Nick Evans-Less Games or he Leaves?

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 1:29 pm

Looks like Nick Evans will only stay with Quins if we can guarantee him less game time. The Kiwi flyhalf played 28 matches for Quins last season and generally played for the full 80 unless injured. He is now looking at playing a lot less then that next season with which ever club he does agree a contract with.

What do people think? Personally I don't see this as a problem for Quins, we need to get used to not having him all the time anyway and we have three very good back ups to choose from in Clegg, Botica and Grimboldi. If we can protect Nev and rotate him often then he could potentially play for us for another two-three seasons. Much better then getting one more season of every single game out of him.

Article is here: http://www.kingstonguardian.co.uk/sport/9968826._/?

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 1:38 pm

If we could even keep him in a player/coach capacity that would be great as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by AlastairW on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:03 pm

Player/Coach would work. He's still got a good few years in him though, i'm not all over this whole 'throw them on the scrap heap once they've hit 30' attitude that has been knocking around for a few years now. Got the skills, got the place as far as i'm concerned.

I'd like to see Nev stay at Quins, but if he could pass on some of that form and some tricks to Clegg/Botica & Grimboldi that would be even better.


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Post by Portnoy's Complaint on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:04 pm

This is a sensible threat from Nick - on behalf of all professional rugby players. Given a decent following wind, a rugby career will last ten years and only a few will command salaries of £100k+ p.a.

A stronger global players' Union only could limit burn-out/injury to a sensible maximum of about 25-28 x80 minutes playing time (including internationals) per year.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:13 pm

I wonder if he is the first to go public but that others are saying it to the clubs.

It would be interesting to see what the top players get paid per min on the field.

When I saw 28 games I didn't think it was that much but 28 full games is different esp when you consider everything goes through him.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 2:17 pm

Exactly, especially when you think about the number of off the ball late/high hits fly halves take.

I think it's something that's been needed to be said and coming from some one as grounded as Evans hopefully it'll be listened to.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 08 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

Pay him what he wants - put the Mrs on the payroll - whatever it is that clubs do to get it under the salary cap.
Or make NEV the marquee signing!

On the flip side - Devils advocate here, do quins want a Marquee player that wont be available for all the games.

This may all depend on the number of games that NEV would want to reduce down to.

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Post by AlastairW on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 8:28 am

propdavid_london wrote: do quins want a Marquee player that wont be available for all the games.

For me that feeds into the wider issue of strenght in depth. As in we have none, and it was one the worries pre-season. I think that is being addressed at the moment, but we still overly rely on players like Nev - and when they have a shocker (only human, we all do it) we suffer. Academy is producing good players, we've got a few good signings looking to make waves, but they're still not up to the strenght of 1st team.

Love 'em or loathe 'em that is where Saracens have it bang on. Great strenght in depth, rotate players, and if one player is having a shocker, they can just replace him with an equally strong bench.


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 8:53 am

It is difficult to build true strength in depth. In many ways you can have a deep, but "ordinary" squad or an excellent 1st team squad. It is not just about money - though the French teams can afford better quality in depth. It is also about player ambitions - look at tigers. everyone on the board (other than Tiger fans) insist that ford has to leave the club - that would then put us in the position of having just one quality Stand Off.


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Post by yappysnap on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 11:03 am

The strength in depth is slowly building. But I think it's impossible for any club to build certain strength in depth at every position.

We can also now offer more then just money, it's been mentioned in interviews that youngsters want to come to us over other teams for the academy and facilities. And then from this they view us as a team that's far more likely to give them a chance to shine on the big stage.

That's exactly the reason that Charlie Walker left Tigers Academy, and why Lewis Grimbaldy just joined us as well.

So we're building that rep which will hopefully allow us to hold a bigger squad under a smaller budget. But we must keep winning things to keep the upward momentum.

As to Nev, yes we must keep him. Not only is he brilliant for the team but he does so much good work off the pitch. One or two more seasons would hopefully have us set.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 11:42 am

AlastairW wrote:
propdavid_london wrote: do quins want a Marquee player that wont be available for all the games.

For me that feeds into the wider issue of strenght in depth. As in we have none, and it was one the worries pre-season.

None? Really? A couple of years ago, maybe. But now? Last season, Quins started with their full First XV once in the entire AP season, in the final. In most positions we can point to strength in depth that ranges from "emerging" to "would be first XV in most other teams":

1 - Lambert (was never more than solid at TH but looking much more comfortable at LH)
2 - Brooker (assuming a full recovery), Buchanan (potential future international if he continues to develop. Closed out the final)
3 - Collier, Sinckler (both in the emerging category, but Sinckler in particular looks to be cut from the same cloth as Marler)
4/5 - Matthews (emerging, but big enough to play Kohn's role in the scrum, and athletic enough to share the workload with Robson in the air)
6 - Fa'asavalu (International. Guest taking the starting berth this season)
7 - Wallace (potential future international)
8 - Guest / Trayfoot (not seen much of him, but we were prepared to let a player of Chris York's ability go so the potential is almost certainly there)
9 - Karl Dickson (so we have an EPS and a Saxons SH)
10 - Problem position #1. Debate rages about Clegg (though I think he needs a decent run of game time before we can make a call), Botica seems promising
11 - Smith
12 - Another problem position. Casson has lots of potential but is coming back from injury, Botica has looked good in A games
13 - Hopper, with Charlie Walker also an option
14 - Stegmann
15 - Chisholm

The problem positions are 10 and 12. We've been a bit unlucky with injury at 12 over the years, and none of the contenders has been able to establish themselves as an alternative to JTH. Whoever is the backup 10 is always going to look bad in comparison to NEv, because he's the best 10 in the NH and quite possibly the second best in the world. His backup is going to be at best a good club player or an emerging international.

If it is a question of game time, then well done to NEv for forcing the issue. The only way that Clegg or Botica can step up to the mark is by playing more games. The transition is going to be painful at times, but we have to do it at some point and I'd rather it began properly while he's still around!



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Post by AlastairW on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 3:51 pm

Oh it's definatley improving Poor, don't get me wrong. But out of that list Fa'asavalu, Wallace & Dickson are only ones i think are truley up to the same standard as the first team as it stands.

Again, that's not too say that they won't be, they just aren't at the moment if i'm going to be brutally honest. We have better depth than last season, but its going to be at least one senson, maybe two before i think some of these guys will live up to the potential they are showing at the moment.

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Post by red_stag on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 3:53 pm

I think that Quins could pretty easily say to Evans that he won't play in more than 30 matches next year.

Do not play him in LV Cup.

You have 6-9 European Cup games.
You have 22-24 League Matches.

So tell him he will play in 30 of the 28-33 matches available.

Thats a good deal for both him and Quins.
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:01 pm

Pretty sure he did not play in the LV last year. I should think that he really wants to play no more than 25 matches.

Looking it up he played 19 regular season matches, 2 playoff and 6 HC matches. He was replaced 5 times in total. for both parties sakes they need to look at another stand off having more game time.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:12 pm

Definitey, I imagine he's thinking more around the 18-21 games mark that would be approx half of the prem matches and then all of the HC group games at least.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:16 pm

AlastairW wrote:Oh it's definatley improving Poor, don't get me wrong. But out of that list Fa'asavalu, Wallace & Dickson are only ones i think are truley up to the same standard as the first team as it stands.

Again, that's not too say that they won't be, they just aren't at the moment if i'm going to be brutally honest. We have better depth than last season, but its going to be at least one senson, maybe two before i think some of these guys will live up to the potential they are showing at the moment.

I could quibble over Brooker and many would disagree with you about Hopper, but that would be missing the point. Or maybe we are quibbling about degrees here. I agree - and have said several times on other threads and boards - that Quins are a season or two away from their full potential as the second generation of academy players begins to mature and the third gen emerge.

My point is that, realistically, no club side has 2 players in each position who are as good as each other. The best clubs have several positions where they have two or more really good players, or a bunch of players who between them can cover multiple positions (usually back row, centre or back three), but to have 30 "Top 6" quality players would bust the salary cap. Leicester's plight this time last year was illustrative - they were fielding sides full of solid players who would find a home in most Prem squads and were close enough to the first XV players to be able to rotate in in a few positions. But field second stringers in all 15 positions and weaknesses were ruthlessly exposed. And that's Leicester, who are probably still the benchmark for squad depth.

Unless your benchmark is, say, Toulon, I think Quins are now among the better teams in the AP for squad depth. The big challenge is that NEv is so far ahead of his backups that the team as a whole needs a slightly different game when he's not on the pitch, and they haven't had the game time to adapt.
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Post by yappysnap on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:18 pm

Yea we do need to give Nev's deputy plenty of game time with the first team so they can build that confidence together.

Am looking forward to seeing how Botica goes when he does get a game for the first team. Already there's plenty of hype about him.

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Post by Poorfour on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:20 pm

yappysnap wrote:Yea we do need to give Nev's deputy plenty of game time with the first team so they can build that confidence together.

Am looking forward to seeing how Botica goes when he does get a game for the first team. Already there's plenty of hype about him.

Just wait until he misses a few kicks...
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 09 Oct 2012, 6:40 pm

Evans is helping Quins out here. For all the talk of player rotation Quins still rely on injury to prompt the majority of their rotation and that is especially visible at 10 and 12. Clegg has gone backwards in recent times and there's been no sign of Casson. Evans is justifiably looking at the injuries he is suffering and worrying they will cut short his career. He needs someone to take on some of the burden and is forcing the Quins management to finally facd this.

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Post by glamorganalun on Wed 10 Oct 2012, 12:14 pm

It's a hard life playing a game 28 times a year on a salary most of us would love to get paid. I wonder if he played half the number of games he would be happy with half the wages or pay as you go/game played.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 10 Oct 2012, 1:49 pm

When Moody retired doctors told him that they thought the required rest period from a game of professional rugby should be 5 weeks. That would be enough time for the body to fully heal.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 10 Oct 2012, 1:57 pm

Give him fewer games. Rotate Nev/JTH withClegg/Botica. everyone will be better for it in the long term and we can win the less massive games without Nev
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 10 Oct 2012, 2:00 pm

Glam, I doubt it's that he doesn't actually want to play but Nev ended up injured a lot and having to play regardless last season. Most 10s get more of a rest than him and he is injury prone to a degree. I'd much rather rest him so he is 100% against HEC teams or the big contenders in the AP than wear him out which visibly occured last season
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