John Terry quits England.

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Post by GSC on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:41 pm

"I feel The FA, have made my position with the national team untenable."

Your personal behaviour might have contributed John
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Post by Duty281 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:53 pm

Didn't see that coming. He's had a great international career and has been proud to wear the shirt. clap

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Post by Ent on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:01 pm

Childish really, other players have been on the end of far worse from the fa and continued playing.

This is like when shearer kicked Lennon in the head and threatened to retire fro England if the fa banned him.

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Post by John Cregan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:03 pm

Always thought he was a fighter.............

What has his England career got to do with the FA and their stupid pursuit of these charges......................surely the fact that he started the campaign meant he intended to finish it...............

Odd.................

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Post by Atila on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:13 pm

Not that bothered to be honest, I know he has his fans but I was never one of them. It's hard to me to understand why Capello quit his job over JT.


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Post by John Cregan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:16 pm

Atila wrote:Not that bothered to be honest, I know he has his fans but I was never one of them. It's hard to me to understand why Capello quit his job over JT.


Capello quit his job because the FA interfeered in it..................

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Post by GSC on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:18 pm

Capello quite his job because he wanted to be paid without working
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Post by Crimey on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:20 pm

The cynic in me says this is a ploy by Terry. He/his agent have sensed a turn in the tide, with more people criticising the FA rather than Terry. The court has found him not-guilty, Capello resigned from his position, Hodgson has made it clear Terry is a major part of his plans and the Ferdinand brothers haven't really covered themselves in glory.

I believe this retirement is a (possibly misguided) attempt to push the FA into backing down from their position.

I'm not sure whether it'll work, while a lot have supported Terry in the situation because of the FA's actions, Terry is notoriously disliked and the public opinion appears to be firmly against Terry in most things he does, to the point that many still believe (maybe right, maybe wrong) that he should be a convicted racist.

It will be interesting to see this play out over the next few weeks and see if Terry's position does change.

As for footballing matters, I think this can only be a good thing for England who won't have to force Terry out as he clings desperately to being in the England squad and Hodgson can use the more talented and deserving centre backs such as Jagielka.

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Post by Atila on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:26 pm

John Cregan wrote:
Atila wrote:Not that bothered to be honest, I know he has his fans but I was never one of them. It's hard to me to understand why Capello quit his job over JT.


Capello quit his job because the FA interfeered in it..................
Capello should have taken the captaincy from Terry himself, before the FA stepped in.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:59 pm

I'm not quite sure where this has come from TBH, though I could offer some possible explanations:

- Terry's fed up with the FA, as he suggests. Doesn't think this is a fair trial (it probably won't be), and finds it unnecessary after he was already cleared by a court of law. Basically the reasons he's given. I'd find this odd because for all his criticisms Terry has always been passionate about England and has led (or virtually led) them to the best of his ability for many years now.

- Terry's been advised that he would likely lose the FA case, and is jumping before he is pushed.

- what Crimey says, he's trying to get the FA to back off.

The chances are the FA will find him guilty "on the balance of probabilities" (this wonderfully obscure statement means they can use the video evidence and it's on Terry to show it's taken out of context, no easy task). Terry fans will see this as it being the FA's way of saving face after basically forcing Capello to resign over the issue (disgracefully, IMO). Terry haters will take it to mean he's guilty, and was only cleared by the court because of insufficient evidence. The truth will probably never be known conclusively either way.

I think Terry deserves praise for the way he's always given his all to his country, and has led from the front on the pitch throughout a fine career clap

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Post by Guest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Fantastic news.

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Post by John Cregan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:10 pm

Another thread on this.........................

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Post by John Cregan on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:11 pm

Atila wrote:
John Cregan wrote:
Atila wrote:Not that bothered to be honest, I know he has his fans but I was never one of them. It's hard to me to understand why Capello quit his job over JT.


Capello quit his job because the FA interfeered in it..................
Capello should have taken the captaincy from Terry himself, before the FA stepped in.

Why??

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Post by Atila on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:35 pm

John Cregan wrote:
Atila wrote:
John Cregan wrote:
Atila wrote:Not that bothered to be honest, I know he has his fans but I was never one of them. It's hard to me to understand why Capello quit his job over JT.


Capello quit his job because the FA interfeered in it..................
Capello should have taken the captaincy from Terry himself, before the FA stepped in.

Why??
Why not? Terry could still have played for England, he didn't have to be captain. I thought that captains had to have the respect of everybody in the squad? I doubt that Terry had everyones respect and the FA didn't think it was a good idea to have him as captain either.

Capello should have seen it coming, I did.

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Post by Guest on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:38 pm

Didn't realise there was one John. A mod might as well scrap this one then.

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Post by Fernando on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:51 pm

ive merged it instead John Terry quits England.  3559488474

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Post by Ent on Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:37 pm

To lighten the mood:

Terry gives his reason for giving up the England armband.


It was black.


Very Happy

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Post by Mehrts is god on Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:27 am

To be fair,who really gives a f??? Good ridance to bad apples just like Lampard. All we need now is Ashley Cole to be given the arse and England might start to win thingsJohn Terry quits England.  291114

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Post by Born Slippy on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:54 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'm not quite sure where this has come from TBH, though I could offer some possible explanations:

- Terry's fed up with the FA, as he suggests. Doesn't think this is a fair trial (it probably won't be), and finds it unnecessary after he was already cleared by a court of law. Basically the reasons he's given. I'd find this odd because for all his criticisms Terry has always been passionate about England and has led (or virtually led) them to the best of his ability for many years now.

- Terry's been advised that he would likely lose the FA case, and is jumping before he is pushed.

- what Crimey says, he's trying to get the FA to back off.

The chances are the FA will find him guilty "on the balance of probabilities" (this wonderfully obscure statement means they can use the video evidence and it's on Terry to show it's taken out of context, no easy task). Terry fans will see this as it being the FA's way of saving face after basically forcing Capello to resign over the issue (disgracefully, IMO). Terry haters will take it to mean he's guilty, and was only cleared by the court because of insufficient evidence. The truth will probably never be known conclusively either way.

I think Terry deserves praise for the way he's always given his all to his country, and has led from the front on the pitch throughout a fine career clap

The criminal judgment heavily criticised Terry and indicated that it was only because the case had to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he was found not guilty. Given the tone of the judgment the FA had no real option but to bring the case. I think it is very likely to be the second reason you list. A shame it has come to this as he has always served England well but he only really has himself to blame.

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:40 am

Born Slippy wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'm not quite sure where this has come from TBH, though I could offer some possible explanations:

- Terry's fed up with the FA, as he suggests. Doesn't think this is a fair trial (it probably won't be), and finds it unnecessary after he was already cleared by a court of law. Basically the reasons he's given. I'd find this odd because for all his criticisms Terry has always been passionate about England and has led (or virtually led) them to the best of his ability for many years now.

- Terry's been advised that he would likely lose the FA case, and is jumping before he is pushed.

- what Crimey says, he's trying to get the FA to back off.

The chances are the FA will find him guilty "on the balance of probabilities" (this wonderfully obscure statement means they can use the video evidence and it's on Terry to show it's taken out of context, no easy task). Terry fans will see this as it being the FA's way of saving face after basically forcing Capello to resign over the issue (disgracefully, IMO). Terry haters will take it to mean he's guilty, and was only cleared by the court because of insufficient evidence. The truth will probably never be known conclusively either way.

I think Terry deserves praise for the way he's always given his all to his country, and has led from the front on the pitch throughout a fine career clap

The criminal judgment heavily criticised Terry and indicated that it was only because the case had to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he was found not guilty. Given the tone of the judgment the FA had no real option but to bring the case. I think it is very likely to be the second reason you list. A shame it has come to this as he has always served England well but he only really has himself to blame.

I think you'll find the court actually stated there was no conclusive evidence to prove that Terry was a racist and that there was no way to prove in what context the alleged comment was made, that's why he was found not guilty. If they believed him to be a racist then he would've been convicted.

The FA charge was a stupid move, especially as they waited almost a year to see whether he was convicted before charging him. If they were going to do it anyway they should've just done it. I don't see how it would've interfered with the trial given they have a completely different view on what's guilty.

Shame though, regardless of his personal habits JT's been a fantastic leader for England.

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Post by Born Slippy on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:54 am

You are correct that the Court found him not guilty because there was not the conclusive evidence needed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

However, the judge also stated that he considered Terry's account unlikely; that the prosecution had built a strong case and that it was highly unlikely Ferdinand had uttered the relevant words first. Given that Terry's entire case revolved around Ferdinand having done so, he therefore only got let off because it was considered possible that he might have believed Ferdinand did so. To me, on a balance of probabilities test, the defence will fail.

The FA has no real option but to await the conclusion of the criminal trial. Any disciplinary panel in those circumstances would await the outcome, regardless of whether their test is different.

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:01 am

Of course the defence will fail on that basis. It's a foregone conclusion that they want to stitch him up, he'll get a lengthy ban and so will Ferdinand for bringing the game in to disrepute.

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:05 am

Right beer so you don't think being found guilty of a crime by your governing body would affect a criminal trial? This is the exact reason professional bodies and regulators do not give any judgement if a criminal trial is pending!

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:08 am

Ent wrote:Right beer so you don't think being found guilty of a crime by your governing body would affect a criminal trial? This is the exact reason professional bodies and regulators do not give any judgement if a criminal trial is pending!

Not when the FA's take into account 'probabilities'.

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Post by John Cregan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:16 am

Beer wrote:Of course the defence will fail on that basis. It's a foregone conclusion that they want to stitch him up, he'll get a lengthy ban and so will Ferdinand for bringing the game in to disrepute.

Anton Ferdinand hasn't been charged with anything...................agree that it is guaranteed that Terry is being stitched up. Obviously the British Justice System not good enough for FA standards..............


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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:20 am

I thought Ferdinand was charged as well.

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:22 am

Beer wrote:
Ent wrote:Right beer so you don't think being found guilty of a crime by your governing body would affect a criminal trial? This is the exact reason professional bodies and regulators do not give any judgement if a criminal trial is pending!

Not when the FA's take into account 'probabilities'.

Just a fundamental lack of understanding here, if anybody from anywalk of life turns up to a criminal trial having been found guilty by their professional regulator it will be an easy day out for the prosecutor.

The fa have done the right thing in waiting.


Last edited by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:25 am

Ent wrote:
Beer wrote:
Ent wrote:Right beer so you don't think being found guilty of a crime by your governing body would affect a criminal trial? This is the exact reason professional bodies and regulators do not give any judgement if a criminal trial is pending!

Not when the FA's take into account 'probabilities'.

Just a fundamental lack of understanding here, if anybody from anywalk of life turns up to a criminal child having been found guilty by their professional regulator it will be an easy day out for the prosecutor.

The fa have done the right thing in waiting.

The second word is 'off'. OK

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:30 am

Constructive.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:31 am

Ent and others

On a legal point, there are two levels of proof that apply in Court, depending on the type of case.

For a criminal case, the level is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Under this very high bar of proof, Terry was found 'not guilty'

However, for civil actions, the level is 'on the balance of probabilities', and this is the level taken also for sporting disciplinary hearings. This doesn't really mean that anything over a 50% likelihood sees JT banned (if there's not much to choose between the cases for and against, there is usually some sort of fudge - maybe an official reprimand and some waffle about 'future conduct'), but if one side presents a strong, though not overwhelming, case they will win.

Based on the comments made above, it looks like JT could still find himself in hot water, and receiving a ban similar to that given to Suarez last season.

As for retiring from England, in my opinion he's no longer one of our best 2 or 3 options at centre back anyway, so it's no great loss.

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:35 am

Very aware of that dummy, was discussing the timing of the fa's hearing, which is correct.

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:38 am

Ent wrote:Constructive.

I thought it was, much like your patronising opinion.

It's got nothing to do with a fundamental lack of understanding.

Is the FA a recognised legal body? No.

Bottom line, they have always had every intention of charging Terry regardless of what the outcome of his court. The fact that they take into account 'probabilities' should nullify any influence over a court case and the Judge presiding over the Terry case could make it clear that any FA judgement should NOT be taken into account when deciding whether Terry was guilty or not.


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Post by Guest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:43 am

He was a fantastic servant for England. Can't question the guy's commitment on the field. Was second to none. A natural leader in the dressing room.

Off the pitch however his behaviours and morals have a lot to be desired. Probably the right time for him to step down. At 31 not getting any younger and has lost a few yards of pace, though others might argue he never had any.

It's a shame it has ended under the circumstances off the field.

I hope he enjoys the rest of his club career.

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:02 am

Beer that is just your opinion and not fact - you are not showing any understanding of this process.

The facts are the findings of governing/regulatory bodies investigations do effect criminal trials - which is why they are either delayed or non judgemental.

Your opinion doesn't make sense; if te fa wanted to stitch terry up they would have had their hearing, found him guilty, banned him, caused him to miss euro 2012 and sent him to a criminal trial with guilt from his regulatig body and public opinion against him.

Regardless of your opinion on appropriateness or the fa's process undoubtably the timing is correct.

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Post by Guest on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:04 am

good centre back, gave his all when playing for england, but his football is always overshadowed by all the contervusy he gets invovled in...

the right time to retire let the likes of cahill, jagielka, lescoot etc have their go.

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Post by Beer on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:06 am

Ent wrote:Beer that is just your opinion and not fact - you are not showing any understanding of this process.

The facts are the findings of governing/regulatory bodies investigations do effect criminal trials - which is why they are either delayed or non judgemental.

Your opinion doesn't make sense; if te fa wanted to stitch terry up they would have had their hearing, found him guilty, banned him, caused him to miss euro 2012 and sent him to a criminal trial with guilt from his regulatig body and public opinion against him.

Regardless of your opinion on appropriateness or the fa's process undoubtably the timing is correct.

Cause that would never happen in a court of law, no? A judge would never inform a jury to ignore any previous judgments from any body and ignore any mass hysteria surrounding a trial?

Don't patronise me you uppity little tosspiece. I understand fully, and completely disagree with it. This is just another case of you trying to ram your opinion down people's throats, like yesterday with the red card.

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Post by Ent on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:45 pm

No need to get personal, maybe try and debate the points?

The evidence compiled and resulting conclusions from regulatory/governing body are used in criminal trial - which is why they are either non judgemental or delayed until the criminal investigation is over. This is fact.

I would also like to know why you feel the fa have waited if they are so intent to stitch him up, when it would have had more severe repercussions if done earlier?

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:52 pm

Agree with Ent, the timing is right and even though these processes shouldnt have any influence criminal procedings, they undoubtadly would.

I think Terry is trying to make out he is the victim here. Ultimately his actions have landed him in this position.


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Post by owen10ozzy on Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:31 pm

Couldn't agree more Lumbering. His belief that the FA has made it 'untenable' to continue shows just how arrogant he is. Given the fact he has probably had more support than anyone who has faced criminal charges.

Regardless of whether he was found guilty or not he headed into the EURO's not knowing what verdict would be delivered. Ok he lost his armband but given the FA's stance on racism they could hardly let him keep it. He was lucky to be on the plane (yes he had a good tournament buts neither here nor their)....no other England manager has ever been given the scope to take a player facing criminal charges...if that isn't a show of support im not sure what is.

He has been a fantastic stalwart on the pitch for England...always passionate and loved playing for his country but his actions away both on and off the pitch will leave few feeling to sorry for him. There were plenty before him who have done far less in terms of behaviour and never turned out for the country again. In the grand scheme of things Terry has been lucky to play for the country the amount of times he has over the last 3-4 years.

Great defender but he represents everything that people perceive and believe modern footballers are.....ego massaged men who believe that because of there standing they are above the law.

If anyone is interested you can read my full no holds barred view on his retirement at my blog where I have just done an article.

http://aviewfrommyarmchair.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/terry-brings-down-curtain-on-england-career/


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Best news I've heard about the England set-up in a long long long time.

Should never have been taken to the Euro's, glad we never have to deal with his (self-created) mess again.

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Post by aja424 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:12 pm

This is good news for the future of the English national side.
We need to start building for Euro2016 and need to pick the team accordingly, if that means not making it to Brazil then so be it.

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