Who's the Best and Worst player you have seen ?

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Who's the Best and Worst player you have seen ? Empty Who's the Best and Worst player you have seen ?

Post by Kenny on Fri 10 May 2013, 11:22 pm

Seeing as the World Championship has finished but the debate still continues i thought we should have a different thread to discuss on .
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Post by Guest on Fri 10 May 2013, 11:50 pm

Regarding the best player I've seen - it's a real tough question to answer. I'll try and approach it from a few different angles.

Hendry is the most dominant player I've ever seen. I'm too young to remember much of Davis (when I say 'young' of course I mean in the mortal sense - of course as the emancipator I have existed in various forms for.. well.. lets just say a very long time). Hendry looked unbeatable for many years, particularly from 91 to about 93. Whether that was in part due to less competition is up for debate. I certainly think the standard in the early to mid nineties was not as high as the late nineties to mid noughties.

Hendry was also the best opening long red potter I've ever seen. The ball had to be tight on the balk cushion or you knew he'd pot something. He was also a fantastic break builder but perhaps the pockets were a bit more forgiving in his heydey. However Hendry was not a great tactical/safety player and for me that marks him down considerably.

The two best all rounders I've seen are Higgins and ROS. Some may wish to add Davis in this category. Out of the first two, at the top of their game, I would rate ROS just slightly higher than Higgins. Just a little bit more devastating when he's in amongst the balls.

So overall I think the best player I've ever seen (playing at their peak) has to be ROS. No weaknesses in his game. Fantastic long potter, great break builder, fantastic safety player. The only thing that lets him down is his temperament at times. But I'm considering peak performances and for me he's the best.

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Post by Guest on Fri 10 May 2013, 11:51 pm

The worst player I've ever seen has to be my housemate at uni.

But it didn't stop me beating him mercilessly Laugh

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Post by Kenny on Fri 10 May 2013, 11:59 pm

Back in the hayday of snooker i went to a Matchroom Mob exhibition night to watch the likes of Davis , White , Taylor , Griffiths , Foulds , Meo , Thorne it was a full nights snooker with each playing one or two games depending on who the crowd wanted to see most .

The best player on the night - Jimmy White ( i know it was an exhibition but he was fantastic potting everything in sight )

The worst player on the night - Neil Foulds who was just awful , he couldn't pot a ball to save his life that night
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Post by Guest on Sat 11 May 2013, 12:01 am

Didn't Neil Foulds have a major issue with the yips or nerves or something, such that he had to retire in the end?

Wasn't he like number three in the world for a quite a while?

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Post by Kenny on Sat 11 May 2013, 12:27 am

Yes he got to 3rd in the World , i know he was on beta blockers for a heart condition don't know if that caused the yips ?
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Post by Hibbz on Sat 11 May 2013, 11:06 am

Foulds was the first player I can remember with the power to screw back to baulk having attempted a long red and often played it as a "shot to nothing".

With regards to the OP I think if you have any of Hendry, White, Williams, Higgins, him, playing at the top of their game it would be very hard to separate them. I'd grudgingly have to say that he was probably the most breathtaking.

What separated them from each other and decided their level of success was the following.

Hendry - By a million miles was the best player ever under pressure. The only player I've ever seen who actually seemed to play better when the pressure increased. Higgins just about maintained his level, and the others were at best unpredictable.

Higgins - Won more matches when not playing at his best than any of the others because of his "nouse" and general matchplay skills.

I haven't included the golden nugget in my list as I genuinely don't believe he was as good as the others, the reason for his success in my opinion is that he maintained a very high standard without playing any breathtaking stuff but also without playing any really bad stuff. He also played some downright crap "top sixteen" players.

With regards to the worst player I can remember watching a session of Angles towards the end of his top sixteen stay when he couldn't pot a ball and Dene O'Kane always struck me as rubbish despite reaching a couple of WC QF's.

"Dis"honourable mentions for the likes of the Silver Fox David Taylor who fished around during the golden age without actually winning anything and Virgo who somehow won the UK Championship (I've just checked and apparently it was non-ranking then which may explain it) but made his fame and fortune on the back of some cringe worthy impressions.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 May 2013, 3:15 pm

Good post Hibbz,

Definitely agree re: Hendry being the best pressure player ever. I remember when he beat Mike Hallet 9-8 after being 8-1 down.

However, not in a million years would I include Jimmy White in that company. Good potter and break builder but not patch on Hendry or ROS or Higgins. Could hardly play a safety to save his life. Not great under pressure either. How can possibly include White but then dismiss Davis - the man who dominated him for much of his career.

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Post by The Special Juan on Sat 11 May 2013, 3:35 pm

Right, where to begin....

I've seen a lot of players that can all have a claim for the tag of the "best" but, for me, there are very few that have the all-round game required to be called the very best (I'm going to avoid using an abbreviation which is also a type of animal).

I'll start with him. I think Alex Higgins is the most naturally talented player to play the game because he's pulled off more "wow" shots than anyone I've ever seen. However, where he wins it for me is because instead of pulling off "wow" shots, he pulls off "wow" breaks. Alex has one memorable break (the one against Jimmy) but he has so many unbelievable breaks it's scary. I know Hendry has the most centuries out of anyone but I think he is the best break builder I've ever seen. An example of this is that throughout the whole championship, I only saw him miss one easy pot when he was in amongst the balls. That's frightening. He can never my "best player to ever play the game" because his temperament is (was?), quite frankly, rubbish. No one who walks out in the middle of a match deserves the title.

Stephen Hendry.... What can I say? The most titles, the most centuries, the most 147s (tied) and the most Triple Crowns (2). The machine was a machine and thrived on pressure. What I admire so much about Hendry is that he was the best and he knew it. It's very refreshing to see someone stampede around the table as if to say "I own this arena, just try and beat me". His break building was phenomenal, he could pot near enough anything on the table and although his game dropped off dramatically in the 00s (a combination of his cue being snapped and age, I think he peaked early in his career) he was making 147s into his 40s. Regardless of whether it was a weak era or not, I think at his peak he could dominate anyone, and I include him.

Remember Mark J Williams at his peak in the early 00s? This is a man who won the Triple Crown in a time with Higgins, Hendry and him all pretty much at their best, plus Ebdon, Doherty, Angles (ahem...) and Hunter all vying for titles. Although his peak was incredibly short, he was on another level to all those players at that time. Unfortunately for MJW, his century total (which should be higher than what it is considering he played loads of exhibition shots when a frame was over) and his trophy total won't be as high as his contemporaries but I hope in the years to come people remember what a superb player he was at that time. If you have a spare 10 minutes one day, look up his Crucible 147. It was phenomenal.

Finally, we come to my favourite player John Higgins MBE. He's the best all-round player ever to play the game in my opinion and when he is at his very best, he's the only man who can unquestionably compete with him at his best (I have proof, Masters 2006 final!!). John's safety play is the best I've ever seen. Add onto that his superb break building, great temperament and the ability to make more comebacks than Lazarus and you have one heck of a player. Although it breaks my heart to say it, why Higgins can't be considered as the best player ever is because he really should have won more titles than he has. He's "only" won 4 world titles but there were 8 years separating his first and second titles, plus he's won the Masters just twice and for someone of his calibre, I'm afraid that's not good enough.

I can't say much about Steve Davis because he was before my time, but he's definitely in the top 5 players ever.

For me, there is no "best player ever", but if you combined Higgins' safety, his break building, Hendry's mentality and ability to win and MJW's long potting you'd have the best player ever.

Worst player I've ever seen? That's easy; Rory McLeod. Go and watch him sometime and I guarantee you'll find him the most boring and useless player you've ever seen. I once saw him play Higgins at the World Championship and even the commentators were bored with him. I'll never forget Willie saying something along the lines of "he's quite happy to take those 7 points" when he played a safety shot even though there was a decent chance to make a frame winning break.
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Post by Guest on Sat 11 May 2013, 4:23 pm

I think the fact that so many people on here refer to him as him means he is unquestionably the best ever. It's like the Voldemorte thing. You couldn't say his name but you knew he was the most evil ever. Cool

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Post by Hibbz on Sat 11 May 2013, 5:07 pm

The reason I included White in my list Spermy was because in my opinion at his best he was easily as good as anyone ever.

Jimmy's downfall was that his best didn't occur all that often and never under pressure, and that his worst was far worse than the others because as you say his safety was poor so he had nothing to fall back on when his potting was off.

I wouldn't say Davis dominated White at all. No doubt Steve won more than he lost against Jimmy but part of that was down to White's early career recklessness. I've a feeling Steve was slightly intimidated by White's talent and most definitely his popularity. Hendry on the other hand..............

My reason for calling him, him is nothing to do with him it's because I can't stand all the fawning and attention he receives by the pundits as though he's the only person worth discussing. Not his fault at all.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 11 May 2013, 5:11 pm

Hibbz wrote:

My reason for calling him, him is nothing to do with him it's because I can't stand all the fawning and attention he receives by the pundits as though he's the only person worth discussing. Not his fault at all.

The reason for that is clear - there is no one else of note worthy of fawning over now in the game.
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Post by Guest on Sat 11 May 2013, 6:20 pm

Hibbz wrote:The reason I included White in my list Spermy was because in my opinion at his best he was easily as good as anyone ever.

Jimmy's downfall was that his best didn't occur all that often and never under pressure, and that his worst was far worse than the others because as you say his safety was poor so he had nothing to fall back on when his potting was off.

I wouldn't say Davis dominated White at all. No doubt Steve won more than he lost against Jimmy but part of that was down to White's early career recklessness. I've a feeling Steve was slightly intimidated by White's talent and most definitely his popularity. Hendry on the other hand..............

My reason for calling him, him is nothing to do with him it's because I can't stand all the fawning and attention he receives by the pundits as though he's the only person worth discussing. Not his fault at all.

So White, in your opinion is one of the best potters ever when at the top of his game. Probably true. But that still doesn't put him in the ROS, Hendry (a better potter than White), Williams (likewise), Higgins, Davis category - all of who could pot just as well as White at their respective bests' but would all wipe the floor with him in a tactical battle. After all, best potter does not necessarily mean best player. Personally, I don't think White is any better than Doherty, Murphy, Ebdon, etc all things considered. Basically 2nd/3rd tier in the GOAT stakes.

Oh by the way, I am the emancipator, lest you forget oh snivelling, grovelling minion.

From now on you may refer to me as your Lordship, which is one of my titles on the tennis board - Caledonian, son of Craig will attest to this.

Beware Oh minion Hibbz, do not invoke the wrath of the emancipator, for the price is a heavy one. You are forgiven for this misdemeanor; let it no happen again.

I may resort to using my freelance moderator emancipator powers.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 May 2013, 6:22 pm

And no nonsense from you either Kenny warning

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 11 May 2013, 6:24 pm

emancipator wrote:
Hibbz wrote:The reason I included White in my list Spermy was because in my opinion at his best he was easily as good as anyone ever.

Jimmy's downfall was that his best didn't occur all that often and never under pressure, and that his worst was far worse than the others because as you say his safety was poor so he had nothing to fall back on when his potting was off.

I wouldn't say Davis dominated White at all. No doubt Steve won more than he lost against Jimmy but part of that was down to White's early career recklessness. I've a feeling Steve was slightly intimidated by White's talent and most definitely his popularity. Hendry on the other hand..............

My reason for calling him, him is nothing to do with him it's because I can't stand all the fawning and attention he receives by the pundits as though he's the only person worth discussing. Not his fault at all.

So White, in your opinion is one of the best potters ever when at the top of his game. Probably true. But that still doesn't put him in the ROS, Hendry (a better potter than White), Williams (likewise), Higgins, Davis category - all of who could pot just as well as White at their respective bests' but would all wipe the floor with him in a tactical battle. After all, best potter does not necessarily mean best player. Personally, I don't think White is any better than Doherty, Murphy, Ebdon, etc all things considered. Basically 2nd/3rd tier in the GOAT stakes.

Oh by the way, I am the emancipator, lest you forget oh snivelling, grovelling minion.

From now on you may refer to me as your Lordship, which is one of my titles on the tennis board - Caledonian, son of Craig will attest to this.

Beware Oh minion Hibbz, do not invoke the wrath of the emancipator, for the price is a heavy one. You are forgiven for this misdemeanor; let it no happen again.

I may resort to using my freelance moderator emancipator powers.

ghost

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I know of a lot of titles (or is it names) emancipator has been called in the Tennis section. I cant relate them as I would be banned. laughing

PS Only joking emancipator.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 11 May 2013, 6:37 pm

As I see it Steve Davis raised the standard in the 1980's and was much the most consistent potter of the 1980's and was tactically a fabulous player as well. He had that dominance that all-time greats have.

Hendry came soon after in the 90's and raised the standard to a new level with both consistency, an attacking game, fabulous long balling potting and ice cold temperament that makes him the greatest of all-time as he ruled the roost at The Crucible twice winning the triple crown.

O'Sullivan holds the title of the most naturally-gifted player to ever play the game. His break-building and fearless potting has been bolstered in recet years by a far better tactical game that he calls on now to great effect as well. However, he has never had the total dominance and has he always had an iron mindset or dedication to the cause? No is what I would say. For that I would put him behind Hendry and Davis.

Honourable mentions to Mark J Williams and John Higgins and as far as non-world champions go then Jimmy White always springs to mind as the best.

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Post by Hibbz on Sat 11 May 2013, 7:59 pm

Given that you're concerned with movements aimed at procuring equality is it not a contradiction to want others to bow down at your feet Spermy?

ALL
things considered I'd happily say Doherty, Murphy (not Ebdon) were equal to if not better than Jimmy, my point was (at fear of repeating myself) that Jimmy's best was on a par with anyone's and for at least a two year period he and Hendry were pretty level with the exception of one match each year.

I'm slightly bemused that you've now become an expert on the merits of the Golden Nugget when previously stating you were too young to remember much of him and as such a large chunk of White's mercurial early exploits too.

xx

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