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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:08 am

According the the shiny headed Gregor Paul the pecking order amongst world rugby's half backs stands at:

No .1 : Will Genia
No .2 : Aaron Smith
No .3 : Mike Phillips

No. 4 : Clear Air

If this is the greatest All Black team, then the difference that sets them apart form the their predecessors may be Aaron Smith, he seems to suggest.

Aaron Smith has had a quicker rise to position of global pre-eminence than even Dan Carter or Richie McCaw and is the most significant All Black since Christian Cullen he argues.

Well! Some bold claims.

I wonder if this pecking order is "dry track thinking". Smith has yet to be tested in the boggy mud drenched arm wrestle of the NH AI environment. Will his lethal speed to the ruck and distribution be less important than say, Piri Weepu's "pantomime" and organised composed patient game? He mentions Mike Phillips physicality, maybe a more robust half back is better suited to this environment?

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:38 am

You mean "scrumhalf", not "halfback", only kiwis call number 9 "halfback". You said you weren't a kiwi

1. Ruan Pienaar
2. Will Genia
3. Aaron Smith

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:42 am


Gregor Paul being Gregor Paul.

But No .4. clear air. I dunno, I'll be watching Nick Phipps tomorrow night as I dont think he is that far away. he was brilliant in Super xv.

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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:43 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gregor Paul being Gregor Paul.

But No .4. clear air. I dunno, I'll be watching Nick Phipps tomorrow night as I dont think he is that far away. he was brilliant in Super xv.

Nick Phipps? He sounds like a character from Muriel's Wedding.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 8:58 am

Can't agree with ruan pienaar. Hasn't played well against us and another that shines on the lesser stages. Genia has in the past ripped us apart but this year, as most of the oz side has been subdued, then injured.

Aaron Smith has played well 'but who wouldnt' behind this pack and its more that his passing is significantly longer, flatter and quicker and it improves our chances out wide. But he's had his problems and needed reminding by weepu how to control the game more. Has a lot more to learn.

I think no. 4... daylight is first then Phillips, Smith, pienaar, genia but no one stands out. Potential? Definitely Smith...and TJ Perenara. thumbsup

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:11 am

I can't beleive Mike Philips and best in the world can even be said in the same breath.

Phillips is a terrible scrum half. His service is slow, his pass is sloppy and he spends too much time trying to be an "extra flanker" and not enough time being a scrum half.

Youngs and Care are far better Scrum halves than him.

Personally I would be putting Morgan Parra & Will Genia as the best in the world by some distance.
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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:20 am

Thing I like about Phillips is he picks he's moments. He can dawdle along behind that pack shovelling little passes here and there then he's off. At times transforms into an extra loosie for a few seconds then back to the norm.

Last two or three years he's been one of the more consistent. Youngs and Care have been anything but, and even now we don't know who the no.1 is.

9 is not a strong position globally interms of consistency though when fit and in form Genia stands above the rest by a distance.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:30 am

I'm not 100% convinced by Genia put a couple of big hits on him or turn him over a few times and he can become a little bit shaken. Under those circumstances he makes some poor decisions and the error count rises.

2 great examples of this Aus vs. Ire in the RWC and Aus vs. Sco in the summer.

He did however, absolutely rip the pish out of Phillips in the summer tests against Wales.

Morgan Parra for me is a superb scrum half, Brilliant vision, fantastic at readig the game, he commands the pack well and is imperious when box kicking and kicking from the tee.

IMO the best scrum half in the world at the moment.
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Post by whocares on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:32 am

only saw aaron smith recently play in the last SA-NZ game so maybe not enough to judge his recent progress. Am with Maesteg and would include Pienaar in the top 3 (in no particular order though) as he's currently seems the best of the NH bunch. Phillips doesnt seem to be anywhere near those guys (his club form doesnt help him for sure) : a couple of french and english scrummies would be above him. quick ball, quality pass and "game awareness" are still the most important skills required to be a good 9 wether or not its raining or not.

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Post by thebluesmancometh on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 10:58 am

"quick ball, quality pass and "game awareness" are still the most important skills required to be a good 9 wether or not its raining or not."

Have to disagree with that or Ritchie Rees would be up there. Phillips isn't the classiest scrum half but he is one of the most effective around at what he can do.

IMHO

1. Genia
2. Parra
3. A whole group of players who are flawed in some way ic. Phillips, Pienaar, Blair, Care, and Youngs.
4. Group of up and comers Smith, Phipps etc...

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Post by profitius on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:08 am

Its a horses for courses argument. Phillips suits the Welsh style of play while Genia suits the Australian style.

Pienaar, Parra, Yashvilli, Smith, Genia, Phillips, would all be up there IMO.

The French scrumhalfs play a different role than most others. They take more responsibility and decisions as well as kick for goal etc. Sometimes the French 10 looks more like a second five-eight.
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Post by disneychilly on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:21 am

Smith I don't think is established enough to warrant best in the world status. That's not to say he isn't talented though. In fact Profitius is right about the horses for courses thing-I wouldn't want any of those other halfbacks playing 9 for NZ in Smith's place. Am just so happy and excited to see DC catching bullets. The world's best 10 doesn't need any more time to make the right decisions, but he just got it.

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Post by whocares on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:35 am

profitius wrote:Its a horses for courses argument. Phillips suits the Welsh style of play while Genia suits the Australian style.

Pienaar, Parra, Yashvilli, Smith, Genia, Phillips, would all be up there IMO.

The French scrumhalfs play a different role than most others. They take more responsibility and decisions as well as kick for goal etc. Sometimes the French 10 looks more like a second five-eight.

very good point Profitius, some one like trinh duc is clearly a 12 in disguise. historically france have stuggled to consistently produce good flyhalves while down here scrumhalf is what all young gifted (and relatively small) players aspire at.

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Post by EnglishReign on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 12:16 pm

Is it silly to think Genia is overrated? Youngs has had the better of him 2/2 times.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

Aaron Smith is overrated. Good hairdresser though.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:21 pm

profitius wrote:Its a horses for courses argument. Phillips suits the Welsh style of play while Genia suits the Australian style.

Pienaar, Parra, Yashvilli, Smith, Genia, Phillips, would all be up there IMO.

The French scrumhalfs play a different role than most others. They take more responsibility and decisions as well as kick for goal etc. Sometimes the French 10 looks more like a second five-eight.

I love Parra and Yashvilli as they boss the game and the one thing i love is none of this aimless kicking. every kick thye do has a purpose and is not hit in hope.

think Pienaar and Genia are up there as well.

After those four it is hit a miss depending on the day. Philips is to much in and out of games and slow off the ruck for me.

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Post by chewed_mintie on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:24 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Aaron Smith is overrated. Good hairdresser though.

After only 10 tests he's overrated? Harsh critic...maybe he just won't make the cut?

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:27 pm

No hes good but to be called the 2nd best 9 in the world is certainly overestimating his talent.

He is definitely the best hairdersser/rugby player at the moment.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:37 pm

GunsGerms wrote:No hes good but to be called the 2nd best 9 in the world is certainly overestimating his talent.

He is definitely the best hairdersser/rugby player at the moment.

I agree, look how good a certain Irish scrum half was in his first few games. By the same token Cips at one point was in the top 3 fly halfs in the world.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 3:39 pm

Which Irish scrum half? Murray, gawd he's awful.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:06 pm

take your pick o'leary and now Murray are much the same.

If only stringer had philips build he would of been one of the best ever scumhalves

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:11 pm

The thing about genia, smith and phillips is they are their sides established 9s. Smith still finding his way.

Who is Frances? We played France with parra at 10.
England? Cares or youngs? SA? pienaar, houaad or fdpreez
If the country's themselves can't decide who is their best 9 how can they be world best?

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:19 pm

Taylorman wrote:The thing about genia, smith and phillips is they are their sides established 9s. Smith still finding his way.

Who is Frances? We played France with parra at 10.
England? Cares or youngs? SA? pienaar, houaad or fdpreez
If the country's themselves can't decide who is their best 9 how can they be world best?

Nicely accurate, TM
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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:23 pm

Brendan wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:No hes good but to be called the 2nd best 9 in the world is certainly overestimating his talent.

He is definitely the best hairdersser/rugby player at the moment.

I agree, look how good a certain Irish scrum half was in his first few games. By the same token Cips at one point was in the top 3 fly halfs in the world.

Laugh Only in certain newspapers and discussion forums Laugh

I quite enjoy this cycle of skepticism and remorse. Last seen with Keiran Read.


Last edited by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:29 pm

Brendan wrote:take your pick o'leary and now Murray are much the same.

If only stringer had philips build he would of been one of the best ever scumhalves

Agreed. Even without it Stringer IMO is Irelands best scrumhalf of all time.

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Post by Biltong on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:29 pm

The world is void of any brilliant scrumhalves at the moment.

Genia was there, but like Fourie du Preez did a few years ago has lost his mojo.
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Post by whocares on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:39 pm

Parra has been france number one scrum half in the last 3 years with Yachvili being close second. its not because a lunatic coach decided to try him at 10 that it is meant to mean anything....that said at the moment he's challenged by Machenaud.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

I have to say While Fourie DuPreez was a very good scrum half I always thought he was a bit overrated. He was a good boxkicker and good at sniping around a monster pack going forward and his ghame was very well suited to the Bok up and under game but was he really that good?

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:43 pm

Same with all the oz backs biltong. Overplayed.
Beale, Genia, joc, cooper, AAC- all overplayed by their national or sxv sides and no backups. Ben Alexander latest out.
Tonight oz have a side of either seconds or returning injureds, replacing other Injureds.

Happy with our three next couple years. Smith, kerr barlow and TJ Perenara- all young, talented and varied skills.

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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:44 pm

Good point GG, we never really saw more than one dimension from him. And is auspicious that his fall from "form" followed the Springbok's decline... and interesting that there is no room for him in the "new" administration.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 4:53 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I have to say While Fourie DuPreez was a very good scrum half I always thought he was a bit overrated. He was a good boxkicker and good at sniping around a monster pack going forward and his ghame was very well suited to the Bok up and under game but was he really that good?

As an all round 9 I wasnt that impressed either and it showed when a different style was required. But for 2007_2009 behind that back, with the gameplan and rules that suited his and SAs game perfectly he was streets ahead of anyone. That's all you can ask for in a 9. And he delivered consistently over that period. Trouble is, they tried to use him too long...like many bok players since then.

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Post by mowgli on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 5:52 pm

Biltong wrote:The world is void of any brilliant scrumhalves at the moment.

Genia was there, but like Fourie du Preez did a few years ago has lost his mojo.

Carp

Genia remains a step above everyone else

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Post by Biltong on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 6:05 pm

mowgli wrote:
Biltong wrote:The world is void of any brilliant scrumhalves at the moment.

Genia was there, but like Fourie du Preez did a few years ago has lost his mojo.

Carp

Genia remains a step above everyone else
Not this year.
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Post by mowgli on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 6:09 pm

Biltong wrote:
mowgli wrote:
Biltong wrote:The world is void of any brilliant scrumhalves at the moment.

Genia was there, but like Fourie du Preez did a few years ago has lost his mojo.

Carp

Genia remains a step above everyone else
Not this year.

Your opinion Biltong...and you're wrong


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Post by Biltong on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 6:12 pm

mowgli wrote:
Biltong wrote:
mowgli wrote:
Biltong wrote:The world is void of any brilliant scrumhalves at the moment.

Genia was there, but like Fourie du Preez did a few years ago has lost his mojo.

Carp

Genia remains a step above everyone else
Not this year.

Your opinion Biltong...and you're wrong

Nope, you're wrong.
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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 6:30 pm

Taylorman wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I have to say While Fourie DuPreez was a very good scrum half I always thought he was a bit overrated. He was a good boxkicker and good at sniping around a monster pack going forward and his ghame was very well suited to the Bok up and under game but was he really that good?

As an all round 9 I wasnt that impressed either and it showed when a different style was required. But for 2007_2009 behind that back, with the gameplan and rules that suited his and SAs game perfectly he was streets ahead of anyone. That's all you can ask for in a 9. And he delivered consistently over that period. Trouble is, they tried to use him too long...like many bok players since then.

Very overrated for me. I said it a few weeks ago to Biltongs friends and got told I knew nothing about Rugby.

And for the ones saying Phillips is crap, it's clear that you know nothing about Rugby.

Very Happy
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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:04 pm

Then there's a lot of people who 'dont know a lot about rugby' on these boards as mike phillips being crap or not is one of the most common themes on these boards. Not an opinion I share but nor do I dismiss their opinions both have very good reasons to be considered crap.

Both at their very best, doing what they do best...Fourie was the better 9. Best in the world by a margin on his day. At Phillips best, on his day, he might v been the best, that day.

That's the difference between the two.

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Post by mowgli on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:11 pm

Du Preez is massively over rated and made to look good by the team he played in, was never in or even near the class of Genia...as for Philipps, if you take the basic skills of a 9 on their own he is a good player but by no means a great, but MP brings much more to the table than that which is why he is so popular and successful in Wales. If he could get his head right he wouldn't be the abrasive physical player he is.

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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:15 pm

Ben Youngs would wipe the floor with any All Black scrum half.

Like Matthew Tait if youngs was an All Black he would have had 50 caps by now and be called world class.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:25 pm

Definitely not this year. Genia hasn't had his best year. Piennar, Parra or even the hairdresser are probably the form 9s.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:34 pm

Wipe the floor...interesting. not sure how that's measured but we`ll see how they both go in the england match, providing youngs makes it, or is selected. Of course Smith may have a better ride but that hasn't helped our recent 9s who have all been dour.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 7:37 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Ben Youngs would wipe the floor with any All Black scrum half.

Like Matthew Tait if youngs was an All Black he would have had 50 caps by now and be called world class.

You could say that for most of the squad. In fact, if they put the entire england squad into the ABs they'd be world champions, all play over 50 tests and would currently be on 16 straight. Nothing truer.

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Post by emack2 on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 9:49 pm

Aron Smith Is in his first year at test level and is an excellent prospect,BUT is no where near the best yet.IF Perenara had stayed fit he may well have started over Smith.Pinaar?Hougaard would be my Bok choice.Genia as a half back is outstanding probably Worlds Number One.But his Captaincy is indifferent as is his
decision making.Phillips,Ben Youngs,Skrela or Parra arguably Byron Kelleher is the best in the Top14 and NH.
There is more to half back play than a great fast pass BUT that certainly helps.
Aron Smith has certainly that but behind according to Mark Reason a less than
Dominant pack ?.With in Tony Woodcock a loosehead not known for his Scrummaging abilities ?He gets by OK I won`t bother to comment on Reason`s
statements they are as biased as his fathers John.

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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:01 pm

It's just painful that despite perennial superiority, NZ have to make the annual pilgrimage to the NH to remind those there of reality.

Yawn. Cue drama over the Haka, claims of McCaw cheating, Wales finally winning one, England "rebuilding", then the weeks of excuse making about rust and what-not.

Frankly it's tedious.

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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:03 pm

Another article for ghostie to brag about how good NZ are despite the world being against them. Big time yawn!

Anyway, when in November do you think it will be Wales' day?
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Post by anotherworldofpain on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:04 pm

Don't get me wrong, the rugby will be excellent, it's just the regurgitated baggage that is tough to stomach.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 19 Oct 2012, 11:31 pm

For NZ Smith suits our game as the extra yard and second means the world to an attacking side. His value as a player is he's able to make others play better.

Perenara is the better sniper and hustler around the pack and kerr barlow is best on defence and stealing. So all three make the perfect 9. For NZ. I certainly wouldn't swap smith for anyone else at the mo. For a first year. B+

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Post by mowgli on Sat 20 Oct 2012, 2:36 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:Don't get me wrong, the rugby will be excellent, it's just the regurgitated baggage that is tough to stomach.

regurgitated!

where did you learn that AWOP.....at your English class laughing laughing

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Post by rodders on Sat 20 Oct 2012, 10:57 am

I really rate Phillips actually. When hes on form he can be unplayable and he creates so much time and space for his outside backs due to his ability to tie in the opposition back row. He has been absolutely fundamental to Wales becoming the top team in the NH.

Its hard to compare him to other scrum halves because he's not your typical orthodox no 9.

Pienaar has been head and shoulders the best SH in European rugby over the past few seasons but isn't without his weaknesses. His tackling is poor and he can be a bit too inclined to kick the ball away. Brilliant player though.

Haven't seen enough of Smith to comment on him but Genia would be my pick as the top 9 around right now.


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Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Sun 21 Oct 2012, 12:08 pm

If Chris Cusiter had managed to stay uninjured for more that a few weeks at a time he could have been up there. Mike Blair back a few years too, but he is playing 2 Div in France now for the money (quite right) but on his day a very accomplished,brave and skilful SH.
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