India in South Africa 2013

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Post by msp83 on Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

The BCCI have picked the test squad for South Africa well in advance, so the debates can also start well in time.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 4:12 pm

Of course there is a lot to prove for this young side. Zaheer is not going to be around for long, so they need another good pacer to really step in. It won't be Ishant, he can have a good game a year and rubbish for the rest and that's not good enough. Unfortunately, his Good ODI of the Year and Good Test of the Year came back to back, and he'll start in New Zealand. But one of Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Umesh Yadav will have to really step up.
There are better options in the batting department who can come in for Rohit Sharma. There is Ambati Rayudu who has a decent technique, S Badrinath might not be a young lad any more, but he can't be any worse than Sharma. Manish Pandey is experienced and young enough, he is a good shot maker with a solid First Class record. Young Jiwanjot Singh can be a good top order option, and Sanju Samson and Baba Aparajith are capable youngsters who can graduate from the U-19 level. Young Manprit Juneja has done well with the A sides though he had a poor Ranji season. And MSD is very good as a test batsman in India capable of batting at 6, and even at his worst, you can count on the Indian skipper to score a few handy 20s and 30s.
The bowling is a problem, but it is not as bad as it had become during the horrer days. Would absolutely love to have a demon fast bowler capable of consistently delivering 150 KPH thunderbolts at the base of middle stump or the batsman's head with the ability to get the ball to bounce chest high from a full length and get it to swing in or away at the last possible moment, but not counting on it really!.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 4:55 pm

msp83 wrote:    
Hopefully the people who argue for going in with an all pace attack will have a bit of a rethink after Peterson's 5th day show against the finest players of spin. This doesn't make Peterson a good bowler, he remains an average bowler, who offers a decent package as an all-rounder. But a spinner is key for all teams in most of the conditions, and you need something better than what JP Duminy offers. Under the circumstances, Peterson should be the first choice for now, and they can consider Imran Tahir on a real turner.
 

you make a very good point msp......twice in 2 days we have seen an average spinner on D4/D5 pitches in strong pace bowling unit...pick up a bundles of wicket of batsmen who are quite accomplished players of spin.

a steady spinner is all that you need in a good pace bowling unit and has a role to play on D4 and D5 of the match


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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 5:05 pm

msp83 wrote:Of course there is a lot to prove for this young side. Zaheer is not going to be around for long, so they need another good pacer to really step in. It won't be Ishant, he can have a good game a year and rubbish for the rest and that's not good enough. Unfortunately, his Good ODI of the Year and Good Test of the Year came back to back, and he'll start in New Zealand. But one of Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Umesh Yadav will have to really step up.
There are better options in the batting department who can come in for Rohit Sharma. There is Ambati Rayudu who has a decent technique, S Badrinath might not be a young lad any more, but he can't be any worse than Sharma. Manish Pandey is experienced and young enough, he is a good shot maker with a solid First Class record. Young Jiwanjot Singh can be a good top order option, and Sanju Samson and Baba Aparajith are capable youngsters who can graduate from the U-19 level. Young Manprit Juneja has done well with the A sides though he had a poor Ranji season. And MSD is very good as a test batsman in India capable of batting at 6, and even at his worst, you can count on the Indian skipper to score a few handy 20s and 30s.
The bowling is a problem, but it is not as bad as it had become during the horrer days. Would absolutely love to have a demon fast bowler capable of consistently delivering 150 KPH thunderbolts at the base of middle stump or the batsman's head with the ability to get the ball to bounce chest high from a full length and get it to swing in or away at the last possible moment, but not counting on it really!.


good points msp again...that I concurr with:
Bowling:......we've gotta play Yadav in the 11 in places in like SA and Aus......and Kumar in NZ and Eng ( presumably they will make seaming pitches)

Batting following is the hierarchy in my view whose technique will stand the tests of high quality international bowlers:

1) Rayadu is already in squad and first amongst reserves
2) Nayar...mature, technically correct and good temperament
3) Aparajith is doing very well but has not played A cricket
4) Manoj Tiwary when he recovers and gets some FC cricket under the belt
5) Saurabh Tiwary....we've gotta watch him closely this season

Badri is  past the age....Raina doesn't have technique and rest of Ranji stars will find the gulf between Ranji and international is too wide for now...so like of Manish, Manprit Jiwanjot, S.Yadav, Zol have to play some A cricket and ODIs before they come into tests


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Post by Biltong on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 5:11 pm

Peteren had a decent day today.

However he has still not convinced me he is good enough, it is of no use to us when he bowls inconsistently.

Comparisons were shown of the pitch maps of Jadeja and Petersen on day four.

Jadeja's pitch map was an example of consistent line and length, only one in every twenty balls were a loose one.

Petersen bowled a loose ball once every ten balls.

Pace wise Jadeja bowled mostly between 90 and 95 km/h and Petersen was significantly slower which allowed the batsmen much more time to adjust and he also doesn't spin the ball much.

There is also the matter of not only length but also the line he bowls, not very consistent either.

Then you have to concider the manner in which he got his wickets, one was lucky, there were also a few poor shots, overall not convinced.
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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:07 pm

I'm not sold on Peterson as a mere spinner, but if can average 30 with the bat, and, say 35 with the ball... then I'm not against him in our XI. If we go
Duminy - bat 35 ball 35
Peterson - Bat 30 ball 35
Philander - bat 25 ball 20

then I think our 7, 8, 9 combo works out well. Probably.
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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:12 pm

What to do with Shikar dhawan? Burst onto the international scene with big runs in all forms, but his form has really dried up over recent times.....stick with him, or bring back Gambhir?

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:14 pm

Peterson is the best available option for them among Duminy, Tahir and him. Unless they are not betting on someone like Simon Harmer, think SA will have to go in with Peterson for most of the games, and Tahir for the rank turners. South Africa have the seamers to blast out sides in home conditions, but in tricky 4th innings stuff like today's they need a frontline spinner, even an average one will do. Besides the balance and variation reasons, I am sure Graeme Smith wouldn't like to consistently lose his match fee and sit out of every other test match due to slow overrate issues!.
But the loss of Jacques Kallis is a bit of an issue in playing someone like Peterson safely. Perhaps, as someone, think kingraf mentioned, they should play Peterson as the all-rounder at 7? JP Duminy has anyways been a bit too inconsistent for a specialist bat at number 7........

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:17 pm

KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:Of course there is a lot to prove for this young side. Zaheer is not going to be around for long, so they need another good pacer to really step in. It won't be Ishant, he can have a good game a year and rubbish for the rest and that's not good enough. Unfortunately, his Good ODI of the Year and Good Test of the Year came back to back, and he'll start in New Zealand. But one of Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Umesh Yadav will have to really step up.
There are better options in the batting department who can come in for Rohit Sharma. There is Ambati Rayudu who has a decent technique, S Badrinath might not be a young lad any more, but he can't be any worse than Sharma. Manish Pandey is experienced and young enough, he is a good shot maker with a solid First Class record. Young Jiwanjot Singh can be a good top order option, and Sanju Samson and Baba Aparajith are capable youngsters who can graduate from the U-19 level. Young Manprit Juneja has done well with the A sides though he had a poor Ranji season. And MSD is very good as a test batsman in India capable of batting at 6, and even at his worst, you can count on the Indian skipper to score a few handy 20s and 30s.
The bowling is a problem, but it is not as bad as it had become during the horrer days. Would absolutely love to have a demon fast bowler capable of consistently delivering 150 KPH thunderbolts at the base of middle stump or the batsman's head with the ability to get the ball to bounce chest high from a full length and get it to swing in or away at the last possible moment, but not counting on it really!.


good points msp again...that I concurr with:
Bowling:......we've gotta play Yadav in the 11 in places in like SA and Aus......and Kumar in NZ and Eng ( presumably they will make seaming pitches)

Batting following is the hierarchy in my view whose technique will stand the tests of high quality international bowlers:

1) Rayadu is already in squad and first amongst reserves
2) Nayar...mature, technically correct and good temperament
3) Aparajith is doing very well but has not played A cricket
4) Manoj Tiwary when he recovers and gets some FC cricket under the belt
5) Saurabh Tiwary....we've gotta watch him closely this season

Badri is  past the age....Raina doesn't have technique and rest of Ranji stars will find the gulf between Ranji and international is too wide for now...so like of Manish, Manprit Jiwanjot, S.Yadav, Zol have to play some A cricket and ODIs before they come into tests
KPF, both Juneja and Jiwanjot have played some A team cricket already. Manprit has had a poor Ranji season so far, but Jiwanjot, after an indifferent start, is back in form, and his big knocks have all come in tough situations, either on really challenging tracks, or when Punjab were struggling to save a game after giving up a huge first innings lead........

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:22 pm

CF wrote:What to do with Shikar dhawan? Burst onto the international scene with big runs in all forms, but his form has really dried up over recent times.....stick with him, or bring back Gambhir?
Stick with Dhawan for now, and if he doesn't deliver in NZ, bring Jiwanjot in.
Gambhir scored only 1 substantive knock in the Ranji this season so far. He has got a few half-centuries, a few 40s, a fiew 30s, but hardly looked convincing in most of those knocks. Just doesn't look the same player of 3 years ago. Its a slightly improved version of the struggling opener from England 2011 who's playing in the Ranji Trophy. MSD had hinted that Gambhir does remain India's reserve opener, but hopefully, Jiwanjot's recent performances might result in a bit of a rethink on that front.

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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:23 pm

JP Duminy is a question for SA...only averages 33 in test cricket and its been a while since he's looked like scoring runs in tests when fit....maybe get De Kock in there somewhere...faf to 6,de kock 7 and keep?

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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:32 pm

Again C.F. - de Kock doesn't even keep at first class level. Hes had one season of proper first-class season. Youre selling a very talented kid down the river by throwing him onto the den already.

Faf needs to bat higher for sure, he's average will come down, but his overall contribution will be higher. Duminy is in potential danger, but I think he has until the Australia series. The domestic season will be done by then as well - thus any pretenders will have made their cases known.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:57 pm

Well done South Africa. clap

Nice to see Kallis bow out with a ton as well.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:07 pm

kingraf wrote:Again C.F. - de Kock doesn't even keep at first class level. Hes had one season of proper first-class season. Youre selling a very talented kid down the river by throwing him onto the den already.

Faf needs to bat higher for sure, he's average will come down, but his overall contribution will be higher.  Duminy is in potential danger, but I think he has until the Australia series. The domestic season will be done by then as well - thus any pretenders will have made their cases known.
Kingraf, AB never really kept consistently in First Class or Test cricket before taking over the responsibilities full time did he? Quinton de Kock has been keeping wickets in ODIs, from whatever I've seen of both of them, can't say AB is a much superior keeper. Perhaps they should bring in de Kock into the test team and bat him at 6, promote du Plessis to 4, retain AB at 5, and replace Duminy with Peterson or Harmer and bring in Morris or de Lange, or the Gqamane lad you mentioned the other day, impressive are his stats though he seems to have gone into a bit of a rough patch recently?

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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:18 pm

I've seen Quinton keep more than anyone here... trust me MSP, he isn't ready!
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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:31 pm

kingraf wrote:I've seen Quinton keep more than anyone here... trust me MSP, he isn't ready!
Perhaps he should change his First Class Franchise side and look for more regular keeping opportunities? Tsolekile isn't young really, so either the franchise should give young de Kock more opportunities with the gloves, or else he should look for a new domestic First Class side.
Perhaps his keeping will develop with the ODI side.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:38 pm

kingraf wrote:I've seen Quinton keep more than anyone here... trust me MSP, he isn't ready!

Quinton D Kock is like ABDV who himself is like Herschel Gibbs...excellent hand eye coordination, naturally exceptional athletes and very gifted.

since he is keeping.....invest a bit more in getting him practice and have him take over as the next batsman WK.
It is a luxury to have a WK who can bat as well as he has shown he is capable of.

nevertheless what's the hurry ABDV is keeping wickets and doing it well...so he can compete and play as batsman in the 11 and reserve WK in the squad when travelling overseas
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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:40 pm

CF wrote:What to do with Shikar dhawan? Burst onto the international scene with big runs in all forms, but his form has really dried up over recent times.....stick with him, or bring back Gambhir?

Dhawan did not look as bad and exposed as Rohit.
he got out to a freak catch yesterday........and had starts battling it out showing guts and good technique to get on top of short-stuff.
so it's a matter of time in my view before he cracks a big hundred most likely against slightly more benign Kiwis.

If he fails in NZ also...then Gambhir comes into reckoning for Eng series
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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:44 pm

Look, Quinton is a nice guy, and from when I played against him (painful days) he will do whatever is needed, but I don't think the Lions are going to drop Tsolekile for QdK, as a wicketkeeper... Over the last three years, Tsolekile averages 40 (well that's what Neil Manthrop said, I haven't seen the numbers), and he is a specialist. Makes no sense to give de Kock the gloves, when Tsolekile is so much better than him. As for the issue of moving franchises, the fact of the matter is every keeper in S.A. franchise cricket is better than him, and most have similar averages to him, so there's quite literally no where to go... Except maybe Cape Town, which is where all the Proteas go eventually!

De Kock needs to make it as a specialist batsman, as there is no justification for having him in the Test squad as a WK/bat
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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:44 pm

CF wrote:JP Duminy is a question for SA...only averages 33 in test cricket and its been a while since he's looked like scoring runs in tests when fit....maybe get De Kock in there somewhere...faf to 6,de kock 7 and keep?

i have a very high opinion of Duminy......limited overs and batting with lower order in tests....in declaration type situations, has corrupted his technique.

He should bat up the order at 4 now...and I am sure he will deliver more
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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 7:54 pm

he's a good limited overs player KP fan, but IMO he's not a test match batsman.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:08 pm

Fantastic from Ajinkya Rahane. Should definitely bat ahead of Rohit now. I don't think Rohit deserves to be dropped for another batsman just yet (he should be, if he fails in NZ) but I may consider playing 5 bowlers anyway, which would obviously mean Rohit has to sit out. I would seriously like to see Rishi Dhawan get a go in the NZ tests. MSD continues to disappoint overseas. He too should be on notice in NZ.

Zak and Ishant both need to go immediately. Zak's fitness is not good enough and has gotten progressively worse over each innings. The fact that he did not get a bowl today in the 2nd innings suggests the writing may well be on the wall. Ishant was the same old story. One good spell and nothing after that. Sorry, not good enough.

My squad in NZ


Vijay
Shikhar
Pujara
Virat
Rahane
Rishi Dhawan
MSD (c-wk)
Jadeja
Bhuvi
Shami
Umesh/Aaron

Ojha
Rohit
Rayudu
Saha (wk)
Reserve Opener (no idea who, maybe Gambhir but ideally a youngster really)


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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:37 pm

They are picking the squad for the NZ games tomorrow aren't they? Would love to see Rishi Dhawan in there for sure, at least in the limited overs squad.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:43 pm

msp83 wrote:They are picking the squad for the NZ games tomorrow aren't they? Would love to see Rishi Dhawan in there for sure, at least in the limited overs squad.
Test squad, more so . We really need to try out the 5 bowler option before going to England where we will definitely need to employ 5 bowlers at some stage, its a long series.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:48 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:
msp83 wrote:They are picking the squad for the NZ games tomorrow aren't they? Would love to see Rishi Dhawan in there for sure, at least in the limited overs squad.
Test squad, more so . We really need to try out the 5 bowler option before going to England where we will definitely need to employ 5 bowlers at some stage, its a long series.
He should ideally be picked for the test squad and right away replace Rohit, but the way things work with Indian selectors, they might just want to try him out in ODIs before thinking of a test chance. But in my view Dhawan will be a more useful test player than a limited overs one.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:58 pm

What do you think about Zaheer, msp? Invaluable as a mentor but he looked as threatening as a tortoise for the better part of the series. Time to move on, I think. There's no way he's gonna last 5 Tests in England, if he couldn't even last 2 Tests here. Perfect opportunity to give the likes of Bhuvneshwar an opportunity in NZ before the England tour.

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Post by Biltong on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:03 pm

Tsolikile is too old, he is not a long term solution for the Proteas.

De Villiers is averaging in excess of 60 as a wicket keeper, De Kock is keeping in the OdI's, let this continue whilst they work on De Kock's keeping until they feel he is ready to take that responsibility over from de Villiers.

As far as Kallis is concerned, what we lose most is his batting. His bowling has been sporadic and dimishing over the past few years.

Rather have de Kock or Elgar establish themselves as the next batsman and bring in Marchant de Lange and Kyle Abbot to establish the best four between them and the current crop.

Leave Oetersen and Tahir out of the squad as neither are consistent enough.

In the oast our success lay with containment bowlers such as Clive Eksteen, Nicky Boje, Paul Harris or Pat Symcox. None of them we attacking bowlers, but they were all more miserly per over.

Let Duminy and Faf (both of whom are still not certainties for me) up their responisbility with the bat and they can both bowl a few overs to provide relief to the seamers.
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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:06 pm

Yuvraj will be dropped.....is the inside story.

selectors have to be concious managing th workload of seamers.

already our T2 show lacked fizz because of the way the seamers were bowled into the ground...especially subsidizing for Ashwin.

I have a feeling Rishi might just come in instead of Vinay or Mohit.....actually Ishant should be dumped but he won't
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Post by KP_fan on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:33 pm

Rishi, Bumrah, Dhabolkar, Pankaj Singh, sandeep sharma, jalaj saxena, Ishwar Pandey have had excellent season...and Dhawan I believe is the highest wicket taker so far.

In the ODIs to NZ I would like to see Dhawan and Pandey
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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:46 pm

Not sure Pandey is suited to ODIs. My ODI seamers would be Bhuvi, Shami, Aaron, Rishi and maybe Bumrah.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 10:07 pm

msp, KL Rahul has had a better season than Jiwanjot. His overall record isn't as good but those who've seen him bat think he's a much better bet than Jiwanjot for Test cricket. Jiwanjot is far too limited apparently. Struggles to put full tosses away, etc.

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