Cut the nose to spite the face

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 12 Aug 2012, 5:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Did they just cut the nose to spite the face ?

Yes indeed ECB cut their nose to spite their face.

With 7000 runs, 88 tests @ 50+ average, a big 100 in his last overseas innings in Lanka to keep England hanging in as No. 1 and another big hundred in what was defnitely his LAST test to yet again keep them hanging by a flimsy thread as No.1....KP's status as their biggest superstar in the last 3 decades and a legend in English cricket is already confirmed.


The intent obviously was to "hit back and hurt back".......instead of finding ways to reconcile and move forward.
Unfortunately ECB's timing was as bad as their intent.
.
If it was repraminding and putting down a newbie with 20 odd tests and 1500 runs.....then ECB's intent to "hit back and hurt" may have worked.......but here they have probably added martyrdom to an exisiting superstardom.

KP could have finished with 9000 or even 10,000 runs in the next 3 years....even without those extra 2,000 runs runs..nothing changes in his standing as a cricketer...the loser is English cricket.

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 12:22 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I am hoping we can take the no.1 back next year. But then you might be looking into the fixtures etc and making a valid judgement. I have no idea what the schedule is

India Away
NZ Away
NZ Home
Australia Home
Australia Away

That's the schedule until the end of 2013.

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 12:23 pm

Ok cheers duty. It should be possible to regain the no.1 spot late 2013 then.. Unless the boks win everything they play which in fairness i wouldnt be suprised at..

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Post by chrisss on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:38 pm

Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:41 pm

chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

If KP comes back, I'm finished with English cricket until he retires.

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:48 pm

Strong words from the biggest england fan on this forum!


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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:52 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Strong words from the biggest england fan on this forum!


We cannot allow KP back into the England side. The ECB set their stall out after KP sent those text messages to the SA team and to allow KP back in will show a meek surrender. I'd rather have a bloke who averages 35 in Tests that is proud to wear the shirt, than a ego-hungry maniac like KP who isn't proud to wear the shirt and averages 50.

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:54 pm

I am not gonna judge him completely as i dont know what ahd why he texted.

I am gonna have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one myself

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Post by msp83 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 7:54 pm

chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

That indeed is a good bit of news. Pietersen is England's best bet across formats in all conditions, and the sooner he's back the better it is!.

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:13 pm

The plight of English batting to some ordinary spinners.......would be a big red warning signal..........he will be back for India series
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Post by msp83 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:16 pm

They may not add him to the India touring party now. Perhaps he will be back for the ODIS?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:16 pm

KP_fan wrote:The plight of English batting to some ordinary spinners.......would be a big red warning signal..........he will be back for India series

As Mat has said on another thread, only 2 of those batsmen playing today have a chance of playing in the Test Series.

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:18 pm

why dont we just have our odi team playing this thing?

dont get this use rubbish players approach just because they have shown less tecnique and slogged stuff in certain situations than our odi team!!

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:The plight of English batting to some ordinary spinners.......would be a big red warning signal..........he will be back for India series

As Mat has said on another thread, only 2 of those batsmen playing today have a chance of playing in the Test Series.

I agree.......Eng will not be 9 down for 60.....with their batting they will get to 200 to 250ish on an average.
As I said before...I expect Cook and Trott to show good credible cricket....and some lower order blitz from Prior.

India will be about 100 to 150 runs more consistently than English batting.
To minimize that gap and improve their chances...they need to get their best batsmen if they put their cricket before anything else.

Else they can be all hold hands in a circle...put a Barnie in between and sing the Famous @ We are a Happy Family"
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:27 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:The plight of English batting to some ordinary spinners.......would be a big red warning signal..........he will be back for India series

As Mat has said on another thread, only 2 of those batsmen playing today have a chance of playing in the Test Series.

I agree.......Eng will not be 9 down for 60.....with their batting they will get to 200 to 250ish on an average.
As I said before...I expect Cook and Trott to show good credible cricket....and some lower order blitz from Prior.

India will be about 100 to 150 runs more consistently than English batting.
To minimize that gap and improve their chances...they need to get their best batsmen if they put their cricket before anything else.

Else they can be all hold hands in a circle...put a Barnie in between and sing the Famous @ We are a Happy Family"

Don't delete these posts, I'm going to throw them all back in your face after England have beaten India in India.

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 8:52 pm

REMINDER...of a cold fact...
within a game of not having KP Eng lost their test match No.1 Ranking
and within 3 games in T20
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Post by JDizzle on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 9:03 pm

KP_fan wrote:REMINDER...of a cold fact...
within a game of not having KP Eng lost their test match No.1 Ranking
and within 3 games in T20

Talking about facts, England only won 3 of the last 9 Test Matches KP played. And they went to number one in the world in the ODI format almost as soon as he retired.

You can prove anything with statistics.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 9:30 pm

KP_fan wrote:REMINDER...of a cold fact...
within a game of not having KP Eng lost their test match No.1 Ranking
and within 3 games in T20

Another reminder of a cold fact:

With KP in the side, England lost 3-0 to Pakistan.

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Post by Shelsey93 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 10:02 pm

As it currently stands KP has said he is available for all formats.

But his original 'retirement' remains significant in his potential selection for limited-overs teams. In retiring he forced the selectors to spend time deciding how to replace him. It isn't fair on those replacements for him to 'un-retire' and be immediately selected, particularly when its clear that he lied about his original reasons for retirement.

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Post by KP_fan on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 10:09 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:As it currently stands KP has said he is available for all formats.

But his original 'retirement' remains significant in his potential selection for limited-overs teams. In retiring he forced the selectors to spend time deciding how to replace him. It isn't fair on those replacements for him to 'un-retire' and be immediately selected, particularly when its clear that he lied about his original reasons for retirement.

there are many little biter n sweet reasons n justifications ( excuses) to not have him....including the BIG...we are a happy family without him.
BUT England need him
He showed in last T20 world cup and in this IPL ( aganst quality spinners).....as an opener he can blast 70 odd in no time.........and the match is half won.

One man can make a diffrence easily in T20....this man makes a diffrence in all formats
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Post by chrisss on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 10:21 pm

Shelsey93 wrote:As it currently stands KP has said he is available for all formats.

But his original 'retirement' remains significant in his potential selection for limited-overs teams. In retiring he forced the selectors to spend time deciding how to replace him. It isn't fair on those replacements for him to 'un-retire' and be immediately selected, particularly when its clear that he lied about his original reasons for retirement.

Well as far as the one day team is concerned, I think it's pretty likely that he'd be replacing Bopara, not Bell. Just a hunch Very Happy

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Post by Shelsey93 on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 10:23 pm

chrisss wrote:

Well as far as the one day team is concerned, I think it's pretty likely that he'd be replacing Bopara, not Bell. Just a hunch Very Happy

Yes. That is an opening which has potentially come up. With KP and Trott in the side, England have enough part-time overs without Ravi. Wouldn't have done that before SA though, and I'd even argue now that, after quite a long break, Ravi should probably play in the India ODIs.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:53 am

as a gesture of his commitment to Eng....KP might accept a contract of 1 year validity...same as for otehr palyers.
this agreement might be reached within a week...all forces are aligned except Flower ( according to Daily mail)

Kevin Pietersen is on the verge of landing a new 12-month ECB central contract.

Pietersen is believed to have been in talks with ECB bosses during his stay in Sri Lanka as an impressive TV pundit and there is now some light at the end of the tunnel.

Far from the relationship becoming more distant between the two parties, talks are believed to have gone well, with a deal close to being wrapped up by the end of the month.

Exiled since the third Test match against South Africa in August, Pietersen’s time in the wilderness looks set to end in the New Year with the new deal coming too late to add him to the Test tour to India. There are still I’s to be dotted and T’s to be crossed before he puts pen to paper, but it is expected that Pietersen will have a 12 month contract in line with the rest of the players.
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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:37 am

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:The plight of English batting to some ordinary spinners.......would be a big red warning signal..........he will be back for India series

As Mat has said on another thread, only 2 of those batsmen playing today have a chance of playing in the Test Series.

I agree.......Eng will not be 9 down for 60.....with their batting they will get to 200 to 250ish on an average.
As I said before...I expect Cook and Trott to show good credible cricket....and some lower order blitz from Prior.

India will be about 100 to 150 runs more consistently than English batting.
To minimize that gap and improve their chances...they need to get their best batsmen if they put their cricket before anything else.

Else they can be all hold hands in a circle...put a Barnie in between and sing the Famous @ We are a Happy Family"

Don't delete these posts, I'm going to throw them all back in your face after England have beaten India in India.
And what if India beat England?

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:39 am

Duty281 wrote:
chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

If KP comes back, I'm finished with English cricket until he retires.
And unless KP comes back, I am finished with English cricket. Here's hoping they are beaten black and blue in India.

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Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:44 am

If India beat England? Don't you mean WHEN India beat England? 4-0 without a shadow of a doubt, and I said that before yesterdays debacle.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:45 am

Fists of Fury wrote:If India beat England? Don't you mean WHEN India beat England? 4-0 without a shadow of a doubt, and I said that before yesterdays debacle.
Haha! A 4-0 hammering might not be a bad thing in the long run if that means KP is back. At least England would have a good team for the Ashes. If he doesn't come back, Mcgrath's usual 5-0 prediction might well turn out to be prove. Tumbleweed

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:48 am

Pallekele track is turning more than I expected. If West Indies qualify(I have a sneaky feeling Ireland might upset them today), watching these jokers against Narine would be fun. Kevin Who? Well, England's best batsman.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:57 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Pallekele track is turning more than I expected. If West Indies qualify(I have a sneaky feeling Ireland might upset them today), watching these jokers against Narine would be fun. Kevin Who? Well, England's best batsman.
Interestingly Shanky, people were joking Kevin who? during England's first match, and now after this they get worked up if you mention Pietersen!.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:01 am

msp83 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Pallekele track is turning more than I expected. If West Indies qualify(I have a sneaky feeling Ireland might upset them today), watching these jokers against Narine would be fun. Kevin Who? Well, England's best batsman.
Interestingly Shanky, people were joking Kevin who? during England's first match, and now after this they get worked up if you mention Pietersen!.
Hypocrisy is the word.

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Post by Stella on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:39 pm

Just to remind people that Pietersen retired from T20's before he got dropped from the team.
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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:57 pm

And also unretired 15 days before the squad announcement which sadly seems to have escaped the minds of some people... Tumbleweed

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Post by Stella on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:02 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:And also unretired 15 days before the squad announcement which sadly seems to have escaped the minds of some people... Tumbleweed

Point taken.
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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 6:08 pm

msp83 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Pallekele track is turning more than I expected. If West Indies qualify(I have a sneaky feeling Ireland might upset them today), watching these jokers against Narine would be fun. Kevin Who? Well, England's best batsman.
Interestingly Shanky, people were joking Kevin who? during England's first match, and now after this they get worked up if you mention Pietersen!.

Interestingly msp you're wrong. I just went over the comments of the England-Afghanistan game, the only mentions of KP were:
-hoggy_bear who in his only post I think in the topic said "who needs Pietersen when you've got Luke Wright?"
- PSW who said "we're a long way from "Kevin who?""

So that is one person (who hasn't otherwise posted, so can't possibly be "worked up if you mention Pietersen").

As a comparison, during the England game against India you mentioned the absence of KP 3 times on that thread, and at least once on the "England can't play spin" thread (before it degenerated) as a blatant attempt to get a rise out of people.

The only hypocrisy is someone who is allegedly an England fan (indeed england's biggest fan) being pleased with a crushing defeat, and all but wishing for a 4-0 defeat in India.

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Post by DouglasJardinesbox on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:27 pm

Duty281 wrote:
chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

If KP comes back, I'm finished with English cricket until he retires.

I think having our best player back in the test team (don't care about the other stuff) is a better proposition than not having you as a fan. Just my opinion of course....and I was outraged when they dropped him, as I was going to Lords on 2 days. But I still went along and shouted on 'my' team, irrespective of how pathetic the decison was.

See what I did there?

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:27 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

If KP comes back, I'm finished with English cricket until he retires.
And unless KP comes back, I am finished with English cricket. Here's hoping they are beaten black and blue in India.

Better ask one of the mods then to change your username.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:30 pm

DouglasJardinesbox wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
chrisss wrote:Looks likes a reconciliation is about to happen:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-set-for-new-12-month-1339091

If KP comes back, I'm finished with English cricket until he retires.

I think having our best player back in the test team (don't care about the other stuff) is a better proposition than not having you as a fan. Just my opinion of course....and I was outraged when they dropped him, as I was going to Lords on 2 days. But I still went along and shouted on 'my' team, irrespective of how pathetic the decison was.

See what I did there?

KP's ability has improved tenfold since he last played it would seem. People seem to forget that KP was probably the most criticised England player on this site when he was playing regularly.

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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:42 pm

To be fair to DJ he was one of KP's biggest fans before the fiasco - IIRC he defended him fairly staunchly after he got out for 40odd in the first innings of the SA series trying to hook Kallis.

Personally as I said I think Anderson and Prior are as good if not better than Pietersen in their respective positions, but I can understand people rating Pietersen as England's best, although those who say he's the "best [batsman/player] by a mile" are far from the mark (IMO).

I'm not really an England fan (I support France Yahoo - then any associate/affiliate out of sympathy, then probably Australia, then England), but I don't support England any more or less with or without Pietersen.

I do think you can't actually call yourself a supporter of a side if you actually want them to fail. And I think it's bordering on disrespectful towards the guys who replace Pietersen in the side.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:11 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/

Alec Stewart on BBC

England player power 'must be quashed'
Former Test captain Alec Stewart says any anti-Kevin Pietersen factions in the England dressing room must be broken up

Outside work you can pick and choose who you wish to socialise with, but during working hours you have to find a way of getting on with people. In my career, there were always players who did not get on, but it is part of the skill of the leaders to get everyone performing for the good of the team.

We all know that the loss of Pietersen weakens the England team alarmingly.
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Post by msp83 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:23 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Pallekele track is turning more than I expected. If West Indies qualify(I have a sneaky feeling Ireland might upset them today), watching these jokers against Narine would be fun. Kevin Who? Well, England's best batsman.
Interestingly Shanky, people were joking Kevin who? during England's first match, and now after this they get worked up if you mention Pietersen!.

Interestingly msp you're wrong. I just went over the comments of the England-Afghanistan game, the only mentions of KP were:
-hoggy_bear who in his only post I think in the topic said "who needs Pietersen when you've got Luke Wright?"
- PSW who said "we're a long way from "Kevin who?""

So that is one person (who hasn't otherwise posted, so can't possibly be "worked up if you mention Pietersen").

As a comparison, during the England game against India you mentioned the absence of KP 3 times on that thread, and at least once on the "England can't play spin" thread (before it degenerated) as a blatant attempt to get a rise out of people.

The only hypocrisy is someone who is allegedly an England fan (indeed england's biggest fan) being pleased with a crushing defeat, and all but wishing for a 4-0 defeat in India.
Mike thanks for the stats. But what I said was that I didn't see anyone who are now getting irritated with mentions of Pietersen after England's most recent performance had nothing to say in response to the 2 comments you reproduced above? I have to admit my comments were very much aimed at the kind of Kevin Who comments not only on that particular post but across the forum.
People mention Pragyan Ojha in India's context, people talk about Roach in the context of the West Indies....... They aren't part of the actual cricket going on, but that happens. Stuart, Vaughan, Agnew, and a number of others talk about Pietersen, and they talk loud after performances like the one against India. Stuart is now talking about player power in the context of Pietersen's exclusion. I think that is a very worrying thing and rather than condoning it, Andy Flower has to put an end to that nonsense if he has to earn his money.

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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:17 pm

In fairness my previous post was perhaps unnecessarily snappy, I apologise for that.

Just because the media are talking about KP doesn't mean we have to tho. And I have nothing against people discussing KP, it just doesn't have to be on each and every thread.

And I don't like being called a hypocrite. Particularly when I haven't done anything hypocritical.

As I say, there weren't really any "Kevin who?" posts other than Hoggy's. Which so far has been his only contribution. It wasn't helpful, but I thought clearly intended as a joke, and wasn't followed up so not worth commenting on.

your post suggested that those making the "kevin who" posts were also complaining about the "England collapse without KP" posts - that was not the case.

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Post by msp83 on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 7:29 am

To make my point clear, people bring Pitersen into the debate jokingly when England do well and noone had a problem with that, this happened during the ODI series against SA as well, and when England go down and when the Pietersen question comes up many have a problem.
I could have taken a more positive view of those comments of people who have a problem with the KP debate after England's loss reacted when those earlier comments were made.
Mike you yourself had reacted on those lines with a different potential debate when someone mentioned Harbhajan benefited from Essex and the county didn't do so stuff.

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:26 am

msp83 wrote:To make my point clear, people bring Pitersen into the debate jokingly when England do well and noone had a problem with that, this happened during the ODI series against SA as well

In the case of the Afghanistan match not so. One person, with his only comment on the thread.

I wasn't around for the South African series.

So there has certainly been no hypocrisy on my part and I resent the implication that there has been.

msp83 wrote:Mike you yourself had reacted on those lines with a different potential debate when someone mentioned Harbhajan benefited from Essex and the county didn't do so stuff.

I honestly have no idea what you're on about, could you expand?

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Post by msp83 on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:43 am

Mike Selig Yesterday at 1:03 am

.Oooh is this the time when we bring up the "does allowing all these foreigners over to play in England harm the England side? the counties should be ashamed of themselves for employing (insert name) so he can get acclimatised to English conditions/figure out english batsmen/get used to English foot/whatever" debate?

Please, anything to distract from...!

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:51 am

Yes, I know, it was my attempt to move away from the KP debate (it didn't work). What's your point?

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Post by msp83 on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:54 am

Now as far as my point of people having an inconsistent point on the Pietersen question is not particularly you Mike. A number of people, many respected posters have made it. But All I am saying is they are at times inconsistent and impossible. Impossible in the sense that you can't just stay focused on the actual cricket played all the time, a player not selected due to whatever reason may or may not have made a difference. We are debating on the basis of probability based on the individuals past performance, impact, composition of the side, conditions and many other factors. TO say you can't exactly predict the outcome of a player being included and therefore there is no point in discussing him/her is a bit pointless for me.
It is only natural that the grounds of Pietersen's exclusion would come in for critical scrutiny each time England implode the way they did against India.

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Post by KP_fan on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:55 am

Eng's never had a player like KP....he's excpetional...says Michael Vaughan

Kevin Pietersen should return for India Tests, says Michael Vaughan

"I don't think England have ever had a player like him. He's exceptional."

Pietersen had said he hoped to be back to tour New Zealand in February but Vaughan believes the batsman could make the difference if recalled earlier.

"If (captain) Alastair Cook wants him back in the team and all the issues have been resolved, I would not want to be waiting four games to get him back in," he said.

"They could lose four games. It could be 4-0 in India if England are not careful and they don't play spin better

"The venues England are playing at all suit India. They are all low, slow spinning wickets and I wouldn't want to go there without my best players.

"I'm sure the selectors would want to see their best players and I'm sure they'll want to pick Pietersen.

Pietersen, if it has been resolved, get him back in for India, because Cook does not want to start on a real bad shoeing.

"If you lose in India badly, you then go to New Zealand and they are not a push over any more."

We're not talking about someone who is an ordinary player, we're talking about a maverick," added Vaughan


full article here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/19670578
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Post by msp83 on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 9:59 am

Mike Selig wrote:Yes, I know, it was my attempt to move away from the KP debate (it didn't work). What's your point?

Well I read it as you having felt that the discussion was getting off track by getting into the county vs the foreign player debate. My point was that you reacted on just that one comment although there was no follow up.
Now you had a different objective, so fair enough.

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 10:07 am

Right got you. Cross wires.

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Post by msp83 on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 10:53 am

Mike Selig wrote:Right got you. Cross wires.
Indeed!.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 25 Sep 2012, 2:53 pm

I've just put a tribute to Harry Pilling on the County section. A lot of that probably explains the background to my own interest in the game and why I can't get too excited about Kevin Pietersen's exclusion from the Test side.

Not particularly trying to influence others here but merely show what is important to me and that childhood memories run deep. Anyway, enough of the Cantona like cod psychology.

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