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Post by STC on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 3:35 pm

.....did God allow our souls to to ascend into Heaven?

At what stage did we become human enough?

How did God implement this new rule? Did he just draw a line 50,000 years ago and say, "Right, from this day forward, anyone born will now be eligible for Heaven. Anyone born before this day is still a little bit too much of a monkey, so can't come in, sorry." ?

Is that how it worked?
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Post by Scottrff on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 3:54 pm

Evolution? You don't seem to know the bible very well.

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Post by STC on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 3:59 pm

Doesn't The Catholic Church accept evolution by natural selection as fact?
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Post by Scottrff on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

Does it? I thought we were converted instantly from dust/ribs depending on our sex.

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Post by STC on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:06 pm

Speak for yourself.
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Post by Scottrff on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:07 pm

I tend to.

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Post by STC on Thu 12 Sep 2013, 4:12 pm

Well I'm pleased you do, my old mucker.

I'm pleased you did today in this thread. You've made it look a little bit interesting and popular, even though it is neither.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:10 pm

Erm, you're making a bit of an assumption that only Christianity allows people to ascend to Heaven.

Doesn't Islam have an equivalent? If so, they would have begun ascending far earlier, as Christianity started as an offshoot of Judaism, (some time around the 1st century AD, IIRC), whereas Islam and Judaism go back around 4,000-5,000 BC. Wink

Maybe the Druids, the ancient Egyptians and Greeks also had something similar? Of course they subscribed to polytheism, rather than the now-accepted monotheism, but they all had their own versions of the afterlife...

I could be wrong but I htink the earliest archeological evidence of organised religion (temples, artifacts etc. date back to around 5,000-6,000 BC, so thats probably when we started going to the various versions of Heaven (and Hell devil).


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:14 pm

.......which explains why they're still stuck in the dark ages......

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Post by dyrewolfe on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:21 pm

Lol. Personally I find the whole concept quite amusing.

Again, I could be wrong here, but I don't think Jews have a Heaven or Hell. Always struck me as quite a pragmatic people... Wink
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:26 pm

haha the fact Judaism is based, basically, on the content of the old testament shows what a load of baloney it is.

all the ridiculous stuff is in there.

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Post by STC on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 4:32 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Erm, you're making a bit of an assumption that only Christianity allows people to ascend to Heaven.

Doesn't Islam have an equivalent? If so, they would have begun ascending far earlier, as Christianity started as an offshoot of Judaism, (some time around the 1st century AD, IIRC), whereas Islam and Judaism go back around 4,000-5,000 BC. Wink

Maybe the Druids, the ancient Egyptians and Greeks also had something similar? Of course they subscribed to polytheism, rather than the now-accepted monotheism, but they all had their own versions of the afterlife...

I could be wrong but I htink the earliest archeological evidence of organised religion (temples, artifacts etc. date back to around 5,000-6,000 BC, so thats probably when we started going to the various versions of Heaven (and Hell devil).
I said 'God'. So I guess I meant anyone who believes in a God and in an afterlife in some form of Heaven. So that means Christians and Muslims and all the others too.

If organised religion started 5 000 - 6 000 years ago then where were were our souls going before this?

If God had any kind of pity on us, surely he would have allowed our ancestors to ascend up to his eternal kingdom even before we had any idea that he, or it, existed? So we must have been floating on up there for as long as we have had souls? But how long is that? Did we have a soul when we first wandered onto the plains and started wading through water on our hind legs? Should we expect to find a small and extremely hairy great, great, great, great........... granny up in heaven?
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Post by Crimey on Mon 16 Sep 2013, 7:08 pm

Islam is actually the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the core and then Christianity offshooted from it from around 30AD with Islam being much later around 610AD with Muhammad being the last prophet.

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Post by STC on Tue 17 Sep 2013, 10:38 am

Crimey wrote:Islam is actually the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the core and then Christianity offshooted from it from around 30AD with Islam being much later around 610AD with Muhammad being the last prophet.
So there are more Jews in heaven than Christians? and more Christians than Muslims?

I wonder if they all integrate in heaven. I'm sure they must. I'm sure they all get along fine.

But what about the Neanderthals?
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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 1:33 pm

STC wrote:
Crimey wrote:Islam is actually the youngest of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the core and then Christianity offshooted from it from around 30AD with Islam being much later around 610AD with Muhammad being the last prophet.
So there are more Jews in heaven than Christians? and more Christians than Muslims?

I wonder if they all integrate in heaven. I'm sure they must. I'm sure they all get along fine.

But what about the Neanderthals?
Sure the Americans do just fine.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 2:52 pm

Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.

Muslims pray to ALLAH the Jews refer to GOD as Jahavoh or Yarway Christians believe in 3 in 1 trinity. Fundamentally they all believe in 1 GOD and ALL recognize that the creator is the 1 true GOD.

It amazes me that people think that Muslims pray to ANOTHER GOD completely different to Jews and Christians this is not the case. If you study the 3 religions you will see that this  is false.

Jews and Muslims however have remained true to monotheisem while Christianity somewhere in its history crept into idol worship and plural deity worship eg the trinity, worship of saints, worship of relics, worship of angels etc. You don't find such things in Judaism or Islam.

Just wanted to point it out wether you are religious or not.

Sorry for poor spelling at work.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:04 pm

Christianity is still a mono-deity religion, rest of that sentence is baloney.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:15 pm

Why does Allah have different you to the other 2 then...

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:16 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why does Allah have different you to the other 2 then...
Because it's all made up..........?

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:17 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Christianity is still a mono-deity religion, rest of that sentence is baloney.
Everything is baloney to you mate because you are the greatest most perfect human on the planet

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:18 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why does Allah have different you to the other 2 then...
Don't understand that question.

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Post by STC on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:25 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.
Correct. The different religions are all praying to the one God. Therefore they all must share the same heaven.

My question was how far back into human ancestry do the rules of entry to heaven apply? Surely our souls were ascending into heaven even before we developed organised religion. We didn't know any better. If not, where did all the souls of the non-believers go, before Judaism, Christianity or Islam?
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 3:35 pm

STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.
Correct. The different religions are all praying to the one God. Therefore they all must share the same heaven.

My question was how far back into human ancestry do the rules of entry to heaven apply? Surely our souls were ascending into heaven even before we developed organised religion. We didn't know any better. If not, where did all the souls of the non-believers go, before Judaism, Christianity or Islam?
Its a very good question but 1 no one can really answer I'm afraid.

Its like asking Christians ''If Jesus died so mankind sins were forgiven, what of the millions of humans who came before Jesus?''

What I believe is this.

At some point in our human history an outside source intervened in our development. I don't buy this notion that we were at one stage swinging on trees and eating bananas and then building the pyramids the next. They say we was apes for thousands of years but then admit that there is a missing link in the history of mankind. I question a lot but still find myself believing in GOD.

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Post by STC on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 4:10 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.
Correct. The different religions are all praying to the one God. Therefore they all must share the same heaven.

My question was how far back into human ancestry do the rules of entry to heaven apply? Surely our souls were ascending into heaven even before we developed organised religion. We didn't know any better. If not, where did all the souls of the non-believers go, before Judaism, Christianity or Islam?
Its a very good question but 1 no one can really answer I'm afraid.

Its like asking Christians ''If Jesus died so mankind sins were forgiven, what of the millions of humans who came before Jesus?''

What I believe is this.

At some point in our human history an outside source intervened in our development. I don't buy this notion that we were at one stage swinging on trees and eating bananas and then building the pyramids the next. They say we was apes for thousands of years but then admit that there is a missing link in the history of mankind. I question a lot but still find myself believing in GOD.
Believing in a GOD is fine. Believing in a CREATOR of the universe is also fine. But you can't just dismiss the evidence for evolution by natural selection.

Missing link? Really? If you had a thousand piece jigsaw and it had a few pieces missing, but you went on and completed the jigsaw as it was, would you deny the picture that your eyes see despite there being a few pieces missing? Would the few missing pieces be evidence that the picture you see before you had to be wrong?
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 4:57 pm

STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.
Correct. The different religions are all praying to the one God. Therefore they all must share the same heaven.

My question was how far back into human ancestry do the rules of entry to heaven apply? Surely our souls were ascending into heaven even before we developed organised religion. We didn't know any better. If not, where did all the souls of the non-believers go, before Judaism, Christianity or Islam?
Its a very good question but 1 no one can really answer I'm afraid.

Its like asking Christians ''If Jesus died so mankind sins were forgiven, what of the millions of humans who came before Jesus?''

What I believe is this.

At some point in our human history an outside source intervened in our development. I don't buy this notion that we were at one stage swinging on trees and eating bananas and then building the pyramids the next. They say we was apes for thousands of years but then admit that there is a missing link in the history of mankind. I question a lot but still find myself believing in GOD.
Believing in a GOD is fine. Believing in a CREATOR of the universe is also fine. But you can't just dismiss the evidence for evolution by natural selection.

Missing link? Really? If you had a thousand piece jigsaw and it had a few pieces missing, but you went on and completed the jigsaw as it was, would you deny the picture that your eyes see despite there being a few pieces missing? Would the few missing pieces be evidence that the picture you see before you had to be wrong?
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.

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Post by STC on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 5:03 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Here is a FACT most people don't understand.

Muslims believe in the same creator GOD as Jews and Christians. Therefore the GOD in Genisis who both the Jews and Christians recognised is the same GOD worshiped by Muslims.
Correct. The different religions are all praying to the one God. Therefore they all must share the same heaven.

My question was how far back into human ancestry do the rules of entry to heaven apply? Surely our souls were ascending into heaven even before we developed organised religion. We didn't know any better. If not, where did all the souls of the non-believers go, before Judaism, Christianity or Islam?
Its a very good question but 1 no one can really answer I'm afraid.

Its like asking Christians ''If Jesus died so mankind sins were forgiven, what of the millions of humans who came before Jesus?''

What I believe is this.

At some point in our human history an outside source intervened in our development. I don't buy this notion that we were at one stage swinging on trees and eating bananas and then building the pyramids the next. They say we was apes for thousands of years but then admit that there is a missing link in the history of mankind. I question a lot but still find myself believing in GOD.
Believing in a GOD is fine. Believing in a CREATOR of the universe is also fine. But you can't just dismiss the evidence for evolution by natural selection.

Missing link? Really? If you had a thousand piece jigsaw and it had a few pieces missing, but you went on and completed the jigsaw as it was, would you deny the picture that your eyes see despite there being a few pieces missing? Would the few missing pieces be evidence that the picture you see before you had to be wrong?
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
That's a fair point.

I would also be intrigued, but it's fairly obvious what the missing pieces will reveal.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 5:18 pm

If its obvious then why are talking about a missing link in the first place?

I just think that the knowledge that very ancient man obtained ie cosmology, complex construction, and medicine does not fit the mainstream scientific view of human development and evolution.

However, should today's scientists admit that the world is older then we think, then I am willing to listen.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 11:23 pm

well done STC, you managed to get the tin foil hat brigade out again.....

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 18 Sep 2013, 11:24 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Christianity is still a mono-deity religion, rest of that sentence is baloney.
Everything is baloney to you mate because you are the greatest most perfect human on the planet
or maybe you just don't like itwhen you try to patronisingly lecture and get your facts wrong...??

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 8:37 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.

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Post by STC on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 8:53 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:If its obvious then why are talking about a missing link in the first place?
Because we haven't found it yet, hence it being 'missing'.

There are more than one transitional fossils that we haven't found yet, does that mean that they don't exist and that we didn't evolve the way we think we did? Of course it doesn't. It just means that we haven't found all of the pieces of the puzzle yet.

You don't need every last piece of the puzzle to solve the puzzle. The puzzle has already been solved.
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Post by Rowley on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 8:57 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.
That is exactly what "they" would want you to say Julius.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 8:59 am

How do you know I'm not one of 'them'?

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Post by Rowley on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 9:00 am

I don't, not for a minute. If I have learned one thing in my time on the planet it is not to underestimate the cunning of those running the show behind the show.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 9:02 am

Or the show behind the Big Show.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 2:35 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.
Simply choose what?

I just gave my opinion, could'nt give a f**k what anybody thinks, its just MY view.

If you want to believe we come from apes then go ahead.

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Post by STC on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 2:39 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.
Simply choose what?

I just gave my opinion, could'nt give a f**k what anybody thinks, its just MY view.

If you want to believe we come from apes then go ahead.
We don't come from apes. We share a common ancestor.
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Post by Rowley on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 2:39 pm

STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.
Simply choose what?

I just gave my opinion, could'nt give a f**k what anybody thinks, its just MY view.

If you want to believe we come from apes then go ahead.
We don't come from apes. We share a common ancestor.
In all fairness STC, there are a few people in Rotherham who challenge that theory.

Rowley
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Post by STC on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 2:46 pm

Rowley wrote:
STC wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
No but if the picture starting out as a monkey in a tree went on to become the pyramids of Giza or stonehenge, things that can't be explained conclusively TODAY then I would be very intrigued to know what those missing pieces reveal.
Stonehenge then went on to be the Tianhe-2 supercomputer.
The main reason these ancient things can't be explained conclusively is that the origins weren't recorded and/or have been lost in the mists of time. Plenty of reasonable theories though.
God and aliens haven't been explained or 'proved' conclusively either. It seems you simply choose which theories you wish to believe and then don't believe the others because they are 'just theories'.
Simply choose what?

I just gave my opinion, could'nt give a f**k what anybody thinks, its just MY view.

If you want to believe we come from apes then go ahead.
We don't come from apes. We share a common ancestor.
In all fairness STC, there are a few people in Rotherham who challenge that theory.
I concur.
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