Gloucester to Rescue England Attack ?

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Post by gregortree on Wed 20 Mar - 10:17

Gloucester is unfashionably West of the London axis and in some minds has a (wholly outdated) reputation for a grunt and grind club.
England need go forward, creativity and sheer speed in attack.
So ponder on what a selection from some of these young Gloucester lads could do for the future of the England attack:

8 Morgan - go forward
10 Burns - just magic
12 12trees - creative angles / distribution
13 Trinder - attack centre
11 May - angles,+ a great step, AND sheer finishing speed
AP player of the month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zNyZ1WR-a4

Without mentioning Sinbad (too late sadly) Sharples (out of favour)




Last edited by gregortree on Thu 21 Mar - 10:18; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : sp)

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 10:23

Looks great gregor.

I assume that these players have combined to make Glaws the premium attacking side in the premiership?

(OK that was a touch mean, but despite the apparent talent available Glaws attack has stuttered rather)

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Post by gregortree on Wed 20 Mar - 10:31

LT
selection from among, but not necessarily all of them.
Most likely 4

8 Morgan - in when fit.
10 Burns, no 2 / no1 with Farrell
11 May for Brown
12 12trees for Barritt (plus he has the right number in his name - so it is fate)

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 10:36

gregortree wrote:LT
selection from among, but not necessarily all of them.
Most likely 4

8 Morgan - in when fit.
10 Burns, no 2 / no1 with Farrell
11 May for Brown
12 12trees for Barritt (plus he has the right number in his name - so it is fate)

laughing


but yeah agree with much of that Morgan vs BillyV at No8.
Burns to push Farrell hard at 10.
36 would add something more at 12
May and Wade to be in with a shout of adding real pace on the wing.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Mar - 10:45

I think a lot of people overlook the obvious............ in order to defend you need all players really in that mode... in order to do the mid field breakdown slog and reslog that sometimes goes on on a bad weather day, you need all players tuned into that...and in order to do an all out attack, you need most of the 15 players in order to do it well and to keep it mischevious and confusing for the opposition.

I think there is too much emphasis on this weird(y) kinda notion that all a team needs is dedicated defenders (proven and doing their great work for 80 full minutes without a stop) and dedicated attackers (proven and doing their work for the full 80 too!)

Every side has good attacking players and good defenders..the coaching bit is the balance found.... and the choosing of players who have the balance in them. That's the tough bit! Wink

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Post by beshocked on Wed 20 Mar - 10:48

Gloucester is known as a grunt and grind club? I wouldn't say so.

You talk about the creativity and pace but Gloucester only have 30 tries and 1 try bonus point in the AP.

7th in the try scoring stakes. Joint 9th with London Irish in regards to try bonuses.

6th in tries conceded. 7th in points conceded.

Personally I would like to see some unsung players like Jamie Elliott of Saints and Elliot Daly of Wasps get some recognition.

IMO most of the Gloucester backline have potential but so far the hype surpasses their achievements.

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Post by gregortree on Wed 20 Mar - 10:51

LondonTiger wrote:Looks great gregor.

I assume that these players have combined to make Glaws the premium attacking side in the premiership?

(OK that was a touch mean, but despite the apparent talent available Glaws attack has stuttered rather)

LT, now, now don't be mean.
Glaws relative AP weakness seems to be up front, paradoxically given their historic 'rep' as a forwards style club.
Morgan the only decent England qualified forward, plus Big Jim, who is Scots qualified being from Swindon.
Behind the pack there is real attacking speed and talent (English qualified).
These do not see enough of the ball in the AP, but are often brilliant on the ball it does get.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 20 Mar - 10:51

I agree that there is some great tallent at Glouces at the mo.

I'd love to see an England back line like this -

Youngs
Freddie Burns
May
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Wade
Brown

Think that would tear teams apart - and scare the poopie out of them. Wouldnt know where the attack was coming from.


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Post by geoff998rugby on Wed 20 Mar - 10:59

Didn't I read somewhere Burns was the worst tackler in the Aviva - worse even than Humphreys.

Defence counts as well

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Post by gregortree on Wed 20 Mar - 11:02

Burns is in the England squad.
Give him a go for more than the ~ 15 minutes he has had so far, then assess him.

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Post by beshocked on Wed 20 Mar - 11:15

Geoff you are indeed correct. Burns is a poor tackler but Humphreys is worse.

AP stats


Freddie Burns

Tackles made - 54
Tackles missed - 21

Ian Humphreys

Tackles made - 45
Tackles missed - 21


Burns does have good attacking stats though like 23 defenders beaten and 7 line breaks.

Guess who probably the best tackling fly half in the AP has been?

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Post by geoff998rugby on Wed 20 Mar - 11:31

Thanks for that.

At International level a fly half would misses 21 of 75 tackles would be crucified.

He needs to address that or he will never be an International 10.
It is the reason Ireland never considered Humphreys

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Post by Bathman_in_London on Wed 20 Mar - 11:38

Despite his tackling issues, I do think that Burns will be fighting it out with Farrell in the coming years for the 10 slot.

Attacking slightly lightweight vs solid tackling and kicking. Which do you think Stuart Barnes will lobby for?!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 11:50

I think some of those players should defo be looked at in Argentina.

Twelvetrees is the obvious one. Barritt has been a dependable soldier in the trenches for Lancaster since his reign started...but he's too defensive. He offers too little on an offensive angle.
And it must be noted Twelvetrees tackling is very strong aswell...AND wasnt he one the highest turnovers in the prem...not bad for "an attacking" 12.

Wade (wasps) and May are also two who must be checked out...but i would like to see a skilled speedster on one side and maybe a bit more of a flying powerhouse on the other...just to give options.

Trinder is an interesting one...we seem to have an abundance on young 13's coming through. JJ, Daly, Trinder etc not to mention Tuilagi. However i think a dark horse could be Tomkins...keep an eye on him getting gametime in Argentina.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 12:00

I reckon Tomkins will end up at 12 for Sarries and England - unless his brother starts playing union as he is so much better.

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Post by HongKongCherry on Wed 20 Mar - 12:08

Gregor, do you mind?! They should firmly stay where they belong and not be ruined and injured by England! Wink

If you're going to analyse stats you have to take some context into account, namely the team playing a completely different style under Davies than we've had before; some pretty hefty injury numbers that account for continuity, etc. Ultimately, the Glaws backs possess more creativity than the England backs of which I am in no doubt. However, they do not have some of their other strengths. Trinder is very fast and can actually pass the ball, whereas Tuilagi is somewhat slower, incapable of passing but can butcher opportunities like no one else! Slightly tongue in cheek, but even with my criticisms of Tuilagi he is a much better player than Trinder.

For me Morgan and 36 should be the definite starters. Burns had a dip in form prior to his injury, so at present would deserve no more than a bench place. May is actually a LW, which discounts him from playing despite his ability to play at full back! But he should start to get a look in soon and should definitely play against Argentina. I'd have Trinder behind the likes of Daly, Lowe and Joseph at the moment. Sinbad is of course still the best English winger, even on crutches, but he isn't going to ever play for England again and has already confirmed he would turn down any approach. The real bolter is Dan Robson. He's not ready yet to challenge Youngs or Care, but if he carries on the way he is give it a year and he'll be on the verge of breaking into the squad.
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Post by gregortree on Wed 20 Mar - 12:16

HKC
pretty much agree, and thanks for your more detailed analysis.
I've been very impressed with Robson this season, another one who could well make international in due course. It is quite plausible to imagine up to 4 Glaws players in England 8 - 14 shirt range in the near future.

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Post by beshocked on Wed 20 Mar - 12:19

Geordiefalcon you say Twelvetrees is a good tackler.

He's alright but not as good as Barritt.

Twelvetrees tackle stats - AP

Tackles made - 98
Tackles missed - 15

Barritt

Tackles made - 69
Tackles missed - 3

The hilarious stat is that Barritt has more clean breaks than Twelvetrees in less matches. 5 in 8 matches vs 3 in 13 matches.

Yes indeed you are correct geordiefalcon 19 turnovers conceded by 36!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 12:31

Ah what do stats mean Wink Erm


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Post by HongKongCherry on Wed 20 Mar - 12:58

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon you say Twelvetrees is a good tackler.

He's alright but not as good as Barritt.

Twelvetrees tackle stats - AP

Tackles made - 98
Tackles missed - 15

Barritt

Tackles made - 69
Tackles missed - 3

The hilarious stat is that Barritt has more clean breaks than Twelvetrees in less matches. 5 in 8 matches vs 3 in 13 matches.

Yes indeed you are correct geordiefalcon 19 turnovers conceded by 36!

A turnover conceded includes kicks that don't make touch. As 36 acts as a 1st receiver regularly, this will take into account the various garryowens he puts in, etc, so again stats need to be taken into context
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Post by Bathman_in_London on Wed 20 Mar - 14:12

Is that true? Is so whoever complies these things should change it so there is a difference made between losing the ball in contact and a kick.

Shows up the weakness of looking at stats on their own I suppose...

Robson looks like a really handy player. I think I'm right in saying that Cook (on the bath books) kept him out of the 9 shirt for the u20's, but he is certainly looking as if he has more potential now.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 14:31

Bathman_in_London wrote:Robson looks like a really handy player. I think I'm right in saying that Cook (on the bath books) kept him out of the 9 shirt for the u20's, but he is certainly looking as if he has more potential now.

Robson certainly started at least 2 of the JWC matches last summer. From memory his running was a threat but his passing was not great.

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Post by HongKongCherry on Wed 20 Mar - 15:07

Robson is quite like a gallic half back and can play 9 and 10. He did play 10 for a number of u20 games, but his long term focus has always been 9. His passing has improved immensely in the last year, as i fully agree he used to be pretty awful. However, his service is now decent and he creates good quick ball for us. He is a real threat with ball in hand, which ties up more defenders around the ruck, so he does seem to get our back line going a bit more.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 15:16

Wasnt Ben Youngs a FH aswell...who was moved to 9.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 15:20

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wasnt Ben Youngs a FH aswell...who was moved to 9.

He was, though not at England age group level I think. Joe Simpson has played at 10 as a kid as well

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 15:22

Team that got thumped in 2008 JWC final:

England: Noah Cato (Saracens); Mark Odejobi (London Wasps), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Miles Benjamin (Worcester Warriors), Alex Goode (Saracens), Joe Simpson (London Wasps); Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby), Joe Gray (Northampton Saints), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Ben Thomas (Saracens), Gregor Gillanders (Leicester Tigers), Jon Fisher (London Irish), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie), Hugo Ellis (London Wasps, captain). Replacements: Scott Freer (Leeds Carnegie), Billy Moss (Bath Rugby), Scott Hobson (Cornish Pirates), Matthew Cox (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons), Seb Stegmann (Harlequins).

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 15:24

So only Corbs and Ben Youngs of them has progressed to being 1st choice in the full senior set up....pretty poor going really.

But ive explained my thought on the other golden generation thread.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 20 Mar - 15:28

Slightly skewed figures for the 36/Barritt debate and in fact any debate between Glos and a top four sides players.

Gloucester aren't in the top four, as a team they haven't played as well so individually their stats will not look as good as the stats from a player in a team who are comfortably better then them.


There is no denying the fact that a few of the Glos backs are individually some of the best attacking threats around.

Gloucester are a very young side trying to find their way with a style which frankly I love to watch. I hope it comes good and we see a lot more of their players as they have a lot of potential to give to the National side.

At the moment I'd only look at May, 36 and Morgan though.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 15:29

2009 Semi final winning team:

England U20: Tom Homer (London Irish); George Lowe (Harlequins), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby); Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers); Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), James Clark (London Irish), Bob Baker (London Wasps), Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors), James Gaskell (Sale Sharks), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt), Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks). Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens) for J Clark 33, Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) for Baker 56, Jack Cobden (Leicester Tigers) for Sharples 59. Not used: Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby), Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby), Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby), Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons).



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Post by yappysnap on Wed 20 Mar - 15:32

HongKongCherry wrote:Robson is quite like a gallic half back and can play 9 and 10. He did play 10 for a number of u20 games, but his long term focus has always been 9. His passing has improved immensely in the last year, as i fully agree he used to be pretty awful. However, his service is now decent and he creates good quick ball for us. He is a real threat with ball in hand, which ties up more defenders around the ruck, so he does seem to get our back line going a bit more.

I'd stick with Youngs and Care to be honest. Not just because i'm biased, although I am massively. But that every season we have a new flash in the pan boy wonder at 9 who's faster and a better passer then any one else who then has a very poor season after that. We don't need any new young 9's in the International set up, what we need is for the two that we have to get a shed load of caps and experience and really learn to grab a game by the throat and throttle the frickin life out of it. And then stamp on it afterwards.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 15:38

Danny Care turned 26 in January, while Youngs is 23 (birthday in September). Both could still be duking it out come RWC 2019.

We need these two to keep playing as well as they can and make it damned difficult for anyone else to get a look in.

Then all we need to do is have a discernible attacking plan and ask the SHs to execute it. Both have excellent running games, but in general that has only been seen from whoever came of the bench. It seems that the tactic being imposed on the SH is to kick the ball and play for territory.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 15:39

6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints),
7 Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt),
8 Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Dear me theres some physicality and aggression in THAT back row

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 15:41

GeordieFalcon wrote:6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints),
7 Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt),
8 Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Dear me theres some physicality and aggression in THAT back row

5) James Gaskell


A combative back row was needed.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 20 Mar - 15:45

Never understood the love affair with Gaskell

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 20 Mar - 15:53

Yeah good point LT

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Post by beshocked on Wed 20 Mar - 16:14

I don't see why either B.Youngs or Care should automatically be guaranteed the England 9 shirt. Why should they get special treatment?

Londontiger there's more to a scrum half than just having a good running game. Both Care and Youngs are obviously good in that area but it's the core areas of game management,decision making and actually generating quick ball where they can go missing.

Of the two Youngs has shown to some extent in the 6 nations he has more control and can adapt more than Care.



A scrum half who is different to both Care and Youngs' style would be refreshing in my opinion.

If Robson shows he is a better and quicker passer than Youngs and Care then why not give him a go?

Equally in the future Ben Spencer might emerge as a contender too.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 20 Mar - 16:20

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints),
7 Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie, capt),
8 Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks).

Dear me theres some physicality and aggression in THAT back row

5) James Gaskell


A combative back row was needed.

Laugh

So. True.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 20 Mar - 16:26

beshocked wrote:I don't see why either B.Youngs or Care should automatically be guaranteed the England 9 shirt. Why should they get special treatment?

Not sure anyone thinks they should be guaranteed. Just right now they are clearly better than the alternatives and are still fairly young. So it can be only good if they keep pushing each other hard (ala Dawson/Bracken) and even better if someone else can come along and show they deserve the shirt instead.

I hope they can improve and I really hope that they are not tied to a conservative gameplan.


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Post by HongKongCherry on Thu 21 Mar - 9:01

In the Times today there is an article which explains Jonny May is faster than Usain Bolt over 40 metres! This is especially impressive when you think the comparison is made from May running on grass in studs and Bolt on an Olympic running track in spikes!
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Post by gregortree on Thu 21 Mar - 9:08

OK

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Post by beshocked on Thu 21 Mar - 9:50

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:I don't see why either B.Youngs or Care should automatically be guaranteed the England 9 shirt. Why should they get special treatment?

Not sure anyone thinks they should be guaranteed. Just right now they are clearly better than the alternatives and are still fairly young. So it can be only good if they keep pushing each other hard (ala Dawson/Bracken) and even better if someone else can come along and show they deserve the shirt instead.

I hope they can improve and I really hope that they are not tied to a conservative gameplan.


They are in pole position currently and deservedly so but I don't think either as good as Dawson or Bracken were. If they can become as good as those two I will be very happy.

Tied to a conservative gameplan? A player should be able to adapt and vary his game according to circumstances.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 21 Mar - 9:56

The big ? over Care and Youngs is their consitency at times. Both seem to blow hot and cold a little.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 21 Mar - 9:59

I agree with that GF. I was so excited to see what Care could do against Italy, but was supremely disappointed.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 21 Mar - 10:12

Eddie
I would also go as far as to say if a player came along who was consitently good...he doesnt have to be brilliant then poor...just solid consistent good games doing the basics well , then he would leap over Care and Youngs in the order. But there doesnt seem to be many of those on the horizon from what i can see.

But then i didnt realise Youngs was only 23...seems to have been around for donkeys.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 21 Mar - 10:14

Yeh, especially in a position such as scrum half. I'd take a good, level, reliable pass over flair any day to be honest. Care's passing was very poor against Italy.

We are in a lucky position though, in that on their day, both are world class.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar - 10:15

beshocked wrote:They are in pole position currently and deservedly so but I don't think either as good as Dawson or Bracken were. If they can become as good as those two I will be very happy.

Tied to a conservative gameplan? A player should be able to adapt and vary his game according to circumstances.

You truly believe that if a coaching team spends all week getting the team to practice certain tactics and ways of playing that one player will suddenley be in a position to change all that?

It is obvious that England have practised certain things, and have certain patterns. For either scrum half to suddenly do something unexpected they need to have faith that their team-mates will be on the same wavelength - otherwise it just leads to disaster.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 21 Mar - 10:19

bluestonevedder I think you are throwing around the world class tag around a little lightly!

When did in your opinion Care last put in a world class performance?

Both look good from the bench against tiring defences but it's the game management I would like to see more of.

Youngs has more potential IMO to improve his game management but still needs work.

Dare I say it but the flanker who wears 9 for Wales seems to show more consistency than Youngs and Care!

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Post by beshocked on Thu 21 Mar - 10:26

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:They are in pole position currently and deservedly so but I don't think either as good as Dawson or Bracken were. If they can become as good as those two I will be very happy.

Tied to a conservative gameplan? A player should be able to adapt and vary his game according to circumstances.

You truly believe that if a coaching team spends all week getting the team to practice certain tactics and ways of playing that one player will suddenley be in a position to change all that?

It is obvious that England have practised certain things, and have certain patterns. For either scrum half to suddenly do something unexpected they need to have faith that their team-mates will be on the same wavelength - otherwise it just leads to disaster.

I expect the players and coaches to work together to make a effective gameplan. If Youngs and Care can't adapt then they aren't as good as people like to think. People say how good Youngs and Care are because they can do the flashy breaks but it's their basic skills and decision making that need to be honed.

It's not Care and Youngs' fault. It's the gameplan is it?


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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar - 10:27

GeordieFalcon wrote:But then i didnt realise Youngs was only 23...seems to have been around for donkeys.

Made hi stigers debut in 2007 against Argentina.

Coming off the bench against Bristol was then the youngest player to appear in the premiership. Came of the bench in the GP final thrashing of Glaws and was going to be on the bench for the 2007 HEC final but Wasps were within the rules when appealing against the emergency registration given by ERC (Ian humphreys was SH cover on the bench in th eend). All of this was when he was 17.

Was a replacement in the 2008 JWC final, and started in the 2009 JWC final. Harry Ellis injury woes saw him getting regular game time and he was promoted to the full england squad for the 2010 6Ns (still 20). Came off the bench twice in that Championship and got his first start in the second test in Aus that year winning MotM.

So yeah has been a round a while, but started young.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 21 Mar - 10:29

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder I think you are throwing around the world class tag around a little lightly!

When did in your opinion Care last put in a world class performance?

Both look good from the bench against tiring defences but it's the game management I would like to see more of.

Youngs has more potential IMO to improve his game management but still needs work.

Dare I say it but the flanker who wears 9 for Wales seems to show more consistency than Youngs and Care!

Maybe you're right about the world class tag. My impression of Care I have to admit, comes more from his premiership performances, which I know doesn't translate to the international stage.

Youngs though, I believe is world class on his day. He has a solid pass, and at most times has good composure.

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