Avengers or Batman?

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Batman or Avengers Assemble?

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Post by Scott is Back on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 1:54 pm

Hi All,
Just a pretty basic Poll. What film did you prefer, Batman or Avengers Assemble?

Make your choice, state your reasoning.....Lets Debate!
boxing

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Post by jimbryant on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:12 pm

Has to be Dark Knight Rises for me. The ending of an near-perfect cinematic trilogy featuring my favourite literary character of all time. Seriously! Loved the treatment of Catwoman and Bane and thought it ended perfectly.

I'll go on to say that I adore Avengers as well (in fact, I'm in the middle of writing a retrospective piece on the first phase of Marvel on Film) but Batman edges it.

Ta,

Jim

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Post by Scott is Back on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 2:44 pm

Pretty much the same reasons as Jim, such a perfect end to a perfect trilogy.

Avengers was good, but i was slightly bored in the build up to the big battle at the end.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 9:50 am

BATMAN thumbsup

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:15 am

I think it is a slight difference in what we are comparing.

The Justice League v The Avengers a much better comparison.

The closest of comparison of the Batman trilogy to a marvel hero would be Iron Man which the trilogy ends next year.

The Avengers was a blockbuster. It had the cast and the storyline for once was solid. For an upcoming sequel to the Avengers for me would see the addition of Spiderman. The Avengers was great because they managed to pool in the same cast for the heroes which by any circumstances is quite the coup.

The Dark Knight Rises was stunning. It kept in theme with the other installments. I think if anything the ending was perfect. It ensured the legacy went on, but also gave the viewer the power to interpret their own ending. When it was coming up for release and the trailers it just had me thinking how is this going to end? How can produce an ending which makes you feel you have rode the journey and feel sense of completion with the trilogy.

Marvel have finally tapped into the fact that a solid storyline is more effective with viewers than effects and the powers of their characters. Without doubt this is in relation to what Nolan has achieved with the Batman series. Take Iron Man. Favreau has worked the storyline superbly and like Nolan was able to make the franchise survive despite a cast change Holmes/Gyllenhaal and Howard/Cheadle. The challenge that Favreau faces is completing a trilogy and also keeping in with the Avengers sequel.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:31 am

"but also gave the viewer the power to interpret their own ending"

wouldnt it have been better if we didnt know Bruce was alive. I liked the fact that robin got in the cave at the end though..

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:37 am

The ending was up for interpretation. The thing is you didn't know if he was alive or not. It is similar to Inception. It gave us the viewer the option to 'choose' if you would the ending. Did you believe Bruce was alive at the end?

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:43 am

he was alive because we saw him alive. There was no interpretation

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:50 am

Ermmmmm if you watched the film you will recall that Alfred had a 'vision' that Bruce was alive and well in Florence with a family and that he gave Bruce a nod when he went missing for 8 years in Batman Begins so there was interpretation.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:55 am

yes i have watched the film. Bruce wayne is alive. it wasnt a vision it was real!

did you not see the autopilot fix scene??

Its implied that it isnt fixed so everyone things he is dead- However he did fix it

seriously dude. The whole ending montage explains that he is alive..

I dont think I know anyone who hoinestly thinks he isnt alive, strange opinion mate..

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Post by Scott is Back on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:57 am

Personally i thought the ending was that Bruce was alive, he was there with Selina, which tied in with her saying they could run away and start a life. I didnt feel it was up for interpretation, but if you did, good for you. Matter of opinion i suppose.

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Post by SirJohnnyEnglish on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 10:59 am

With Mysti here there was no interpretation at the end. During the film Alfred mentioned he had a dream/hope when Bruce was missing to see Bruce happy in a restaurant in Florence with a wife/family.
At the end he meets Bruce, happy with Selena Kyle, in the same restaurant.

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:00 am

So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:09 am

Legend next time i watch the film. I am gonna think about your theory. I have done abit of research and there are a few out there that do think on your lines, 99% however dont, but as scott mentions nothing wrong with having that outlook..

The way I look at the film from the one viewing I had was that the whole ending montage explianed how he was alive quite conclusively. rather than putting a bit of doubt out there as to wether he was alive or not

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Post by Scott is Back on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:12 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

If your gonna think like that, is it reasonable to think a man can make it from an underground prison, back to a Gotham City that has no access to enter or leave? Can fly a "Bat" around the city without being noticed? Run the whole of Gotham Police Dept on a merry chase and never get caught?

Its a superhero/action film, it doesnt always make logical sense.

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:36 am

Scott is Back wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

If your gonna think like that, is it reasonable to think a man can make it from an underground prison, back to a Gotham City that has no access to enter or leave? Can fly a "Bat" around the city without being noticed? Run the whole of Gotham Police Dept on a merry chase and never get caught?

Its a superhero/action film, it doesnt always make logical sense.

1) The prison had no roof for a starter and a girl made it out. They managed to get down with the aid of harnesses and rope. Don't see how that is far-fetched.

2) The Bat was noticed by police after the chase.

3) In relation to the leading the police on a merry dance. He was in co-op with the Police Commisioner. Not a surprise that he can ellude capture. Infact if you have seen Death Wish, it would not be uncommon for police to use a form of pyschology to help enforce public conformity with the law.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:37 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

No offence LegendkillarV2, but if you think that that is over the top, you should take and step back and reevaluate all super hero movies. They are all far fetched!

I agree that he was alive at the end. The scene with the coordinate system fully backed that theory, but gave the illusion he was dead.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:39 am

Besdies, the bomb was on a timer and was already close to detonating. Who needs accurate coordinates...? Just set them for the middle of the ocean somewhere, and let it get as far as possible!!

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Post by Scott is Back on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:43 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:
Scott is Back wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

If your gonna think like that, is it reasonable to think a man can make it from an underground prison, back to a Gotham City that has no access to enter or leave? Can fly a "Bat" around the city without being noticed? Run the whole of Gotham Police Dept on a merry chase and never get caught?

Its a superhero/action film, it doesnt always make logical sense.

1) The prison had no roof for a starter and a girl made it out. They managed to get down with the aid of harnesses and rope. Don't see how that is far-fetched.

2) The Bat was noticed by police after the chase.

3) In relation to the leading the police on a merry dance. He was in co-op with the Police Commisioner. Not a surprise that he can ellude capture. Infact if you have seen Death Wish, it would not be uncommon for police to use a form of pyschology to help enforce public conformity with the law.


1) My point was more to do with getting from the prison to Gotham, not the climbing out, that was explained in the film.

2) Before the police chase it wasnt noticed, and he managed to park it down a dark alley with nobody noticing?

3) Is it a proviso to watch "Death Wish" to then understand this point?

None of these points are an issue to me, more that, if you over think these things, you will find many opportunities to think that this is stupid.

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:50 am

Scott is Back wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:
Scott is Back wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:So you think that someone who flew out to the ocean and we didn't see him eject out was alive after detonating a nuclear bomb and was able to set the co-ordinates without a flight tower or army personnel to advise the co-ordinates? Intriguing.

If your gonna think like that, is it reasonable to think a man can make it from an underground prison, back to a Gotham City that has no access to enter or leave? Can fly a "Bat" around the city without being noticed? Run the whole of Gotham Police Dept on a merry chase and never get caught?

Its a superhero/action film, it doesnt always make logical sense.

1) The prison had no roof for a starter and a girl made it out. They managed to get down with the aid of harnesses and rope. Don't see how that is far-fetched.

2) The Bat was noticed by police after the chase.

3) In relation to the leading the police on a merry dance. He was in co-op with the Police Commisioner. Not a surprise that he can ellude capture. Infact if you have seen Death Wish, it would not be uncommon for police to use a form of pyschology to help enforce public conformity with the law.


1) My point was more to do with getting from the prison to Gotham, not the climbing out, that was explained in the film.

2) Before the police chase it wasnt noticed, and he managed to park it down a dark alley with nobody noticing?

3) Is it a proviso to watch "Death Wish" to then understand this point?

None of these points are an issue to me, more that, if you over think these things, you will find many opportunities to think that this is stupid.

1) Geographically it was never confirmed what part of the world the prison was in. Again that is open to speculation.

2) Given the guy spends most his time fighting crime at night would suggest it was set up during the night. Not sure even the boldest person on earth would fly such a thing in the day to merely 'park' it in the alley.

3) The point of the Death Wish proviso is that in similar to Batman it is a vigilante. The police sussed out who it was and much rather expose the man and arrest him they let him be in a means to keep order as the fear factor was on the streets that criminals were being targeted.

The point is the ending is to be interpretted that he was either alive or dead. Alfred having a vision doesn't automatically mean it became real. Hence why I believe the ending was left for viewer interpretation.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:53 am

your the only one on here implying it was a vision.

A couple of points to suggest it wasnt a vision.

Selina was in the scence, and add to that she was wearing the pearls

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:54 am

mystiroakey wrote:your the only one on here implying it was a vision.

A couple of points to suggest it wasnt a vision.

Selina was in the scence, and add to that she was wearing the pearls

Alfred researched Selena after the burglary.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:54 am

mystiroakey wrote:your the only one on here implying it was a vision.

A couple of points to suggest it wasnt a vision.

Selina was in the scence, and add to that she was wearing the pearls


thumbsup

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 11:58 am

Also Alfred didn't reveal the restaurant to Bruce now did he. Rolling Eyes

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:06 pm

He may have done, he may not have, Bruce may have guessed. it may have been a fluke of the fairytale.

batman is a pretty straightforward premise. Adding this interpretation may well be nolans style, but it hasnt been part of the make up of this trilogy.
Anyway if we look at it like art i suppose we can apply anything we want to the film and still be right.. thumbsup

I do however agree with the others though about the realism of superhero films. There is no point judging one aspect of it and not looking into other unrealistic acts.

What about the start of the film- when bane takes down the plane with the scientist!! thats surely a 1/1000 shot!


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Post by Mike Selig on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:08 pm

Meh, for me it was fairly obvious that Bruce was still alive at the end, all the stuff with the autopilot beforehand.

Having said that he should have blown up in the blast, even if he ejected a bit before. But again, meh, the odd bit of surrealism in a film, even grounded in reality as Nolan's batman films are, doesn't really bother me.

In defence of LK, you could interpret the ending as a vision, combined with Blake fixing the bat signal, and Bruce having fixed the autopilot but not used it (I admit I can't see that, but maybe he really couldn't let go?). The whole point being Bruce wants his friends to believe he's still alive, paving the way for batman to live on as a symbol (through Blake).

On the empire forums there are quite a lot of people who think the ending is ambiguous, so it's not just LK.

For me, I would have preferred it if the film had stopped short of showing Bruce and Selina (seeing Alfred in the café and even having him nod at someone without seeing who they were say). And the autopilot thing felt a bit cumbersome.

Otherwise I agree entirely with LK that you are asking to compare two entirely different films. I would say Batman is undoubtedly the more ambitious, and on an objective scale is probably the more skilful movie. Whether you prefer the avengers, or think it is better in its own style is up to you.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:11 pm

"For me, I would have preferred it if the film had stopped short of showing Bruce and Selina (seeing Alfred in the café and even having him nod at someone without seeing who they were say). And the autopilot thing felt a bit cumbersome."

that was my original point. That would have left it very openended.

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Post by Scott is Back on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:15 pm

mystiroakey wrote:"For me, I would have preferred it if the film had stopped short of showing Bruce and Selina (seeing Alfred in the café and even having him nod at someone without seeing who they were say). And the autopilot thing felt a bit cumbersome."

that was my original point. That would have left it very openended.

I would partly agree, but i think seeing Bruce & Selina together, confirmed for me that he was alive.

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:15 pm

The opening scene. Well for that to happen would require military training. In terms of timing and execution it would require that. Bane was trained with the League of Shadows so physically he was up for such a task.

The factors in the ending make it so it is up for viewer interpretation. That is what I was applauding. It is quality film-making to be able to do that. He done it in Inception and done it again in TDKR.

You were left happy with the film as I was too.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:18 pm

inception was a total mind £$%^. however loved it. But i dont think anyone could say one way of the other for certain. So many possibilities

TDKR was pretty straightforward for me, but yes i agree loved it and was happy

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:24 pm

Look at the Inception. He saw his children's faces which he was unable to do in his 'dreams' but on the other hand his spinner kept on spinning which would point to him being in his 'dream' but either way you are given the freedom to interpret the ending. Either you can commit to ending he makes it back to his kids or he is stuck in a dream.

TDKR you have Alfred who had a vision. Bruce himself didn't know the restaurant name or when Alfred went or what time. Alfred in his 'vision' just had Bruce there with a family. The factors of the autopliot and Selena Kyle can commit the viewer into thinking he was alive or you can commit to theory it was just Alfred's vision.

That is quality film-making. We the viewer are given the choice and a lot of films can't do that.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:29 pm

I dont think many could commit to the ending of inception..Well i certainly cant. I go from one theory to the next every time i think about it.

The end in TDKR may have been a vision, but i dont think it was.

I will bring another nolan film into this discussion. The prestige. One of my all time favs..

The ending was completly explained.

Are people questioning the ending of TDKR because of inception. Because surely if we were only to go by the prestige which had the great twist but was explained, we can just apply TDKR to that, again another film with a twist that is explained

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:35 pm

TDKR is not explained. This is the whole thing. Inception you can commit to an ending. I committed to him being there with his children outside the dream. Because I chose it. TDKR I committed to him being dead. Again because I chose it. Take Memento. That was full of twists and the twist was the cycle would keep occuring because of his condition. That ending confirmed that he would live out the same cycle over and over.

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Post by President Trump on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:42 pm

The way I see it was Bruce Wayne lives at the end as for how would he know when Alfred would be there or what restaurant he was talking about, well for one Alfred probably took the same holidays off each year at the same time and 2 HE'S BATMAN!!!! I doubt it would be hard for him to track Alfred down and see where he is going to eat every morning, you really are over thinking a really simple ending to a really meh film

Back on topic I enjoyed the action packed, silly comic book style of Avengers

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:49 pm

You can commit all you want. But the whole point of open ending films(even though TDKR probally isnt) is that it makes no sense to commit, because the director hasnt either.

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 12:59 pm

picard

You the viewer yes you are given the choice!!

Jeez is it really that hard to grasp.

Whether the director has subscribed to the ending is irrelevent because all they want is for the viewer to enjoy it.

It is not groundbreaking. Other films have done this before. Dawn of the Dead, Jason v Freddy, The Grey. Maybe not in the Nolan mould, but they give you the viewer the choice even if they haven't decided to look beyond the film itself to convey their own interpretation.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:02 pm

you can fall you the trick all you want Legend- But must of us Intellegent peops that understand when a film is open ended or not dont. because we work on fact pal. Its not really my fault or anyone elses that we see the film how the director does. We can still enjoy these films though. We dont have to commit to rate the film!! we can just look at it as it is and understand there are certain outcomes

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:05 pm

Intelligent?

picard

Your pushing the boat out a bit there! You can't spell it!

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:08 pm

Good come back legend. Now go and have a cup of tea and relax

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:18 pm

However thanks for bringing up Momento. Gotta watch it later today now you mention it. Class film that i havent seen for donkies

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Post by Guest on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 1:26 pm

Indeed. See that has a set ending. That I will agree on and it is a class film.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 26 Sep 2012, 2:00 pm

I don't know how you can argue TDKR doesn't have an ending.....it clearly does, it's just left to the viewer's personal interpretation. Eitherway, it's one of two choices. Inception was even more so I think.

LegendKiller, I think there are a lot of people who agree with your arguement, but equally, there are a lot of people that believe Wayne lived.

I just think to suggest that he died because he hadn't obtained coordinates from military personnel or an aviation tower, is a bit myopic. Especially whe the whole film adopts that theatrical, melodramatic style common across the whole superhero genre.




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Post by The Best in the World on Thu 27 Sep 2012, 7:11 pm

Batman, hands down. Just think all 3 films are equally amazing, and the 3rd one just completes the jigsaw
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Post by GSC on Thu 27 Sep 2012, 7:57 pm

Avengers by quite a bit. I liked the batman trilogy, but never thought it was all that epic tbh. Avengers was just brilliant throughout.
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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 7:59 am

Gonna be honest and say that this batman trilogy redefined the word epic.. thumbsup

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Post by GSC on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 9:05 am

Gonna be honest and say no it didn't thumbsup
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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 9:08 am

Whats your Deffo of epic GSC..

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Post by GSC on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 9:25 am

Stands out throughout time. I like it, but it wasn't overly special for me
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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 9:27 am

Did you prefer other batrman films then.

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Avengers or Batman? Empty Re: Avengers or Batman?

Post by GSC on Fri 28 Sep 2012, 9:29 am

Tbh I'm not that big a fan of batman. More of a spiderman fan growing up (that cartoon was epic Whistle)
GSC
GSC

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Avengers or Batman? Empty Re: Avengers or Batman?

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