Bath in pursuit of Faletau

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Post by Impossible Standards on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:15 am

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/story-17699820-detail/story.html?

NOOOO....... Not our Toby! Will be gutted if he leaves. Crying or Very sad

Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:20 am

Makes sense for Bath, Taylor is a cheap shot mechant past his best and their backrow is in desperate need of another ball carrier who will put himself about in defence.

I though Faletau had another year on his contract? Will Bath be coughing up compensation?

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Post by Ozzy3213 on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:23 am

Well they certainly have the cash to do so Sam, although I am not sure how they would manage to fit someone like Faletau under the salary cap if as is widely tipped they also sign Jonathan Joseph, particularly as they will also need to sign players to cover those positions during the international window as well.
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:29 am

I'd presume they are getting ready to offload a good chunk of squad players signed under Geech. Classens is also off.

Don't compensation payments have to come under the cap?

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Post by Impossible Standards on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:30 am

Apparently they were talking about a transfer fee. To be honest I really hope we keep him at RP but it's getting harder to keep any of our better players due to our low status and financial limitations.
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Post by Ozzy3213 on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:31 am

Not sure, the cap is still a bit of a mystery to me. Just seems like if you can afford to pay the fines for breaching it then you have carte blanche to pretty much ignore it. It's a bit of a farce in my eyes and can only be seen to be fair if administered transparently.
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:40 am

Repeated fines or a serious breach mean a points deduction though I agree about the lack of transparency though. Makes it look a bit murky.

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Post by Ozzy3213 on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:42 am

There is no definition of what constitutes a serious breach though I don't think. Very murky indeed.

Anyway, back on to Faletau, what's his form been like recently, I've not seen much of the Dragons the past couple of months.
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Post by Impossible Standards on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 11:58 am

He's starting to find a bit of form recently. Was MOTM against the Blues in the east Wales derby. It was a slow start for him at the beginning of the year but I would say the last month or so he's looked really good.
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Post by yappysnap on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 12:08 pm

Would he actually expect to get paid that much though? I mean obviously he'll be getting a very good wage but he's not a superstar signing. Joseph is the same, he can probably expect a pretty decent wage but he's not the finished article, isn't an established international and hasn't proved much this season so won't be on a top wage.

And Bath do have a lot of cack in their squad. Take out Louw, Donald, Claasens, Banahan and Attwood and not many of the others can be on big wages.

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Post by yappysnap on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 12:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Makes sense for Bath, Taylor is a cheap shot mechant past his best and their backrow is in desperate need of another ball carrier who will put himself about in defence.

I though Faletau had another year on his contract? Will Bath be coughing up compensation?

Bath do have Louw, Fearns, Skirving and Mercer in their squad to pick from. 3 of those players are very good.

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Post by Ozzy3213 on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 12:12 pm

I would imagine both Faletau and Jospeh would command a fairly decent salary yappy. They are both current internationals and are both very young men who will only get better over time.
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Post by HongKongCherry on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 12:20 pm

He would be an excellent signing for Bath and he'd create a dangerous backrow with Fearns and Louw. However, over the last few years there have been countless rumours linking players to Bath that have failed to materialise. I would take this with a very large pinch of salt and only believe it when I see it!
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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 1:34 pm

Come on Toby at least go to a decent team.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 1:39 pm

It would be interesting to see how Toby would fair in the Jeff. IMO he is a very good player, but I don't know if he is physical or nasty enough to survive in the league.
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Post by Scrumdown on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 2:21 pm

Apart from faletau and lydiate, there isn't a single player in the dragons squad who would warrant a salary above £100k. They are surely therefore way under the salary cap of £3.5million, especially when lydiate leaves next season.

So why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger). No wonder roger lewis wants more control.




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Post by VinceWLB on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 3:23 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:It would be interesting to see how Toby would fair in the Jeff. IMO he is a very good player, but I don't know if he is physical or nasty enough to survive in the league.

It would be the same as in the rabo as the aviva is by no means more physical than the rabo.

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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 3:34 pm

Scrumdown wrote:

So why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger). No wonder roger lewis wants more control.




What and you think those two are worth a gold bullion or two? Doh
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Post by Scrumdown on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 3:49 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:

So why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger). No wonder roger lewis wants more control.




What and you think those two are worth a gold bullion or two? Doh

My point is that the money spent on tuilagi and tanderaw would be better spent topping up faletau and lydiate's salaries.

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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 4:28 pm

Not if you need a big crashball centre. Those will probably leave for reasons other than financial ones.
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Post by Guest on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 4:29 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:

So why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger). No wonder roger lewis wants more control.




What and you think those two are worth a gold bullion or two? Doh

My point is that the money spent on tuilagi and tanderaw would be better spent topping up faletau and lydiate's salaries.

Well no it wouldn't actually. If you said something sensible like the money used on them may be used to help get a gnarly prop, then you may have a point. We are still not going to compete with the "culture" that France can offer, even without Tuilagi etc.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 4:43 pm

I doubt Andy Tuilagi is on much. Sale weren't paying him a great deal as they picked him out of the A team at Tigers where he couldn't get a game for the first team.

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Post by Guest on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 4:56 pm

Of course he isn't, neither can Chavhanga be. Neither can exactly command high wages.

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Post by Morgannwg on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 5:00 pm

And that was my point in the beginning.... Dragons would have fought tooth and nail to keep Lydiate, like they will with Toby. If they leave it won't be just for a high wage. Is Danny definitely going to Racing Metro?
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Post by Guest on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 5:13 pm

I've actually heard from an extremely, extremely, extremely reliable source that Lydiate is leaving because the Dragons have not offered an increase in wages from his current (circa £70k) contract. For one of the best flankers in Europe, you'd think they'd offer him a little bit more at least.

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Post by Guest on Fri 28 Dec 2012, 5:27 pm

Depends with Lydiate though. Firstly they probably rely on his loyalty after they stuck by him through injuries etc and secondly, he's unlikely to stay if he is off to France no matter what the Dragons offer him.

I thought I read that they did offer him a better contract. Of course we may never know unless he goes to the Blues or something and the uproar that follows may unearth the truth. If he's off to Racing, then I don't think we could compete with them.

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Post by glamorganalun on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 10:41 pm

I thought Edwards stated the Dragons salary is well below the latest CAP at around or below £2.5M? I can believe that looking at their players.

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Post by Guest on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 10:44 pm

glamorganalun wrote:I thought Edwards stated the Dragons salary is well below the latest CAP at around or below £2.5M? I can believe that looking at their players.

Better players than a bitter man than you though aren't they. Another pointless post. Well done

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 10:45 pm

Lets just hope he gets a release clause.

Would rather he was off to France than England, better still staying in Wales.

Would be a great signing for any region.

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Post by Glas a du on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 10:54 pm

Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?

Yes, but not for the Dragons...
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Post by glamorganalun on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 11:06 pm

Faletau would be mad going to Bath, he needs to go to one of the top teams to get front foot ball to show off his talents.

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Post by dragon999 on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 11:41 pm

Glas a du wrote:
Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?

Yes, but not for the Dragons...

you know this for a fact do you? - don't underestimate what's going on at the Dragons,you may well be very surprised Shocked

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Post by Glas a du on Sun 30 Dec 2012, 11:43 pm

I hope so, it's just...you know...Roger
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Post by glamorganalun on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 12:03 am

dragon999 wrote:
Glas a du wrote:
Will there be any Welsh internationals playing in Wales in 5 years time?

Yes, but not for the Dragons...

you know this for a fact do you? - don't underestimate what's going on at the Dragons,you may well be very surprised Shocked

What do you know that nobody else knows, have we got more investment or is it simply the Dragons are going to break even? If it is breaking even it does not clear debts from previous years e.g., the WRU still have large liabilities despite the spin.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 9:28 am

VinceWLB wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:It would be interesting to see how Toby would fair in the Jeff. IMO he is a very good player, but I don't know if he is physical or nasty enough to survive in the league.

It would be the same as in the rabo as the aviva is by no means more physical than the rabo.

The Rabo is a physical as the Jeff yes, but the style of play is not the same. Toby is deemed to be a good No. 8 because of his running/handling skills. His tackling and bash-merc work is not as important (even though he does it well). Where as IMO in the Jeff the attitude is more for your No. 8 to be a beast who smashes his way through the line, as opposed to Toby's style of more pace/angle. So I think that the tactics generally addopted by the JEff would be less suited to his skill.
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Post by Notch on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 10:28 am

Faletau should go to France not England. He has too much talent to be used merely as a bosh merchant and thats what he'll be if he signs for anyone bar the top two or three English sides.
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Post by maestegmafia on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 10:45 am

Notch wrote:Faletau should go to France not England. He has too much talent to be used merely as a bosh merchant and thats what he'll be if he signs for anyone bar the top two or three English sides.

It is a point being raised by many. I agree with you too. Selfishly as a Season Ticket Holder at Bath RFC as it is my nearest club I would like to see more of Toby. But I don't think the way rugby is played in the premiership benefits our players where as France does.

Plus French clubs are happy to work with the WRU on player release.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 1:49 pm

So where does this leave Fearns...

Is he not seen as a true 8...is he now a 6?

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Post by Scrumdown on Mon 31 Dec 2012, 1:59 pm

It would be no surprise to me if the majority of central funding received by the dragons is going straight into the pocket of martyn hazell to repay his outstanding loans as it is clearly not going on the squad. There is very little motivation to improve performance when you know you will receive the same funding regardless of how you perform.

WRU would be better off allocating funds based on who is able to spend that money most effectively, just as a bank would.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:15 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Plus French clubs are happy to work with the WRU on player release.

To be fair English clubs are happy to work with WRU, but WRU refuse to negotiate with them and will only talk to the RFU.

There are several reasons why PRL insist on collective bargaining. The most well known is to maintain a strong bargaining position with the RFU. Lesser known but becoming more relevant is the difficulty insuring players in UK. French employment/National Insurance laws offer much more protection should a player get injured (Jim Hamilton has cited this as the main reason for moving to France to play). WRU refuse to insure players while on int duty - leaving clubs to pick up the bill.

As always in a disagreement - neither side is whiter than white and who is more right depends on the viewers perspective.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 4:56 pm

Doesn't help that the PRL have a poor image in the Rabo countries but as in so many things the WRU refuse to negociate and then throw their toys out their pram when the other side refuse to bow down to their demands.

Who do Bath have out of contract this season? They must be releasing some players if they are going to buy out Faletau.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 5:06 pm

Bath contract dates (age when out of contract))

Ross Batty 2015 28/11
Eusebio Guinazu 2014 32/8
Lee Mears 20?? 34/3
Rob Webber 2015 29/1
Charlie Beech 2014 27/1
Nathan Catt 20?? 25/7
Paul James 2014 32/3
Kane Palma-Newport 2014 23/10
Anthony Perenise 2014 31/10
Davey Wilson 2014 29/4
Dave Attwood 2013* 26/4
Ryan Caldwell 20?? 29/0
Dominic Day 2015 30/0
Stuart Hooper 2014 32/9
Carl Fearns 20?? 24/3
Nick Koster 2014 25/6
Francois Louw 2014 29/2
Guy Mercer 2013* 23/8
Josh Ovens 2014 25/1
Ben Skirving 2013* 29/10
Simon Taylor 2013* 31/0
Michael Claassens 2013* 30/10
Chris Cook 2014 23/4
Mark McMillan 2013* 30/3
Stephen Donald 2014 30/8
Tom Heathcote 2015 23/6
Sam Vesty 2013* 31/9
Dan Hipkiss 2013* 31/2
Ben Williams 20?? 24/3
Matt Banahan 20?? 26/8
Horacio Agulla 2014 29/11
Tom Biggs 2014 30/0
Kyle Eastmond 2014 25/2
Semesa Rokoduguni 2013 29/11
Olly Woodburn 20?? ??/?
Nick Abendanon 2015 29/0
Jack Cuthbert 2013* 26/11


Theres a lot of scope to make savings with guys like Attwood, Vesty, Hipkiss and Claasens up at the end of the season. Id assume Mears is going to be on a reduced deal if he sticks around


Apparently they had a sniff for Ben Youngs, presumably as a potential Claassens replacement

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 5:13 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Plus French clubs are happy to work with the WRU on player release.

To be fair English clubs are happy to work with WRU, but WRU refuse to negotiate with them and will only talk to the RFU.

There are several reasons why PRL insist on collective bargaining. The most well known is to maintain a strong bargaining position with the RFU. Lesser known but becoming more relevant is the difficulty insuring players in UK. French employment/National Insurance laws offer much more protection should a player get injured (Jim Hamilton has cited this as the main reason for moving to France to play). WRU refuse to insure players while on int duty - leaving clubs to pick up the bill.

As always in a disagreement - neither side is whiter than white and who is more right depends on the viewers perspective.

Yes

All exactly why many of us in Wales are disappointed to lose players to Premiership Clubs.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 5:34 pm

Apparently they had a sniff for Ben Youngs, presumably as a potential Claassens replacement

I'd imagine they'll go for Micky Young though. He'd fit in with their current squad.

Vesty and Hipkiss are on good deals that are unlikely to be renewed.

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Post by Scrumdown on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 6:41 pm

Why on earth would a player such as Ben Youngs want to leave Leicester for a small club such as Bath?

Also, should a club such as Bath not be expected to produce its own stars instead of relying solely on the wealth of its owner to pinch players produced elsewhere.







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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 9:16 pm

Why on earth would a player such as Ben Youngs want to leave Leicester for a small club such as Bath?

He doesn't, he turned down the chance to listen to offers in January and signed a deal at the same time has his brother a month ago.

No such deal for Micky Young or Sam Harrison though French 9 David Mele is rumoured to be a done deal.

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Post by manofgwent on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 9:37 pm

I hope we are able to keep Toby for another season. I think it's obvious that he won't renew his contract at the end of the 2014 season. It all depends how desperate the finances are. It's being reported that Bath would be offering as much as £250,000 for him to be released from his contract a year early. As a fan you never like to see your best players depart, but we're getting used to it now and you couldn't blame Faletau for wanting to get away for the Dragons.
There's no doubt he's an absolute class act and watching his performances in a poor team and at the back of a desperately weak scrum is about the most enjoyment I get from watching the Dragons. He was superb against the Blues on Boxing day. If Toby goes to a strong European team he'll be a revelation.
Sadly I think there will be a few more at the end of the season who'll be looking to get out too. With just over 7,000 at the Ospreys game and with us looking to only finish above Zebre in the league there is a was a real feeling of defeat at Rodney Parade last night. We go to Connacht on the weekend. A place where we usually get a spanking. Not sure what attendances will be like for the rest of the season.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 10:10 pm

Scrumdown wrote:why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger).



Tanderaw?

For chuff's sake. You're on the internet! Open a new tab and find out what his name is! How lazy are you?

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 10:16 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:why are the dragons unable to offer faletau the market rate when they can afford the likes of tuilagi and tanderaw (the winger).



Tanderaw?

For chuff's sake. You're on the internet! Open a new tab and find out what his name is! How lazy are you?

I don't think Tuilagi or Tonderai are on anywhere near the same wage that Faletau is being offered.

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Bath in pursuit of Faletau Empty Re: Bath in pursuit of Faletau

Post by Scrumdown on Tue 01 Jan 2013, 10:27 pm

But use tuilagi and tanderaw's salary to top up faletaus. Dragons appear to prefer to sign up 5 journeymen rather than two world class homegrown players. I think charteris made a similar comment when he left last year.

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Bath in pursuit of Faletau Empty Re: Bath in pursuit of Faletau

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