Are the Unions damaging Labour's chance of election in 2015?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 31 Oct 2013, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

The multitude of examples of disgraceful behaviour by Trade Unions over the past year have really started to show them up as the evil bully-boys they are.

Latest example being the vicious targeting of the wives and children of Ineos managers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24758166

Question is, will this start to hurt Labour's chances of election in 2015?

Clearly formerly 'Red' Ed is concerned as he's taken steps to distance himself from both their antics and the Unions themselves, surely all this negativity will have to bite at some point? This could be the last thing Labour's already dwindling opinion poll leads need - could 2014 be the year of the turning point re public opinion or the main two parties??

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 10:57 am

sodhat wrote:I'd like to think it was impossible because no-one would actually punch someone with down syndrome.

Obviously don't keep your findings to yourself.
I think it is because they have extraordinary strength. Google brought no joy other than ESPN taking a bit of criticism because they were going to film one in a cage fight.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:14 am

First time in 7 months Labour have polled over 40% in three Yougov polls in a row.........

Unions are killing them......Rolling Eyes 

Europe and Unions don't sell in Voting intention........So don't buy any Election shares in them..Wink Cool 

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Post by sodhat on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:24 am

Stop derailing the thread, Truss.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:28 am

As with all statistics it is subject to sample bias though. This was based on less than 1,900 people out of a voting population of, what, 50 million maybe??

And only 267 were from London, the city that's recovered the strongest/most from the recession (what recession?) and is basically bankrolling the rest of the country with the tax it pays.

Also, you still haven't explained why vote share is so important in a FTPT system as opposed to PR??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:37 am

sodhat wrote:Stop derailing the thread, Truss.
Do you know what the thread is about..........Being sarcastic or are you dumb ?

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:38 am

Laugh 

You gotta love Truss. Big ambling buffoon that he is.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 11:39 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:As with all statistics it is subject to sample bias though.  This was based on less than 1,900 people out of a voting population of, what, 50 million maybe??

And only 267 were from London, the city that's recovered the strongest/most from the recession (what recession?) and is basically bankrolling the rest of the country with the tax it pays.

Also, you still haven't explained why vote share is so important in a FTPT system as opposed to PR??
Polls have a habit of being right within a 3 point margin of error........

You were making a big deal when the Tories closed the gap in the polls........

Can't have it both ways.......

Remember it's the SHARE!!Cool Cool  ..........Not the LEAD.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 12:11 pm

Except the lead is indicative of whether a majority will be secured, which is what is important in FPTP.

SHARE would be all conquering if we had PR, but we don't.

6 point lead is consistent and unless the share gets well ahead of 40% Labour won't be taking a sufficient majority to win outright.

And that's IGNORING sample bias and the fact the GE is still 18 MONTHS away.

18 months ago the Tories were in the absolute sh!tter, now, whether you like it or not, the picture is much rosier.

What'll it be like in 18 months? Frankly, I haven't a clue!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 12:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:As with all statistics it is subject to sample bias though.  This was based on less than 1,900 people out of a voting population of, what, 50 million maybe??

And only 267 were from London, the city that's recovered the strongest/most from the recession (what recession?) and is basically bankrolling the rest of the country with the tax it pays.

Also, you still haven't explained why vote share is so important in a FTPT system as opposed to PR??
Polls have a habit of being right within a 3 point margin of error........

Just realised on re-reading, 3 point margin of error = actual lead/share difference could be zero.....

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 12:31 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:As with all statistics it is subject to sample bias though.  This was based on less than 1,900 people out of a voting population of, what, 50 million maybe??

And only 267 were from London, the city that's recovered the strongest/most from the recession (what recession?) and is basically bankrolling the rest of the country with the tax it pays.

Also, you still haven't explained why vote share is so important in a FTPT system as opposed to PR??
London has recovered the strongest from the recession? Perhaps in terms of tax contribution, but not in terms of the lives of everyday Londoners. Not by a long shot.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:00 pm

I imagine the hospitals will be full too.......When Grandma can't afford to heat her house.....and has to decide between eating and being warm......

Let's hope it's not a cold winter........

Banker's bonuses went up 91% I see...........

But I agree with the Op on it being a hung parliament........

Not sure the Libs can go in with the Tories again though..........

Be a right wing revolt..........

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:03 pm

really??

have you been to London recently?

every bar is busy, every restaurant has long queues or needs reserving weeks in advance, west end shows are all selling out, new businesses are starting up all over the places, hundreds a week at times, house prices are flying, wages on the up and up for a huge number of people, the list goes on......

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:04 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I imagine the hospitals will be full too.......When Grandma can't afford to heat her house.....and has to decide between eating and being warm......

Let's hope it's not a cold winter........

Banker's bonuses went up 91% I see...........

But I agree with the Op on it being a hung parliament........

Not sure the Libs can go in with the Tories again though..........

Be a right wing revolt..........
you LITERALLY believe everything the left tells you, don't you??

#sheep #baaaaa

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:07 pm

I literally am worried thousands of Pensioners are in real danger of choosing between eating and heating.........

I make up my own mind on things......Thankyou.......

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:11 pm

Didn't realise the Winter Fuel Payment had been scrapped.....

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:17 pm

Turns out I was wrong about the economy.

Britain is the fastest growing economy in the world, doing better than the USA.

Of course, in about 20 years time, Britain wil be the strongest economy in Europe outright. With the Euro dragging Europe down (but not Britannia because Lady Thatcher stood her ground), and Germany about to hit a Japan-style crisis with an ageing population, there's no stopping this fair island.

Then, with America facing ridiculous levels of debt and on the verge of a Soviet-style collapse, Britain could very well be the strongest economy in the Western world in 50 years time. Their political system is a shambles.

And with China having a severe male-female population inbalance, they will collapse at around the same time as America. Population and labour problems abound.

Then there's India, still reliant on foreign aid (despite their space program), and with a severe defiency on education, sanitation, food and water, their economy won't last the distance.

It'll be up to Britain to lead the world into a new super-age, just like all those centuries ago when she industrialised the world, abolished slavery and defeated Napoleon. She just needs to get a handle on immigration, abolish the multicultural system in place, defeat the EU...and wait. If the Tories win the next election, the world is at Britain's feet, and the Empire shall rise once more.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:25 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:really??

have you been to London recently?

every bar is busy, every restaurant has long queues or needs reserving weeks in advance, west end shows are all selling out, new businesses are starting up all over the places, hundreds a week at times, house prices are flying, wages on the up and up for a huge number of people, the list goes on......
I work in London.

What you are pointing out doesn't actually mean much. They're all anecdotes which don't speak about the lives of the majority of Londoners. The crash saw income disparity increase (which is more noticeable in London than elsewhere) - this may well explain the various examples you've pointed to. The rich are richer while most people are struggling.

House prices, which you point to as a positive indicator, are actually harming Londoners. Those who can afford to buy (not many), are only able to buy shoe boxes. Those who rent privately are seeing their living standards fall due to the rising rental costs.

As for wages going up - I'm not aware of any data that says that. The most recent data I've seen from the ONS (up to 2012) suggests that the median income in London has been flat since 2009. This comes despite increasing household costs.

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Post by Rowley on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:29 pm

In all fairness Beadle, not sure any of what you have mentioned impacts on the rich so am not sure it is too relevant.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:30 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Didn't realise the Winter Fuel Payment had been scrapped.....
You didn't realise the Tories had to be seven points ahead...That Unions come near to last in voting intention or that it's the Vote share that's most important when analysing polls..

Thank goodness you have me to educate you.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:32 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:really??

have you been to London recently?

every bar is busy, every restaurant has long queues or needs reserving weeks in advance, west end shows are all selling out, new businesses are starting up all over the places, hundreds a week at times, house prices are flying, wages on the up and up for a huge number of people, the list goes on......
I work in London.

What you are pointing out doesn't actually mean much. They're all anecdotes which don't speak about the lives of the majority of Londoners. The crash saw income disparity increase (which is more noticeable in London than elsewhere) - this may well explain the various examples you've pointed to. The rich are richer while most people are struggling.

House prices, which you point to as a positive indicator, are actually harming Londoners. Those who can afford to buy (not many), are only able to buy shoe boxes. Those who rent privately are seeing their living standards fall due to the rising rental costs.

As for wages going up - I'm not aware of any data that says that. The most recent data I've seen from the ONS (up to 2012) suggests that the median income in London has been flat since 2009. This comes despite increasing household costs.
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up. That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Didn't realise the Winter Fuel Payment had been scrapped.....
You didn't realise the Tories had to be seven points ahead...That Unions come near to last in voting intention or that it's the Vote share that's most important when analysing polls..

Thank goodness you have me to educate you.
You still haven't explained why vote share is the most important when analysing polls in a FTPT system though, you've just repeated the point ad nauseum.

Maybe a framework example will assist you:

Scenario A - Labour poll 40%; Tories poll 40%; the Greens, LD's, BNP, UKIP and SNP each share the remainder with 4% each.
Scenario B - Labour poll 40%; Tories poll 20%; other six poll the remainder equally.

If I were Labour, I'd much prefer Scenario B, but by your reckoning SHARE is all that matters therefore the scenarios are equally attractive. So what's the answer?

Also, did you miss the sarcasm re WFP??


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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:44 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But it's central London. Of course they are packed, it still doesn't mean it is representative of the majority. I'm sure the bars in central Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/Leeds are all pretty full, it is not representative of the rest of those cities though.

No-one is saying you have to be poor or hard-up to be normal, but neither are the people frequenting these packed out bars 'normal' either.

Poor post, TopHat. You're better than that.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:45 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:really??

have you been to London recently?

every bar is busy, every restaurant has long queues or needs reserving weeks in advance, west end shows are all selling out, new businesses are starting up all over the places, hundreds a week at times, house prices are flying, wages on the up and up for a huge number of people, the list goes on......
I work in London.

What you are pointing out doesn't actually mean much. They're all anecdotes which don't speak about the lives of the majority of Londoners. The crash saw income disparity increase (which is more noticeable in London than elsewhere) - this may well explain the various examples you've pointed to. The rich are richer while most people are struggling.

House prices, which you point to as a positive indicator, are actually harming Londoners. Those who can afford to buy (not many), are only able to buy shoe boxes. Those who rent privately are seeing their living standards fall due to the rising rental costs.

As for wages going up - I'm not aware of any data that says that. The most recent data I've seen from the ONS (up to 2012) suggests that the median income in London has been flat since 2009. This comes despite increasing household costs.
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But what you've done is make a completely unverified and unverifiable statement based on your own observation. I'm not suggesting that people are so poor that they can't afford to go out. What I am suggesting is that a) the average person has not seen their income increase either before or after inflation, and b) any slight economic upturn has not improved the standard of living for most people. That's backed up by ONS data.

Your last paragraph is pretty much an ad hominem attack (and a strawman too, at that), devoid of any content. Any criticism of inequality is too often met by the idea that it's about punishing hard work. The problem with that stance is that it implies financial reward is the sole measure of hard work.


Last edited by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar corrected)

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:47 pm

That's what I tried to say, only with much less eloquence and intellect.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:49 pm

I just googled 'ad hominem' as well.

That's what I love about this place, you're never too old to stop learning.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:50 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But it's central London.  Of course they are packed, it still doesn't mean it is representative of the majority.  I'm sure the bars in central Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/Leeds are all pretty full, it is not representative of the rest of those cities though.

No-one is saying you have to be poor or hard-up to be normal, but neither are the people frequenting these packed out bars 'normal' either.

Poor post, TopHat.  You're better than that.
Disagree on that point, plenty on here certainly do. Truss being a prime example.

But yes, it was a crudely made point, borne out of frustration of the backwards modern attitude towards financial success. No wonder drive and positivity are proving so hard to instill in kids when anything from good grades to being a higher-rate tax-payer is so heavily stigmatised. All this does is polarise communities further.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 1:55 pm

I never said that............You're saying a lot of b*****t to try to dig yourself out of a hole.....

Sad. pitiful misrepresentation and very predictable.

Middle classes feel the squeeze.............Elections are won with middle class votes......

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:01 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But it's central London.  Of course they are packed, it still doesn't mean it is representative of the majority.  I'm sure the bars in central Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/Leeds are all pretty full, it is not representative of the rest of those cities though.

No-one is saying you have to be poor or hard-up to be normal, but neither are the people frequenting these packed out bars 'normal' either.

Poor post, TopHat.  You're better than that.
Disagree on that point, plenty on here certainly do. Truss being a prime example.

But yes, it was a crudely made point, borne out of frustration of the backwards modern attitude towards financial success.  No wonder drive and positivity are proving so hard to instill in kids when anything from good grades to being a higher-rate tax-payer is so heavily stigmatised.  All this does is polarise communities further.
Again, this is completely fallacious reasoning. How can you talk about a 'backwards attitude towards financial success' (which is an extremely value-laden way of phrasing it), in a society where inequality is growing? How are higher rate tax payers stigmatised?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I never said that............You're saying a lot of b*****t to try to dig yourself out of a hole.....

Sad. pitiful misrepresentation and very predictable.

Middle classes feel the squeeze.............Elections are won with middle class votes......
Have plenty of times in the past, have picked you up on it before.

Anyways, back to that poll share under FPTP question.......??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:07 pm

That is a statement you can't backup.........and couldn't If you could.......

I could say you are a racist..........You've made statements before blah blah blah...

Have I told you labour's lead is double in marginals........= 12 points..

But like I said it's the share not the lead..........

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:10 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But it's central London.  Of course they are packed, it still doesn't mean it is representative of the majority.  I'm sure the bars in central Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/Leeds are all pretty full, it is not representative of the rest of those cities though.

No-one is saying you have to be poor or hard-up to be normal, but neither are the people frequenting these packed out bars 'normal' either.

Poor post, TopHat.  You're better than that.
Disagree on that point, plenty on here certainly do. Truss being a prime example.

But yes, it was a crudely made point, borne out of frustration of the backwards modern attitude towards financial success.  No wonder drive and positivity are proving so hard to instill in kids when anything from good grades to being a higher-rate tax-payer is so heavily stigmatised.  All this does is polarise communities further.
Again, this is completely fallacious reasoning. How can you talk about a 'backwards attitude towards financial success' (which is an extremely value-laden way of phrasing it), in a society where inequality is growing? How are higher rate tax payers stigmatised?
If you can't see the social stigma then you're blind to it. It's a bit like how the DM used to find a way to blame literally anything and everything on immigrants etc, nowadays literally every societal ill is blamed on 'the rich' and in particular 'bankers' which is a horrendously ignorant phrase born out of bone-idle ignorance. It's never "well I could do this better or that better or maybe I should try this or that to improve my situation", it's always "bloody bankers have ruined it for everyone, I can't do anything because nobody is handing me it on a plate, if only the rich paid more in taxes we'd all be better off".

The rich are paying more now than they ever did under Labour, but still that's insufficient poundage of flesh. Someone could be dirt poor and everyone is full of sympathy for them and wants to fight their battles. That person comes up with an idea, executes it, builds a business, ends up a 6 figure CEO and then maybe sells it for millions and suddenly they're lumped in with the 'evil rich'.

See the aforementioned example of the three mothers who just lost the benefit cap court case. £35k pa for doing nothing and they claimed it would leave them destitute??!!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:11 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That is a statement you can't backup.........and couldn't If you could.......

I could say you are a racist..........You've made statements before blah blah blah...

Have I told you labour's lead is double in marginals........= 12 points..

But like I said it's the share not the lead..........
Yes, I realise you "said it's the share not the lead". You've said it about 500 times already.

But still not said WHY it's the share not the lead, in the context of FPTP. 40:40 vs 40:20 - which one is better??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:17 pm

The share is most important because it shows how strong the vote is.......

The polls show Labour aren't shifting from 36-40.........Since 2011.......

Hence we can see that the Tories close the gap depending on UKIP/LIB perception.......

We are talking about polls not results.........

Labour stay at 35+ the Tories can't win.......

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 2:26 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Wow, this 'majority' must be absolutely bleeding huge then if such a tiny minority is managing to pack out every bar, club, restaurant and theatre in central London.

Or maybe it's back to that old chestnut of only being considered 'normal' if you're poor and hard-up.  That wonderfully modern-British reverse-snobbery towards hard work and success.
But it's central London.  Of course they are packed, it still doesn't mean it is representative of the majority.  I'm sure the bars in central Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham/Leeds are all pretty full, it is not representative of the rest of those cities though.

No-one is saying you have to be poor or hard-up to be normal, but neither are the people frequenting these packed out bars 'normal' either.

Poor post, TopHat.  You're better than that.
Disagree on that point, plenty on here certainly do. Truss being a prime example.

But yes, it was a crudely made point, borne out of frustration of the backwards modern attitude towards financial success.  No wonder drive and positivity are proving so hard to instill in kids when anything from good grades to being a higher-rate tax-payer is so heavily stigmatised.  All this does is polarise communities further.
Again, this is completely fallacious reasoning. How can you talk about a 'backwards attitude towards financial success' (which is an extremely value-laden way of phrasing it), in a society where inequality is growing? How are higher rate tax payers stigmatised?
If you can't see the social stigma then you're blind to it.  It's a bit like how the DM used to find a way to blame literally anything and everything on immigrants etc, nowadays literally every societal ill is blamed on 'the rich' and in particular 'bankers' which is a horrendously ignorant phrase born out of bone-idle ignorance.  It's never "well I could do this better or that better or maybe I should try this or that to improve my situation", it's always "bloody bankers have ruined it for everyone, I can't do anything because nobody is handing me it on a plate, if only the rich paid more in taxes we'd all be better off".

The rich are paying more now than they ever did under Labour, but still that's insufficient poundage of flesh.  Someone could be dirt poor and everyone is full of sympathy for them and wants to fight their battles.  That person comes up with an idea, executes it, builds a business, ends up a 6 figure CEO and then maybe sells it for millions and suddenly they're lumped in with the 'evil rich'.  

See the aforementioned example of the three mothers who just lost the benefit cap court case.  £35k pa for doing nothing and they claimed it would leave them destitute??!!
None of what your saying actually stands up to scrutiny.

"The rich are paying more now than they ever did under Labour, but still that's insufficient poundage of flesh."

Then how do you explain increasing inequality? Perhaps they are paying more, but they're doing so from a bigger share of the pie. That's the real issue.

"Higher rate tax-payers are stigmatised"

To support this, you cite the fact that bankers are stigmatised. However, that proves nothing about higher rate tax payers as a general group. Bankers aren't stigmatised because they are rich. They are stigmatised for unethical behaviour. Ironically, you are guilty of committing just this fallacy in reverse when considering the poor. Some people are poor because they are lazy, therefore all poor people are lazy.

You consistently equate hard-work with financial reward. You offer no support for this view, however.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:09 pm

It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it. The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point. Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:12 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
Just give up, you lost the debate.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:32 pm

Give up? If only you'd done the same we might still have a N&CA section.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:33 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10368203/Top-earners-to-pay-third-of-all-income-tax-despite-rate-cut.html

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:35 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
Just give up, you lost the debate.
Have to give him credit though for trying........

If Richie woodhall was his brother it would be 114-114........a draw.Wink Cool 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:43 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10368203/Top-earners-to-pay-third-of-all-income-tax-despite-rate-cut.html
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:The rich are paying more now than they ever did under Labour, but still that's insufficient poundage of flesh."

Then how do you explain increasing inequality? Perhaps they are paying more, but they're doing so from a bigger share of the pie. That's the real issue.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:44 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
Just give up, you lost the debate.
Have to give him credit though for trying........

If Richie woodhall was his brother it would be 114-114........a draw.Wink Cool 
hahaha


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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 3:51 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.
Other things being the same, the one would equate to the other. Of course, other things aren't the same. The combined share of income of the richest 1% is at its highest since about 1930, and is on its way up. In 1997 the average income of the top 0.1% was £650k. By 2007 that doubled to £1.2m For the top 1% that increase was £250k to £450k. Meanwhile the average of the bottom 90 percentiles increased from £10k to £12k.

You are trying to argue that richer people are being stigmatised based on their tax bills. However, as the link you've provided shows, they are actually paying LESS in tax as a proportion of their incomes. The increase in total take is purely due to the increase in inequality (or perhaps a decrease in avoidance).

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 4:48 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:It would stand up to scrutiny if I could find the newspaper article that quoted the ONS/HMRC statistics on it.  The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.

Your response actually reinforces my point.  Even when you tacitly accept the above point, you still bash them for not paying enough.

Also, I've specifically avoided equating hard-work with financial reward in my last few posts after it was picked up on and have restricted myself to the phrase 'financial success'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/tax/10368203/Top-earners-to-pay-third-of-all-income-tax-despite-rate-cut.html
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:The rich are paying more now than they ever did under Labour, but still that's insufficient poundage of flesh."

Then how do you explain increasing inequality? Perhaps they are paying more, but they're doing so from a bigger share of the pie. That's the real issue.
The concept of a percentage beyond you, C_S?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 4:52 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.
Other things being the same, the one would equate to the other. Of course, other things aren't the same. The combined share of income of the richest 1% is at its highest since about 1930, and is on its way up. In 1997 the average income of the top 0.1% was £650k. By 2007 that doubled to £1.2m For the top 1% that increase was £250k to £450k. Meanwhile the average of the bottom 90 percentiles increased from £10k to £12k.

You are trying to argue that richer people are being stigmatised based on their tax bills. However, as the link you've provided shows, they are actually paying LESS in tax as a proportion of their incomes. The increase in total take is purely due to the increase in inequality (or perhaps a decrease in avoidance).
It doesn't just describe total take though. It shows proportion of total take. How much should the top 1% pay of the country's total tax bill? They pay 30% now, something like 20% under Labour (without back-checking the article). 50% maybe? 100% so that none of the rest of us have to pay anything at all??

At some point the Laffer Curve concept will always kick in.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 5:03 pm

They should nationalise accountancy. Watch the tax gap disappear

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 5:20 pm

In fairness, I would agree with you in so far as statutory functions are concerned - i.e. audit of public companies.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 5:48 pm

and private ones. I dont care how much people earn from owning companies that aren't a necessity (electricity,water etc) but just pay your fair share of tax and everything will be ok. Just out of interest - the big 6 ownership of the wholesale and overcharging for the resource = tax fraud as well as a cartel/monopoly in the same vein as starbucks?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 5:57 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.
Other things being the same, the one would equate to the other. Of course, other things aren't the same. The combined share of income of the richest 1% is at its highest since about 1930, and is on its way up. In 1997 the average income of the top 0.1% was £650k. By 2007 that doubled to £1.2m For the top 1% that increase was £250k to £450k. Meanwhile the average of the bottom 90 percentiles increased from £10k to £12k.

You are trying to argue that richer people are being stigmatised based on their tax bills. However, as the link you've provided shows, they are actually paying LESS in tax as a proportion of their incomes. The increase in total take is purely due to the increase in inequality (or perhaps a decrease in avoidance).
It doesn't just describe total take though.  It shows proportion of total take.  How much should the top 1% pay of the country's total tax bill? They pay 30% now, something like 20% under Labour (without back-checking the article). 50% maybe? 100% so that none of the rest of us have to pay anything at all??

At some point the Laffer Curve concept will always kick in.
Are you arguing that the super rich's tax bill has increased and the reason is NOT because the gap between the rich and the poor has gotten wider resulting in the super rich having more income that can be taxed?


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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 6:05 pm

People who earn less than the rich need to just get over it. I don't earn anything close to the figures quoted, and I don't think they should have to pay obscene amounts like the 75% tax in France.

I try hard to better myself, get good experience in the hope that one day I might earn the astronomical amounts they do. People need to have this attitude.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 06 Nov 2013, 6:28 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:The top 1% pays both a larger amount of tax AND a higher proportion of total tax receipts now than they ever did under Labour.
Other things being the same, the one would equate to the other. Of course, other things aren't the same. The combined share of income of the richest 1% is at its highest since about 1930, and is on its way up. In 1997 the average income of the top 0.1% was £650k. By 2007 that doubled to £1.2m For the top 1% that increase was £250k to £450k. Meanwhile the average of the bottom 90 percentiles increased from £10k to £12k.

You are trying to argue that richer people are being stigmatised based on their tax bills. However, as the link you've provided shows, they are actually paying LESS in tax as a proportion of their incomes. The increase in total take is purely due to the increase in inequality (or perhaps a decrease in avoidance).
It doesn't just describe total take though.  It shows proportion of total take.  How much should the top 1% pay of the country's total tax bill? They pay 30% now, something like 20% under Labour (without back-checking the article). 50% maybe? 100% so that none of the rest of us have to pay anything at all??

At some point the Laffer Curve concept will always kick in.
Are you arguing that the super rich's tax bill has increased and the reason is NOT because the gap between the rich and the poor has gotten wider resulting in the super rich having more income that can be taxed?

I'm stating that the PROPORTION, not just gross volume, of total tax paid by the top 1% is now 30% as opposed to circa 20% under Labour a no, this isn't all explained by increasing income equality.

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