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Post by Portnoy's Complaint on Fri 16 Nov 2012, 6:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Current World Rankings

IRB Rankings at
http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings#mru

Fixtures according to http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/fixtures/_/league/180659/

Best odds for each result category from a range of bookies as at http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/six-nations

Code:


Saturday, March 18

Scotland v Italy 12:30 PM -- BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

sco (on 82.18 points) at home -vs- ita (on 71.17 points)

If sco win by 1-15 points 0.000 82.18 71.17 No
If sco win by more than 15 0.000 82.18 71.17 No
If result is a draw 1.000 81.18 72.17 No
If ita win by 1-15 points 2.000 80.18 73.17 No
If ita win by more than 15 3.000 79.18 74.17 No

Scotland (1/16)
Draw (66/1)
Italy (15/1)

France v Wales 2:45 PM -- Stade de France, Saint-Denis

fra (on 81.21 points) at home -vs- wal (on 82.16 points)

If fra win by 1-15 points 0.795 82.00 81.36 Yes
If fra win by more than 15 1.193 82.40 80.97 Yes
If result is a draw 0.205 81.00 82.36 No
If wal win by 1-15 points 1.205 80.00 83.36 No
If wal win by more than 15 1.807 79.40 83.97 No

France (8/13)
14:45TV
 

France (8/13)
Draw (25/1)
Wales (13/8)

Ireland v England 5:00 PM -- Aviva Stadium, Dublin

ire (on 83.18 points) at home -vs- eng (on 91.02 points)

If ire win by 1-15 points 1.484 84.66 89.54 No
If ire win by more than 15 2.226 85.41 88.79 No
If result is a draw 0.484 83.66 90.54 No
If eng win by 1-15 points 0.516 82.66 91.54 No
If eng win by more than 15 0.774 82.41 91.79 No

Ireland (6/4)
Draw (25/1)
England (9/13)

Original thread:
http://www.606v2.com/t12724p950-irb-world-rankings-part-1


Sources:
Fixtures : http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/fixtures/4776295.stm
IRB Rankings : http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/fixtures/international.html
Rankings explanation : http://www.irb.com/rankings/explain/index.html
Rankings archive : http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/index.html
Fixtures : http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/current/match/scores/recent.html

Online calculator (Courtesy of Robbo277 (thanks)) : http://www.lassen.co.nz/pagmisc.php#hrh


Last edited by Portnoy's Complaint on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 12:12 pm; edited 122 times in total

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Post by Cyril on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 10:33 am

Heh, what absolute bitter drivel you're spouting. Let it go Smile

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Post by Sin é on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 10:48 am

Cyril wrote:Heh, what absolute bitter drivel you're spouting. Let it go Smile

He has the highest average of giving out cards for a start!

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/RefereeSinBins?comp_id=436
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Post by GunsGerms on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 11:00 am

Cyril wrote:Heh, what absolute bitter drivel you're spouting. Let it go Smile

Haha Cyril. The truth hurts.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 11:05 am

You lot are so boring

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Post by Fanster on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 11:41 am

Have to say, Barnes has had poor patches in the past but the last 18-24 months he's been on a strong trajectory and last weekend was as good a performance from a ref I have seen, I think I even mentioned it on the match thread after half time!

I didn't know it was him as I was watching online and not paying attention to the ref, half time came and I was thinking jees the guy in the middle has been good, then realised it was Barnes.

Very very good performance from him, there are no arguments about last weekend here!!

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Post by GunsGerms on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 11:45 am

Fanster wrote:Have to say, Barnes has had poor patches in the past but the last 18-24 months he's been on a strong trajectory and last weekend was as good a performance from a ref I have seen, I think I even mentioned it on the match thread after half time!

I didn't know it was him as I was watching online and not paying attention to the ref, half time came and I was thinking jees the guy in the middle has been good, then realised it was Barnes.

Very very good performance from him, there are no arguments about last weekend here!!

Even a broken clock is right twice every day. Barnes has the odd decent game but he has been involved in way too many controversies to ever be considered a good referee.

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Post by profitius on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 5:45 pm

Anyone have Barnes' record reffing Ireland matches?
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Post by Portnoy's Complaint on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 6:45 pm

profitius wrote:Anyone have Barnes' record reffing Ireland matches?

Australia?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 7:07 pm

If you played better maybe you'd win when he was in charge. Always easy to blame the ref but it's rarely the case that's he's responsible for the outcome of a game.

Anyway.....

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Post by Portnoy's Complaint on Wed 12 Aug 2015, 7:47 pm

New OP.

Won't be as many changes this week but Georgia must be gagging for a fair crack of the NH whip.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 10:46 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
profitius wrote:Anyone have Barnes' record reffing Ireland matches?

Australia?

Wayne Barnes Record:
World Rugby Rankings - Page 10 Barnes12

Barnes also reffed Ireland's infamous world cup warm up game v Bayonne when he allowed the game descend into madness. In this game Brian O'Driscoll got a punch in the face and suffered a fractured cheek bone a few weeks out from the world cup in a group that contained France.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLoExeByUiE

http://www.the42.ie/battle-of-bayonne-odriscoll-barnes-1740280-Oct2014/

Brian O'Driscoll appealed to Wayne Barnes to to restore calm during this game. Extraordinarily Barnes completely ignored the Irish captain.

O'Driscoll actually said the following to Barnes:

“An hour into it, I’ve had more than enough. I tell him my players are getting gouged, and if he doesn’t do something about it, I’m taking them off the pitch."

Barnes ignored O'Driscoll and O'Driscoll ended up in hospital. The is absolutely no question that Wayne Barnes is the worst referee in the history of professional rugby.

There cannot even be a debate about it, it is so blatantly obvious.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 11:19 am

Laugh the 'notes' on that list of games are comedy gold.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 11:22 am

Cyril wrote:Laugh the 'notes' on that list of games are comedy gold.

I aim to please Cyril Yahoo

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 11:41 am

Well there is question and debate as hardly nobody agrees with you, you're just coming across as bitter and quite sad.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 11:45 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well there is question and debate as hardly nobody agrees with you, you're just coming across as bitter and quite sad.

You come across as quite thick. laughing

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Post by beshocked on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 11:57 am

picard Knew that Barnes was going be mentioned...

Gunsgerm's hatred of Barnes makes my hatred of Monsieur Rolland (je suis francais mais je suis irlandais aussi) seem tame.

I would feel your pain if Wayne Barnes was Welsh and was reffing Wales vs Ireland but he's not.

Sure you wouldn't complain if JP Doyle reffed an Ireland game!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 12:36 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well there is question and debate as hardly nobody agrees with you, you're just coming across as bitter and quite sad.

You come across as quite thick. laughing

Rolling Eyes

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 1:34 pm

beshocked wrote: picard  Knew that Barnes was going be mentioned...

Gunsgerm's hatred of Barnes makes my hatred of Monsieur Rolland (je suis francais mais je suis irlandais aussi) seem tame.

I would feel your pain if Wayne Barnes was Welsh and was reffing Wales vs Ireland but he's not.

Sure you wouldn't complain if JP Doyle reffed an Ireland game!

Well he did live in Wales. Go figure. Anyway he is just a really bad ref.

JP Doyle probably wont be given Ireland games.

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Post by GunsGerms on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 2:05 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well there is question and debate as hardly nobody agrees with you, you're just coming across as bitter and quite sad.

You come across as quite thick. laughing

Rolling Eyes

Ok I take it back but to be fair I have given lots of fairly solid arguments as to why I don't think he is a good referee.

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Post by profitius on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 4:06 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
profitius wrote:Anyone have Barnes' record reffing Ireland matches?

Australia?

Wayne Barnes Record:
World Rugby Rankings - Page 10 Barnes12

Barnes also reffed Ireland's infamous world cup warm up game v Bayonne when he allowed the game descend into madness. In this game Brian O'Driscoll got a punch in the face and suffered a fractured cheek bone a few weeks out from the world cup in a group that contained France.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLoExeByUiE

http://www.the42.ie/battle-of-bayonne-odriscoll-barnes-1740280-Oct2014/

Brian O'Driscoll appealed to Wayne Barnes to to restore calm during this game. Extraordinarily Barnes completely ignored the Irish captain.

O'Driscoll actually said the following to Barnes:

“An hour into it, I’ve had more than enough. I tell him my players are getting gouged, and if he doesn’t do something about it, I’m taking them off the pitch."

Barnes ignored O'Driscoll and O'Driscoll ended up in hospital. The is absolutely no question that Wayne Barnes is the worst referee in the history of professional rugby.

There cannot even be a debate about it, it is so blatantly obvious.


Cheers! I know that on top of that, the penalty counts against Ireland go abnormally high when Barnes is ref.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 4:54 pm

Probably now the best ref in the world.

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Post by Fanster on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 7:29 pm

You can talk about contraversies all you like, but refs are like players, they learn, they develop and the grow with experience...

There is such a small talent pool for refs, that we are forced to rely on the best we have available, and Barnes is in that pot!

Like I said, over the last 18 months or so Barnes performances have been getting better, and this most recent game was a superb performance by him, I hate it when people criticise refs constantly then refuse to admit to correct calls or good performances because 6 years ago he gave Wales a match winning kick for what I perceive as a good tackle despite never going to IRB school to learn what a good tackle is, or train like a pro athlete to get into the position to see the tackle, or take test after test after test to prove I know what a good tackle is...

See my point!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 13 Aug 2015, 8:44 pm

From an AP perspective, Barnes is easily our best referee. Whenever he officiate's at Falcons I know we'll get a fair result.

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 6:35 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well there is question and debate as hardly nobody agrees with you, you're just coming across as bitter and quite sad.

You come across as quite thick. laughing

Rolling Eyes

only quite!

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 8:31 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:From an AP perspective, Barnes is easily our best referee. Whenever he officiate's at Falcons I know we'll get a fair result.

Well there aren't great refs in the AP or England to be fair. England only has two elite refs at the moment and one is Irish. The other is far from elite.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 8:33 am

Fanster wrote:You can talk about contraversies all you like, but refs are like players, they learn, they develop and the grow with experience...

There is such a small talent pool for refs, that we are forced to rely on the best we have available, and Barnes is in that pot!

Like I said, over the last 18 months or so Barnes performances have been getting better, and this most recent game was a superb performance by him, I hate it when people criticise refs constantly then refuse to admit to correct calls or good performances because 6 years ago he gave Wales a match winning kick for what I perceive as a good tackle despite never going to IRB school to learn what a good tackle is, or train like a pro athlete to get into the position to see the tackle, or take test after test after test to prove I know what a good tackle is...

See my point!

Yes I do but with Barnes it is different. He is that bad. They have been way too many anomolies and contraversies in Ireland games when Barnes has reffed for me to have any respect for him. He was as bad as ever in the last game he reffed for Ireland. Sorry but its that simple.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 9:15 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:From an AP perspective, Barnes is easily our best referee. Whenever he officiate's at Falcons I know we'll get a fair result.

Well there aren't great refs in the AP or England to be fair. England only has two elite refs at the moment and one is Irish. The other is far from elite.

The officiating in the AP isn't the greatest, I can certainly agree with that. Barnes is excellent though, there's few better in the NH.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 9:54 am

Another question. Are Ireland really the 2nd best team in the world or are the rankings nonsense?

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:00 am

Fanster you are right. Form of refs goes up and down just like players.

Personally I think that Luke Pearce's stock has risen greatly in the last two years - think he's one of the best now in the AP- he's gone from one of the worst reffing displays I have ever seen to a strong consistent performer.

In contrast I think JP Doyle has gone from one of the top refs to one of the worst.

As for Wayne Barnes - personally I think he's one of the best refs in the world.

Nigel Owens is obviously no 1 ref still.

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Post by Notch on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:01 am

Probably nonsense, but I think they reflect the fact there is very little in between number 2 and 5 when you look at how close the teams actually are so it's not like the rankings are saying Ireland are way in front of the teams behind them. Australia and South Africa have much harder fixture lists so I don't read into us being only marginally ahead of them. At the same time, I know from our most recent meetings with them that there is no reason for us to feel we can't match them over 80 minutes.

Given World Cup games are worth twice the rankings points, being ranked highly before the RWC means the sum root of feck all- it's where teams are after the tournament finishes that will tell you what you need to know. There will be a lot of movement during the tournament.
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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:06 am

It is probably nonsense but at least we have defeated everyone behind us fairly recently.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:17 am

Barnes did not officiate the scrums particularly well in the Australia v NZ game and was not particularly consistent. Here is some good analysis
of how incompetent he is:

http://www.the42.ie/australia-new-zealand-scrum-analysis-2267495-Aug2015/

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:21 am

Disagree, he was excellent in that match.

I'd expect any of the top 2-5 to win at home against their peers. It's extremely tight but about right on recent form.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 10:27 am

It's interesting because England have won the last 4 out of 5 vs Australia, won the last 3 out of 4 vs Ireland but have a very poor record vs South Africa.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 11:07 am

I didn't realise we had such a good recent record against Ireland. I must admit, I'd fancy us at home against any of the home nations, it's SA & NZ that worry me.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 11:18 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I didn't realise we had such a good recent record against Ireland. I must admit, I'd fancy us at home against any of the home nations, it's SA & NZ that worry me.

Its not that good. The six nations head to head is 9-7 to Ireland. Ireland have the most recent win and the two prior losses were really close games.

In fairness I think both teams are fairly evenly matched at the moment though I feel Ireland have a marginally better coach.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 11:21 am

I think you have the much better coach Guns, I don't think SL is doing as well as he could with the players available to him.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 11:32 am

If England were to meet Ireland in the RWC I'd put England as slight favourites as they're at home (if it were in Ireland then Ireland would be slight favourites). If Ireland play SA or Aus then it would be at a neutral ground in which case I'd say SA and Aus would be slight favourites (Aus debatable given Ireland beat them on neutral turf in 2011). NZ would be clear favourites on neutral turf.

4th/5th favs for Ireland is probably about right but (as mentioned above) 2nd-5th should be expected to win at home against each other given current form (and rankings points).

If you're looking at rankings it's better to look at the ranking points differences rather than just the ranking numbers. Then factor in home advantage.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 11:40 am

Cyril wrote:If England were to meet Ireland in the RWC I'd put England as slight favourites as they're at home (if it were in Ireland then Ireland would be slight favourites). If Ireland play SA or Aus then it would be at a neutral ground in which case I'd say SA and Aus would be slight favourites (Aus debatable given Ireland beat them on neutral turf in 2011). NZ would be clear favourites on neutral turf.

4th/5th favs for Ireland is probably about right but (as mentioned above) 2nd-5th should be expected to win at home against each other given current form (and rankings points).

If you're looking at rankings it's better to look at the ranking points differences rather than just the ranking numbers. Then factor in home advantage.

I agree with you on Ireland v England. However, I would fancy my chances v SA in a neutral venue possibly even SA. SA have lost 7 of their last 11 games. Thats almost as bad as Ireland's record when Wayne Barnes refs.

Ireland also hammered SA in their last meeting. To be honest even though Ireland beat Australia at a neutral venue at the last WC Id prefer to play SA than Australia in this one.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 1:10 pm

Gunsgerms you've never beaten SA in SA, also Ireland have been avoiding SA in SA. Would suggest to me Ireland are afraid and instead want to mainstay their artificially good record vs SA by just playing in Ireland.

Yes if you go far back enough it's 9-7 to Ireland - should we go even further back?

Overall record - 129, 74 wins to England, 47 wins to Ireland, 8 draws.

The reality is the last 4 out of 5 games have been England wins -3 games in Dublin, 2 in England.

Ireland won the last game but that was in Ireland.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 1:49 pm

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms you've never beaten SA in SA, also Ireland have been avoiding SA in SA. Would suggest to me Ireland are afraid and instead want to mainstay their artificially good record vs SA by just playing in Ireland.

Yes if you go far back enough it's 9-7 to Ireland - should we go even further back?

Overall record - 129, 74 wins to England, 47 wins to Ireland, 8 draws.

The reality is the last 4 out of 5 games have been England wins -3 games in Dublin, 2 in England.

Ireland won the last game but that was in Ireland.

Haha laughing

I highlighted the funniest part.

Ireland have only played in SA a handful of times so it isnt surprising we have not won there. There is a three test tour to SA next year.

Also 74 wins vs 47 is actually quite a poor record for England if you take everything in to consideration.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:06 pm

74 wins to 47 is a poor record?!?! I'm not sure many would agree with that.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:25 pm

Gunsgerms

Why else would you not play SA in SA then? You're one of the only top tier NH sides ducking SA.

You've only toured SA a handful of times - pretty obvious you're avoiding them.

About time you tour SA - you've put it off long enough.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:27 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:74 wins to 47 is a poor record?!?! I'm not sure many would agree with that.

Ireland is a small country Pooly. There are 1,990,988 registered players in England and only 153,080 in Ireland.

Ireland only has 4 professional rugby teams. There are 24 in the top two tiers of English rugby.

Ireland's second tier of rugby the AIL league is predominantly amateur with sides only allowed two pro players.

Realistically England should win every time against Ireland, yet in the professional period the record is fairly even.


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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:31 pm

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms

Why else would you not play SA in SA then? You're one of the only top tier NH sides ducking SA.

You've only toured SA a handful of times - pretty obvious you're avoiding them.

About time you tour SA - you've put it off long enough.

How is playing 3 tests in 2016 ducking them?

There was a rumour that SA v Ireland games in SA havent happened in a while because of the away jerseys rule. SA always refusing to wear the change kit for Ireland tours. Sounds about as plausible as Ireland being afraid to tour there.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:36 pm

NZ are a small country - hasn't stopped them.

Also Ireland having a smaller player pool makes it easier for players to develop and make the transition from club rugby to international rugby.

Munster,Leinster,Connacht and Ulster have huge catchment areas and far less competition than England.

England have a lot more competition in terms of sports.


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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:38 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:74 wins to 47 is a poor record?!?! I'm not sure many would agree with that.

Ireland is a small country Pooly. There are 1,990,988 registered players in England and only 153,080 in Ireland.

Ireland only has 4 professional rugby teams. There are 24 in the top two tiers of English rugby.

Ireland's second tier of rugby the AIL league is predominantly amateur with sides only allowed two pro players.

Realistically England should win every time against Ireland, yet in the professional period the record is fairly even.


I can't agree with that Guns, you play what's in front of you. Population doesn't equate to rugby prowess, or China & India would be topping the IRB rankings.

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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 3:46 pm

beshocked wrote:NZ are a small country - hasn't stopped them.

Also Ireland having a smaller player pool makes it easier for players to develop and make the transition from club rugby to international rugby.

Munster,Leinster,Connacht and Ulster have huge catchment areas and far less competition than England.

England have a lot more competition in terms of sports.


No, the reason Ireland and New Zealand are ranked 1 and 2 in the world is because they both have centrally contracted players and the rugby structures top to bottom are quite similar. Critically club systems are set up to support the international side.

Yes NZ are a small country but the difference is in Ireland until recently rugby was a niche sport played only by a very small, select demograph. Gaelic games have always been our national sports. Rugby is New Zealands national sport and doesnt have much competition for that billing.

England doesnt have any more competion for sports than Ireland would. The numbers of rugby participants and pro teams speak for themselves in any case.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 5:05 pm

Gunsgerms

Yes there is more competition in England. You can't compare gaelic games to cricket,tennis,football,golf,cycling,athletics etc.

Nothing in Ireland compares to football in England anyway.

Having more participants doesn't make a team better or bigger.

Quality not quantity. Best academies, best training, best young talent (strong competition from other sports affects this), best fitness, best coaching, player welfare

Ireland's smaller player pool and acquiring a good NZ coach has helped Ireland significantly.

4 strong regions being pampered for years is better than 24 pro teams having to share a pot of money.

The quality of players is also diluted and shared between clubs instead of pooled into a handful of super clubs.






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Post by GunsGerms on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 5:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms

Yes  there is more competition in England. You can't compare gaelic games to cricket,tennis,football,golf,cycling,athletics etc.

Nothing in Ireland compares to football in England anyway.

Having more participants doesn't make a team better or bigger.

Quality not quantity. Best academies, best training, best young talent (strong competition from other sports affects this), best fitness, best coaching, player welfare

Ireland's smaller player pool and acquiring a good NZ coach has helped Ireland significantly.

4 strong regions being pampered for years is better than 24 pro teams having to share a pot of money.

The quality of players is also diluted and shared between clubs instead of pooled into a handful of super clubs.


Ireland also plays all of those sports. You are missing the point anyway, there are still way more pro players and pro teams in England and there are much more resources. There are no excuses really.

Ireland didnt need a New Zealand coach to have a good pro era record v England. Both our previous Ireland coaches also had good records v England.

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