Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

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Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Sun 23 Sep 2012, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :



--Boy of Boy !...the implications of England's display against spin are far reaching beyond the context of the dead game today..or even this world cup.

--It wasn't even a square turning, jumping spin-top...just a slow turner.

--It wasn't even the first choice Indian spinning attack.....wasn't even India's second choice spin attack.....it was 3rd tier.

in a test match Ashwin, Ojha, Dharekar, Rahul sharma and now even Harmeet are ahead in the Peking Order than Bhajji and out of no where given an international call Chawla.

--Bairstow was beaten neck and crop by a Bhajji Doosra...and then bowled off a googly that didn't turn much...Morgan didn't read bhajji's arm ball.......and then ghosts of spin started playing in Eng's mind.....they froze like rabbits in headlight...and doing all the unusual things like reverse sweep walk away from stumps....nudges....paddles anything but straight bat down the ground hits.

--In india we all thouhgt 50 overs were too short for spin to have an impact ...but Eng surprised getting were walloped 5-0 to spin....and now 20 overs are proving about 10 overs too many for England to last against spin.

--what will they do in the 4 tests in India is the question on everyone's mind today even as we watch a T20 game....

--when do we see Dhoni put 4 close in fielders in a T20 game ??.

Will KP get the contrcat of his liking next week laughing
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:18 am

There is a line between being a staunch supporter of your side and in self denial.

Many are in self denial.......

reality is as follows......

Morgan. Bairstow, Broad, Swann, Bresnan......are all guys that England relies on to score runs and will feature in tests....that played yesterday.

Bopara, Cook, Trott , Bell played in India last winter.....in ODIs....and got walloped 5-0 to spin.
and Pakistan steam rolled them to 3-0 in UAE....and Herath / Randiv made them surrender in T1 in Lanka until "The legendary KP " won them T2.

England just freeeeezzzeeee.....when there are decent quality spinnners on even slow turners.......and like their captain's famous words yesterday....( we can play spin....at least in practise games ) many supporters are in self denial.

Cook, Trott, Prior and sometimes Bell will resist enough that they are not 60-9........and will get to 200 and occassionally touch 300.
But that won't be enouhg to win test matches in India
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:26 am

from CI...it seems from a cricketing defficiency.....their inability to play spin has turned into a "complex Freudian psycoanalytic, degenerative compulsive repititive hallucinatory disorder"

"It doesn't change our destiny a huge amount - we still hop on a bus to Kandy in the morning," Broad said. "It is not like tomorrow is going to be a different day. It is not as if we have to go home or anything."

But that underplayed the psychological effect that a defeat of such magnitude will have on a relatively untried England batting line-up that had grown in confidence during the warm-up matches but which collapsed spectacularly when faced by the first real test against significant opposition.

As Broad had mentioned destiny, he did bring to mind Freud's theory of repetition compulsion - a psychological phenomenon in which a person (or in this case the England cricket team) repeats a traumatic event, or its circumstances, over and over again.

Freud's theory says the patient does not remember anything about what he has forgotten or repressed, but just acts it out until the end of time, which is a depressing thought for when England next face spin bowling in Asia as well as an intriguing challenge for the team psychologist. The alternative, of course, would be to listen instead to Mushtaq Ahmed, the spin bowling coach, and start hitting the ball down the ground
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Shelsey93 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:37 am

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
How do you know?

Dhoni's pretty defensive and to be honest it would be suicidal to play less than the two seamers they have already.

As an England team I'd be quite happy if they thought spin was the only way they could get us out.

Not saying that the Test team will necessarily be fine - but yesterday isn't relevant if most of the batsmen in the Test side weren't playing.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:59 am

there is no way India will play more than 2 spinners.

because there will be likes of Sehwag and Tendulkar and Raina in the 11 who are pretty useful 3rd and 4th and 5th spinners.

and seamers in India....Yadav, Zaheer and Ishant get reverse.........and can produce spells of 3 to 4 wkt bursts every 3rd inning each.

Michale Vaughan's point should not be taken literally...but as a measure of what even English specialists are thinking of the Eng's menatl situation..........spin-phobia
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:17 am

JDizzle wrote:I didn't see the game today, so I can;t comment on how England batted today but anyone who thinks KP coming back would solve our issues against spin is utterly wrong. I don't know where this myth has come from that he is an unbelievable player of spin, I certainly would place Morgan and Bell above him as better players of it.

It's not so long ago he couldn't buy a run against a left arm spinner so one innings in SL doesn't change the fact that he himself has issues against spin himself. He was as bad as everyone else in the UAE remember.

No chance. KP has his issues against spin, for sure, but he is still our best player of it. No other player even uses their bloody feet!

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:17 am

Eng Dressign Room scenes reported by CI......a fair reflection of what we thouhgt might be going on Very Happy

Behind the scenes at England's India defeat post-mortem

Behind the scenes at England's India defeat post-mortem

Alan Tyers

September 24, 2012
On top of everything else, the defeat messed up Stuart Broad's coiffure ©️ Matches: England v India at Colombo (RPS)

Series/Tournaments: ICC World Twenty20

Teams: England

"Gather round, lads," said Stuart Broad. "Let's have a session of positives-taking and then see if we can't concentrate on our momentum."

Reluctantly, players put down their PlayStation controllers and stopped tweeting. Tim Bresnan picked listlessly at a Heinz All-Day Breakfast in a Can, one of 144 that he had brought over from home. The food in these subcontinental countries could be as dodgy as the spinners. The chef in the hotel hadn't even heard of Branston Pickle when he'd asked for some on his king prawn curry yesterday. Bresnan wondered if the bloke was even a real chef at all.

"So where did we go wrong?" asked Broad. "Why did our plan of blocking the first five and then closing our eyes and swinging hard at the sixth one fail to execute despite our focusing and preparationing?"

"It's Kevin Pietersen's fault," said Graeme Swann. There was a murmur of agreement.

"It so totally is," said Steve Finn. "Apparently Kevin's cousin is seeing this girl who knows a boy who was talking to this girl in Nando's, and she like said, 'Oh my God, Kevin thinks that we are all really bad at playing spin', and apparently Kevin said that Morgs was, like, a really massive slag, and he probably, like, told Harbhajan how to bowl us out by talking to him on Facebook."

"I am totally going to defriend him on Facebook," said Bresnan.

"Seriously, like me too?" said Broad. "Like, to show leadership?"

"And he totally said that Samit was fat," said Finn.

Samit Patel waved a chicken leg around angrily.

"As official team banterologist I can definitely say that Kevin's bants went beyond the acceptable level of bants on recent occasions," said Swann. "We're better off without him in all three key departments of top-level cricket: Twitter, team spirit and banter."

"The important thing, though, is that now we are all united as one and the spirit in the dressing room among the lads couldn't be better," said Broad.

"Although we do keep losing all the cricket matches," said Patel.

Broad shook his head sadly. Sometimes he wondered if Samit really got the whole team-spirit thing at all. Perhaps it was time for some tactical tweeting, which he would obviously have nothing to do with whatsoever.


PS *page 2 of CI is humor
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:22 am

Shelsey93 wrote:
shankythebiggestengfan wrote:
How do you know?

Dhoni's pretty defensive and to be honest it would be suicidal to play less than the two seamers they have already.

As an England team I'd be quite happy if they thought spin was the only way they could get us out.

Not saying that the Test team will necessarily be fine - but yesterday isn't relevant if most of the batsmen in the Test side weren't playing.

If India do play 3 spinners, its pretty difficult to see England managing 300+ on most occasions.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:25 am

KP_fan wrote:There is a line between being a staunch supporter of your side and in self denial.

Many are in self denial.......

reality is as follows......

Morgan. Bairstow, Broad, Swann, Bresnan......are all guys that England relies on to score runs and will feature in tests....that played yesterday.

Bopara, Cook, Trott , Bell played in India last winter.....in ODIs....and got walloped 5-0 to spin.
and Pakistan steam rolled them to 3-0 in UAE....and Herath / Randiv made them surrender in T1 in Lanka until "The legendary KP " won them T2.

England just freeeeezzzeeee.....when there are decent quality spinnners on even slow turners.......and like their captain's famous words yesterday....( we can play spin....at least in practise games ) many supporters are in self denial.

Cook, Trott, Prior and sometimes Bell will resist enough that they are not 60-9........and will get to 200 and occassionally touch 300.
But that won't be enouhg to win test matches in India
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:26 am

KPF, I know you're attributing the sources you're quoting, but can you please also paste in a link where possible. Just to keep the copywrite police happy Smile


As far as Cricinfo's tinned food joke goes, it's been reported that the bottled water being supplied to match venues is being invetigated after players from South Africa, New Zealand and Australia all came down with gastro bugs: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/7720622/Gastro-outbreak-at-T20-linked-to-bottled-water
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Shelsey93 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:31 am

Ireland too. Journos and TV production staff also suffering.


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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by msp83 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:55 am

Many here get irritated when the Pietersen question comes up every now and then, but perhaps they should take a look around almost every article on England's performance, including Agnew on BBC mentions Pietersen.
Having left their best batsman, one of the very best in the format out, it can't be expected that noone will be asking the Pietersen question.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:05 am

^ as if KP is not discussed here....he will disappear....and the happy family will live hapily ever after
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by JDizzle on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:
JDizzle wrote:I didn't see the game today, so I can't comment on how England batted today but anyone who thinks KP coming back would solve our issues against spin is utterly wrong. I don't know where this myth has come from that he is an unbelievable player of spin, I certainly would place Morgan and Bell above him as better players of it.

It's not so long ago he couldn't buy a run against a left arm spinner so one innings in SL doesn't change the fact that he himself has issues against spin himself. He was as bad as everyone else in the UAE remember.

No chance. KP has his issues against spin, for sure, but he is still our best player of it. No other player even uses their bloody feet!

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but I wish people would stop making out like we would have won yesterday if he had played! We got pumped 3-0 in the UAE with him, and he was as bad as anyone there. Then Trott got a century in T1 in SL, but because we lost is seems to get forgotten about and is portrayed as though KP is the only one who could hold a bat and everyone else just padded up and got out as soon as the spin came on. He has many issues against spin as well.

I just hate the argument "Oh, we lost yesterday but if KP was there...". Nothing would have changed. He wouldn't have scored 110, he wouldn't have bowled better at the death and we wouldn't have solved our fielding woes.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:51 pm

Morgan good player of spin? In England, yes. But in the SC? Was abysmal in the UAE and I have recently found out that he averages 14 in 18 IPL matches.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:52 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:KPF, I know you're attributing the sources you're quoting, but can you please also paste in a link where possible. Just to keep the copywrite police happy Smile


As far as Cricinfo's tinned food joke goes, it's been reported that the bottled water being supplied to match venues is being invetigated after players from South Africa, New Zealand and Australia all came down with gastro bugs: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/7720622/Gastro-outbreak-at-T20-linked-to-bottled-water

OK...I will bear that in mind.
regards
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Fists of Fury on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:52 pm

He might have scored 110...

You're right though, him being there does not conclude in an automatic win. What it does, though, is give us a) heck of a more of a chance and b) some threat. The way we let spinners bowl at us is embarrassing and weak. He would happily give the likes of Harby and Chawla some tap.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:54 pm

JDizzle wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:
JDizzle wrote:I didn't see the game today, so I can't comment on how England batted today but anyone who thinks KP coming back would solve our issues against spin is utterly wrong. I don't know where this myth has come from that he is an unbelievable player of spin, I certainly would place Morgan and Bell above him as better players of it.

It's not so long ago he couldn't buy a run against a left arm spinner so one innings in SL doesn't change the fact that he himself has issues against spin himself. He was as bad as everyone else in the UAE remember.

No chance. KP has his issues against spin, for sure, but he is still our best player of it. No other player even uses their bloody feet!

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but I wish people would stop making out like we would have won yesterday if he had played! We got pumped 3-0 in the UAE with him, and he was as bad as anyone there. Then Trott got a century in T1 in SL, but because we lost is seems to get forgotten about and is portrayed as though KP is the only one who could hold a bat and everyone else just padded up and got out as soon as the spin came on. He has many issues against spin as well.

I just hate the argument "Oh, we lost yesterday but if KP was there...". Nothing would have changed. He wouldn't have scored 110, he wouldn't have bowled better at the death and we wouldn't have solved our fielding woes.
Given that he was the Man of the Match when England beat India in a T20 last winter in India and the Man of the Series in the T20 series in UAE against Pakistan in early 2010(before the WC triumph) and also last winter, it tells you how important he has been to the T20 side in the subcontinent.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 12:58 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb5c1JW3Gg8

Look at this exhibition on how to play spinners....by KP smashing leg spinners, off spinners and SLA...all over the park....in a hundred scored at a 200% SR
Even a 70 odd whihc he is capbale of getting every 3rd inning...is enough to win a T20 game
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:00 pm

Its not about KP scoring 110 or whatever. Him being in the squad will invariably help the other players a they won't have to take those extra risks and he will put pressure on the spinners. Bhajji, for example, resorts to bowling darts when hit for runs. Now that would have helped others.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by msp83 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:27 pm

Kieswetter averages 23.72 in 23 T-20Is at a strike rate of 114.97 with 3 50s and a highest of 63. Hales averages 32.42 from 9 matches at a SR of 120. Wright 18.46 at an sr of 132. Morgan 34 at 130.
Kevin Pietersen in 36 matches have scored 1176 runs at an average of 37.93 and a strike rate of 141.51. Speaks for itself.
There is only Brendon McCullum in international cricket who scored more T-20I runs. There is daylight between England's highest scorer in T-20Is and the one in 2nd place.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 3:39 pm

KP_fan wrote:Eng Dressign Room scenes reported by CI......a fair reflection of what we thouhgt might be going on Very Happy

Behind the scenes at England's India defeat post-mortem

Behind the scenes at England's India defeat post-mortem

Alan Tyers

September 24, 2012
On top of everything else, the defeat messed up Stuart Broad's coiffure ©️ Matches: England v India at Colombo (RPS)

Series/Tournaments: ICC World Twenty20

Teams: England

"Gather round, lads," said Stuart Broad. "Let's have a session of positives-taking and then see if we can't concentrate on our momentum."

Reluctantly, players put down their PlayStation controllers and stopped tweeting. Tim Bresnan picked listlessly at a Heinz All-Day Breakfast in a Can, one of 144 that he had brought over from home. The food in these subcontinental countries could be as dodgy as the spinners. The chef in the hotel hadn't even heard of Branston Pickle when he'd asked for some on his king prawn curry yesterday. Bresnan wondered if the bloke was even a real chef at all.

"So where did we go wrong?" asked Broad. "Why did our plan of blocking the first five and then closing our eyes and swinging hard at the sixth one fail to execute despite our focusing and preparationing?"

"It's Kevin Pietersen's fault," said Graeme Swann. There was a murmur of agreement.

"It so totally is," said Steve Finn. "Apparently Kevin's cousin is seeing this girl who knows a boy who was talking to this girl in Nando's, and she like said, 'Oh my God, Kevin thinks that we are all really bad at playing spin', and apparently Kevin said that Morgs was, like, a really massive slag, and he probably, like, told Harbhajan how to bowl us out by talking to him on Facebook."

"I am totally going to defriend him on Facebook," said Bresnan.

"Seriously, like me too?" said Broad. "Like, to show leadership?"

"And he totally said that Samit was fat," said Finn.

Samit Patel waved a chicken leg around angrily.

"As official team banterologist I can definitely say that Kevin's bants went beyond the acceptable level of bants on recent occasions," said Swann. "We're better off without him in all three key departments of top-level cricket: Twitter, team spirit and banter."

"The important thing, though, is that now we are all united as one and the spirit in the dressing room among the lads couldn't be better," said Broad.

"Although we do keep losing all the cricket matches," said Patel.

Broad shook his head sadly. Sometimes he wondered if Samit really got the whole team-spirit thing at all. Perhaps it was time for some tactical tweeting, which he would obviously have nothing to do with whatsoever.


PS *page 2 of CI is humor

Ha ha, that's superb.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 3:47 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Must say though I enjoyed every bit of the hammering dished out to England yesterday. Serves them right!

I too found the performance hilarious in it's ineptitude against the non spinning spinners!

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 4:37 pm

It's always good to see people's true colours eh?

There is a myth being gaining ground that England reached number 1 (in all formats) purely on the back of KP's performances, and that all of a sudden since he's not been picked/retired they've become rubbish. That he's England's best batsman or even best player "by a mile". This is nonsense.

Pietersen wasn't the sole reason for England's rise up the rankings, he wasn't even the main reason.

He is probably England's best batsman, but not by such a long way - Bell and Cook (and Trott, although he's out of form at the moment) are also very fine players. IMO Anderson and Prior are better players in their positions than Pietersen. Swann was for a while, but has been patchy recently.

England's rise can be traced back to the 2009 ashes which they won (somewhat fortunately). Then there was the draw in South Africa, the home win against Pakistan, the away ashes win, the destruction of India. I ignore performances against Bangladesh... During this period, crucial performances came not only (or even mainly) from Pietersen, but also crucially from finding stability at the top of the order through Trott and Cook, the resurgence of Ian Bell as a test cricketer, and above all a quality bowling attack with no weak link.

In the 2009 ashes KP did little; ditto in South Africa (England's win was on the back of excellent bowling from Swann and Broad in particular, and centuries for Cook and Bell). In fact some people thought he should be dropped which was as ridiculous then as suggestions that putting him back in the side now will solve all the problems.

I also think England's win in Australia owed more to the bowlers (Anderson in particular being superb) and solidity up front than Pietersen's double century. In fact, the reason it was still 0-0 going into the 2nd test was thanks to the efforts of the top order, not Pietersen, and England already had a good start in Adelaide when he came in. The two wins in the final tests similarly.

Pietersen's best contribution IMO was that innings at Lords against India. That was a brilliant knock, and set up the summer. But again, things would have been very different without contributions from Broad in particular in the first two tests - remember India had their moments, and a wonderful knock by Ian Bell.

JD has already pointed out that England's slide begun with Pietersen very much in the team. They were also 1-0 down against South Africa with him in the team. He played all the matches against the West Indies, when England were less than convincing. And he was part of the team which collapsed appalingly to the very average Herath in Sri Lanka.

The knock in the 2nd test in Sri Lanka was special. I commented on the time that very very few players in the world could have batted as Pietersen did that day. On a dead pitch where no one else could score at a SR of above 40 he scored at nearly a run a ball. But people do forget that Swann took a bag of wickets, the bowlers dismissed Sri Lanka in the first innings on a pitch offering virtually nothing, and Strauss, Cook and Trott had already laid the foundation when Pietersen came in. I believe England would have won the game without Pietersen, although it would have been a grind, and quite a different flavour.

But that knock does emphasise what Pietersen brought to the team: the ability to take the game away from the opposition. No other player (Morgan has the ability, but hasn't done it yet in tests at least) has shown they can do that in the same way.

However the fact remains that Pietersen's average at a shade under 50 is very good, but not in itself outstanding. What made Pietersen a special player was less his performances themselves but the manner they came in, and as such the effect they had on the game. So those putting KP on a pedestal right now are actually (subconsciously maybe) agreeing that numbers aren't everything, and cricket is as much a game of moods and swings as pure numbers. Just saying...

On the playing spin thing, I have to agree with Fists - Pietersen is England's best player of spin. Bell has this tendancy to only play half-forward and gets beaten on the outside edge a lot. He also doesn't seem to back himself when in the subcontinent: as has been pointed out he plays spin very well in England and Australia (and South Africa, where he murdered Harris). The jury is out on Morgan, although Shanky doesn't mention a lot of his IPL knocks have come opening. I can only remember a couple of innings down the order.

Having said that Pietersen has had his poor moments against spin, and has the tendancy to get his pad too far forward and accross at times (hence the LBWs). He is also a dodgy sweeper, he can play the shot very well, but can also overplay it, or play it to the wrong ball.

None of this to say Pietersen isn't a fine player. He clearly is. Before the recent things, I was a staunch supporter, pointing to his ability to change matches and his style of play, and defending him when people criticised him getting out playing an attacking shot. But England's rise to number 1 owed as much if not more to other factors, and their recent decline started well before he was dropped/retired. The attempt to rewrite history to say otherwise is unbecoming.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 4:51 pm

Whilst this well written piece makes an interesting read none of it changes the fact that whether Kevin is or isn't England's best/most important player he is by some margin the best player not currently being picked.

I've said previously I think Cook (maybe Trott as well) is a more efficient run getter and as such more important in terms of winning matches but it's the thrill and exhilaration of a KP innings that really separates him from the others and that to me is my reason for watching cricket. Not to see any particular team win but to be thrilled by someone doing something extraordinary.

That's why I'm so annoyed at the ECB because it's they that are, rightly or wrongly, denying me that pleasure.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 5:25 pm

Wouldn't disagree with much of that, except the use of the generic "ECB". Blame the selectors, captain and coach. Not the fault of the guys in suits running the ECB.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 6:41 pm

You're dead right Mike, ignorance of the role of the ECB on my part for which I apologise.

A bit of googling has improved my knowledge somewhat but left me with a question which google doesn't appear to be able to answer.

Who are the selectors? Obviously Geoff Miller is chairman and Flower has a great input and I guess the captain but I can't find out the names of the other culprits?

Do you know? Should I know? Is it public knowledge?

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by chrisss on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 6:57 pm

Hibbz wrote:You're dead right Mike, ignorance of the role of the ECB on my part for which I apologise.

A bit of googling has improved my knowledge somewhat but left me with a question which google doesn't appear to be able to answer.

Who are the selectors? Obviously Geoff Miller is chairman and Flower has a great input and I guess the captain but I can't find out the names of the other culprits?

Do you know? Should I know? Is it public knowledge?

Ashley Giles and James Whitaker are two of them.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:06 pm

Still? I found an article saying they were but it was from 2008.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:14 pm

The short answer Hibbz is I don't know.

Giles certainly is a selector because people have complained of it being a conflict of interest with his job as performance director at Warwickshire (I feel they have a point).

I have a vague memory that a few years ago some sort of review into the selection business was done, and one of the things that came out of it was that (some? all?) selectors should also go on tour with the team (which seemed sensible). I think it was at this time that chairman of selectors became a paid role by the ECB.

I think the captain and coach are allowed to give their views (Fletcher's work I believe) but don't have an official vote. The rumour is that Flower often gets his way (fair enough), but guys close to him insist he wouldn't overrule his captain.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Hibbz on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 7:57 pm

Yeah I think I can remember some sort of shake up into how selection was done and the idea I think was to take some of the pressure off the captain but I think I can also remember some sort of hoo hah because the idea of the captain just being presented with a team not of his choice didn't work.

Interesting that people, not you Mike, would level criticism that Kevin doesn't care enough about England because he wasn't born in England but are probably willing to accept having someone who actually played against England have a major role in selection.

I'd suggest the captain wasn't in a good position to suggest replacements to current players given that they hardly feature in the county scene now a days.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:22 pm

Ha Ha...Scyld Berry wants to summon KP from the TV studios and put him back on Eng duty seeing their hopelessness against spin.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/9561600/Englands-spin-woes-hit-a-new-comical-low-after-latest-bout-of-knicker-twisting-against-India-in-World-Twenty20.html

Scyld Berry


It would not be surprising if this passage actually goes down in the annals as the most incompetent of all English displays against spin in Asia, thanks to the format.

Playing against spin is one Achilles heel, and starting against it is another, which doesn’t really leave England’s batsmen with a leg to stand on.



But this was one was the result not of attitude but technique. England are bright-eyed, bushy-tailed – and hopelessly naive against spin.

Not surprisingly, you may well think, when the England and Wales Cricket Board’s pitch inspectors hounded the only spinning pitch in county cricket out of existence – Northampton – and penalised Hampshire when they tried a one-off turner at the Rose, or Ageas, Bowl.

Assuming Kevin Pietersen is not summoned from his hotel at Mount Lavinia down the road from Colombo or the television studio, there is only one batsman in this England party who has ever performed against international spin in Asia: Samit Patel, who in nine 50-over innings in India has hit 245 runs off 265 balls.

An embarrassment for England, but not of riches.
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 8:23 pm

Hibbz wrote:
I'd suggest the captain wasn't in a good position to suggest replacements to current players given that they hardly feature in the county scene now a days.

Hussain said very much the same thing in his autobiography. Although I would suggest someone who was thought of to have a good enough analytical mind to captain his country wouldn't need to see much of a player to make up his mind as to whether he could make an international cricketer (emphasis on the could - no one of course knows for certain before you give them a go).

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by msp83 on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 9:09 pm

That, Mike, is a decent analysis.
But then to suggest that a team reaching consistent high points is the result of collective contributions is as obvious as saying one man alone cannot do that.
Since his debut in the 2005 ashes Pietersen has been more consistent than any other England batsman. He had his really prolonged rough patch in ODIs, but he remained consistent enough in test matches. Even when he failed to produce the big hundreds or struggled against SA and Pakistan he came back better.
Ian Bell is someone who made his debut a touch earlier than Pietersen did, but it took him years to really find his feet in international cricket, and even now hasn't shown enough consistency or adaptability to be a first choice player in all formats. Cook has been consistent enough in test matches and adapted his ODI game well, all be it rather recently, but even he's not a first choice player in T-20Is.
Prior is not good enough for international limited over cricket, and Anderson isn't a first choice selection in T-20Is.
My point is that Pietersen's contrivution and impact should be assessed from the time he made his debut across formats and not from a mid point. You might have been trying to suggest England's rise is not just about Pietersen a point I agree, but then England used to be a top side till the summer of 2006 and even after they performed alright in most of the series they played. Kevin Pietersen played a greater role than any other England batsman did in that. Otherwise the point to be remembered is that when Strauss took over, he was not in a Hussain kind of situation. KP made real major contributions with the bat when England was struggling so that the struggle did not become a total disaster. He played important knocks after that to see the climb back. But unlike in the previous face many others stepped up and even outperformed Pietersen at times and like they did between 2003 and 2005, England again put together a fine bowling unit.
Now in T-20I cricket, Pietersen is among the world's very very best, and he has made more consistent contribution to England in that format than any other batter has managed.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:30 pm

To be honest I think England performed very averagely as a side between 2005 and 2008, a home draw against a very mediocre Sri Lanka (when Pietersen smashed Murali all over the place) being a particular lowpoint for me.

The reason for this was partly complacency, partly internal struggles and partly a lot of things going wrong at the same time. Thus S. Jones was never fit again, Flintoff's batting became that of a number 8 rather than a number 6, G. Jones improved on his keeping but lost his batting, Trescothick had his well documented problems, Vaughan was rarely available and England never replaced him, Harmison seemingly irretrievably lost his direction, etc... Fletcher was convinced that you had to be fast to be successful so below par replacements (Plunkett, Mahmood) were persisted with.

If you had said during that time that Pietersen was comfortably England's best batsman or even player I would have agreed immediately.

I started from 2009 because IMO that's when England started being good, rather than average, again.

The point I was making which may have been self-evident, but needed making in light of people's apparently short memory. England became a very good side (again) on the back of a lot of performances, not just Pietersen. And England's recent slide started with him in the team.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 10:34 pm

Good summary, Mike....

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:06 pm

I am amazed at the volumes and length of verbosity and wordsmithy people would go to...to vainly justify "KP doesn't matter"...

Instead of simply stating....." We miss him terribly"
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mike Selig on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm

KP_fan wrote:I am amazed at the volumes and length of verbosity and wordsmithy people would go to...to vainly justify "KP doesn't matter"...

Instead of simply stating....." We miss him terribly"

Oh go forth and procreate.

I'm distinctly unamazed that you are obviously incapable of reading or of understanding anything which isn't written as a short collection of words of two or fewer syllables, as if you were you would have clearly seen that I never said what you claimed I said.

You are either thick or just a sad little person. Whatever, I'm not going to bother anymore.

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 11:23 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I am amazed at the volumes and length of verbosity and wordsmithy people would go to...to vainly justify "KP doesn't matter"...

Instead of simply stating....." We miss him terribly"

Oh go forth and procreate.

I'm distinctly unamazed that you are obviously incapable of reading or of understanding anything which isn't written as a short collection of words of two or fewer syllables, as if you were you would have clearly seen that I never said what you claimed I said.

You are either thick or just a sad little person. Whatever, I'm not going to bother anymore.

LOL...there wasn't anything cricketing about your comment.

It's what is referred to as ad hominem argument.....not the first time......neverthless worth pointing for the records.
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 5:03 pm

after the terrible defeat in a dead game against India...captain Broad reveals his strategy for WI...clever I must say Wink

Stuart Broad says his bowlers must be "aggressive" towards Chris Gayle when England meet West Indies in the World Twenty20 Super Eights in Pallekele on Thursday.
Broad believes the key to victory is dismissing West Indies batsman Gayle, 33, before he can cause any damage.
"As bowlers you have to try and get him out in the first couple of overs," said the England captain.
"We know he's dangerous but we've got a very aggressive bowling unit as well."
"Chris Gayle's an experienced Twenty20 cricketer," added Broad. "He knows his game, he waits for a few overs and then goes for it


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/19718647

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by KP_fan on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 8:30 pm


CI reports WI might throw 4 spinners at England....Narine, Badree( the leggie) and Samuels+ Gayle

http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-world-twenty20-2012/content/current/story/584086.html


Broad continues to deny any problems


England's T20I captain, Stuart Broad, is doing his best to shrug it off. "We are ready for that," he said. "It is not as if we have found out yesterday that people are going to bowl spin at us. Coming to Sri Lanka, we sort of knew that because those are the conditions we will face. It is important as individuals we try to counteract it."

Broad refuses to accept that England have technical issues against spin bowling. Even if he harbours doubts, it is far too late to do much about it now. The only option is to try to restore self-belief and trust that England somehow brazen it through.


"The challenge is all mental," he claimed. "It is all about getting yourself back into a positive frame of mind and reminding the guys in the team that they are good players. They have performed well to get into this England team and we have match-winners in this side.



"We just talked about our strengths. Learn from the mistakes you make but don't dwell on them. We have players who have played spin well. We have talked about how we've done that."


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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Duty281 on Sat 09 Aug 2014, 7:51 pm

Ghosts of spin are currently haunting India now, two years on!

An ordinary, part-time off spinner, not even on a raging turner at any point, has taken nineteen wickets at an average of 22 against India.

Most amusing!

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Sat 09 Aug 2014, 8:44 pm

Ironic!

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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 09 Aug 2014, 10:08 pm

Duty281 wrote:Ghosts of spin are currently haunting India now, two years on!

An ordinary, part-time off spinner, not even on a raging turner at any point, has taken nineteen wickets at an average of 22 against India.

Most amusing!
Don't you be slandering Moeen by calling him ordinary duty!!
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Re: Ghosts of spin come back to haunt England

Post by Mat on Sat 09 Aug 2014, 10:40 pm

This is excellent, truly excellent.

But come on now Duty, less of the "Part-time" and "Ordinary" please! Moeen is the man!

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