Joe Louis: Why does the majority of this forum not have him as a top 10 ATG ?

[Rodney]

First topic message reminder :

Always surprised when 606v2 compile their p4p ATG lists and Louis ranks well below Ali and rarely features in the top 10. It isn't a common trend most forums and historians have Louis as a shoo in. The UK seem to have a love in with Mayweather who gets vastly overrated and gets placed as a top 10 ATG.
The naked eye proves Joe Louis as a near perfect technician for a boxer , Freddie Roach recently described him as the best text book fighter ever witnessed.

Louis fought in a period where the number of fighters registered was an all time high. Louis does have the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class. Louis lost once 18 months after his professional debut and twice when he was an empty shell. It must be noted that all these losses were against fighters who won the lineal title independantly of their fight with Louis. In between the Schmeling loss and the Charles loss you have a 15 year period where Louis's only questionable decision is a close split decision win over future champion Jersey Joe Walcott at the tail end of his career. In that period he defended his title a record number of times against the Rings no 1 contender.

Surely as a pioneer of boxing, the footage we have and the remarkable record , Louis is a top 10 ATG.

Cheers Rodders

[hazharrison]

This thread is a monument to how the witless few drag down this forum (if it is a few - hard to believe there are a handful of posters that clueless with the same warped agendas).

What do you mean by warped agenda? Not rating Louis as high s you want us to is warped? I tell you what is warped and practically insulting to boxing is to rate Louis near Ali.

I really couldn't give a s*** where you rate anyone - your opinion isn't one I would take very seriously at all.

[azania]

This thread is a monument to how the witless few drag down this forum (if it is a few - hard to believe there are a handful of posters that clueless with the same warped agendas).

What do you mean by warped agenda? Not rating Louis as high s you want us to is warped? I tell you what is warped and practically insulting to boxing is to rate Louis near Ali.

I really couldn't give a s*** where you rate anyone - your opinion isn't one I would take very seriously at all.

Fine. But that wasn't the main question.

[Strongback]

I remember when 3 men and a dog posted on this board. Traffic is better even if all of it isn't great.


I'll leave it to your imagination who the dog is.

[azania]

You probably think the dog has aliases here. Paranoid mate.

[Strongback]

You probably think the dog has aliases here. Paranoid mate.

There is something going on. Who do you think is Lance by the way?

[azania]

I think Lance is Lance. Even if he isn't, why should anyone care? Paranoid.

[oxring]

Didn't Joe Louis drink whiskey between rounds, train in a pub by butting a speedball before making Don King look like Gandhi?

As I understand it, that is why he's not top 10.

That, or whilst stylistically, he has the tools to make him competitive with any heavyweight in history, his record, through no fault of his own, is simply inadequate to compete with the records/achievments of the likes of Robbo/Armstrong/Pep/Fitzsimmons/Wilde/Charles/Walcott/Ali (in no particular order btw). In some respects, he will always be a poor man's Duran in an all time stake - Duran had the lengthy period of dominance and overcame his main challenger in decisive fashion, for deJesus read Schmeling. Duran had Leonard, Hagler, Barkley, Cuevas; nights of glory at higher weights. Louis was always denied this opportunity.

[TopHat24/7]

You probably think the dog has aliases here. Paranoid mate.

There is something going on.  Who do you think is Lance by the way?

Don't remember anyone else professing to being friends with Hoppo (and consequently blowing billows of smoke up his arris) so, as Azania says, I think he's himself, so to speak.

[Rowley]

Robinson
Armstrong
Greb
Langford
Ali
Fitzsimmons
Charles
B Leonard
R Leonard
Gans

That is why Louis does not get in for me. Cannot find a reason why Joe deserves to be above any of the ten named above.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Glad to see you don't have Duran top 10 either...........

This whole dominated an era stuff is misleading..............

Means we'd have to have guys like Jeffries above Salvador Sanchez.........Who never fought his greatest rival and fellow titlist great Pedroza.......

Sanchez had a wonderful record and is top 20 for me all day long.......

Rowley isn't a Pep fan..

[Rowley]

Pep is a bit of a blind spot for me Truss, him and Jofre are guys I really need to learn more about before I start chucking them in such lists.

[hazharrison]

Robinson
Armstrong
Greb
Langford
Ali
Fitzsimmons
Charles
B Leonard
R Leonard
Gans

That is why Louis does not get in for me. Cannot find a reason why Joe deserves to be above any of the ten named above.

Solid, solid list man. I'd have Pep there -- possibly at the expense of Fitzimmons (but like you with Pep, I don't know enough about Fitz).

[Strongback]

I wouldn't have the Leonards above Louis but the rest of Jeff's list is pretty much as I see it.


Its hard for us to look back 70 or 80 years but if we can we see in Louis a sports star bigger than Michael Jordan or Tiger woods in their heydays. The two quintessential American sports hero's of the first half of the 20th century are Babe Ruth and Joe Louis. I am told by my father and father-in-law, who rememer Louis, that he was a much bigger star than Sugar Ray Robinson.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Mike Tyson is a huge sports star..........Biggest in the last 30 years in Boxing..

let's stick him in the top 10........

[Rodney]

Nice list Jeff , where would Louis feature ? If Ali is 5 I'd have to have Louis glued to he's hip. Nice pick for Gans mate

Cheers Rodders

[Rowley]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Duran above Louis for me..

[Strongback]

Mike Tyson is a huge sports star..........Biggest in the last 30 years in Boxing..

let's stick him in the top 10........

Tyson was more notorious than famous for his exploits in the ring. Tyson's prime was a very short period and he made more headlines for a raping a teenager.

Louis made his name as a sportsman. He was never a great talker or self-publicist.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Bullcrap..

Tyson dominated his division.............

[Strongback]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

I would have Benny Leonard ahead of Ray Leonard. To my eyes Benny was the most ring intelligent fighter that ever stepped through the ropes. Everything he did was carefully considered and he rarely made mistakes. The most adaptable fighter of all time. In or just out of my Top 10 generally.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

I would have Benny Leonard ahead of Ray Leonard.  To my eyes Benny was the most ring intelligent fighter that ever stepped through the ropes.  Everything he did was carefully considered and he rarely made mistakes.  The most adaptable fighter of all time.  In or just out of my Top 10 generally.

and he has Louis at 6........

[Strongback]

Bullcrap..

Tyson dominated his division.............

For how long?..................about 2 1/2 years.

[sittingringside]

I think Louis is a top 20 all time great. Passes the eyeball test, thoroughly dominant in his prime, knocked out some good heavyweights. Having him outside the top 10 is not a slight on the man, there are only 4 fighters who are absolutely nailed on (Ali, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong) and the rest are a a judgement call, with strong arguments either way. I do rather enjoy a punt at making lists, so here is my top 10:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Ray Robinson
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Ray Leonard
8. Eder Jofre
9. Barney Ross
10. Roberto Duran

[Strongback]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

I would have Benny Leonard ahead of Ray Leonard.  To my eyes Benny was the most ring intelligent fighter that ever stepped through the ropes.  Everything he did was carefully considered and he rarely made mistakes.  The most adaptable fighter of all time.  In or just out of my Top 10 generally.

and he has Louis at 6........

Hey!!!!!!!!!!.........why don't you post your Top 10............I could do with a good laugh this morning.............??????????

[TRUSSMAN66]

Good boy another guy who has Ali number 1..........

[TRUSSMAN66]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

I would have Benny Leonard ahead of Ray Leonard.  To my eyes Benny was the most ring intelligent fighter that ever stepped through the ropes.  Everything he did was carefully considered and he rarely made mistakes.  The most adaptable fighter of all time.  In or just out of my Top 10 generally.

and he has Louis at 6........

Hey!!!!!!!!!!.........why don't you post your Top 10............I could do with a good laugh this morning.............??????????

Go to my top 10 thread.........30/35 posters have Mayweather in theirs.......

[hazharrison]

Think I'd go:

Robinson
Armstrong
Ali
Louis
Greb
Pep
Duran
Charles
B. Leonard
Langford

In some sort of order. As much as my list changes, those first seven always feature.

[hazharrison]

Truss's:

1. Ali (America, f*** yeah)
2. Robbo (here they come to save the m***** frickin' universe)
3. Leonard
4. Floyd
5. Floyd
6. Floyd
7. Definitely not Louis or Duran
8. Curry
9. Oscar
10. Guerrero.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I have armstrong at 3.........

Curry a tad to high...

[Strongback]

Just think in both Leonard’s case the quality of opposition is better than anything Joe can boast. Ray may have not the numbers of others on the list but as a quintet of wins I would happily put Duran, Benitez, Hagler and Hearns up against pretty much any fighter ever. Benny Leonard has cracking longevity at his weight and in the likes of Dundee, Kansas and particularly Tendler he has some very, very good wins in the mix. Also for my money Benny Leonard is about as complete a fighter as you could ever hope to see, could box as well as anyone, could adapt once in the ring about as quickly and effortlessly as any fighter ever and could also punch pretty well when required as evidenced by him being the only guy to ever stop Freddie Welsh.

Rodders, I genuinely have no idea, have all on coming up with a top ten. However for me there are a plethora of guys who are in the chasing pack such as Tunney, Mclarnin, Wilde, Moore and Duran and Louis is certainly in that mix. For me is probably top fifteen.

I would have Benny Leonard ahead of Ray Leonard.  To my eyes Benny was the most ring intelligent fighter that ever stepped through the ropes.  Everything he did was carefully considered and he rarely made mistakes.  The most adaptable fighter of all time.  In or just out of my Top 10 generally.

and he has Louis at 6........

Hey!!!!!!!!!!.........why don't you post your Top 10............I could do with a good laugh this morning.............??????????

Go to my top 10 thread.........30/35 posters have Mayweather in theirs.......

This isn't the only site on the web and in other places Mayweather is not considered Top 10 neither is he seen as better than Louis.  

You're going to have to spread your message of Mayweather truths a bit further before it fully catches hold.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Don't think so ....guys like the Captain and Chris are respected enough for me.....

but I'm Liberal so welcome all opinions.......Even those from the village idiot.

[Strongback]

Don't think so ....guys like the Captain and Chris are respected enough for me.....

but I'm Liberal so welcome all opinions.......Even those from the village idiot.

Is anybody on this site a paper published boxing author? Do the guys you mention have their own idiosyncrasies.....yes.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Why do you need to be an author ??

[Boxtthis]

90% of the points made on this board are arguments from fallacy. People selectively taking tidbits of information and using it as a universal example while refuting the same tactic when it comes back at them. It's quite silly really.

[Rowley]

I have a boxing book at home where the author repeatedly spells Joe Louis as Joe Lewis. Do I have to respect his opinion more than the likes of Chris or the Captain?

[TRUSSMAN66]

90% of the points made on this board are arguments from fallacy. People selectively taking tidbits of information and using it as a universal example while refuting the same tactic when it comes back at them. It's quite silly really.

Find a site that isn't silly...

[Boxtthis]

90% of the points made on this board are arguments from fallacy. People selectively taking tidbits of information and using it as a universal example while refuting the same tactic when it comes back at them. It's quite silly really.

Find a site that isn't silly...

My, my you're a sensitive big oaf aren't you?

But, seriously, on that note: yes, I'm really thinking about it. This place is like a fu<king playground.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I was just making a suggestion.........To be sensitive I'd have to care........

[Rowley]

I personally would prefer you to stick around boxthis. Folk who are capable of discussing the sport without needing every third post deleting are at something of a premium round here.

[Strongback]

I have a boxing book at home where the author repeatedly spells Joe Louis as Joe Lewis. Do I have to respect his opinion more than the likes of Chris or the Captain?

I try not to read books that come out of lucky bags, only kidding.

Like I said everybody has their idiosyncrasies.

Thomas Hauser who has done more boxing research than everybody on this board combined thinks Floyd is a cherry picker and is disparaging of him.  Is that the correct view?  Not in my opinion, my view would be that Mayweather will be positioned somewhere between the views of Truss and Hauser.

Matt McGrain who has put together a well researched Top 100 list backed up by polls he's taken on boxing sites. He was has written a good description on the career of each of the 100 fighters which was an enormous undertaking in itself.   McGrain has published many articles and they are generally very thoughtful and insightful.  But guess what he has Mayweather in at something like No.46 in his Top 100 list largely due to the Pacquiao debacle.  Again I would not have Floyd that low.

People on another site basically laughed at my article where I asked them to compare Louis and Floyd.  Mayweather didn't get a look in.  Some posters saw it as an insult to include Mayweather and Louis in the same sentence such was their respect for Joe's achievements.


At the end of the day P4P lists, as we have always said, are just opinions.  They really are so heavily influenced by personal opinion.  Chris has Sweetpea at No.10 in his list which is outside the norm.  Sweetpea is rated as No.20 in McGrains list which I feel would be the general boxing communities consensus from my reading of different lists over the years.  Personally my view is that when the dust settles Mayweather will be positioned by the history somewhere just behind Whitaker.

[TRUSSMAN66]

What is a well researched top 100 ???

It's one guy's opinion simple as..........

[TopHat24/7]

One guy who has a clear and distinct preference for old over new.

[Strongback]

What is a well  researched top 100 ???

It's one guy's opinion simple as..........

He used polls as well to find consensus. It's all there in forums to read. He's also a knowledgeable guy who has done the hard yards by sitting down and doing the studying and writing.

A Top 100 is almost an impossible task but at least his list is current and he isn't some crusty old guy who was around in the 1940's and '50's.

It is all opinion though as you say.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I've got 30/35 Mayweather top 10 lists he could have used on my thread..........

So what.........If the guy doesn't like someone he can spin anything to suit his "taste".

[Strongback]

I've got 30/35 Mayweather top 10 lists he could have used on my thread..........

So what.........If the guy doesn't like someone he can spin anything to suit his "taste".

Did 35 people actually post a list in that thread?

Rowley, Captain and Chris being the most respected posters on the board tend to be seen as authoritative figures and in turn their opinions are generally quite influential around here. It's a bit like they are the elders and we are the tribe.

Even within the leaders I see Captain as the most influential. He has the best writing ability and style on the board hands down, I have always been very impressed by that and his knowledge. In terms of opinion I don't think its a stretch to say the Captain prefers the lighter weights and has never been all that enamoured by the heavyweights. Windy and Rowley were the go to guys on HW's. I feel Windy's ATG list would be more in line with posters like Haz and Rodders while Chris' is more along the line of Captains.


People can't count out influence when considering how fighters are rated amongst a small group of people.

[TRUSSMAN66]

What is all this leader s**t.........I have respect for Rowley types...

My opinions are my own opinions and that goes for most on here.........

I've researched Louis opponents and I've researched Ali's.......My opinion is only a wally has Louis at 6.......

Stop patronising other members by suggesting they can't make up their own minds......

[Strongback]

What is all this leader s**t.........I have respect for Rowley types...

My opinions are my own opinions and that goes for most on here.........

I've researched Louis opponents and I've researched Ali's.......My opinion is only a wally has Louis at 6.......

Stop patronising other members by suggesting they can't make up their own minds......

Oh! you can make up your own mind alright it's just unfortunate you spend all your time on the wind up and rarely tell us what you actually think.

You're basically a propagandist and you have been successful in ramming your persona's opinion down peoples throats for the best part of a decade.  You've never been one of the respected elder's though.


As to Louis at No6 there must be a lot of wallys out there or just propagandists who have been a lot more successful than you.

Do you want me to hit you with the ATG lists of every major boxing authority?

[TRUSSMAN66]

So my opinions aren't my opinions...

More patronising.........

[Strongback]

So my opinions aren't my opinions...

More patronising.........

Whatever gets your post count up I guess. You're kind of cheap in that way.

[TRUSSMAN66]

You're a strange lad.......Bless you........

paranoid.

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