unless you could keep it below 20 feet all the way, when it would bound forward, but the carry then would be below 200 yards.

It was quite normal to be using a very long iron into a par 4 green and don't forget, everyone also carried 2 or 2+ irons, some even 1+ irons and 1-3 woods, with some even using 1-5 woods. 9 irons were rare, as were pitching wedges, gap and lob wedges had never been heard of.

But the real difference was in the balls, I believe that if you use a persimmon wood with todays balls, you would hit a sweet shot just as far as modern drivers. Maybe NBS could confirm that for me.
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Post by barragan on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:40 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Carrying on from SR's comment i remeber my first eagle when i was a kid(about 11). hitting a pessimmon driver onto a very short par 4 at a 9 hole course(new addington 3rd hole) and sinking the putt-- good times
[anything you can do - i can do better!!!] Wink

started with a wooden headed 3 and 5 wood with steel shaft. Still got the 5 at home but a friend sent the head of the 3 a good bit further than the ball after a particularly downward strike . He was a shinty player and his swing was a little 'different' -- good times!

Can't remember doing anything spectacular myself with them.

My favourite driver I've used was a 360cc ( i think ) big bertha. Never been able to shape the ball or get the same distance or consistent striking from my G15.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:50 pm

Not that this happens to any of you guys in reality...

Cold winter, Sunday morning medal, few beverages on board the previous night, running a little late, arrive at course, couple of swings, ball on tee, unsteady (if not downright shakey).

Pull out massive headed driver and thank the lord! I should be able to hit the damn thing at least.




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Post by incontinentia on Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:53 pm

navyblue- have you considered getting a 3 wood with 10 degrees of loft and a slightly longer shaft? Does anyone know what the difference would be between such a club and a standard 460cc driver?
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Post by super_realist on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:04 pm

I doubt you'd find a three wood with 10 deg. Least loft i've seen was 12.5.

Three woods are easier to hit than drivers due to increased lofts and a shorter shaft. All you would be doing is creating a retro looking driver with a smaller head, same loft as a normal driver and a driver length shaft.

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Post by BlueCoverman on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:09 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:Not that this happens to any of you guys in reality...

Cold winter, Sunday morning medal, few beverages on board the previous night, running a little late, arrive at course, couple of swings, ball on tee, unsteady (if not downright shakey).

Pull out massive headed driver and thank the lord! I should be able to hit the damn thing at least.




clap So true!

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Post by incontinentia on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:26 pm

super_realist wrote:I doubt you'd find a three wood with 10 deg. Least loft i've seen was 12.5.

Three woods are easier to hit than drivers due to increased lofts and a shorter shaft. All you would be doing is creating a retro looking driver with a smaller head, same loft as a normal driver and a driver length shaft.
That's the point super, if someone hates hitting a big headed driver then why not customise a 3 wood head and create a small headed driving club. I'm guessing the difference between such a club and a 460cc driver would be increased accuracy and slightly less distance, which most serious players would accept.
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Post by super_realist on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:28 pm

Incontinent,
THats what I'm saying, it isn't the small head that makes it accurate, it's the increased loft and shorter shaft which make them easier to hit.

If you make a three wood into a 10 deg club and increase the length of the shaft you have in effect just created a small headed driver. It won't be any easier to hit at all and no more accurate either due to the loft and shaft length.

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Post by George1507 on Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:38 pm

I tried my old Joe Powell Persimmon driver again a few weeks ago, for the first time in several years. It's a bit of a shock when you swing a club with such a small head. Never mind worrying about missing the sweet spot, I was worrying I might miss it entirely.

Anyway, with a few practice shots first, I tried 20 shots with my old driver, then 20 with my Taylormade r7. Using roughly the same sort of balls, the ones that came out of the sweet spot on my persimmon went almost as far as the best ones with my r7. There was about 6 yards difference on average.

On off centre hits though, there was about 25 yards difference in favour of the r7. There were far more that came off the middle of the r7 than the persimmon. So it does make a big difference.

Mac - even with current club and ball technology, a 400 yard hole is a real challenge for most club players. I did some research in 2009, and fewer than 10% of the field managed to get on a 411 yard hole in two in a club competition. That was on a fine July day, with a slight cross breeze, in a reasonable summer where the ball was rolling a bit. (I imagine in 2012, that number would be less, since we are playing on paddy fields at the moment).

Those findings confirmed what most people on here know - golfers overestimate how far they hit the ball. Of the people who missed the green, the overwhelming majority were between 15 and 30 yards short. The bunker at the front right saw plenty of action too. Hardly anyone was over the green, and if I recall correctly, those that were long were in the back apron, no further.

I don't know how many of the players who came up short were right at the end of their range (ie played a driver and a fairway wood), or whether people just underclubbed.

It also showed really clearly, that chipping is a crucial part of the game - most people didn't get up and down in two. If someone wants to improve their handicap, chipping practice will pay serious dividends very quickly.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:59 pm

"Mac - even with current club and ball technology, a 400 yard hole is a
real challenge for most club players. I did some research in 2009, and
fewer than 10% of the field managed to get on a 411 yard hole in two in a
club competition"

is it up a cliff?

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:11 pm

On a serious note i think your right, most ams come up short..

short game is of ultra importance.. But clubbing is as well. many just simply club to short by hitting the wrong club.. Many players arnt visualising the shot. Its all about getting it to the flag or green not just looking at a yardage and whacking it..

Course management may tell you to play the percentage shot and sometimes by leaving a simple chip from the front is actually playing percentage, being bold and taking maybe too much club can get you in alot more trouble so maybe that could be a problem sub consciously

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Post by McLaren on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:24 pm

George

I tried to put something together to determine how long a par 4 would have to be to describe it as drivable par 4. I might post it as i think the results will surprise many.

With modern technology I cant reach an uphill 420 yard par 4 at my club if there is more than a two club wind.
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Post by super_realist on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:27 pm

Mac, as far as I remember there isn't a 420 uphiller at Braids

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Post by McLaren on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:41 pm

hole 6

http://clubsg.skygolf.com/courses/scorecard.php?id=315572
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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:50 pm

what are you talking about re: drivable par 4!

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Post by McLaren on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:02 pm

As in a par four that you can drive.

Eg Riviera 10th.
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Post by mystiroakey on Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:05 pm

Ok..

go on

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Post by George1507 on Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:30 am

mystiroakey wrote:"Mac - even with current club and ball technology, a 400 yard hole is a
real challenge for most club players. I did some research in 2009, and
fewer than 10% of the field managed to get on a 411 yard hole in two in a
club competition"

is it up a cliff?

No, slightly downhill if anything. Some trees, no fairway bunker, two bunkers either side of the front of the green.

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Post by super_realist on Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:23 am

McLaren wrote:As in a par four that you can drive.

Eg Riviera 10th.

Or TOC 3,9,10,12 and 18.
5 on one course is absurd. No wonder its such a rubbish and boring open venue.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:01 am

incontinentia wrote:navyblue- have you considered getting a 3 wood with 10 degrees of loft and a slightly longer shaft? Does anyone know what the difference would be between such a club and a standard 460cc driver?
Played up at Market Rasen yesterday in a Society (excellent, shortish and pretty tight course BTW if anyone's ever up there) with something like you suggest. I got a TM V-steel Tour Spoon (13° 3-wood) off eBay the other week for a few quid and put a Graphite Design YS8.1 in it at 43.5" finished length and am pleased to announce, it's a bomb. Getting about 240-250 out of it off the tee and that's all carry given the wet state of the course. Accurate and none of these stupid high block/cut or over-compensated pull shots.
Pretty happy and the driver is staying put.....in the garage. Will still try and get hold of a Titleist 975d off eBay at a suitably cheap price some time as I have another shaft idling in the garage in need of a home.
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