Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Tue 17 Dec 2013, 7:25 am

First topic message reminder :

The Ashes Urn has returned to Australia after a long period away.... 4 years 3 months and 25 days to be exact.

Between now and Boxing Day - feel free to discuss the build-up to the 4th Test at Melbourne here.

What changes will England make do you think? Should they keep the core players who have done so well in recent years or is it time to consider a couple of changes for the MCG Test? What team line up would best deliver a balance of experience, form and potential capability?

England played a lot better in Perth with young Ben Stokes scoring his maiden century under very difficult circumstances. Watching the press conferences; Alistair Cook is doing his best to remain calm and although the Ashes are gone; we all know that England will always fight back. Australia will want to keep going forward on their pathway back towards the No.1 spot, no doubt.

To all England fans:
I know how you feel right now but you probably should be proud of the improvement shown in Perth. One small positive can lead to a series of better performances from other players. Perhaps, as some people have suggested - they have been slow starters in this series but I can sense some momentum and confidence is kicking in after Perth despite the loss of Trott early on and the injury to Broad at the WACA.

We all know England are a very good side and you have some potential rising stars waiting in the wings... eager to have a crack at Australia. It's a tough sport and it's played under very testing conditions in Australia especially. I have a strong feeling the last 2 matches will give players opportunities to shine and fingers crossed the weather will behave and they can do what they do best.

Thank you everyone for your contributions on the other Ashes Test threads. Let's continue to keep things civil.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down


Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by msp83 on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:08 am

So Mike, does that mean Australia are still interested in him?

msp83

Posts : 13956
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:31 am

I thought he'd already committed to England?

Sure Shelsey said so at some point
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46250
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 23
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Dec 2013, 11:34 am

Olly wrote:I thought he'd already committed to England?

Sure Shelsey said so at some point

Yeah I think he has as well. There was a headline on the back page of the Times a couple of weeks ago about how Robson has committed his future to England.

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 11:52 am

I see Swanns managed to get himself in hot water for suggesting that England were brutally raped by Australia on Facebook. Didnt even manage to blame his cat for walking on the keyboard.

What phrases would have been less controversial if equally as honest?

"Beaten soundly"
"Comprehensively outplayed"
"Made to look like a team led by Micheal Vaughn" ?



Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:13 pm

Maybe just "battered and bruised" would have sufficed. Just because he's in an ex-penal colony doesn't mean he shouldn't choose his words more carefully.

Do you reckon he needs some time off Pete? I reckon the Sun's got to his head this time. It tends to make certain people do things they wouldn't normally do.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by JDizzle on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:22 pm

To be fair, he's posted the comment on his brother's facebook assuming that it would be private. Obviously it doesn't make his choice of words any better but it's not like he's said it to a journalist or tweeted it to his hundred thousands of followers. I think his apology, followed by a private slap on the wrists/small fine or donation to a charity would suffice.

He'll definitely play in the next two Tests. Panesar isn't a better spinner than him all of sudden. He's still got a lot to offer and he has the type of character that will want to bounce back. What he does come the summer is anyone's guess, I think he might retire, but if he wants to play on he has enough credit in the bank to keep him there. Plus there is no real viable alternative yet.

JDizzle

Posts : 4836
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 1:56 pm

When you say "the sun" re we talking the newspaper or drinking in aussie heat linebreaker?


Yeah really this is a bit of a non incident but itll give the Aussie players even more to laugh about come the next test.
No question hes another whos been ragged over the past few years, and at times struggled to cope with the pressure. It must be especially difficult for a sole spinner feeling a bit isolated, required to bowl huge amounts and knowing your position is constantly under threat without the safety net of slipping to second or third choice still getting you in the team.
And lets face it Australia is hardly an orthodox spinners paradise.

The malaise seems to have taken hold across the whole team though. How different to a few years back when they were all full bottle and fought back after screwing up the first innings. But then maybe thats the fine line with moral, look at Mitchell Johnson. 1 fairly innocuous ball gets a wicket and suddenly hes on fire again.

As it is England are looking increasingly like the shambolic and shot India they themselves humiliated a few years ago.
Its taken a couple of years of gradual requirements to ease through a new generation of players with the ability and energy to compete for them. Hopefully for England it will be less lengthy and tortuous a process than it has been at times for Australia.

If Swann does retire ( and lets not forget he still has question marks over his elbow) it will leave England with a hole.
Panessar is a decent spinner but has actually averaged less since his return than he did before he was dropped and is no spring chicken himself. The guys theyve been looking at in limited overs havent covered themselves in glory and noone is going to argue that Tredwell is a serious long term test option in either age or ability.
SA and Aus get by with pretty mediocre spinners, England are going to have to really unearth for star pace to be able to do that. It doesnt suit their approach of balance and playing the percentage game either to not have a reliable wicket taking if fairly orthodox spinner.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by kingraf on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 2:02 pm

S.A. gets by with mediocre spinners because our two new ball bowlers average 22 & 18. By the time Imran/Robbie P comes on, the score is 27/6 or some similarly embarrassing score (21/9?). Australia get by because England have been really poor. They generally don't get away with it. (4-0 vs India) (South Africa series) (England Ashes).
kingraf
kingraf
raf
raf

Posts : 16124
Join date : 2012-06-06
Age : 25
Location : To you I am there. To me I am here.... is it possible that I'm everywhere?

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 2:43 pm

I got a new laptop today... I had to change my browser because I couldn't post emoticons for some reason. All fixed now though.

Yeah, I wrote "Sun" with a capital S as it should be but also to be a little bit ambiguous and possibly set that trap which you so neatly fell into.  Smile 

The fact that England never rose as high as Australia during their glory year or two will probably set them back more as they attempt to pick up the pieces. Unless you don't make the same mistakes we did and chop and change players too much. It's very tempting as we all know. On the other hand; if Flower wants to deny the reality and persist with the same players - then it could get even more embarrassing. It's a very difficult dilemma he faces.

I think India will manage (or are already in the process of managing) the transition better; they're running through SA as I type -  and they have some fairly decent young batsmen by the looks of things at Wanderers yesterday. They were unlucky only one of them made a ton. The bowling department too is OK however they'll need to blood some more of their IPL stars at some stage in the longer format.

Lyon has totally outclassed both Panesar and Swann thus far in this series. The fact that we all knew Swann was likely to struggle yet Flower stubbornly backed him up was quite painful to witness. It will be interesting to see if Australia can unearth some more spinners of both varieties over the next few years to be there if needed if Lyon starts to get overbowled. At the moment though he looks as though he's thriving on it and unlike Swann recently - taking up the challenge.

It is easier said than done to develop blistering speedsters or even solid workhorses in the pace department. Full credit to our current trio but I'm even more excited about the other half dozen or so who are now back in the frame coming back after injury. We are blessed in that respect.

No doubt we need to also think about a future replacement for Haddin but at the moment he is also in such superb form with the gloves and the bat. He seems to have also reigned in his chatter a touch too... which is nice to not hear.

It must be quite a shock to see such as quick turnaround in fortunes. However, as many have said - it could be seen coming from a while back.

No truly great team ever loses a series 3-0 (like England did in UAE) and then gets battered at home 0-2 (by SA) and then starts chest beating when they get an away Ashes win over the weakest Australian side in 25 years.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:04 pm

On paper Id argue that was a stronger side, certainly the one England beat here last time was (on paper).

This one has a pensioner who noone has ever really thought was good enough for test cricket and isnt doing any more than most England batsmen proving the point, the 8th or 9th choice seamer leading the attack, an all rounder half the team isnt on speaking terms with, a captain who injured and the other half of the team isnt on speaking terms with and a drunken thug limited overs player opening the batting.

In that context its even more embarrassing for England.


But you pick up on Englands flakey record whilst suggesting that Australia are back on top of the world.
Are they? Theyve beat the weakest England team in years at home ( Wink )

Theres more to see from both teams before we declare either totally shot or world beaters. Same for individual players. Weve seen all the top sides go through blip series both in terms of good an bad results.
I do look at Englands demographic, Broads increasing injury prone status, and the workload these guys have and see the need for a serious programme of reshuffling ...especially when one of the two guys they have integrated in on this tour is getting to the end of his career.

When you look at the longevity of the South African squad which is packed with guys who have performed consistently at the top for years you cant help but wonder about the benefits of not playing so many tests every year.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 3:59 pm

Linebreaker wrote:
...

Lyon has totally outclassed both Panesar and Swann thus far in this series. The fact that we all knew Swann was likely to struggle yet Flower stubbornly backed him up was quite painful to witness. It will be interesting to see if Australia can unearth some more spinners of both varieties over the next few years to be there if needed if Lyon starts to get overbowled. At the moment though he looks as though he's thriving on it and unlike Swann recently - taking up the challenge.

..

Linebreaker - completely agree with you about Lyon totally outclassing Panesar and Swann thus far. He's never looked like running through the England order but he has regularly looked capable of picking up a couple of wickets each innings whilst keeping things tidy. Importantly he's pretty much done just that. Not a star but someone who has helped others (particularly thinking of Johnson) shine more - as reguars know, I like that sort of trooper.

I actually didn't expect Swann to struggle so much. I appreciated it wasn't going to be easy but I thought his canny approach allied to his undoubted craft and guile would see him through. How wrong I was. In the words of the late Peter May (England and Surrey captain), ''It is a fascination of cricket that one is always learning.''

guildfordbat

Posts : 12992
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 4:13 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:
...

Lyon has totally outclassed both Panesar and Swann thus far in this series. The fact that we all knew Swann was likely to struggle yet Flower stubbornly backed him up was quite painful to witness. It will be interesting to see if Australia can unearth some more spinners of both varieties over the next few years to be there if needed if Lyon starts to get overbowled. At the moment though he looks as though he's thriving on it and unlike Swann recently - taking up the challenge.

..

Linebreaker - completely agree with you about Lyon totally outclassing Panesar and Swann thus far. He's never looked like running through the England order but he has regularly looked capable of picking up a couple of wickets each innings whilst keeping things tidy. Importantly he's pretty much done just that. Not a star but someone who has helped others (particularly thinking of Johnson) shine more - as reguars know, I like that sort of trooper.

I actually didn't expect Swann to struggle so much. I appreciated it wasn't going to be easy but I thought his canny approach allied to his undoubted craft and guile would see him through. How wrong I was. In the words of the late Peter May (England and Surrey captain), ''It is a fascination of cricket that one is always learning.''

And I guess if we "knew" he was going to struggle (as would Bresnan et al last time we came over) what were we to do about it? Not pick a spinner at all and have 5 right arm seamers and rely on boring Australia out?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 19 Dec 2013, 9:11 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:


But you pick up on Englands flakey record whilst suggesting that Australia are back on top of the world.
Are they? Theyve beat the weakest England team in years at home ( Wink )

Never said Australia "are back on top of the world". Far from it. It's just the start of a longer journey to better results I'd say.
The way most people were bigging up England beforehand... it sounded like they were the best invention since the water sprinkler - when in fact they were probably more akin to your hand-held garden hose.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 1:55 pm

Aus and Ind are case studies for Eng to look at...hit Nadir....when they carried their super-star past expiry dates....and then brought new blood, rebuilt and showed visible progress,

The Indian analogy is far closer to the English situation.

some remarks:

1) I read Flower " we take the responsibility" statement and even in doing so was barking up the wrong tree....assigning the blame to the batsmen.....and attempting to digress :

some questions for Flower:
--whey he continues to pick 128kph trundlers when they have express pacer on pitches that are the fastest and bounciest in the world.

--why were Bresnan and Swann in the side ?
--why someone like Woakes who is similar to stokes dumped after just one not bad test
--who takes the responsibility of moving Root all over the line-up and not letting him settle
--who take the responsibility of bringing a mental sick No.3 and not having a back-up plan
--who take the responsibility of dropping Compton more on agenda than rationale??

--There was a guy Taylor who showed great temprament agains SA and was dumped...as was Onions after beiing carried around but not given a chance
--who was monitoring the pace of 7-foot tall expected to bowl at 140kph Tremlette and only delivering 128kph dollies?


2) So it seems they might "rest" KP and drop Prior........both are knee-jerkism....the first Flower's pet hate that he uses as a dumping bag for all debacles...and the latter a scape-goat.

3) In my view what England should do and not limited to this series:

a) play Woakes, Stokes as bowling all-rounders.....they are pretty darn good 85mph bowlers for the batting skills they bring

b) Have 2 pure seamers...choosing from Finn, Rankin, and that left arm pacer, Anderson and Broad.
anderson and Board should be kept fresh and selected only when full fit.

c) Monty is a better all conditions spinner ...but Swan a favorite of Flower...can he put his favouritism behind and select what is in the best interest of the team`??

4) If England aren't gonna as the hard questions off Flower and not fix his ways...they will remain and self denial and struggle to recover



KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 2:33 pm

Swann is a far superior bowler to Panesar.

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 3:37 pm

Yeah barring that statement you make some very good points kpfan, I agree with the one on woakes/stokes
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46250
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 23
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 5:03 pm

Woakes and Stokes are not in the top 3 seam bowlers england had available. Playing two bowlers because they can bat a bit (when you have in theory the best batting keeper bar ABD in test cricket) is exactly what England used to try and do in the bad old "new Ian Botham" days.
For me its either Woakes or Stokes, theyve gone with the pacier of the two and better batsman. To be fair Woakes could have toured ahead of Bresnan, but then Bresnan actually has a track record of success in Australia.
As did Tremlett.
The theory was pretty clear ...pick the nearest thing to tall fast bowlers we have available, and those who have excelled in the past.
Exactly what would Woakes have added to the party?

Its really clutching at straws to be pretending hes somehow been massively unfairly treated. Taking Stokes was a daring move, something England are often hammered for not trying . Hes allowed them the luxury of a 5 man attack, but has it really made a difference to their ability to take wickets?
They really need a left armer in somewhere.

Compton more so. But then its not like hes some wonderkid. Carberry again was a horses for courses pick, they have a theory about him in Australia ( remember he nearly took Cooks spot previously). Conservative England thinking outside the box?
Could they have taken both? That wouldve given them 5 "traditional" top 3 players in the squad. A touch too many perhaps? Could they have left out Trott? Im sure if they knew the state he would get in they wouldve done.

Panesars record since his recall has been worse than Swanns, and worse on this tour. His good figures came in India. Lets not pretend hes the man to bowl 30 overs and take 10 wickets in Australia please.
England dont have Shane Warne. They do have Swann who previously did Ok out here.

Id agree Tremlett was an eyebrow raising gamble although no-one ever said he was express pace, indeed he got his slot by being accurate at the th expense of Finn who had slowed down but continued to spray it around. Id agree theres a million players you can name who couldve been tried, but honestly trying to pretend that Barry Chuckle would taken 5 fors is the same as the shuffling of deckchairs theyve tried on the tour so far ... the squad as a whole has failed mentally and not delivered to their ability.
The point regarding a left armer Id agree with. England look desperately samey at times and dont really offer enough challenges to batsmen who get set.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by msp83 on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 6:15 pm

Did Flower hint that they are going to Rest(to be read as drop) Pietersen?

msp83

Posts : 13956
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 6:19 pm

The issue here is not what a Compton or Onion or Taylor or Woakes could have done...

But rather principles of fairness and consistency in selection...

all of the aforementioned deserved a run....a fair run...just like Bopara and Morgan and Bairstow got and Bresnan continues to get.

once a guy is selected in the squad....unless he is named as a horse for course......he must be played in 11 before being dumped from the 15

Once considered good to play in the 11 whether on potrential or on sustained FC performances...he's gotta be given a fair run...to prove himsefl worthy or other wise...say 3 tests.....

if he does a reasonable account of himself in those 3 tests.....he gets an extended run....if he gives a good account of himself in the extended run....he get an even longer run....
that is the principle of fairness and consistency in selection...in my view


KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 6:41 pm

So what youre saying us that onions bowling absolute dross in the tour matches he got last time he was not being the type of bowler likely to do well in Australia means he should've been kept in the england squad given a test to prove it was a stupid idea to bring him?
When it comes to the summer he may well get another chance, as may woakes, in conditions they are ether suited to excelling in.

Maybe andy flower really is just a nasty man and picks his squads to wind people up and enjoys toying with players emotions. Maybe he bought trott because he knew he could break him, and excluded Compton out if pure malice an a lack if a sense of decency and fairness.
Or maybe you can't pick everyone all the time.
If England stick by guys they get slaughtered for being blind to th better alternatives, if they swap tem they get slaughtered for flip flopping.

In reality each selection will have long consideration and unique context. There are of course various principles and theories they use to drive decisions but sometimes it comes down to having to make a tough choice. Coaches ( or manger or whatever he is ) aren't always going to be 100% certain nor will but they have to make these decisions.

To set arbitrary rules like " he must be given x tests if we pick him for a squad" is just silly and hamstrings sensible selection policy.
England use more players than most test teams partly because they at more tests and break more of them.
That's perhaps one area they do need to look at, less cricket full stop.
Not great for the fans of course.



Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 6:42 pm

I must ask you KP_fan, what did Bresnan, Flower and Swann do to you in a previous life that was so bad?

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 7:04 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Id agree Tremlett was an eyebrow raising gamble ...


Referring to Tremlett and from a post yesterday on the Surrey Supporters' Club website (not from me or any of the Surrey 606v2 boys):
''Whoever decided to take him to Oz could not have seen him perform for Surrey in 2013.''

guildfordbat

Posts : 12992
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Guest on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 7:06 pm

Would really like to see Ballance included in Melborune...has scored stacks of runs in CC and deserves his shot..

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Fri 20 Dec 2013, 7:37 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
If England stick by guys they get slaughtered for being blind to th better alternatives, if they swap tem they get slaughtered for flip flopping.



if Eng follow principles of fairness and consistency in selection......the results will be good in the long term...

This can start now and with perseverance yield results in a year or so...

instead Flower is looking for "instant magic bullet" solution with many of his recent new players........
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by alfie on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 1:13 am

The above comment re "magic bullet" seems totally off - surely this is exactly what Flower does not do , and which some people seem to wish he did ?
If anything , England err on the side of consistency...it has been rare in recent years for a selection to surprise anyone ; almost seems to be a queue of players taking their turn. And when they have moved away from this policy , in order to experiment in dead rubbers , (Oval Test , for example) the results have not been encouraging.
Australia on the other hand have done a lot of "magic bullet" selection in recent years - with disastrous consequences. Only now Lehmann has come in and returned a bit of logic and consistency to selection have results begun to turn around.
Might not be exciting enough for some , but generally picking those you think are your best players and sticking with them tends to work best. Of course players lose form and sometimes changes are needed - but panic changes usually just cause more trouble.

On another point : obsession with pace seen in some comments. Yes it is handy , especially on some typical Australian wickets , but it isn't everything. In Perth , for instance , Anderson bowled quicker than earlier on this tour - up around 90 in the first innings - but with not much movement still didn't get wickets. If Tremlett was down on pace in Brisbane , how much more effective would Finn have been? People still talk of him as if he is hurling down thunderbolts , but when was he last seen bowling at 90 plus for England ? Certainly not recently... And he and Rankin made zero impression against very limited opponents in the tour match in Alice Springs : god knows what Warner would have done to them ...

When a team is losing , it is easy to say " this would have been better". But we will never know.

One other thing : since these recent reverses , this Emgland team seems to be attracting a lot of bad press. Criticize poor present form , fine. But I am unhappy to see retrospective downgrading of their past performances . Was a bit surprised at Linebreaker , normally very fair , seeming to imply the team had been claiming greater status than they deserved : all I have have ever seen them claiming is pleasure in the victories they have achieved and a desire to go on and establish a true dynasty - something they have always admitted they had not yet done. This reverse may now mean they never do ; but it doesn't mean they were not a very good team , who reached the number one ranking by consistent performance. The failure to match the SA challenge in 2012 probably set them back further than they realized at the time , and perhaps the excellent Indian tour success that followed fooled them into disregarding some warning signs ? Even so we should perhaps note that these are but three defeats - heavy ones , yes , but still - following a long unbeaten run. And their opponents have played very well...
No one I know has ever started to compare Flower's England with the great West Indian or Australian teams of recent years. So perhaps we could avoid setting up straw men and just wait and see how they respond to these defeats before heaping mud on them all ?

alfie

Posts : 10896
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 5:42 am

alfie wrote:The above comment re "magic bullet" seems totally off  - surely this is exactly what Flower does not do
why was then Woakes dumped....for good after just one test...where he didn't do bad really...averaging 42 with the bat and taking a wicket also.

what did he expect from Woakes ???
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 6:47 am

I wasn't saying the team having been claiming greater status than they deserved, alfie - just some of the members on here (and from other places and people) have probably over-rated the England team - given those very major blips in their "consistent" record of late. Maybe one or two players in the team too... but not all of them of course.

I was more so reacting to a few posts on this thread and throwing the idea out there (based on recent results) that one can also have a different understanding of the phrase "world class", and often used words like "brilliant", "dominant", "class of his own", etc. That's a fair enough comment to make I'm sure you'd agree.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 7:23 am

tid-bits:

--Bopara says he is eyeing a test match come back and can play util the age of 39

--Swann apologises for his "arse r.aped comments"

He posted the comment in response to his brother Alec posting that he had enjoyed a night out seeing the band Shed Seven at Northampton's Roadmender venue. "Rather have been there than being arse raped in Perth!" Swann replied.
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 8:25 am

KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:The above comment re "magic bullet" seems totally off  - surely this is exactly what Flower does not do
why was then Woakes dumped....for good after just one test...where he didn't do bad really...averaging 42 with the bat and taking a wicket also.

what did he expect from Woakes ???

42 runs over two innings and 1-96 with the ball is hardly a " what more do you expect" demand for being selected for a tour which doesn't suit your bowling I it.

Really he was very lucky to get tht test at all given his prior career for England both in limited overs and 4 day tour matches. Like Taylor when given limited chance he's come up short.

He was picked to fill a specific gap in specific conditions and balance a side when others were injured at the end of an already won series. That's it. For thi one they bought stokes who's game was better suited to the pitches out here and have him a run of games after a reasonable start. Suddenly now he's got one decen score everyone has a disproportionate hard on for him in the press but are we suggesting flower has made a bad decision here?
It's really clutching at straws trying to find a stick to bash him with kp.

He's also been given captaincy of the lions side, which suggests he is far from dropped and forgotten ( although bringing up Taylor again may be relevant there!)

This tour would have done woakes no good.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 8:52 am

JDizzle wrote:To be fair, he's posted the comment on his brother's facebook assuming that it would be private. Obviously it doesn't make his choice of words any better but it's not like he's said it to a journalist or tweeted it to his hundred thousands of followers. I think his apology, followed by a private slap on the wrists/small fine or donation to a charity would suffice.

Really?
Can't see anyone defending Swann on this. There are things you should never think let alone say.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 8:54 am

Linebreaker wrote:I wasn't saying the team having been claiming greater status than they deserved, alfie - just some of the members on here (and from other places and people) have probably over-rated the England team - given those very major blips in their "consistent" record of late. Maybe one or two players in the team too... but not all of them of course.

I was more so reacting to a few posts on this thread and throwing the idea out there (based on recent results) that one can also have a different understanding of the phrase "world class", and often used words like "brilliant", "dominant", "class of his own", etc. That's a fair enough comment to make I'm sure you'd agree.

To be fair there were people asking if this was the best England side ever after they beat India etc.

What we have seen in the last decade is no team able to dominate test cricket for a sustained period. Australia fell away, India boomed and busted in exactly the way England have done, and now even South Africa who were looking to be the clear front runners are getting a serious does of unwanted anal probing from India on real home pitch.
Noone including the Australians could really have expected ( hoped and believed maybe) this series would've gone like this any more than they expected England to turn round the India series.

On the big scale this is good for test cricket, it's nice to feel that tours aren't forgone conclusions before they even start.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 8:56 am

Linebreaker wrote:There are things you should never think let alone say.

Someone should've told Ian Botham that before his prediction to this series.



Would anyone have had a problem if swan had "murdered"?
That's where I find this odd ... The word he did use is commonly used by the Internet generations in exactly the same way murdered is. If he'd posted on a victims Facebook page " I'd rather have been getting that than beaten by Australia" I could get the fuss.
But really this is a case of people wanting to be offended.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:04 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:There are things you should never think let alone say.

Someone should've told Ian Botham that before his prediction to this series.



Would anyone have had a problem if swan had "murdered"?
That's where I find this odd ... The word he did use is commonly used by the Internet generations in exactly the same way murdered is. If he'd posted on a victims Facebook page " I'd rather have been getting that than beaten by Australia" I could get the fuss.
But really this is a case of people wanting to be offended.

Couldn't agree more peter tbh
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46250
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 23
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:06 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:The above comment re "magic bullet" seems totally off  - surely this is exactly what Flower does not do
why was then Woakes dumped....for good after just one test...where he didn't do bad really...averaging 42 with the bat and taking a wicket also.

what did he expect from Woakes ???

42 runs over two innings and 1-96 with the ball is hardly a " what more do you expect" demand for being selected for a tour which doesn't suit your bowling I it.

.
he averaged 42...and scored them over ONE finished inning.
In a match where Aussie declared ....his 1 wicket and more important hitting upto 87mph pace showed he had potential with the ball also...and 87 mph is fast and would trouble batsmen on any pitches.

any yet dumped means they were expecting magic bullet from him in that game.

This whole talk of pitches that dont' suit his style is a hogwash......a subjective excuse that can be used for many players in many conditions
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:07 am

I certainly can't disagree with that, Peter.

On another note (and off topic)... it's nice to see and hear Sir Viv in the commentary box for the BB match tonight at the SCG. He's alongside Junior Waugh and Gilly. 

I was lucky (or unlucky) enough to see him absolutely destroy Australia in both formats many times. Those matches were always foregone conclusions!

Mike Hussey at the crease now. Warner (just out for 50 off 31) and Steve Smith are both playing in opposing teams. Clarke in the dug-out too.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:08 am

Olly wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:There are things you should never think let alone say.

Someone should've told Ian Botham that before his prediction to this series.



Would anyone have had a problem if swan had "murdered"?
That's where I find this odd ... The word he did use is commonly used by the Internet generations in exactly the same way murdered is. If he'd posted on a victims Facebook page " I'd rather have been getting that than beaten by Australia" I could get the fuss.
But really this is a case of people wanting to be offended.

Couldn't agree more peter tbh

Yeah I agree as well. Perfectly fine to say that "we flipping murdered them" but say r**e - eeek.

Some people really need to take (cough) a joke.

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:14 am

It might sound like a joke to you. The guy was way out of order.

You 3 (PSW, Olly & Duty) can defend him all you like. Not many people would be impressed with your weak defence of his comment.


Last edited by Linebreaker on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:14 am

Would anyone have had a problem if swan had "murdered"?
That's where I find this odd ... The word he did use is commonly used by the Internet generations in exactly the same way murdered is. If he'd posted on a victims Facebook page " I'd rather have been getting that than beaten by Australia" I could get the fuss.
But really this is a case of people wanting to be offended

there is a language that common guys drinking in the evening at every street corner bar/pub use....and we all hear and know that kinda talk

However people in public domain/ national stars/ ambassadors of their country are expected and required to show dignity in conduct and choice of words.

But since they didn't find offensive urinating on the pitch..... I am not surprised that there is a tendency to forgive / overlook / dilute these comments of Swann
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:31 am

KP_fan wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:The above comment re "magic bullet" seems totally off  - surely this is exactly what Flower does not do
why was then Woakes dumped....for good after just one test...where he didn't do bad really...averaging 42 with the bat and taking a wicket also.

what did he expect from Woakes ???

42 runs over two innings and 1-96 with the ball is hardly a " what more do you expect" demand for being selected for a tour which doesn't suit your bowling I it.

.
he averaged 42...and scored them over ONE finished inning.
In a match where Aussie declared ....his 1 wicket and more important hitting upto  87mph pace showed he had potential with the ball also...and 87 mph is fast and would trouble batsmen on any pitches.

any yet dumped means they were expecting  magic bullet from him in that game.

This whole talk of pitches that dont' suit his style is a hogwash......a subjective excuse that can be used for many players in many conditions



Twist it any way you like but he was the lowest scoring player in England's top 7 ( and swann out scored him) and had the worst match bowling figures of all England's seamers including trott.

Both him a Kerrigan were given a shot in a dead rubber to press a case for the future not this tour.
They will get more meaningful cricket and experience with the lions.

Werent you defending Tahir on the grounds he shouldn't have been picked in that pitch on the other thread( a good post btw)?
The obsession you have with pet anti flower theories does you no favours when you change your own beliefs and twist statistics to suit.

A better argument is that they eithe should've picked stokes over the summer with a view to using him this winter it given woakes a shot earlier in the summer and more games. But really I'd see him as lucky to have been given one at all, and England clearly still have him down as a future test player despite him failing to deliver in all formats for them.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 9:54 am

Twist it any way you like but he was the lowest scoring player in England's top 7 ( and swann out scored him) and had the worst match bowling figures of all England's seamers including trott.

Both him a Kerrigan were given a shot in a dead rubber to press a case for the future not this tour
.

--I can see you twisting...dead rubber...top-7, Swann , outscored , different pitches etc........but are skirting a simple issue....once he was picked and he didn't do bad...not only was he dropped from the 11 but also 15.

--re: Tahir.....we are talking about fair run to debutants and Tahir doesn't fall in that category
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:05 am

KP_fan wrote:
Twist it any way you like but he was the lowest scoring player in England's top 7 ( and swann out scored him) and had the worst match bowling figures of all England's seamers including trott.

Both him a Kerrigan were given a shot in a dead rubber to press a case for the future not this tour
.

--I can see you twisting...dead rubber...top-7, Swann , outscored , different  pitches etc........but are skirting a simple issue....once he was picked and he didn't do bad...not only was he dropped from the 11 but also 15.

--re: Tahir.....we are talking about fair run to debutants and Tahir doesn't fall in that category


He did do badly ( certainly not well) .....and that wasn't England's first choice 11.

It would have been detrimental to his career to come on this tour. Instead he's the lions captain and has a chance to progress his game and prove he's worth a genuine place in the side this summer and ahead for series he may be of genuine value in.
I'm pretty sure this would have been communicated to him both before and after the test he got rather than flower just saying " yeah we kinda hoped you'd get a double century there and grow 6 inches and bo with your left arm at 90mph, we will never pick you again".



Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:11 am

He did do badly ( certainly not well) .....and that wasn't England's first choice 11.

42 runs , 1 wicket, 87mph pace is not bad..unless the exepctation off him was to be a magic bullet that will penetrate with 100 runs and 5 wickets all in the first game.

It would have been detrimental to his career to come on this tour. Instead he's the lions captain and has a chance to progress his game and prove he's worth a genuine place in the side this summer and ahead for series he may be of genuine value in.
I'm pretty sure this would have been communicated to him both before and after the test he got rather than flower just saying " yeah we kinda hoped you'd get a double century there and grow 6 inches and bo with your left arm at 90mph, we will never pick you again".


nothing can be more detrimental to his career to be carried around in the squad of 15...given a game where he didn't do bad and be de dumped from the 15 and not just 11.

and whether he was talked to and assured we do not know but he would know it doesn't matter much even if he was....for he would look at likes of Taylor, Onions, Compton...once they are out....they never re-enter
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:17 am

Linebreaker wrote:It might sound like a joke to you. The guy was way out of order.

You 3 (PSW, Olly & Duty) can defend him all you like. Not many people would be impressed with your weak defence of his comment.

You're honestly telling me that r**e is worse than murder?

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:29 am

KP_fan - feel you're overdoing the 'fairness' aspect. Professional sport is tough and Test cricket especially so.

A case can be made either way as to how good or not Woakes' Test debut was. However, he certainly did not make an unanswerable case for inclusion in this tour party. Surely, that is what he needed to do for your gripe about his current exclusion to stand up. It is all about taking opportunity. Woakes didn't, at least not sufficiently in the short term for the selectors. Whilst he has no automatic right to a specified number of chances, it's not as if the selectors have told him that he'll never play for his country again - his captaincy of the forthcoming Lions tour shows he's still in their thoughts.

As we all know, the selectors went instead for Stokes on this Ashes tour. That was their call and seems so far to be at least one proved right.

guildfordbat

Posts : 12992
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:37 am

Duty281 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:It might sound like a joke to you. The guy was way out of order.

You 3 (PSW, Olly & Duty) can defend him all you like. Not many people would be impressed with your weak defence of his comment.

You're honestly telling me that r**e is worse than murder?

What are you on about? They're both totally unacceptable. What bit don't you understand? You're still defending Swann I see. Shame on you.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49400
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Duty281 on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 10:58 am

Linebreaker wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:It might sound like a joke to you. The guy was way out of order.

You 3 (PSW, Olly & Duty) can defend him all you like. Not many people would be impressed with your weak defence of his comment.

You're honestly telling me that r**e is worse than murder?

What are you on about? They're both totally unacceptable. What bit don't you understand? You're still defending Swann I see. Shame on you.

I'm merely confused about why it's OK to say "murdered" to describe a sporting event - as you may often see -  but it's a massive taboo and completely wrong to use the word "r***".

Duty281

Posts : 19981
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:19 am

guildfordbat wrote:KP_fan - feel you're overdoing the 'fairness' aspect. Professional sport is tough and Test cricket especially so.

A case can be made either way as to how good or not Woakes' Test debut was. However, he certainly did not make an unanswerable case for inclusion in this tour party. Surely, that is what he needed to do for your gripe about his current exclusion to stand up. It is all about taking opportunity. Woakes didn't, at least not sufficiently in the short term for the selectors. Whilst he has no automatic right to a specified number of chances, it's not as if the selectors have told him that he'll never play for his country again - his captaincy of the forthcoming Lions tour shows he's still in their thoughts.

As we all know, the selectors went instead for Stokes on this Ashes tour. That was their call and seems so far to be at least one proved right.

One test is impossible to make a case.......once a player is selected...he's gotta be given about 3 tests

KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by alfie on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:47 am

Linebreaker wrote:I wasn't saying the team having been claiming greater status than they deserved, alfie - just some of the members on here (and from other places and people) have probably over-rated the England team - given those very major blips in their "consistent" record of late. Maybe one or two players in the team too... but not all of them of course.

I was more so reacting to a few posts on this thread and throwing the idea out there (based on recent results) that one can also have a different understanding of the phrase "world class", and often used words like "brilliant", "dominant", "class of his own", etc. That's a fair enough comment to make I'm sure you'd agree.

OK , fair enough , lb ...but if you re-read your own last sentence you will perhaps see why I took it that way ; that bit about chest beating over beating a weak Australian team was unfair in my book. All I saw was a team celebrating a rare - and very decisive - win down under.  No more vigorously than Australia are , quite rightly , celebrating now.  Didn't see any disrespect for the opposition or claiming legend status.

As you say , some fans go a bit OTT ; but that is another matter.  Fans are allowed to be a bit crazy  Smile 

Anyway , no matter.  We are now in interesting times , with teams turning form around quite quickly , and results no longer a foregone conclusion.  Probably more interesting than having a dominant team around ?


Last edited by alfie on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : .)

alfie

Posts : 10896
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:54 am

KP_fan wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:KP_fan - feel you're overdoing the 'fairness' aspect. Professional sport is tough and Test cricket especially so.

A case can be made either way as to how good or not Woakes' Test debut was. However, he certainly did not make an unanswerable case for inclusion in this tour party. Surely, that is what he needed to do for your gripe about his current exclusion to stand up. It is all about taking opportunity. Woakes didn't, at least not sufficiently in the short term for the selectors. Whilst he has no automatic right to a specified number of chances, it's not as if the selectors have told him that he'll never play for his country again - his captaincy of the forthcoming Lions tour shows he's still in their thoughts.

As we all know, the selectors went instead for Stokes on this Ashes tour. That was their call and seems so far to be at least one proved right.

One test is impossible to make a case.......once a player is selected...he's gotta be given about 3 tests


Let's not forget Woakes has been given plenty of chances in one day and t20 for England, and hasn't exactly set the world alight there.

He'll get another chance, but when you're given one you have to take it like Root did in India and Stokes has done this Ashes
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46250
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 23
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by KP_fan on Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:58 am

Let's not forget Woakes has been given plenty of chances in one day and t20 for England, and hasn't exactly set the world alight there.


nothing wrong with that Rationale using T20 and ODI performances to judge test potential.....but even this rationale has to be applied with fairness and consistency.
In which case Bopara & Morgan should be in the test squads  Cool 
KP_fan
KP_fan

Posts : 7391
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions - Page 2 Empty Re: Ashes Series 2013-14: General Discussions

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum