Men or Wimps?

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Men or Wimps?

Post by Azabache on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:13 am

I was ashamed to be British watching the coverage of the men's Worlds road race on Sunday.
Let's never again hear boasts of the Dunkirk spirit, do-or-die, never give up, the thing is to compete, bring on the bad weather etc., etc.
Absolutely disgraceful.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:15 am

Wasn't great. To just quit because you aren't going to win is a shambles. Any other sport you would be hung drawn and quartered for such a poor showing.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:28 am

What is the point of trying to chase back to the leading group when you know it is impossible to do so?

I suppose you would have carried on pulling yourself inside out in dangerous conditions for no reason, would you? Sure you would.

It may be the World Championships but it is no different from any other big one day race. A race of attrition where if you fall by the wayside you are pretty much out of the race.

How many riders started, how many finished? But it's just the Brits who are being criticised for pulling out is it?
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by whocares on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 11:45 am

it's true a lot of other big names pulled out with 100km remaining : Quintana, Horner, Evans, dan Martin etc.

that said it is more the lack of preparation that could be criticised :

http://www1.skysports.com/cycling/news/15264/8948247/chris-froome-takes-comfort-in-amazing-season-after-abandoning-world-title-bid


Coach Rod Ellingworth afterwards scolded the riders for failing to do the British jersey justice.

"We should be very disappointed," he said. "The lads' attitude wasn't where it needs to be, to be honest. I'm not sure they really took this on thinking it was going to be as hard as it actually was.

"With the weather, we knew it was going to be pretty tough. I am very disappointed in the whole team performance.

"Chris said he struggled with the cold and the rain, but it is the same for everybody. That's what makes the worlds what it is.

"All of them sat on the bus with 100km to go is very disappointing. Luke [Rowe] and Cav [Mark Cavendish] were average, the other guys were well below average.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 12:37 pm

STC wrote:What is the point of trying to chase back to the leading group when you know it is impossible to do so?

I suppose you would have carried on pulling yourself inside out in dangerous conditions for no reason, would you? Sure you would.

It may be the World Championships but it is no different from any other big one day race. A race of attrition where if you fall by the wayside you are pretty much out of the race.

How many riders started, how many finished? But it's just the Brits who are being criticised for pulling out is it?
I entered a road race recently and was cut off from the leaders fairly sharpish with two others. They both dropped out and I finished. Maybe I'm just that kind of person. I had no chance of catching a group averaging 25mph on my own but carried on anyway.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Azabache on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:04 pm

I did the very first Act 2 Etape back in 2011 (a week after doing the Alpe d'Huez Act 1).

It was a horror of 209KM in the most appalling conditions imaginable-read up on it if you think I'm exaggerating.

I pluckily finished it-the long route, not the shortened route the organisers were forcing competitors to take. I was with a Frenchman and a Belgian.

There were plenty of other nationalities at the Worlds who had no hope but finished.

Bravo to them. Some people have something called Pride.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:05 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
STC wrote:What is the point of trying to chase back to the leading group when you know it is impossible to do so?

I suppose you would have carried on pulling yourself inside out in dangerous conditions for no reason, would you? Sure you would.

It may be the World Championships but it is no different from any other big one day race. A race of attrition where if you fall by the wayside you are pretty much out of the race.

How many riders started, how many finished? But it's just the Brits who are being criticised for pulling out is it?
I entered a road race recently and was cut off from the leaders fairly sharpish with two others. They both dropped out and I finished. Maybe I'm just that kind of person. I had no chance of catching a group averaging 25mph on my own but carried on anyway.
Yeah good for you. That doesn't mean a pro cyclist is any less of a person for quitting a race he has no chance of winning.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:06 pm

Azabache wrote:I did the very first Act 2 Etape back in 2011 (a week after doing the Alpe d'Huez Act 1).

It was a horror of 209KM in the most appalling conditions imaginable-read up on it if you think I'm exaggerating.

I pluckily finished it-the long route, not the shortened route the organisers were forcing competitors to take. I was with a Frenchman and a Belgian.

There were plenty of other nationalities at the Worlds who had no hope but finished.

Bravo to them. Some people have something called Pride.
You're awesome too. If only our pro cyclists had your will to win.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:11 pm

It does make him less of a person. Quitting is the easy way out and not something I would personally be comfortable doing myself.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Azabache on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:20 pm

STC-thanks, nice of you, but I'm only a moderate hack!

But I'd never dream of not finishing-I'm British!

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:53 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:It does make him less of a person. Quitting is the easy way out and not something I would personally be comfortable doing myself.
Fair enough but you haven't been in the position those riders were in. The worlds is a long race. Once you're off the back it's very hard to get back on again and the conditions and number of crashes didn't help. If they weren't going to get back to the main group then I don't blame them for quitting, each and every one of them. They're professional cyclists, they live to fight another day. Nobody is going to remember them for riding on for a few extra hours just so that they can say that they finished the race.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 1:55 pm

Azabache wrote:STC-thanks, nice of you, but I'm only a moderate hack!

But I'd never dream of not finishing-I'm British!
Fair enough to you too.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 2:21 pm

The race was equally difficult for the many cyclists who did finish and had no chance of winning.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 2:34 pm

Good for them.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 2:47 pm

So we agree, team GB let themselves down with a quitters performance.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 3:10 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:So we agree, team GB let themselves down with a quitters performance.
Well it depends. It's hard to know for sure unless you were on that bike at that time. I personally don't know exactly what happened to Froome and Wiggins, how many times they crashed, had mechanicals, got stuck behind other crashes, how good they felt at what stages of the race. I don't know, it wasn't clear on the coverage. All that was clear is that the weather was bad and that there were lots of crashes early on and a lot of the riders abandoned the race.

You could say that they let themselves down. You could argue that they should race until the finish, even when they realise they have no chance of winning. Personally I see no reason to continue to race on under those circumstances.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Sep 2013, 6:51 pm

I don't think they let themselves down by quitting, this happens in one day races. They let themselves down in their actual performance
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by dummy_half on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 11:23 am

Olly wrote:I don't think they let themselves down by quitting, this happens in one day races. They let themselves down in their actual performance
Spot on - there is no point for a professional racer to continue a one day race beyond the point he is able to contribute to the racing (whether by competing for the win or contributing to a team mate's chances, depending on your role in the team). Save the energy and be more competetive on another day rather than pushing on for a meaningless finish 20 minutes behind the winner, especially in the bad weather.

The performances of our supposed team leaders wasn't good enough, but it is this that they should be criticised for, not purely the failure to finish.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 11:34 am

Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 11:57 am

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.
Because you are wasting energy for no reason, energy you may need another day. You also risk unnecessary injury from crashes. There's just no point carrying on.
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 12:25 pm

STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.
Because you are wasting energy for no reason, energy you may need another day. You also risk unnecessary injury from crashes. There's just no point carrying on.
Surely the same can be said for every single sport.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 12:57 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.
Because you are wasting energy for no reason, energy you may need another day. You also risk unnecessary injury from crashes. There's just no point carrying on.
Surely the same can be said for every single sport.
Yeah but once a one day cycle race is won, it's won. Those who aren't contesting the race finish are irrelevant at that point.

Footballers play on for goal difference and for pride, although I've seen enough games where teams just concede after so long, well certain players do. I don't know about Formula 1 but I'm would imagine that those outside of the points just coast in at the end don't they?
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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by Lumbering_Jack on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 1:47 pm

STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.
Because you are wasting energy for no reason, energy you may need another day. You also risk unnecessary injury from crashes. There's just no point carrying on.
Surely the same can be said for every single sport.
Yeah but once a one day cycle race is won, it's won. Those who aren't contesting the race finish are irrelevant at that point.

Footballers play on for goal difference and for pride, although I've seen enough games where teams just concede after so long, well certain players do. I don't know about Formula 1 but I'm would imagine that those outside of the points just coast in at the end don't they?
So cyclists can't ride for pride?

Seems to me cyclists are exempt from finishing a race that they can't win, where other sportsmen would be vilified for it.

I've got a club race next month. I know for a fact I won't win, or even be in the top 10 but I'm still going to make sure I finish the race.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by JDizzle on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 1:53 pm

That's a bit different isn't it though. Chris Froome is a man who has won the Tour de France and has come close to winning other GT's. I don't think rolling in about an hour behind the winners is his idea of gaining some pride.

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Re: Men or Wimps?

Post by STC on Tue 01 Oct 2013, 2:06 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
STC wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Why is it acceptable in cycling to not finish because you can't win but not in other sports.

Sure when teams go down 5 nil to Man Utd they would like to quit. What about Formula 1 drivers who are clearly going to finish outside the points.

Serious question so no muppet answers please.
Because you are wasting energy for no reason, energy you may need another day. You also risk unnecessary injury from crashes. There's just no point carrying on.
Surely the same can be said for every single sport.
Yeah but once a one day cycle race is won, it's won. Those who aren't contesting the race finish are irrelevant at that point.

Footballers play on for goal difference and for pride, although I've seen enough games where teams just concede after so long, well certain players do. I don't know about Formula 1 but I'm would imagine that those outside of the points just coast in at the end don't they?
So cyclists can't ride for pride?

Seems to me cyclists are exempt from finishing a race that they can't win, where other sportsmen would be vilified for it.

I've got a club race next month. I know for a fact I won't win, or even be in the top 10 but I'm still going to make sure I finish the race.
That's because the club race is a big deal to you and your cycling season, no doubt. Your aim is to finish the race and do so in a decent position I imagine.

An individual race for a pro cyclist, even the World Road Race Championship, is just one part of a long season.
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