Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari

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Post by sikhlion on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:45 pm

In light of Alonso's frustrations at Ferrari, do Schumacher's achievements there seem even more impressive? Alonso is a great driver but for some reason he has not been able to achieve the same as Schumacher did at Ferrari. Why was Schumacher able to take the team from a midfield team to a championship winning one in a way that alonso has been unable to? Surely Ferrari are treating alonso as the number 1 driver, was it just that Schumacher was better at organising a team around himself, was it that he gave better feedback after testing or was it just luck?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:09 pm

I like to be consistent here and as I have banged my drum about Adrian Newey's influence on Red Bull then so when Schumacher was successful at Ferrari they had the designer Rory Byrne working on the car design. He has designed seven world title winning cars and after Newey is the most successful designer in the modern era. Byrne is no longer at Ferrari.
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Post by bogbrush on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:00 pm

It's really simple. Schumacher was the best driver of his era and the most professionally committed driver to the advancement of his team.

He won titles at Benneton before this to establish himself as the stand-out driver of the period.

Alonso is not a team member, he is there to pilot a good car delivered to him. Ferrari need a proper team, which they will never have without changing the drivers. Massa is only there because he's the bunny required by arrangement with Alonso, and Italian.


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:03 pm

Yes Schumacher was in the Senna mould. He'd go to any lengths inside or outside the rules to win races and took command of his teams so everyone played to his tune. Hmmm sounds familiar....Headscratch 
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Post by bogbrush on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:04 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes Schumacher was in the Senna mould. He'd go to any lengths inside or outside the rules to win races and took command of his teams so everyone played to his tune. Hmmm sounds familiar....Headscratch 
You mean like Alonso, demanding a joke driver as team mate, or having a teammate who'd crash on order?

Michael never had a teammate go to those lengths, and I can't think of any other active driver with a history of breaking rules.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:09 pm

No as in insisting he had a puppet as a team-mate and a team who will accept it if he disobeys team orders without any retribution - in short he was team owner. Don't get me wrong - a great driver but highly obnoxious.
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Post by bogbrush on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:12 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:No as in insisting he had a puppet as a team-mate and a team who will accept it if he disobeys team orders without any retribution - in short he was team owner. Don't get me wrong - a great driver but highly obnoxious.
Who are you talking about? Mark Webber told the media he would not accept team orders and proved it in Turkey years ago by trying to pass Vettel against orders, though he couldn't pull it off. I thought openly declaring that and trying to push past his young teammate was harsh but not beyond anything I'd expect of a competitor.
Of course, he got payback this year but that's fair enough.

Schumacher didn't need to disobey orders, they were set for him, as Ferrari continue to do.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:19 pm

Face it - Webber is no more than a puppet. If he weren't the team would have issued a form of punishment to Vettel for blatantly disobeying team orders but as we know nothing happened. Vettel owns/runs Red Bull as he wishes as did Schumacher at Ferrari.
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Post by sikhlion on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:41 pm

For all his faults Schumacher did make F1 interesting. People say he made it boring but imagine if he wasn't there in the Benneton racing the superior Williams, or the Ferrari against the Adrian newey designed mclaren, it would have been a walk over for his rivals. I think he must have brought a little something extra to the team via motivation wins or just by determination to succeed

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 11:05 pm

It depends where you sit on Schumacher. A great driver, a bully and a dictator all rolled into one. It was all a bit pathetic though watching Barrichello guard his backside and forbidden to overtake him and many times even pulling over to let Schumacher through. The best of Schumacher was when he was fully tested by someone from another team.
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Post by bogbrush on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 12:12 am

Oh come on Craig, Webber is not one iota to be compared to Barrichello, or Massa for that matter. You conveniently overlook HIS attitude to team orders when it suited him, and the tolerance showed him (rightly, in my opinion) by his team - and also by Vettel for that matter.

Just to to help you with some history:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93001

Schumacher was just a genius, on and off the track. Liking him is irrelevant, he was the man.

Your intense dislike of the two Germans obscures judgement.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 12:23 am

Yes maybe it is incorrect to put Webber alongside Barrichello. However, the similarities are there with Vettel and Schumacher. Those being a totally free rein on how the team is run and who gets the preferential treatment. And I have said perhaps twwo or three times on this thread of Schumacher's greatness as a driver but we all know he wasn't adverse to his fair share of skullduggery a la Dick Dastardly in Wacky Races. Don't let that cloud your judgement though will you.
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Post by pob on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 1:46 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Byrne is no longer at Ferrari.
Byrne has been brought out of retirement to help design the 2014 car (linky)

_________________________________________________________________
Why aren't you playing for 606v2 in the interforum Formula 1 prediction league?


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Post by bogbrush on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 1:52 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Yes maybe it is incorrect to put Webber alongside Barrichello. However, the similarities are there with Vettel and Schumacher. Those being a totally free rein on how the team is run and who gets the preferential treatment. And I have said perhaps twwo or three times on this thread of Schumacher's greatness as a driver but we all know he wasn't adverse to his fair share of skullduggery a la Dick Dastardly in Wacky Races. Don't let that cloud your judgement though will you.
No, I won't. Because its irrelevant to his skill as a driver and inspiration to his team. You're mixing things up.

As for the other guy, you really haven't clicked the link to learn how Webber was treated exactly the same way Vettel was over team orders have you? The only difference is that Vettel said he didn't mind and Mark whined.
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Post by sikhlion on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 9:21 am

Although people argue that Schumacher's team mates were never allowed to race him, it was very rare that they were in a position to race him. They were always a few places behind him on the grid and in the race so the help he got from them was minimal apart from the few rare occasions they were asked to move over ( which is not something that hasn't happened for other drivers) Schumacher invested a lot of time effort and determination in Ferrari so it was only natural that he became the number one driver. If the other team driver didn't like it he should have shown it in the track by beating Schumacher regularly.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:00 am

Is that so?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwZju13GCWM&list=PL6A3FA0E7196B07C3

Shocking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJf6ZkSMWHY

Tut tut.

And believe you me there is so much more.
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Post by bogbrush on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:40 am

Yeah, it's irrelevant to the question. I'm certainly struggling to see how what Benneton did has any impact on Schumachers achievements at Ferarri.

As for Austria, are you seriously putting that forward as some sort of issue? Lewis admitted he got a similar benefit this year when his faster teammate was told to stay behind but you moan like Hell about Vettel refusing to accept team orders (yet ignore Webber doing the same). Your arguments are all over the place, it's hard to understand your opinion on these matters, except who you don't like.

Everyone knows Schumacher pushed it to the limit and beyond. He crashed into opponents (just like Senna and arguably Prost). He parked on the track to screw an opponents qualifying (got nobbled for that). It has no bearing on why he was such an incredible success, which was because he was brilliant, driven, and a superb team player.

Nobody ever crashed for him as far as I know, though.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:52 am

Schumacher took this persona wherever he went. Fabulous driver yes but please lets not overlook the darker side as well. Far too many to mention wherever and whoever he drove for.

I do believe it is a trait that goes hand in hand with many of the great drivers as Ayrton Senna was the same and yes Alonso and Vettel has them as well.
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Post by bogbrush on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 1:38 pm

Can you list the infringements Vettel and Alonso have made?
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:30 pm

It's the persona I am talking of - they have both been at teams where they expect to be No.1 team driver - Alonso at McLaren and Vettel at Red Bull. That mentality ensures Alonso and Vettel will NEVER drive for the same team. Their egos couldn't take it.
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Post by bogbrush on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 1:12 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:It's the persona I am talking of - they have both been at teams where they expect  to be No.1 team driver - Alonso at McLaren and Vettel at Red Bull. That mentality ensures Alonso and Vettel will NEVER drive for the same team. Their egos couldn't take it.
Vettel had no problem with Webber disobeying team orders and trying to overtake him. Doesn't sound like a guy with a desperate need for status.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 8:16 am

But he had major problems obeying his own team when they ordered him to hold station.

As for Schumi lest we forget two seasons when he took rival drivers for the title off the track deliberately crashing into them so he sealed the title. It worked with Damon Hill but the FIA finally grew a semblance of a backbone when he tried it a few years later against Jacques Villeneuve and he was subsequently disqualified from the championship. Shameful.
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Post by sikhlion on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 11:42 am

To be honest I liked Schumacher's ruthless streak. I think it's needed to be a great sportsman. He pushed everything to its limit the car his team and also occasionally the rules.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 04 Aug 2013, 11:48 am

Wrong he never just pushed the rules - he broke the rules.
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Post by Critical_mass on Mon 05 Aug 2013, 11:51 am

Although what Schumacher achieved was quite a feet... i dont feel its THAT impressive given the circumstances. You've got to take into account things like, tyres (developed for ferrari), cars, current regs,competitors cars, "cooperative" team mate etc....

I cant help but feel Schumacher had everything in his favour, which made it easy/ier for him to get the championships he did.

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Post by Guest on Mon 05 Aug 2013, 2:38 pm

Spa needs to hurry up.....

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Post by Critical_mass on Mon 05 Aug 2013, 3:13 pm

John wrote:Spa needs to hurry up.....

agreed, 3 looooong weeks.

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Post by monty junior on Wed 07 Aug 2013, 10:49 am

Wish they would just have races two weeks apart rather than these annoying 3 week gaps. To long to wait for the best track in the world.

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Post by bogbrush on Tue 13 Aug 2013, 8:10 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:But he had major problems obeying his own team when they ordered him to hold station.

As for Schumi lest we forget two seasons when he took rival drivers for the title off the track deliberately crashing into them so he sealed the title. It worked with Damon Hill but the FIA finally grew a semblance of a backbone when he tried it a few years later against Jacques Villeneuve and he was subsequently disqualified from the championship. Shameful.
First Vettel. Course he did. He'd said when Webber tried to pass him against team orders long before that he didn't mind, it's racing. The guy's been consistent that in his book they're all racers trying to win. That he applied the standard first to another trying to beat him long before applying it to himself only makes him consistent and obviously fair.

I don't know why I can't get this through to you; Vettel does not apply double standards to racing behaviour. The standard he applies is the one we, as spectators, must want - competitive racing, hard but fair. What's your problem with that?

As for Schumacher, yes he did that. You want a list of others who did exactly the same? I guess you know it because you must have kicked them off your list too.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 13 Aug 2013, 9:58 pm

The double standards may not have reared their head yet but as Vettel is often referred to as Baby Schumi then that trait has plenty of time to emerge. Yes people want competitive racing and you say Vettel wants this then why the laughably feeble complaint over the radio late on in Hungary complaining about perfectly fair driving of Raikonnen wanting his team to speak to Charlie Whyting.? Rolling Eyes 

As for Schumacher he did that and stacks more as I am sure you are fully aware - he made Dick Dastardly look positively angel-like. But please feel free to list any other driver who has TWICE taken his rival for the world championship off in the last race of the season in a bid to win the title.
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Post by Hodginho on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 2:53 pm

I can't even think of ONE driver that's done that??
Twice??
In the last race of the season??

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Post by sikhlion on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 10:55 pm

Senna took Prost out in one race to clinch the championship? Not that it justifies Schumacher's antics

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Post by GSC on Thu 15 Aug 2013, 10:57 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The double standards may not have reared their head yet but as Vettel is often referred to as Baby Schumi then that trait has plenty of time to emerge. Yes people want competitive racing and you say Vettel wants this then why the laughably feeble complaint over the radio late on in Hungary complaining about perfectly fair driving of Raikonnen wanting his team to speak to Charlie Whyting.? Rolling Eyes 
This is overstated. Its late in a hugely frustrating race for Vettel and he makes a throwaway comment. I doubt RB took it anywhere, and its not really a reflection on Vettel as a whole
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 16 Aug 2013, 12:11 am

Something flashed through his head to make him say it clearly. You don't come out and make specific comments like that and be able to call them throwaway. Fair enough if it was a random expletive but not an observation like he made.
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Post by GSC on Sun 18 Aug 2013, 3:13 pm

on a scale from 1-10 in significance, it ranks around -2. Just a frustrated comment during a frustrating race.
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Post by bogbrush on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 4:34 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:The double standards may not have reared their head yet but as Vettel is often referred to as Baby Schumi then that trait has plenty of time to emerge. Yes people want competitive racing and you say Vettel wants this then why the laughably feeble complaint over the radio late on in Hungary complaining about perfectly fair driving of Raikonnen wanting his team to speak to Charlie Whyting.? Rolling Eyes 

As for Schumacher he did that and stacks more as I am sure you are fully aware - he made Dick Dastardly look positively angel-like. But please feel free to list any other driver who has TWICE taken his rival for the world championship off in the last race of the season in a bid to win the title.
So because other people give him a nickname (based mostly on him being German and brilliant) you decide that he will show double standards in the future that he as yet to exhibit? Are you serious? Desperate, dismal stuff. Truly ridiculous. A guy doesn't show double standards but his nickname proves he will. I doubt I've ever read such a comment.

And reaching or that tiny, throw away comment isn't much better. I guess you were apoplectic when Alonso tweeted extensively about Vettels alleged overtake under yellow in Brazil, when he..... er........ didn't?
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 9:42 am

Nope not apoplectic I don't do that but reading the way you word your posts I think you do apoplectic. All your teeth gnashing etc won't elevate Vettel up in my estimation. I've said before only he can do that by suitably impressing by winning a title away from the comfort blanket of Red Bull where they have the best car designer of all-time in Adrian Newey and a team that follow his orders like sheep in a team he runs despite what Christian Horner may feel.
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Post by bogbrush on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 7:19 pm

I can't be angry when there's such comedy gold on these pages. I mean, holding Vettel responsible for having double standards, when he's not done so but has a nickname that means he will in the future...... well you'd go a long way to see that topped!

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Post by bogbrush on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 7:21 pm

I take it Mark wasn't amongst those sheep when he disobeyed orders to try to pass him, nor everyone else when they didn't punish Webber.

More like a flock of cats.
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Post by GSC on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 7:26 pm

Mark Webber ignored team orders to try and overtake Vettel a few years ago.
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Post by bogbrush on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 8:02 pm

Quite. I've told Craig this about 5 times but he can't be shaken from his conviction otherwise.
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Post by GSC on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 8:04 pm

Clearly it's different when it's poor Mark Webber, a driver so poor he failed his driving test 7 times
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Post by cosicave on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 4:18 am

bogbrush wrote:…Schumacher was just a genius, on and off the track. Liking him is irrelevant, he was the man.

Your intense dislike of the two Germans obscures judgement.
Schumacher was and is a genius off the track (in terms of orchestrating a preferential environment for himself).
Only.

He was a very good driver on the track too. Combined with a real genius for gaining every conceivable off-track advantage (although admittedly, this was before Briatore stooped to his all-time low of organising crashes), his driving was good enough. It was probably better than at least 75% of his rivals. But in terms of pure driving, Schumacher falls short of justifying the 'genius' tag.

Genius in race driving is a term that should be used with caution. Amongst true geniuses are some with no World Drivers' titles at all. The nature of genius elevates beyond mere statistical analysis; it being largely an unmeasurable Quality. This should not be confused with readily measured Quantity.
Success is a very, very different concept to genius…

Throughout Grand Prix racing's long history there have been a few who warrant such an accolade (probably a handful but fewer than a dozen); and in my opinion, Schumacher is not to be counted amongst them. In dry conditions especially, relative to the real geniuses who I will refrain from mentioning, he lacked the ultimate finesse of smoothness and 'flow'. Having said that, during an era comprehensively dominated by Ferrari's well-connectedness – which together with him conspired to hold almost every ace in the pack – his driving was probably worth two or three titles on merit. His time at Benetton perhaps lays true claim to one, although this (1995) would in part be due to Hill's disillusionment which affected his mental ability to put up a proper challenge until regrouping the next year.

Oddly enough, 'greatness' is also a different word to 'genius'. Although the two concepts both involve a function of quality, they are distinct because greatness owes more to 'success' than does genius. To sum up: Schumacher is the most successful Grand Prix driver in history. Not greatest*. Not genius. With regard to Schumacher then, one's appreciation of his successes should be tempered before extending other, perhaps less-deserving tags.

*Greatness is a concept which, when applied to human beings, implies a weighing of the measurable with respect to the immeasurable. And actually, in terms of pure driving, Alonso is, in my opinion, closer to a definition of genius than Schumacher – although I would still not (quite) include him either!
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Post by cosicave on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 5:27 am

bogbrush wrote:… Massa is only there because he's the bunny required by arrangement with Alonso, and Italian.
Massa is Brazilian, bogbrush.Smile
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Post by cosicave on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 7:11 am

sikhlion wrote:To be honest I liked Schumacher's ruthless streak. I think it's needed to be a great sportsman…

I agree that ruthlessness is an important ingredient in sporting success, sikhlion but surely we have to be careful here?

Yes, ruthlessness can be admirable. But it can also be despicable. When applied to sport, ruthlessness can become something very close to the antonym of 'sporting'. Therefore ruthlessness in sport is only admirable so long as it conforms to something resembling its sporting code, since this is the banner under which it occurs and is measured. After all, the greatest part of the definition of a sportsman (or sportswoman) is that he or she behaves 'sportingly'. And, lest there be doubt, someone of a 'sporting' nature is one who is 'fair and generous in behaviour or treatment of others, especially in contest'.

Thus, with reference to Schumacher, there is surely at least some room to doubt whether his behaviour in competition conformed to the definition of 'sportsman'. And if such doubt exists, it does not reflect well upon Schumacher's particular brand of ruthlessness: indeed, it sheds further doubt upon him being described as a sportsman. And, oddly enough, this has further implications for any claim to 'greatness'…
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Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari Empty Re: Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari

Post by SteveG on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 8:52 am

Agree there is a difference between great and genius - like Schumi Stephen Hendry has 7 world snooker titles and (rightly so) is classed as "great" - but Alex Higgins was a genius.

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Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari Empty Re: Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari

Post by sikhlion on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 3:32 pm

I accept your points that greatness is linked to success and is a different concept to the term Genius. However, I can't understand how Alonso can be thought of as being closer to a genius then Schumacher. Schumacher recognised he was part of a team and if he was to win his team needed to win, he helped develop Ferrari into a strong team and they in return put their full force behind him helping him to achieve success. In addition to this he was determined and did put on some inspired drives at times, in the rain- I think in Spain 1996 he was three seconds a lap quicker then his rivals, in spa when he collided with coulthard he was going strong before that when others were struggling bringing his Benneton home in second whilst stuck in fifth gear and his debut race in 1991 with Jordan was a grand achievement for a novice. He's driven for different teams won titles in inferior cars (the Benneton was weaker I think then the Williams) brought Ferrari from being a midfield team to front runners and had a few good races for Mercedes too. He never joined a team when they were the absolute best I think. Alonso whilst I agree is a fabulous driver has won two titles with Renault but those two years I think they had the best car and then ever since he's been with Ferrari has been unable to achieve what Schumacher did however I do accept the dominance of Red Bull may have hindered his chances of success at Ferrari. Whilst I agree he's had some great drives I can't think of any that can be classed as any greater then some of Schumacher's greatest drives.

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Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari Empty Re: Schumacher's achievements at Ferrari

Post by bogbrush on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 6:13 pm

I agree, I think people generally have a need to categorise and Schumacher had such pronounced abilities in terms of his off track brilliance, his ruthlessness and efficiency that the temptation is there to understate his driving ability.

To suggest he was only superior to 75% of his rivals is very odd. As sikhlion says, his early career saw him more often categorised for his brilliant displays in adversity. That he didn't see much adversity later on was at least  partly down to his off track capability.
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Post by bogbrush on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 6:15 pm

cosicave wrote:
bogbrush wrote:… Massa is only there because he's the bunny required by arrangement with Alonso, and Italian.
Massa is Brazilian, bogbrush.Smile
Slip of the mind, thank you.

There is now only one reason he's there.
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Post by cosicave on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 8:43 pm

sikhlion wrote:I accept your points that greatness is linked to success and is a different concept to the term Genius. However, I can't understand how Alonso can be thought of as being closer to a genius then Schumacher…
It is a fine line. In that comparison, I was restricting my use of the term 'genius' to driving, completely. Of course, I acknowledge that others may see things differently, since this is the nature of opinion. I also stopped short of earmarking those I would credit as true driving geniuses, historic or otherwise, because to do so is likely to ignite controversy (in no small part through ignorance). In particular, I avoided mentioning a current driver who I believe actually does fit the definition!

bogbrush wrote:I agree, I think people generally have a need to categorise and Schumacher had such pronounced abilities in terms of his off track brilliance, his ruthlessness and efficiency that the temptation is there to understate his driving ability.

To suggest he was only superior to 75% of his rivals is very odd. As sikhlion says, his early career saw him more often categorised for his brilliant displays in adversity. That he didn't see much adversity later on was at least partly down to his off track capability.
75% was a rough approximation. And yes, perhaps it was less than generous. However, I'd like to emphasise that I am talking about driving alone; trying to do the impossible of ignoring the off-track genius I've already acknowledged. But feeling more generous today, I still wouldn't push it much beyond being 90% superior as a driver during any period of his driving. My point was that he was very good but not a genius.

bogbrush wrote:
cosicave wrote:
bogbrush wrote:… Massa is only there because he's the bunny required by arrangement with Alonso, and Italian.
Massa is Brazilian, bogbrush.Smile
Slip of the mind, thank you.

There is now only one reason he's there.
Very Happy Heheheh… that's very amusing, bogbrush! I also agree with you that Briatore organises things for his favourite boy (currently Alonso and previously Schumacher). And of course this fits well with di Montezemolo and his (currently not so) merry men at Maranello…
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