2012/13 Premier League discussion thread Part 5

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Post by Guest on Sun 14 Apr 2013, 1:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

The discussion rages on! The end is nigh folks..


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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:08 pm

Sorry I forgot Modric has been tearing it up for Madrid Rolling Eyes
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:21 pm

Come on TSJ, I know you've got a little Utd bias, but lets not be silly now
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:25 pm

I think Carrick is a good steady performer who's benefited from playing under a great manager in a PL diminishing in quality.

He must've enjoyed his time at Spurs and bettered himself as a player surely? Hence a big money move to United.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:32 pm

FreekShow wrote:I think Carrick is a good steady performer who's benefited from playing under a great manager in a PL diminishing in quality.

I'd agree with that statement.
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:32 pm

These player of the year awards lost all credibility for me in 1999 when Man Utd won the treble and David Ginola won the gong. In no way whatsoever was Ginola better than Roy Keane that season.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:38 pm

The problem with Carrick is that for a while he was genuinely underrated, and then when people noticed this he's become massively overrated. He's okay, his passing ability is alright, it's not world class and he has just an average of 1.1 key passes a game which shows that he's making simple passes to keep the tempo going.

The problem is he does very little defensively or going forward, while some may point to Busquets as an example of a similar player, the play in La Liga is very different to the play in the Premier League, when teams break very fast Carrick isn't great at breaking up play or at playing killer balls to hit teams on the break. He has a very simple game, he's good at doing that but I don't think he can be considered one of the best players in the league at all.

On another note, I've seen suggestions that the PFA should introduce a third category of "Newcomer Award" for those who have arrived from a foreign league. I think that would be a good move, other leagues have similar awards and it will give a nod to those who join the league and adapt very well. So for example, the likes of Benteke, Vertonghen, Hazard, Natasatic, Michu could be up for it.

The worst inclusion is Danny Welbeck who has actually been pretty poor this year and it's baffling how he manages to continue to be chosen in so many United games, selected for England so often and now been included in this shortlist. 2 goals in 35 games for a forward is woeful, even if he is selected out wide it's awful.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:45 pm

Crimey wrote:On another note, I've seen suggestions that the PFA should introduce a third category of "Newcomer Award" for those who have arrived from a foreign league. I think that would be a good move, other leagues have similar awards and it will give a nod to those who join the league and adapt very well. So for example, the likes of Benteke, Vertonghen, Hazard, Natasatic, Michu could be up for it.

This would be a very good idea and quite a good award actually.

Crimey wrote:The worst inclusion is Danny Welbeck who has actually been pretty poor this year and it's baffling how he manages to continue to be chosen in so many United games, selected for England so often and now been included in this shortlist. 2 goals in 35 games for a forward is woeful, even if he is selected out wide it's awful.

If ever a player needed a loan move, it would be Welbeck
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:48 pm

Don't they have newcomer awards in other countries or did I dream that?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:48 pm

Welbeck doesnt really play as a forward by the traditional sense. I really like him, I dont know how hes only scored 2 this year as generally he has good attributes in all striking departments, I would imagine its because he is such a selfless team player. His link play, intelligent movement and flexibility within gameplay and positional play make him very valuable. If he works on technique he will become a very good player. He scored and didnt look out of place against Real Madrid at the Bernabeu. Hes not the finished article, but theres a reason hes being picked ahead of Rooney a good few times and for England.


On Carrick, I don't think the PL has a better player doing that job. He's better than Arteta, better than Mikel, better than Barry, vastly better than Allen or Lucas, and the list goes on.

You've severely underrated his passing ability Crime, severely. He has arguably the best vision of any English midfielder. Lampard plays a fraction of the quick, raking passes Carrick does but gets lauded for it. Carrick spreads play with both feet and does it with dallying. He can also pick some sublime passes. The pace of his passing is pretty much 100% correct too. He also generally plays a pretty solo role. When United get broke on they usually have anyone who is meant to be alongside Carrick actually sitting further upfield. The reason he probably never stands out defensively is because hes usually in the right place and nothing really happens because of it, not much of a MOTD highlight. Theres not a team in the league I wouldnt pick him in, based on this season and many before. That deserves recognition for me

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:50 pm

I'm not too biased Olly, even I don't know how Welbeck made that list Laugh The only time I've seen him play well this season was against Madrid for a few minutes and, of course, that wasn't even in the league!!
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:52 pm

I wish Welbeck and Sturridge were one player, they match the attributes the other seems to lack, but I get the feeling one will improve the side lacking and the other will always be frustrating

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:53 pm

I'd take Arteta over Carrick everyday of the week personally. Being better than Barry, Mikel and Allen is no real achievement, as all are pants.

Welbeck actually only has 1 league goal this year. How on earth is he on that list?!?!?!?!? #headsgone
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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:57 pm

Arteta over Carrick is simply madness, there's a reason he's been getting such high praise this season, you don't become an integral midfielder set on winning a 5th league title in 7 years without being pretty good.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:57 pm

FreekShow wrote:Don't they have newcomer awards in other countries or did I dream that?

They do, hence why I said:
Crimey wrote:other leagues have similar awards

Cool

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:Welbeck doesn't really play as a forward by the traditional sense. I really like him, I don't know how he's only scored 2 this year as generally he has good attributes in all striking departments, I would imagine its because he is such a selfless team player.

I imagine it's because he runs around like a headless chicken, has an absolutely atrocious first touch and can't finish. He's the very definition of a player who relies on his physical ability ahead of a footballing brain.

[quote"chris.wilkerson13"]You've severely underrated his passing ability Crime, severely. He has arguably the best vision of any English midfielder.[/quote]

I imagine if he was as good a passer as you say he'd have more than 1.1 key passes a game on average. Thats not assists, that's just a key pass, a pass that leads to a goal, a pass that breaks a team down or gets through the defence. He only has 4 assists this year in the league. That's not good enough for a player who supposed to be a world class player. He's a player that was underrated, but is now very much the most overrated player in the league.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:58 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Arteta over Carrick is simply madness, there's a reason he's been getting such high praise this season, you don't become an integral midfielder set on winning a 5th league title in 7 years without being pretty good.

The reason being that he was underrated and people have overcompensated by signing the praises of a fairly average midfielder. He doesn't offer anywhere near enough to the side to justify the praise he gets.

You could easily slot Arteta into that role and he'd do just as well as Carrick.

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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 6:59 pm

Welbeck is a donkey
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:01 pm

Crimey wrote:
FreekShow wrote:Don't they have newcomer awards in other countries or did I dream that?

They do, hence why I said:
Crimey wrote:other leagues have similar awards

Cool


Apologies Crimey. Missed that Laugh

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:02 pm

Crimey wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Arteta over Carrick is simply madness, there's a reason he's been getting such high praise this season, you don't become an integral midfielder set on winning a 5th league title in 7 years without being pretty good.

The reason being that he was underrated and people have overcompensated by signing the praises of a fairly average midfielder. He doesn't offer anywhere near enough to the side to justify the praise he gets.

You could easily slot Arteta into that role and he'd do just as well as Carrick.

I'll take the word and opinion of Fergie, he seems to know a thing or two about football.

You wouldn't be able to put Arteta into that role because he doesn't read the game anywhere near as well.

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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:09 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
Crimey wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Arteta over Carrick is simply madness, there's a reason he's been getting such high praise this season, you don't become an integral midfielder set on winning a 5th league title in 7 years without being pretty good.

The reason being that he was underrated and people have overcompensated by signing the praises of a fairly average midfielder. He doesn't offer anywhere near enough to the side to justify the praise he gets.

You could easily slot Arteta into that role and he'd do just as well as Carrick.

I'll take the word and opinion of Fergie, he seems to know a thing or two about football.

You wouldn't be able to put Arteta into that role because he doesn't read the game anywhere near as well.

Well that settles the argument doesnt it Laugh
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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:09 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
Crimey wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Arteta over Carrick is simply madness, there's a reason he's been getting such high praise this season, you don't become an integral midfielder set on winning a 5th league title in 7 years without being pretty good.

The reason being that he was underrated and people have overcompensated by signing the praises of a fairly average midfielder. He doesn't offer anywhere near enough to the side to justify the praise he gets.

You could easily slot Arteta into that role and he'd do just as well as Carrick.

I'll take the word and opinion of Fergie, he seems to know a thing or two about football.

You wouldn't be able to put Arteta into that role because he doesn't read the game anywhere near as well.

Arteta (2.8) actually makes, on average, more interceptions per game than Carrick (2.2) does.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:10 pm

The argument he must be great because Fergie picks him every game is sort of nullified by the fact his other options at that position are Anderson and near 40 year old Ryan Giggs...

He's a decent player who's had a good season. But lets not make him out to be something he's not. Which has been shown at International level where he has had little/no impact
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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:13 pm

His other options include being able to buy a replacement which he hasn't tried to do for the past 7 years while international performances have no bearing on the PFA awards as far as i'm concerned. If you play for a weak team you're very rarely going to shine.

I judge a players worth by using my eyes not by using statistics.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:22 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I judge a players worth by using my eyes not by using statistics.

I'm sorry but if you're going to make outlandish claims that Carrick reads the game better than Arteta then you better have some evidence to back it up!

Arteta has more tackles per game than Carrick. 3.2 - 2.8
Arteta has more goals than Carrick. 6 - 1 (although I admit that Arteta will be boosted by penalties)
Arteta has less key passes. 0.8 - 1.1 (but he's not as important for Arsenal in that respect as Carrick should be for United.)
Arteta has more passes per game. 84 - 76.3
A better pass successfulness rate 92.4% - 88.1%
Near equal accurate long balls. Arteta (5.7) - Carrick (5.8)
Better accurate through balls per game. 0.2 - 0.1

I think the statistics are heavily in favour of Arteta who I'm sure could easily fulfill the role of Carrick in that side as he's playing better in a worse side. Offering more defensively than Carrick, and is a better reader of the game and passer than Carrick.

http://www.whoscored.com/Players/1443/
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/2115

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:28 pm

Like I said I prefer to actually watch them play and judge my opinions on that.

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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:29 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Like I said I prefer to actually watch them play and judge my opinions on that.

Thats your prerogative but you cant base an argument off it.
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Post by JamesLincs on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:29 pm

i think it helps arteta that arsenal have a better midfield than united.

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Post by Imperial Ghosty on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:32 pm

GSC wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Like I said I prefer to actually watch them play and judge my opinions on that.

Thats your prerogative but you cant base an argument off it.

Ultimately it's all that matters, do you think scouts and managers recommend players based on stats or do they watch them to gauge an idea of their ability.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:38 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
GSC wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Like I said I prefer to actually watch them play and judge my opinions on that.

Thats your prerogative but you cant base an argument off it.

Ultimately it's all that matters, do you think scouts and managers recommend players based on stats or do they watch them to gauge an idea of their ability.

More and more managers and scouts are starting to use stats to gauge the worth of signing a player.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:48 pm

That's why we get players like Gervinho in the league.
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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:51 pm

Yeah we need more Bebes
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Post by Stella on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:51 pm

Crimey wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:
GSC wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Like I said I prefer to actually watch them play and judge my opinions on that.

Thats your prerogative but you cant base an argument off it.

Ultimately it's all that matters, do you think scouts and managers recommend players based on stats or do they watch them to gauge an idea of their ability.

More and more managers and scouts are starting to use stats to gauge the worth of signing a player.

Ludicrous.
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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:52 pm

Amen.
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:54 pm

Is it as ludicrous as clubs signing talents off the strength of YouTube clips?


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Post by Stella on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:56 pm

FreekShow wrote:Is it as ludicrous as clubs signing talents off the strength of YouTube clips?


Indeed.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 7:57 pm

Reality is they'll use a combination of analysis and scout reports over a period of time to judge a player.

Well it'd be common sense too
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Post by Ent on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:14 pm

Carrick had been good this season, very good.

And this united team is Poopie for anyone who is saying he has got in on the back of being in a good team.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:15 pm

FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Not really. It was obvious from the offset that those two were special players. A bit late in the day for Carrick's bandwagon to get going.

Actually they werent sure Scholes couldn't get into the England team because Gerrard and Lampard were said to be better than him and there was the famous picture not that long ago saying the best players in the world plus Xavi

Carrick was quality for his first few years at Utd then after Rome seemed to lose his confidence

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Post by Stella on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:17 pm

Scholes had to make way for Lampard. He was quality forvEngland prior to playing left mid.
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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:18 pm

marty2086 wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Not really. It was obvious from the offset that those two were special players. A bit late in the day for Carrick's bandwagon to get going.

Actually they werent sure Scholes couldn't get into the England team because Gerrard and Lampard were said to be better than him and there was the famous picture not that long ago saying the best players in the world plus Xavi

Carrick was quality for his first few years at Utd then after Rome seemed to lose his confidence

Scholes won England caps way before Lamps and Gerrard did. Scholes was earning high praise as far back as 1997.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:20 pm

GSC wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Hahahaha. Xavi and Scholes actually offer something going forward, try again

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/michael-carrick-is-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/#.UXE026JGucY.twitter

Hows that for offering something going forward? More forward passes than anyone else in Europe you want to try again?

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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:20 pm

Stella wrote:Scholes had to make way for Lampard. He was quality forvEngland prior to playing left mid.

This. Scholes was unfairly shifted onto the left hand side during Euro 2004 (I believe?) and this prompted his international retirement.

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Post by Guest on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GSC wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Hahahaha. Xavi and Scholes actually offer something going forward, try again

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/michael-carrick-is-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/#.UXE026JGucY.twitter

Hows that for offering something going forward? More forward passes than anyone else in Europe you want to try again?

How many of them passes were routine 5 yarders? Stats do not tell the whole story.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:24 pm

FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Not really. It was obvious from the offset that those two were special players. A bit late in the day for Carrick's bandwagon to get going.

Actually they werent sure Scholes couldn't get into the England team because Gerrard and Lampard were said to be better than him and there was the famous picture not that long ago saying the best players in the world plus Xavi

Carrick was quality for his first few years at Utd then after Rome seemed to lose his confidence

Scholes won England caps way before Lamps and Gerrard did. Scholes was earning high praise as far back as 1997.

That may be because hes older than them!

Scholes was receiving praise then the world forgot about him, all of a sudden after a few years some random journo wrote an article saying hes pretty decent and the world and his uncle were saying how good he was the whole time he was better than those around him probably because he had Keane beside him winning the praise

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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:24 pm

FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GSC wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Hahahaha. Xavi and Scholes actually offer something going forward, try again

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/michael-carrick-is-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/#.UXE026JGucY.twitter

Hows that for offering something going forward? More forward passes than anyone else in Europe you want to try again?

How many of them passes were routine 5 yarders? Stats do not tell the whole story.

What a pointless statistic. A pass angled slightly in front of him counts
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:29 pm

GSC wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GSC wrote:
marty2086 wrote:All those dismissing Carrick really know nothing, I bet you did the same with Scholes and Xavi too before the bandwagon got rolling there

Carrick this season has been integral to Utd in the league

Hahahaha. Xavi and Scholes actually offer something going forward, try again

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/michael-carrick-is-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/#.UXE026JGucY.twitter

Hows that for offering something going forward? More forward passes than anyone else in Europe you want to try again?

How many of them passes were routine 5 yarders? Stats do not tell the whole story.

What a pointless statistic. A pass angled slightly in front of him counts

If you watched Barcelona under Guardiola or Utd back in the early part of the 21st Century thats how they opened teams up, you move the opposition about trying to find the openings

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Post by Stella on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:31 pm

Carrick is a wonderful short/mid range passer. Keeps it simple, and tbh, lacks mobility, but nobody passes it better in England.
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Post by GSC on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:34 pm

And your stats dont prove Carrick does that at all.

Or anything quite frankly
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:35 pm

stella hes a pretty good long range passer too when he needs to

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:38 pm

GSC wrote:And your stats dont prove Carrick does that at all.

Or anything quite frankly

well considering yo said he offers nothing going forward with more forward passes than anyone else would count as something

have you actually watched him this season at all? He moves in front of the defence and tries to cut the ball out and gets the team going forward, he dictates the pace of the game and moves the ball about

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Post by Stella on Fri 19 Apr 2013, 8:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:stella hes a pretty good long range passer too when he needs to

He is, however, loads of pro players can ping a 40 yard ball but not many can see a team mate from 10 yards away in a crowded midfield,
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