Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser)

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 12:38 pm

On October 2, 2013, Edwin Rodriguez enrolled in the Voluntary Anti-Doping Agency’s 24-7-365 testing program. That means VADA can demand blood and urine samples from Rodriguez without notice anytime anywhere. In so doing, Edwin followed the lead of Nonito Donaire, who announced in early-2012 that he was unilaterally subjecting himself to year-round PED testing by VADA.

Boxing has a serious PED problem. Under the best of circumstances, trying to catch drug cheats is like designing anti-virus computer software. The cheats are always finding new ways to thwart the system.

In boxing, the system is easy to beat. Most states have drug-testing programs that a high school student could circumvent. Testing on fight night or testing once a fight has been announced is better than no testing, but it’s not enough. A fighter can use PEDs between fights and cycle off when his next fight is signed.

The Damocles Sword of testing by a qualified testing agency 24-7-365 is essential if boxing is to curtail PED use. But with rare exceptions, this testing hasn’t been implemented.

Indeed, one might posit that Rodriguez and Donaire (pictured above, in Chris Farina-Top Rank photo) have put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. Their upcoming opponents have steered clear of 24-7-365 PED testing. That doesn’t mean their opponents are dirty. But it doesn’t inspire confidence that Edwin and Nonito will be in the ring against clean opposition either.

Jim Lampley was once reluctant to call for stringent measures to curtail the use of performance enhancing drugs in boxing. That changed on December 8, 2012, when Manny Pacquiao was brutally knocked out by Juan Manuel Marquez.

“I saw Manny Pacquiao lying face-down on the canvas in front of me,” Lampley recalls. “I thought he might be dead. That imbued me with a sense of urgency on this issue.”

One week later, on the December 15th edition of The Fight Game, Lampley designated Donaire as TFG’s “Fighter of the Year.”
“He committed to random drug testing, 24-7-365 whether he is scheduled to fight or not,” Lampley explained to viewers. “At a moment when, elsewhere in the sport, you can find instances of star fighters who are testing positive for performance enhancing drugs, test results which have allegedly been ignored or suppressed in favor of unobstructed commerce, enforcement efforts which get lost or fall short due to improper scheduling, inadequate testing methods, and bureaucratic incompetence; if you are looking for the ray of hope, the light in the forest, his name is Nonito Donaire.”

On the same telecast, Lampley honored VADA president Margaret Goodman. After referencing VADA’s “state of the art procedures” and “prominent busts” of two elite fighters (Lamont Peterson and Andre Berto), Lampley declared, “It took VADA and Margaret Goodman two fights to establish the will to enforce standards which might help to reverse what many observers now see as an onrushing tide of performance enhancing drugs in boxing. For making her point forcefully, fearlessly, and immediately, Dr. Margaret Goodman is the ‘TFG Person of the Year.’”

One can argue that it’s the responsibility of state athletic commissions, legislators, and promoters to help rid boxing of PEDs. But most of all, it’s the responsibility of THE FIGHTERS and their camps. The fighters are the ones who are at greatest risk.
A fatality would be the most stark evidence of the crisis. But the dangers go far beyond a handful of deaths. Twenty years from now, an entire generation of fighters will have brain damage from having been hit in the head harder than would have been the case without PED use by their opponents.

Thus, it’s worth focusing on Edwin Rodriguez and the laudable commitment to 24-7-365 VADA testing that he recently made.
In August of this year, Rodriguez signed with manager Al Haymon. At least three of Haymon’s fghters (Andre Berto, Antonio Tarver, and J’Leon Love) have tested positive for PEDs in the past.

Another Haymon fighter (Peter Quillin) was enrolled in a USADA testing program prior to his June 2, 2012, fight against Winky Wright. Then, after blood and urine samples were taken from both fighters, Wright was told that the testing had been abandoned and the samples were destroyed.

Haymon also represents Adrien Broner.

Broner, Antonio DeMarco, Golden Boy (Broner’s promoter), and the United States Anti-Doping Agency signed a contract for USADA testing prior to the November 17, 2012, Broner-DeMarco fight. But according to DeMarco, he wasn’t tested by USADA for that bout, nor was Broner.
Then, on June 22, 2013, Broner fought Paulie Malignaggi.

“I wanted VADA testing,” Malignaggi recalls. “And I was told, ‘No, we won’t do VADA. If you insist on VADA, there won’t be a fight.’ Finally, I said, ‘F--- it. I’m getting seven figures. I’ll go ahead and fight.’ Would I have been more confident that Broner was clean if there had been VADA testing? Absolutely.”

Haymon’s flagship fighter, of course, is Floyd Mayweather.

On June 24, 2013, at a media sitdown before the kick-off press conference for Mayweather vs. Canelo Alvarez, Leonard Ellerbe (CEO of Mayweather Promotions) told reporters, “We’ve put in place a mechanism where all Mayweather Promotions fighters will do mandatory blood and urine testing 365-24-7 by USADA.”

USADA declined a request from this writer for comment on the truth of Ellerbe’s contention. Al Haymon also declined comment for this article. And questions remain regarding the issue of whether or not, several years ago, Mayweather “A” samples tested positive on three occasions.

Referencing that issue, Dan Rafael of ESPN.com stated during a November 21, 2012, online chat, “I need to see proof before I accuse somebody of something so serious. What is fact, however, is that the settlement in the Pacquiao-Mayweather lawsuit happened after the Pacquiao camp tried to get Mayweather's USADA testing records. So maybe where there is smoke there is fire.”

So here’s a suggestion. Why doesn’t Floyd Mayweather enroll in VADA’s 24-7-365 program? And let him state publicly, “Any fighter who wants to be eligible to fight me must enroll in VADA’s 24-7-365 program NOW.”

And let’s take it a step further. In addition to Mayweather, Broner, Quillin, Berto, and Love, Al Haymon currently represents Danny Garcia, Devon Alexander, Lucas Matthysse, Marcos Maidana, Leo Santa Cruz, Keith Thurman, Austin Trout, Omar Figueroa, Gary Russell Jr, Sakio Bika, Josesito Lopez, Erislandy Lara, Shawn Porter, Errol Spence, Chris Arreola, Seth Mitchell, and Deontay Wilder.

Let’s assume that all of these fighters are clean. Let them all enter a 24-7-365 VADA testing program. I can’t speak for anyone else. But that would certainly make a believer out of me.

Al and Floyd have enough money to fund it.

It’s easy to talk the talk. Let’s see who walks the walk.

Let’s also remember the thoughts of Jim Lampley, who has warned, “Whatever is the worst thing that can happen as the result of boxers employing modern medical science to strengthen their bodies, it hasn't happened yet. But if nothing is done to further strengthen testing standards and applications, it surely will. And when it does, we won't be complaining anymore that boxing can't find its way into mainstream media. We'll be there in a big way, and in no way to our credit.”

Thomas Hauser can be reached by email at thauser@rcn.com. His most recent book (Straight Writes and Jabs: An Inside Look at Another Year in Boxing) has just been published by the University of Arkansas Press.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 12:42 pm

I watched a Bradley interview this morning where he described being stuck in a no-win situation against Marquez: pull out after Marquez balked at VADA testing and he wouldn't earn (and would likely be scotched from future Top Rank shows), go through with the fight and take the risk that an absence of VADA testing throws up.

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Post by catchweight on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 1:09 pm

Does that mean Mayweather failed three drug tests and it was covered up? Or is it something to do with that stuff he injects into his hands?

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 1:13 pm

catchweight wrote:Does that mean Mayweather failed three drug tests and it was covered up? Or is it something to do with that stuff he injects into his hands?
Nothing proven so no-one knows? There were rumours floating about (apparently) that he'd failed three tests -- think they stemmed from the fact he settled a defamation suit with Pacquiao after Pacquiao's team demanded his USADA results.

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Post by owen10ozzy on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 1:33 pm

The surface has barely been scratched with regards to drugs in boxing; which is a sad state of affairs given the dangers of the sport.

Berto, Peterson, J'Leon Love, Morales, Tarver, just some of the names to have failed test in the past 12 months...worst still lets look at what happened afterwards:

Berto went on to face Guerrero & Karass
Peterson has fought Holt & Matthysse and kept hold of his titles
Morales failed a test before Garcia II but the fight still went ahead

That isn't even touching on the subject of people who have refused to be tested, linked up with former trainers who have actively been involved in previous drug issues or tests that have disappeared/been destroyed.

I've said it before and I will say it again...until someone dies in the ring at the hands of someone who uses drugs to enhance performance nothing will be done and the issue will continue to be swept under the carpet...and what's worse is that even if that does happen 6 months later it will be forgotten and we will be back to square one!

I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!

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Post by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 2:03 pm

owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.

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Post by owen10ozzy on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 2:06 pm

Agreed Cpt - However that doesn't make it right. Sadly you look at everything surrounding him at the moment and it stinks of the use of PED's...I mean I know that the KO punch on Manny was great timing and everything but he was rocking him back well before that with almost everything he threw at him...given he hadn't in any of their previous 3 fights I just don't see how anyone can watch that and not have suspicions!

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 2:07 pm

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
I've always felt there was a bit of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" about the whole conditioner thing. Pacquiao had Ariza, so Marquez saddled up with Heredia.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 2:33 pm

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
Have no doubts it was driven by his desire to even up his chances of beating Manny.........Manny defies convention............

Started at 102 and is more deadly at 147.........

Duran started at 118 and was most deadly as a puncher at 135.............

Give me another fighter that has risen Manny's amount and is more deadly.......You can't..............

I don't buy him.........Not that I'm sure he cares........Although I heard he likes my Curry articles..

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:11 pm

Yeah, he's a one-off. With all of his weight jumping and alphabet titles you must rank him top three do you?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:14 pm

Have I upset you.................

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Post by jimdig on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:35 pm

I would be very surprised if broner wasn't on diet pills, at the start of his training camps. I don't know so much about peds. 24/7 testing would show up all sorts, not beyond the possibilities than some young rich boxers are on recreational drugs on their downtime and don't want the change of lifestyle that would be enforced by 24/7/365 testing.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:36 pm

I'd be surprised If 30% of boxers weren't on them............and I'd be surprised If some of the great names from the 60s/70s and 80s didn't use them...........

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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:48 pm

Every American sportsman from the 1960's onwards potentially used steroids and very significant numbers did.

Boxing is the dirtiest of sports so I have no trouble believing some of the sports biggest stars from the 1960's onwards juiced.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:54 pm

hazharrison wrote:Yeah, he's a one-off. With all of his weight jumping and alphabet titles you must rank him top three do you?
The first four weight lineal world champion before Mayweather matched it against Alvarez.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 3:58 pm

Strongback wrote:Every American sportsman from the 1960's onwards potentially used steroids and very significant numbers did.

Boxing is the dirtiest of sports so I have no trouble believing some of the sports biggest stars from the 1960's onwards juiced.
Well that's that then............

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:04 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
Have no doubts it was driven by his desire to even up his chances of beating Manny.........Manny defies convention............

Started at 102 and is more deadly at 147.........

Duran started at 118 and was most deadly as a puncher at 135.............

Give me another fighter that has risen Manny's amount and is more deadly.......You can't..............

I don't buy him.........Not that I'm sure he cares........Although I heard he likes my Curry articles..
There's as much reasonable suspicion about Manny as their is your precious Floyd.

Manny refused to take the test = Floyd settling a court case rather than provide USADA records.

Smoke both sides.

And the "manny started at 105" argument is the most pony of the lot, classic Mayweather Sr that only true Flomo's follow. He was a 105lb schoolchild for Christ's sake.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:07 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have I upset you.................
Just wondering why you don't rate him alongside Floyd if you place emphasis on weight jumping and "seeking challenges"?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:08 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
Have no doubts it was driven by his desire to even up his chances of beating Manny.........Manny defies convention............

Started at 102 and is more deadly at 147.........

Duran started at 118 and was most deadly as a puncher at 135.............

Give me another fighter that has risen Manny's amount and is more deadly.......You can't..............

I don't buy him.........Not that I'm sure he cares........Although I heard he likes my Curry articles..
There's as much reasonable suspicion about Manny as their is your precious Floyd.

Manny refused to take the test = Floyd settling a court case rather than provide USADA records.

Smoke both sides.

And the "manny started at 105" argument is the most pony of the lot, classic Mayweather Sr that only true Flomo's follow.  He was a 105lb schoolchild for Christ's sake.  
you're right as always...thumbsup  cheers..

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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:11 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Strongback wrote:Every American sportsman from the 1960's onwards potentially used steroids and very significant numbers did.

Boxing is the dirtiest of sports so I have no trouble believing some of the sports biggest stars from the 1960's onwards juiced.
Well that's that then............


Well D-Bol was formulated in America in the late 50's.

I could run through a list of the biggest stars to be caught doping and their nationality but I couldn't be arse'd.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:13 pm

I know when it was formulated............

I'm glad you can't be a***d.......Wish you couldn't be a***d giving an iopinion on most things..

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Post by STC on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:15 pm

Boxing must be full of PEDs. If the testing is substandard then fighters will take advantage of it.

Look at athletics and cycling. EPO was rife in the 90s and 00s. It was rife because the testing was a joke. Now that testing has been increased and become more stringent and biological passports introduced, the numbers of PED users has declined. Pro cyclists are the most tested athletes in sport (even Strongy knows this and he will agree with me) meaning the entire sport has been forced to clean up it's act and the common consensus is that it has.

Boxers are no different to any other athletes. If they can get away with it then they will. With current testing being a bit of a joke it is highly likely that large numbers of fighters have and still do use PEDs.
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Post by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:16 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
Have no doubts it was driven by his desire to even up his chances of beating Manny.........Manny defies convention............

Started at 102 and is more deadly at 147.........

Duran started at 118 and was most deadly as a puncher at 135.............

Give me another fighter that has risen Manny's amount and is more deadly.......You can't..............

I don't buy him.........Not that I'm sure he cares........Although I heard he likes my Curry articles..
Manny's transformation is far less obvious, visually at least. You could argue he was a lean but muscular Philippino boy at 102lbs with probably not great nutrition

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Thepinoywarrior+young+manny+pacquiao

He just looks like a bigger version now that's developed over many years

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Manny-pacquiao

Whereas Marquez went from looking a bit soft

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Floyd+Mayweather+Jr+v+Juan+Manuel+Marquez+bPGM4054PeAl

To being noticeably bigger and absolutely ripped in virtually no time at all

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) JuanManuelMarquez43

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:16 pm

I think diuretics would be the most used illegal substances in Boxing..........Must be a killer for some to make weight.

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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:18 pm

Manny turned pro at 16 and weighed 105 lbs. When Floyd was 16 he weighed 105lbs.

No big mystery. They have both grown, Mayweather more so especially the girth of his head.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:20 pm

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:
owen10ozzy wrote:
I fear for Bradley in the Marquez match up, used to be a huge fan of the Mexican but with his sudden power, entourage in training camps, new found bulk and definition and refusal for tests I can't think any other way than he is cheating!
If Marquez is dirty, I reckon it will have been driven by his desire to beat Pacquiao at any cost. The draw and two "losses" will have pushed him to beat Manny at any cost.
Have no doubts it was driven by his desire to even up his chances of beating Manny.........Manny defies convention............

Started at 102 and is more deadly at 147.........

Duran started at 118 and was most deadly as a puncher at 135.............

Give me another fighter that has risen Manny's amount and is more deadly.......You can't..............

I don't buy him.........Not that I'm sure he cares........Although I heard he likes my Curry articles..
Manny's transformation is far less obvious, visually at least. You could argue he was a lean but muscular Philippino boy at 102lbs with probably not great nutrition

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Thepinoywarrior+young+manny+pacquiao

He just looks like a bigger version now that's developed over many years

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Manny-pacquiao

Whereas Marquez went from looking a bit soft

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) Floyd+Mayweather+Jr+v+Juan+Manuel+Marquez+bPGM4054PeAl

To being noticeably bigger and absolutely ripped in virtually no time at all

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) JuanManuelMarquez43
Interesting photos but I imagine it's all dependent on the exercises they do at the gym as to how the muscle is distributed.......and the body itself..

frank zane could never look like Arnie.........But good pictures Mate.

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Post by STC on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:23 pm

I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:31 pm

STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth. He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.

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Post by STC on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:40 pm

Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth.  He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.  
Yeah I agree. It's not like he did it overnight, and as you say, for the Mayweather fight it was clear he had piled on the weight but was still a lightweight. The last couple of years he's put on the additional muscle mass. I don't see the problem.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:46 pm

Strongback wrote:Manny turned pro at 16 and weighed 105 lbs.  When Floyd was 16 he weighed 105lbs.

No big mystery. They have both grown, Mayweather more so especially the girth of his head.
Not difficult, is it?

It's just the Mayweather Sr nuthuggers that seem to have an issue.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:48 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Strongback wrote:Manny turned pro at 16 and weighed 105 lbs.  When Floyd was 16 he weighed 105lbs.

No big mystery. They have both grown, Mayweather more so especially the girth of his head.
Not difficult, is it?

It's just the Mayweather Sr nuthuggers that seem to have an issue.
Absolutely right ...as always..thumbsup 

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Post by J.Benson II on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:50 pm

You guys surely should have figured out by now that almost all boxers are on drugs?
Hey, if its rife amongst guys who are barely semi-pro's, just imagine how rampant it must at the very higest level of the sport.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:52 pm

To be honest there are people on here who haven't taken them...........spouting garbage...

I've taken them and know how good they are and the huge power they bring in a short space of time..

I agree benson that a lot of fighters are on the stuff.

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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 4:58 pm

STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth.  He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.  
Yeah I agree. It's not like he did it overnight, and as you say, for the Mayweather fight it was clear he had piled on the weight but was still a lightweight. The last couple of years he's put on the additional muscle mass. I don't see the problem.

Age would be one question mark. Why has he been able to get into the best shape of his life when most are a decade past their best.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:06 pm

Maybe Lewis should get on the phone to him for his comeback....

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Post by STC on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:10 pm

Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth.  He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.  
Yeah I agree. It's not like he did it overnight, and as you say, for the Mayweather fight it was clear he had piled on the weight but was still a lightweight. The last couple of years he's put on the additional muscle mass. I don't see the problem.
Age would be one question mark.  Why has he been able to get into the best shape of his life when most are a decade past their best.
Genetics?

Healthy living?

Unrelenting determination to beat Manny Pacquiao?

I don't know. Interesting point though.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:34 pm

Edwin Rodriguez, PEDs, and Al Haymon (by Thomas Hauser) 008-pacquiao-marquez
STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth.  He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.  
Yeah I agree. It's not like he did it overnight, and as you say, for the Mayweather fight it was clear he had piled on the weight but was still a lightweight. The last couple of years he's put on the additional muscle mass. I don't see the problem.
Age would be one question mark.  Why has he been able to get into the best shape of his life when most are a decade past their best.
Genetics?

Healthy living?

Unrelenting determination to beat Manny Pacquiao?

I don't know. Interesting point though.
Guy moves up is fat and slightly slower, gets in better shape for Pac and still gets robbed so spends a year packing on the muscle and is more powerful but slower - to the point Pacquiao looks the best he has for many fights and the best he's looked against Marquez since round 1 of their first fight. Manny charges in and lets his guard down only to get hit by a perfect shot and is knocked out cold. Except....

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1847545/marquez_against_mayweather.jpg


http://www.interaksyon.com/interaktv/photos/boxing/pacquiao-marquez-3-weigh-in---11122011/008-pacquiao-marquez/

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1847553/Marquez_against_Pacquiao.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sbnation.com/2012/12/7/3742300/pacquiao-vs-marquez-4-weigh-in-photos&h=732&w=1100&sz=365&tbnid=RC51cep1rmx0RM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__5hYbJkjGUrg7SWkcZ6lfmnhRt3A=&docid=wO0CvA23TpyAeM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e9RWUsDbK-Op4gS6voCoDQ&ved=0CCwQ9QEwAA

Can you see any noticeable difference between 3 and 4?

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Post by oxring on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:38 pm

Looks more defined for fight 4 than 3.  I was more toned when competing in 2009 than in 2008.  Clearly proof I was juicing.

Have a friend who at fighting weight is more toned than Marquez in 4.  Does that mean he's juicing as well?

Sad thing is - he may well be cheating and his subsequent actions have done little to remove suspicion from his shoulders. I am clinging to the idea of innocent until proven guilty - but what was once a comfortable rock feels somewhat more precarious a position now.
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Post by J.Benson II on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:49 pm

You can obviously tell that some guys are juicing just by having one look at their physique (numerous HW's spring to mind).

But you can't always go just by appearence.

All these guys below were juiced to their gills:

http://markatlarge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/lance-armstrong-shirtless-Doaping-Markatlarge.jpg

http://www.globerunner.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Ben-Johnson.jpeg

http://www.5thround.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FormerUFCHeavyweightChampTimSylvia.jpg

You wouldnt really tell by looking at them though, would you?

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Post by Strongback on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 6:42 pm

STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:
Strongback wrote:
STC wrote:I hardly think Marquez, a professional athlete, would need PEDs to put on a few pounds in muscle mass. I can do it with weights and eating a lot of chicken.

It's more likely that he's using EPO.

When I say likely, I mean as likely as any other top pro fighter.
The weight Marquez gained to fight Floyd made him thick waisted and smooth.  He's obviously not like that now. I think he's built up his strength and lean muscle tissue quite a bit.  
Yeah I agree. It's not like he did it overnight, and as you say, for the Mayweather fight it was clear he had piled on the weight but was still a lightweight. The last couple of years he's put on the additional muscle mass. I don't see the problem.
Age would be one question mark.  Why has he been able to get into the best shape of his life when most are a decade past their best.
Genetics?

Healthy living?

Unrelenting determination to beat Manny Pacquiao?

I don't know. Interesting point though.
It's definitely a combination of those things. He's keeping bad company though. Lie with dogs and you get fleas.

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