v2 G.O.A.T Round 2 Match 11

First topic message reminder :

Morning, all.

After a brief pause we're back in the thick of the v2 G.O.A.T action. Tuesday's round 8 match saw Sir Steve Redgrave dominate Shane Warne, the 5-time Olympic rowing champion of Great Britain taking a huge 70% of the votes and going through to the last sixteen at the expense of the Australian leg spinner, who had to be content with 30%.

Elsewhere, football legend Diego Maradona topped a very competitive 3-way group, advancing to the next stage with 46% of the votes cast in match 9 as two track and field giants, Edwin Moses and Daley Thompson, fell by the wayside with 35% and 19% respectively.

Match 11 here has Sugar Ray Robinson, often cited as the greatest boxer of all time, squaring off against Michael Jordan, often cited as the greatest basketball player of all time. Curiously, we are still lacking a write up for Jordan, but vote away and leave your reason why you voted for the man you did.

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Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight
Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

Gee in the last hour or so Michael Jordan got about 15 votes.....

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gee in the last hour or so Michael Jordan got about 15 votes.....

If that's true it has to be looked in to.

Way ahead of you Duty

Yet again dodgy voting arises on a basketball player. Votes rocketed once drivel monger hans and the Non Event Lads arrived on the thread.

Good man Rowley, please ban Hans as part of the outcome of your investigation.

SRR by an absolute mile.

This is an utter travesty if Jordan wins this and completely ruins the credibility of the whole process. Who on Earth voted for him?!

Very suspicious that Robinson is consistently ahead by a dozen or so votes all the way through the voting period and then is overtaken at the end.

Adam D wrote:I can confirm that at least 3 duplicate accounts were created last night from the same poster.

The tally will be reduced by at least 3 votes possibly more firther to our investigation.

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban. I suggest they contact the admin team to let us know how many duplicate votes they have created. Think of it as a plea bargain.

Is the rule, one account per person or one account per personality?

Adam D wrote:I can confirm that at least 3 duplicate accounts were created last night from the same poster.

The tally will be reduced by at least 3 votes possibly more firther to our investigation.

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban. I suggest they contact the admin team to let us know how many duplicate votes they have created. Think of it as a plea bargain.

Pretty sad and pathetic that someone would do that.

Adam D wrote:

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban.

A permanent one then?

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Adam D wrote:

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban.

A permanent one then?

I can confirm that the 3 ideas match the user with the name "Mind the Windows Tino" and he is now perminantly banned

Adam D wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Adam D wrote:

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban.

A permanent one then?

I can confirm that the 3 ideas match the user with the name "Mind the Windows Tino" and he is now perminantly banned

If I was clever enough to create multiple accounts Adam, do you not think I would have done it by now!

I'm Tina!

Late to this lot - another day with one easy to judge pair (Bradman ahead of Ruth) and this one really closely matched.

I get from the boxing fans here that SRR is considered by the experts as the finest overall boxer ever - unfortunately, his case is slightly harmed in this case in that his reputation was set in the days before TV coverage of fights was a big thing and before almost all of us here were alive, so his place in our awareness is lower than say Ali. However, the more I have read on here about fighters of the early to mid 20th Century, the more impressed I am with them as a group of sportsmen - boxing was definitely far more of a sport and far less of a show than is the case now, and the sheer volume of fights these guys fought is just staggering.

As for Jordan - well, he was he figurehead in the globalisation of NBA basketball. A fantastic athlete and a magnificent big game player, one of the few sportsmen who has really transcended his sport and become part of the public consciousness (OK, Nike played their part, but they picked the right guy to back in this case). What I particularly like about Jordan is that his freakishness related to athleticism rather than simply size - OK, being about 6'5" doesn't make him particularly small, but he wasn't freakishly tall in the manner of Wilt Chamberlain or Shaq, who gained their advantage over their opponents primarily from being 7'+ .

I think I'm just edging towards Jordan, but with the thought that these are two guys who really should have been in the top 8.

You're no-where near funny enough.

So Jordan won this, justice was done. Excellent.

I called this ages ago.

Hopefully Pot Noodles gets a permanent ban.

superflyweight wrote:

Adam D wrote:I can confirm that at least 3 duplicate accounts were created last night from the same poster.

The tally will be reduced by at least 3 votes possibly more firther to our investigation.

The duplicate user will also be serving an appropriate ban. I suggest they contact the admin team to let us know how many duplicate votes they have created. Think of it as a plea bargain.

Is the rule, one account per person or one account per personality?

Actually you know what... you may have a point.

actually its going to end up with SRR once they take the vote rigging out.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gee in the last hour or so Michael Jordan got about 15 votes.....

So SRR wins then.

Ermmm i smell a rat..

I have a funny feeling that SRR has had votes from multiple accounts as well..

Jordan to be reinstated!!!

Asian betting syndicates eh? They get everywhere.

So who's actually won then? Did Jordan get more than 5 suspect votes?

There are some seriously sad individuals about.

It Must Be Love wrote:
I called this ages ago.

Hopefully Pot Noodles gets a permanent ban.

The Main Event Lads presented by Spaghetti Hans categorically deny any involvement in this heinous act of vote rigging. We do not condone such behavior.

So the Non Event Lads are still here Gutted!

So now that its not hans!!!

Who is it?

I am intrigued!

My issue is that Jahangir Khan missed out on the wild card selection due to this vote rigging. I mentioned it at the time and then again during the Lebron second round but unfortunately my warnings were ignored.

Hibbz wrote:My issue is that Jahangir Khan missed out on the wild card selection due to this vote rigging. I mentioned it at the time and then again during the Lebron second round but unfortunately my warnings were ignored.

I'll second that and have also mentioned it a couple of times. They were even in the voting in the wildcard round then suddenly Lebron James ran away with it. In the 2nd Round at one point Lebron James had 2 votes compared to 25ish for Edwards but in the final standings Edwards almost got caught!

Something has to be done about this surely?

Jordan wins for me.

mystiroakey wrote:So now that its not hans!!!

Who is it?

I am intrigued!

Oh it is him.
What's he's done is gone to another location, then created numerous multi-IDs in with that ISP code and voted.
So the 'Spaghetti-Hans' poster hasn't got any matching IDs attached to it, but the other ones are matching with each other. So he doesn't get banned, no one knows how many votes were actually rigged, and no one is liable.

Quite a neat trick if you think about it.
If it wasn't blindingly obvious.

Is there a way that the mods can stop anyone voting who hasn't reached a certain amount of posts? Would probably end any duplicate accounts to vote.

Na it would be bad for the site as genuine "lurker"posters who were intrigued and wanted to join in would be denied the opportunity.

Very high voter turnout nearly cracked the ton??????

It Must Be Love wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:So now that its not hans!!!

Who is it?

I am intrigued!

Oh it is him.
What's he's done is gone to another location, then created numerous multi-IDs in with that ISP code and voted.
So the 'Spaghetti-Hans' poster hasn't got any matching IDs attached to it, but the other ones are matching with each other. So he doesn't get banned, no one knows how many votes were actually rigged, and no one is liable.

Quite a neat trick if you think about it.
If it wasn't blindingly obvious.

yeah i suppose you could even just logmein to your office or something!!!

what a bunch of saddos who create different accounts just to rig a voting thread, some people need to get a life. if this carries on we may as well stop the so far excellent series

there's no way Jordan is worthy of beating srr, he's up there as one of the greatest ever basketballers, but like most american sports there not worthy of the real mass worldwide accolades as only america play them.

Sorry but way more people on this planet play basketball than box, its totally a global sport, as participation sports the two aren't even remotely comparable.
Even on this board Id imagine most people have played basketball and very few have boxed, and that's in the UK where basketball isn't as popular as it is on dozens of other countries.

Diggers wrote:Sorry but way more people on this planet play basketball than box, its totally a global sport, as participation sports the two aren't even remotely comparable.
Even on this board Id imagine most people have played basketball and very few have boxed, and that's in the UK where basketball isn't as popular as it is on dozens of other countries.

you sure that was the case in SRR's day? i've sprinted.... occasionally does that mean iv'e participated in Olympic 100m, the main issue is were talking about elite sport and where it partakes, theres probably more badminton players than most in this country doesn't mean the elite are up there with pele, bradmans etc. boxing is fought at an elite level all around the world, basketball has been only ever played in the usa, there have been recently more recruits coming from overseas but even still the talent pool for elite basketball is nearly all from one country

Where do you get basketball has only been played in the states , there are leagues all over the world, its huge. Sure the NBA is the big league like the PGA in golf but the sport is huge in Brazil, China, partly because they can fit courts all over the place.
Every school I know in England has a basketball court and team, none I know have a boxing ring. Just Google any stats you like for how many people play basketball regularly , I think you'll be very surprised.
Boxing is massive to watch but low participation , we are told it was far more popular in SRR's day which is fair enough but then you have the while question of how professional people took it...not to mention the amount if fight fixing that went on and how much the mob had an influence on boxing.

Back in Robinsons day the sport was taken very seriously hence why so many great fighters were around at the time. Participation is about those who take it seriously not about those who mess about at school now and then.

Major boxing nations include America, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, Puerto Rico, Australia, The Uk, Thailand, Japan, Phillipines, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Cuba. It also has very high levels of participation in africa in countries like Ghana and South Africa. Now how many major basketball nations are there? America and not a lot else. The worlds two highest paid sportsmen are both boxers, one is American and the other is from the Phillipines, yeah it's a really low participation sport

Err, what has the highest paid part got to do with participation , nothing. Here's the thing, people like to see other people beat each other up , strewth a bunch of sad cases even pay to see people pretend to fight on WWF....however and here's the rub, not many people like getting beaten up.
I've seen the polls on the boxing board, yes the actual boxing board full of boxing fanatics , and even on there only a few have ever stepped in a ring though I gather several like to pretend they have.
Also haven't seen anyone on here address the issue with mob involvement with boxing back in Robinsons day.

There was a level of mob involvement but such things didn't affect the great black fighters of the day, many of whom refused to throw fights notably Burley. The BMR did not get any title shots because they refused it.

Other than America what major basketballing nations are there, not those with a league but those who have had an impact on the sport.

Burley who Robinson never fought. Another flaw with boxing, in what other sport could PBF and Manny avoid each other ? It's like Coe and Ovett never having raced, a farce.
Any nation is going to struggle to take on America at a sport they take seriously , they are the premier sporting superpower and basketball is their game. Most of the worlds best players go to the NBA but there are leagues in just about every country in the world.
I'd estimate very conservatively that the ratio of people playing basketball to those who box is at the very least 100:1 and probably way way higher.
Sorry I love my boxing, can't wait for Frampton Martinez tonight, but its delusional to think they are of a similar participation level.

Or you could answer the question I posed, how many countries take Basketball seriously and have had an impact on the sport?

The Burley and Robinson thing isn't really like the Mayweather and Pacquiao case at all, there was a tiny window of opportunity for the fight to happen and it's in hindsight that it's been made into a big thing.

There are roughly 18,000 currently professional boxers, are you trying to suggest that there are 1.8mil currently professional basktetball players because I actually thought there was approximately 10,000.

Where did I say about playing the game professionally ? We, or I, am talking about how many people on the planet play a sport, that's what creates the talent pool. I do d both your figures for the pros dubious but Ill take your word for it , but I'm talking about grass roots.
I've no idea why you are so wrapped up about the achievements of other countries, the USA is totally dominant , I've explained why in a previous thread, its their sport, they have the best league and the best system to produce players. That doesn't alter the fact the game is played around the world pretty much in every country.
You haven't I noticed addressed the fact that on your own board a mere handful have ever boxed.

The impact and representation of other countries is hugely important into the globalisation of a sport, it's not merely good enough to say some guys play basketball at a semi decent level in these countries. It being a major sport in those countries is what makes it global, as far as participation goes, there are a lot more who take boxing seriously than they do basketball.

Sport is competitive not just a muck around on the playground.

OK, so name one country where boxing is the national sport ? That seems to be your point so prove it ?
Its the fact that there so little grass roots participation in most countries that enable champions to come from all over the globe. Little participation in lots of places.
Pretty much every kid in America plays basketball and dreams of going pro, that makes for a huge talent pool which makes America the power it is. Again boxing has nothing to begin to compare to that.

It's not about being a national sport but rather countries that take it very seriously, you seem to saying a lot with nothing to back it up. Mexico, Puerto Rico, America, Japan, Britain, Thailand, Cuba, Russia, Kazakstan and Ukraine have very high levels of participation in boxing. I would say it's the lack of knowledge and interest in the lower divisions over here that overshadows how big the sport is many parts of the world. There is a lot of crossover between Muay Thai and boxing with the little men.