Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

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Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:46 pm

I've read a lot of criticism of SV over his three titles not making him an ATG, but I wonder who they're arguing with.

As things stand he's shown himself a very strong young driver at Sauber and Toro Rosso, and being put into a good car he won the WC in 2010 despite a very immature campaign, and then do much better the next year, and then again in a car that was quite vulnerable both in standard and reliability until near the end. He showed fortitude and skill in rescuing desperate situations late on and seems to stay very calm regardless of situation whilst being bold and aggressive, even when situations invite more conservative driving.

However, this is only the early part of his career. He's 6 years younger than Alonso, who's hardly finished. He's already put under his belt a huge amount of experience, making him an older head on young shoulders.

I think these all lead it to be a fair proposal that he could easily become an ATG; he's ahead of the curve for sure.

Rather than focus on the the things a 25 year old hasn't yet done, isn't it a fairer assessment to tick off the things he HAS done, and reflect that with the time he has in front of him he's a good bet to become one of the great names of the sport.
I certainly don't see anything he's done so far which suggests he CAN'T do so, he's got none of the question marks that most of his contemporaries have (JBs 'steadiness', LHs mental lapses), and I think that to fail a 25 year old triple WC because he hasn't yet done the whole list of things an ATG may need to have done is overdemanding at best, and churlish at worst.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by GSC on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:24 pm

You can't deny his achievements, especially at his age. Its a bit early to declare either way I feel, while hes still got work to do, he has the time to do so.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by SteveG on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:16 pm

As everyone knows F1 is a totally skewed. The only thing that matters is the drivers championship even though it is completely a team sport - from the designers that build the car to the pit crew who change the wheel nuts. So the only way any driver can really be judged is against his teammate. Hamilton would have jumped in next years RB9 in a heartbeat to prove a point against Vettel (you can tell that he's itching) but Red Bull seemingly turned him down. Why? Like Schumi it seems like Vettel is more concerned about the stats book - driving the right car at the right time alongside an obliging teammate. Senna took on Prost, Hamilton has took on Alonso and Button - world champions going toe to toe. So Untill he has the balls to go head to head with the best of the best - and beats either Hamilton or Alonso using the same equipment he'll never get my vote.

It's that simple.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:19 pm

Yes, I've heard that. But as a 25 year old just a few years in the sport, what do you see positive about what he's done so far?

By the way, just on a point you raised; can you think what team changes Lewis has made in order to test himself against a top driver? Other than Nico Rosberg I mean.
Now I think about it, same question about Alonso; what moves has he made to get himself together with an established top dog? I know he left a team with a top driver in it, but has he moved toward a challenge like that?

No, me neither.

In fact, the only active driver I can think of right now to have lived up to that challenge is ... Jenson Button.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by SteveG on Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:54 pm

Positives: Hardly ever makes a mistake and beneath the smile he's ruthless and single minded. I like that. He also collected enough points this season to stay in the game when the car coudn't even make Q3. The only thing that gets my goat is all the top F1 drivers have the same DNA and Vettel can throw his toys out of the pram just as far as Hamilton but doesnt get half the flack.

As for Hamilton. You miss my point. He is prepared to beat all other drivers to prove he's the best. Nico is his teammate next year quite frankly because Merc were the only game in town outside of Mclaren. But make no mistake he would love to be squaring up to Vettlel.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:16 am

Yes, I think Vettel has progressed greatly over 2010, when he kind of crashed his way to the title. I agree on Hamilton's perception. That's got no bearing on Vettel of course, but I do think it colours perception of him, unfairly.

Perhaps Hamilton would like to be in the RB; maybe he'd like to be in a great car (though I think he's just left one!), but really the only one who's actually passed that bravery test is Button. Alonso surely gets a -1 mark for leaving McLaren to go to Ferrari whereas Hamilton/Vettel get 0.
In fact I wonder why Ferrari rejected Hamilton; couldn't be Alonso blocking it, could it? Surely St Fernando couldn't be running scared?


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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by SteveG on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:29 am

Agreed. The one thing most F1 drivers generally hate is a fast teammate. But I really do believe that Hamiltons attitude breaks the mould. He truly believes he is the fastest out there and there seemingly isnt an ounce of self doubt.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by Belgarion of Riva on Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:21 am

He showed fortitude and skill in rescuing desperate situations late on and seems to stay very calm regardless of situation
---------------

I agree that Vettel is nigh on unbeatable in the fastest car on the grid but to say he is calm regardless of the situation isn't accurate.

I can highlight 2 examples where he didn't show that just this year alone; US grand prix and the Hungaroring.


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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by beninho on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:03 am

He is clearly a very good driver. You do not win 3 championships by being average. He also won a race in a Torro Rosso, which is not a bad thing.

You cannot judge him as an all time great until his career is over though.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dummy_half on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:42 am

Vettel now is in a position not too dissimilar to that Schumacher found himself in at the end of his time with Benneton (although Seb has one more title and less of a reputation for ramming opponents off the road) - proven ability to win the title with the best car (Schumi's Benneton was better than the Williams because it didn't break so often and was more driveable, a bit like this year's RB against the McLaren). What he has achived so far though has been in a team with a second driver who is not his equal (even Webber has admitted that on some days the difference in performance is simply Vettel's ability to put in a quick lap).

So, if he is interested in cementing his place amongst the ATGs, he needs to do one of the following:
1 - Allow a really good team mate into RB. Basically, that means one of Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen or Button.

2- Move to a team that does not have the benefit of Adrian Newey's design genius, and develop the team into serious title contenders. Schumi was the catalyst for Ferrari coming back to the front of the grid. It's not clear though where Vettel could go to achieve the same (Ferrari and McLaren are there already, Renault not far off and Mercedes have Hamilton committed to them for a couple of seasons at least).

Clearly too soon to consider Vettel an ATG - if he has no further successes for the rest of his career, in my mind he'd be on the same sort of level as Emerson Fittipaldi: great early success when in the best car, but probably a level below the absolute legends of the sport.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:18 pm

Belgarion of Riva wrote:He showed fortitude and skill in rescuing desperate situations late on and seems to stay very calm regardless of situation
---------------

I agree that Vettel is nigh on unbeatable in the fastest car on the grid but to say he is calm regardless of the situation isn't accurate.

I can highlight 2 examples where he didn't show that just this year alone; US grand prix and the Hungaroring.

Hmmm, the last few races seem to have shown he hasn't got an unbeatable car so I think this is a bit of a catch-22; if he wins it's because his car is fastest, which "proves" he only wins in the fastest car. You see the problem?

As someone said earlier he had a car at one point in the season that didn't make it into Q3 but he stayed in touch.

PS I watched the spin at the start of the Brazilian GP again; the presence of mind to get the car fully turned rather than side-on (you can see him turning the wheel to get right round, he isn't just whacked there), and then to stay in a straight line going backwards, is one of those moments these guys do when I just think they are a different breed. The fast driving doesn't really amaze me most of the time but something like that shows a mental sharpness under great stress and urgency that is just weird.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:21 pm

dummy_half wrote:Vettel now is in a position not too dissimilar to that Schumacher found himself in at the end of his time with Benneton (although Seb has one more title and less of a reputation for ramming opponents off the road) - proven ability to win the title with the best car (Schumi's Benneton was better than the Williams because it didn't break so often and was more driveable, a bit like this year's RB against the McLaren). What he has achived so far though has been in a team with a second driver who is not his equal (even Webber has admitted that on some days the difference in performance is simply Vettel's ability to put in a quick lap).

So, if he is interested in cementing his place amongst the ATGs, he needs to do one of the following:
1 - Allow a really good team mate into RB. Basically, that means one of Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen or Button.

2- Move to a team that does not have the benefit of Adrian Newey's design genius, and develop the team into serious title contenders. Schumi was the catalyst for Ferrari coming back to the front of the grid. It's not clear though where Vettel could go to achieve the same (Ferrari and McLaren are there already, Renault not far off and Mercedes have Hamilton committed to them for a couple of seasons at least).

Clearly too soon to consider Vettel an ATG - if he has no further successes for the rest of his career, in my mind he'd be on the same sort of level as Emerson Fittipaldi: great early success when in the best car, but probably a level below the absolute legends of the sport.
So by this yardstick Alonso will never be an ATG because he's never allowed a good driver to join him, and indeed ran off when Hamilton turned out to be good at McLaren. He almost certainly vetoed Hamilton at Ferrari too. Nor is he developing the Ferrari like Michael did.

Generally though I agree, my point is that assessing him for ATG status is a false measure, he's only 25. I think he's shown the potential though, and sh1t but he has plenty of time to do it!

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dummy_half on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:54 pm

Bogbrush

At this moment I wouldn't put Alonso into the discussion of ATG - 2 drivers world titles early in his career and then being consistently in the best 3 or 4 drivers on the grid makes for a very good to great driver but at least a level below what is needed to be compared with all time greats. I think the year at McLaren where Hamilton as a rookie matched him (and but for some bad luck would have beaten him and claimed the title) counts against Alonso's claim to true greatness. I also get the impression that he is, in a fairly quiet way, the most 'political' driver since Prost, in how he keeps his team on his side and keeps Massa (who is decent to good, but quite clearly his inferior as a racer) in the 2nd seat at Ferrari.

I agree qith your basic premise though - so far Vettel's career is consistent with that of someone who will eventually be considered an ATG, and that there will be quite a bit of CV expanding between now and the end of his career...

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by John on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:23 pm

This is topic is just so premature, nobody is going to win an argument for or against greatness. Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel are not ATG's, far from it.

I keep reading this 'Vettel is unbeatable in the fastest car on the track' comment quite annoying. If Hamilton or Alonso were in that Mark Webber seat then this comment would not be repeatedly stated. Vettel has already stated this week he sees no point in moving team, not surprising, seeing as Red Bulll are the dominant team in the sport. Just shows to me, unlike Hamilton, that Vettel has no desire to really test himself or his ability against the best within the sport in equal machinery. Tells alot.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:26 pm

Vettel will almost certainly retire an ATG, he isn't there yet IMO (though not that far off), but he has plenty of time to get there.

This season he's really impressed me, managing to pick up decent points when struggling, and being dominant when he did get the good car (ok, great car really). Much more impressive than his first WC (which he really should have wrapped up halfway through the season given how dominant his car was) and his second (which he did wrap up halfway through the season, but had such a dominant car it wasn't even interesting), and generally he's stayed out of trouble pretty well (sure there's been the odd incident, but less than most, and like light and day compared to 2010).

Yes, he's had his fair share of luck (not least McLaren's reliability issues + inability of the car to take even the slightest knock without crashing out, Ferrari's inability to develop the car properly, etc.) but show me a world champion who hasn't.

Other than that I agree with dummy's first post: to be an ATG, he probably needs to be taken out of his comfort zone somewhat, as if he isn't, rightly or wrongly, there will always be those saying "good driver, but couldn't do it in a lesser car".

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by Critical_mass on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:42 pm

Simple really. As John said its a premature discussion. He's only 25, not been in the sport long enough and we'd have to wait until he retires in order to make a judgment.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dummy_half on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:44 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
This season he's really impressed me, managing to pick up decent points when struggling, and being dominant when he did get the good car (ok, great car really). Much more impressive than his first WC (which he really should have wrapped up halfway through the season given how dominant his car was) and his second (which he did wrap up halfway through the season, but had such a dominant car it wasn't even interesting), and generally he's stayed out of trouble pretty well (sure there's been the odd incident, but less than most, and like light and day compared to 2010).


Agree with that - he's certainly answered some of the criticisms this year (like the 'can't overtake without crashing' myth). It's difficult to judge this year just who had the best car - clearly the RB was the best over the last month or so (after a spell of McLaren dominance), but earlier in the season the cars were so sensitive to condition changes and how they got the tyres to work that the 'best' car changed week to week and sometimes even session to session.

I do think he was lucky on Sunday in his car surviving the first lap impact with insufficient damage to put him out of the race - it's ironic that he survived an incident where he was as much sinning as sinned against (he turned in on Senna, who couldn't go anywhere else, so it was a 50/50 one for me), while Hamilton was the innocent by-stander as Hulkenberg side-swiped him out of the race. However, over the course of the season the luck probably even's itself out pretty much (well, other than LH, who if it wasn't for bad luck would have had no luck) - he had a couple of poor results because of dodgy alternator parts, so that probably off-sets the good fortune in Brazil.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by beninho on Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:44 pm

Can we clear up the vettel in the fastest car, which keeps trying to be defended. Vettel won 5 races this season. 3 from Pole one from second with Webber in front, and once from third. So at best Vetell won once when not in the fastest car. and won 4 times when in the fastest car. Which goes to show that he was very good at winning races when he had the fastest car.

Make sense?

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:28 pm

John wrote:This is topic is just so premature, nobody is going to win an argument for or against greatness. Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel are not ATG's, far from it.

I keep reading this 'Vettel is unbeatable in the fastest car on the track' comment quite annoying. If Hamilton or Alonso were in that Mark Webber seat then this comment would not be repeatedly stated. Vettel has already stated this week he sees no point in moving team, not surprising, seeing as Red Bulll are the dominant team in the sport. Just shows to me, unlike Hamilton, that Vettel has no desire to really test himself or his ability against the best within the sport in equal machinery. Tells alot.
How can a topic suggesting its premature to judge him against ATG status be premature?

That you think at 25 he should have ticked just about every ATG criteria off, well it "tells me a lot", as they say.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by GSC on Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:43 pm

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/30/2XiYoo_2eU63pXgzXW0hbw2.jpg

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by John on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:26 pm

I said the topic is premature in classifying him as an ATG and that discussing it is just way too early, that's all. Did I say he should have ticked all the ATG boxes at 25? NO! Seriously what are you on?

Of course this topic is premature, it's ridiculous. Have the discussion in three more years time or when he's decided to actually race his nearest rivals in terms of ability in equal machinery, then have the discussion. Vettel will just continue to dominate his teammate and he will probably end up with a fourth title next year, seeing as Hamilton is seemingly out of the equation. Vettel's strides to win as many titles as possible with a dominant team and break as many records that will cement his place in history. He's stated he wishes to stay with the team and I can't see him leaving Red Bull until he's matured and nearer thirty before he realises that leaving the team and racing for an inferior team will actually give him more respect amongst his fellow drivers and F1 fans.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Er...... the article doesn't classify him as an ATG. It says its way too early to say but he's in a good place at this stage of his career to become one.

You need to read stuff before reacting, stops you looking stupid. Well, it's a step in the right reaction anyway.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by John on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:52 pm

Just creating topics like this is stupid and I expect to see more during the off-season. Why don't you just create one for Alonso & Hamilton while your at it. There both WDC and are rated as the two best within the sport and have achieved vast amounts of success in F1.

It's just pointless stating that he's well on his way to becoming an ATG, everyone knows he is if he continues on his current path with Red Bull. Vettel still in my opinion has a few question marks over his driving. His drive in Abu Dhabi was littered with mistakes and that's twice he's connected with Bruno Senna in races this season. Every driver has flaws in one way or another, after all there human.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:11 pm

The point is that we have lots of people going on about his shortcomings as an ATG, which is in itself a bit stupid.

I didn't do one for Alonso and Hamilton as they've not achieved anything which is in any way record breaking or extraordinary, so there's just no debate even to observe.

By the way, it's ok that you misread the article and went off on one, it kind of proved my point for me.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by GSC on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:12 pm

I though Hamilton already was the GOAT judging by this board

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:16 pm

Vettel's not THE All Time Great, but he's certainly ONE OF the all-time greats.

Speaking simply as an enthusiastic fan, I'd say he doesn't have the natural racing instinct of someone like Ayrton Senna or Lewis Hamilton, or his idol/mentor Michael Schumacher. He seems to rely much more on the team working out the best strategy and then driving to that strategy.

Of course, he has shown a few times that he can mix it with the best, but that is generally when he has one of, or the best car on the grid. Stick him back in the pack and more often than not he struggles, if his car does not give him an advantage.

That said, there aren't many Triple World Champions knocking about and only 2 others who have done it back-to-back. You could also argue it takes a certain kind of skill to be able to execute the team's strategy perfectly, on a regular basis.

In summary, I'd say Vettel IS one of the greatest drivers to have ever graced the sport...but not THE greatest.

It's all subjective to a degree, but I suppose it depends whether you like your drivers to be natural racers or more technical strategists.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Vettel is nowhere near Schumacher yet, and Senna is an unfulfilled career so tough to evaluate. I mean, the loser kept winning titles in the best car and we know those don't count, don't we?

Why is Hamilton in this conversation?

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:20 pm

I would just like to say that (for me) it is too soon to be labelling Vettel an all-time great. Of course everyone has their own differing opinions and for some people it takes a number of things to impress.

Winning three back-to-back world titles is seriously impressive but personally the gloss is taken a bit off that as Red Bull have been the fastest car/team in that time and with the Leonardo Da Vinci of car designers Adrian Newey there it kind of cements titles for me. If Vettel moves out of the comfort zone and wins further titles at lesser teams then that would impress me more than what he has achieved to date.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:47 pm

This does seem to be criticism levelled specifically at Vettel. It doesnt seem to have hurt Sennas reputation that he won his titles in the best car.

Lets also remember that Hamilton has yet to drive anything but a McLaren

Vettel also achieved in a poor car.

My article was stating he isn't yet an ATG; he's only 25. I think be will be though, I think the guy really is the business.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by Critical_mass on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:16 am

bogbrush wrote:

Lets also remember that Hamilton has yet to drive anything but a McLaren

True, but what you've got to remember is that the Mclaren wasnt always the best car. Not to say it wasnt up there with the rest. But even in 2008 when he won the WDC, the Ferrari often looked to have the edge.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:This does seem to be criticism levelled specifically at Vettel. It doesnt seem to have hurt Sennas reputation that he won his titles in the best car.

Lets also remember that Hamilton has yet to drive anything but a McLaren

Vettel also achieved in a poor car.

My article was stating he isn't yet an ATG; he's only 25. I think be will be though, I think the guy really is the business.

Well lets remember that Senna wasn't in the best car from 1984 to 1987 driving for Toleman and Lotus yet he still managed to win six races. Shocked After that he moved on to McLaren and yes it was the fastest car but where his team-mate from 1987 to 1989 was a top rival in Alain Prost widely regarded as the best other driver around at that time (unlike Webber is to Vettel). From the early 1990's onwards McLaren had been overtaken as the top team but he still rolled out the race wins and challenged for world titles. A lot there that Sebastian Vettel has yet to do.

As for Hamilton I don't rightly recall anyone tagging him an all-time great and he shouldn't be either until he can rack up a few more world titles.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:50 am

But Vettel showed his ability in becoming the youngest ever race winner, in a Toro Rosso (their first ever podium), and didn't spend that much time there.

As for Hamilton, I'm afraid he has to do a lot more than win a few more titles. According to your yardstick he also has to go to an uncompetitive car and win races.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:07 pm

Everyone judges greatness in their own way. For me in F1 that is judged by who their real competitors are and as Seb has been in the fastest car in the last three seasons his yardstick is Webber and he is not in the same mould or class as Alain Prost (Senna's team-mate and title rival) and when Webber remotely looked like challenging Vettel we all saw how Red Bull favoured the German to snuff out Webber's challenge. So for me until he is in a car that is on a par or slower than other drivers I won't feel that he has risen to any real challenge. Now you may rate greatness in your own way and that is your choice as I said everyone rates greatness in their own way.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:11 am

My article said it's a strawman argument, meaning people criticise him for not being what he can't be at 25, an ATG.

Hamilton obviously has never driven an uncompetitive car, which Vettel did, and won in.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:34 am

But there again who is seriously labelling Hamilton as an all-time great? Not me certainly. However, we will now get a real idea of his talent as he drives in an uncompetitive car next year. It will give us all a much better idea much in the same way as it would with Vettel.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dyrewolfe on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:38 am

bogbrush wrote:But Vettel showed his ability in becoming the youngest ever race winner, in a Toro Rosso (their first ever podium), and didn't spend that much time there.

As for Hamilton, I'm afraid he has to do a lot more than win a few more titles. According to your yardstick he also has to go to an uncompetitive car and win races.

If memory serves, Jenson Button won a race for BAR Honda and Damon Hill won in an Arrows (or was it a Jordan?) In any case it does show F1 can throw up odd results from time to time. Even this season Rosberg and Maldonado got wins for Mercedes and Williams.

Hamilton's had an uncompetitive car for at least 2 of the seasons he's been with McLaren. It was arguably the best in his first season and probably the best in his title winning year. This year it was the best for the first half of the season but got overhauled by Red Bull. The 2009 car was a dog and the next 2 were only marginally better.

During the bad times Hamilton still managed to win races and score points finishes. Still, you're right that his time at Mercedes will be a good indicator of just how talented he is at developing cars and getting results from equipment that definitely isn't the best on the grid.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dyrewolfe on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:53 am

Back on topic, regardless of whether he's had the best equipment or not, I think you still have to look at Vettel as one of the all-time greats. After all, you still have to produce the results and more often than not, he has.

Okay, Michael Schumacher confounded expectations in winning his first 2 titles with Benetton, but he enjoyed pretty much the same benefits as Vettel has had in winning the next 5.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by SteveG on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:02 pm

If Hamilton had driven for the so called fizzy drinks company over the last few years he would no doubt be sitting on Vettels lofty perch as we speak and this debate would be about him and not Vettel.

Hami is moving to Merc at least a year too early IMO and it is highly probable that he is leaving behind the best Mclaren car since 2007 and without this years cockups could easily take a second crown. In contrast Vettel will probably take next years crown (with No Hami at Mclaren) and move to Ferrari at the perfect moment and smash all records.

The car is king and the ability to be in the right car at the right time is the unsung talent of an F1 driver and is something that Vettel is proving to be a master at.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dyrewolfe on Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:07 pm

Thats the thing, isn't it?

While you obviously have to be talented to drive a F1 car well, so much also depends on luck and timing, as well as having a good engineering team.

I think it should be acknowledged Vettel has achieved something pretty special (only done twice before by 2 acknowledged legends of the sport).

That said, you can argue truly great drivers can also help turn around the fortunes of struggling teams. Its one thing winning titles when you have the best car, but if Vettel wants to really cement his reputation, he'll have to leave Red Bull at some point.

I could see him joining Mercedes at some point in the next few years. I think they're one of the few teams that can match Red Bull financially, plus there's the German connection.

Imagine that...then we might just have the situation we've all longed for...Hamilton and Vettel fighting it out in equal machinery!

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:31 pm

I have to disagree that Vettel will end up at Mercedes dyrewolfe. It seems pretty much settled that Vettel's next stop will be Ferrari but me thinks he will wait until Alonso has retired. I just cannot see those two working together as a team for various reasons.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by bogbrush on Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 pm

Alonso has form when it comes to being joined by competitive younger teammates.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:02 am

Yes that was one part of my reasoning and in any case Vettel will not want to move from his position of team No.1 at Red Bull to being a No.2 at Ferrari which Alonso would only be willing to accept.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by Alessandro Ciambella on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:56 am

Belgarion of Riva wrote:He showed fortitude and skill in rescuing desperate situations late on and seems to stay very calm regardless of situation
---------------

I agree that Vettel is nigh on unbeatable in the fastest car on the grid but to say he is calm regardless of the situation isn't accurate.

I can highlight 2 examples where he didn't show that just this year alone; US grand prix and the Hungaroring.


If you expect a driver to remain emotionless like a robot in the 90 minutes of driving during an entire race then you have been grossly misinformed. It’s impossible. It’s like expecting a Rabbit to bark like a dog. Or a Kettle to cook you a roast dinner.

Vettel is a very calm driver. He has a reputation as a 'lapper' and in order to gain such a thing it requires consistency and confidence. Take Abu Dhabi for example. He started from the pit lane on a track that was allegedly near impossible to overtake on. Yes, he was flustered on a few occasions that seen him break his front wing and hit a bollard. BUT his ability to calm down and apply himself after these incidents was admirable. Other drivers would still be loaded with testosterone and adrenaline from these events and probably planted their car into a wall. He put the events behind him and found a way to make a podium position.

This guy is a natural driver who can overtake and can compete in races in equipment which is not always the best. If you had a team and could pick 2 drivers then Vettel would have to be one or else you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If people can look past the finger and their own biases toward their favourite drivers then they would notice that they have a super talented driver on the grid that should be appreciated and respected for what he has achieved. For me he is already an ATG.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by GSC on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:32 am

I wouldn't say he's an ATG yet because its far too early to say that, but at the same time you can't write off 3 titles in a row like some here like to

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by kingraf on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:41 pm

Golden rule in GP: The ideal teammate is one Three seconds a lap slower. I cant recall who said this, but its true.

Mark Webber has been a more than able #2, definitely more skilled than a lot of others in GP history. I have a sneaking suspicion Rosberg will outshine LH this year.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by John on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:48 pm

Rosberg on Hamilton - ''He was my teammate in karts. At that time, we had great battles. That's what I'm looking forward to - a new fight with Lewis. I do not think that if I can beat him, then I'll get full recognition. I am confident that I can do the work well. It is difficult to say how things will turn out. Lewis is very fast. I've known him since his karting. Then he beat me, and I was second, but Formula 1 is another formula".

Interesting comments by Rosberg, I sense a slight acceptance on behalf of Nico that he does not think, he knows Lewis is faster than himself. It will be an interesting battle for sure, one I'm looking forward to immensely. I think it will fundamentally come down to qualifying and that will the difference between the two in my opinion, grid position is critical. Hamilton was the only driver to make Q3 at every weekend and Nico Rosberg on many occasions made mistakes in Q3 under the pressure to perform.

I just hope the car is competitive for both guys to shine first of all, that's more important.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 pm

My thoughts exactly.

Rosberg at least has a race win under his belt, so he's had a taste of what its like to lead a race and take the chequered flag. I'm hoping both he and Hamilton get to do that a fair bit more over the next couple of seasons.

I also think Nico is accepting that, Lewis being a former champion, he will be the senior driver and expected to push the team forward, even if he's not officially given No.1 status.

Still, having him as a team mate will hopefully spur Rosberg on to greater things, given their history and karting rivalry.

If the Mercedes really is as competitive as some of Hamilton's test times are suggesting, it could make for a very interesting title battle.

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Re: Vettel ATG; a strawman argument?

Post by SteveG on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:12 pm

Ross is fast so once again Hami takes on a formidable teammate showing that he fears noone (unlike a few others who prefer a pet monkey). It'll be close over one lap but it's in the race where I expect the gap to be bigger as Hamiltons quality as the better racer (IMO) shines through. That said, tyres and to a lesser degree DRS play such a big part in the race these days that driving on the ragged edge, overtaking and ruthless wheel to wheel combat - Hamiltons forte are more or less being rendered obsolete so wouldn't put my house on it.

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