4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Page 6 of 10 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 25 Dec 2013, 7:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Boxing Day test match is upon us people!

There are rumoured to be a few changes to the England side, one of course enforced with the retirement on Graeme Swann. There hasn't been too much about who will replace him, Panesar would be the obvious choice. The other all but confirmed move will be Jonny Bairstow taking Prior's place.


Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, JE Root, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SCJ Broad, TT Bresnan, JM Anderson, MS Panesar


With the series already over, lets hope we just get to see some good cricket. From an English point of view, lets not lose 5-0!!

Now back to the Christmas pudding for me...
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46759
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 24
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down


4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 10:47 am

Duty281 wrote:Relax, this is going to be the best thing to happen to English cricket in the long-run.

Get battered now, and we at last draw a line under the last four years - and the tired team we have been since the UAE.

Cook should stay as captain - this experience will make him all the stronger - but I do really think it's time for Flower to go. Then England can start again with a renewed impetus.

(1) You will never, ever convince me that this Australian team is better than this English team because, quite frankly, they're not. England were 5/10 in the summer, but they've been 2/10 in this series. Tired and pathetic. More a case of England being bad than Australia being good, although Australia have been plenty of the latter at times.

5-0? Bring it on. It could just be the perfect tonic for England in the long-run - similar to when Australia humilated England in the rugby once, and a few years later, England were world champions.

(2) Come on Australia - humiliate us. England needs it.

1. You clearly haven't watched a single minute of this series then, if that is your honest opinion.

2. If you really believe (1) why then do you want Australia to humiliate England, forcing a clear-out?


As I've said countless times before, England have plenty of talented and technically good cricketers. The current England side is probably a fair reflection of the best we have. Unfortunately, where we cannot match the truly great teams is in the mental / psychological aspect of the game. Our players just don't have then mental strength to cope with pressure...especially against a team like Australia who are known for particularly hostile sledging and other less-than-gentlemanly tactics.

If we don't have conditions that help our players, we cannot adapt our style of play or tactics and crumble all too easily when the opposition begins to dominate. Perfect example of this is KP who has openly stated he refuses to change his style of play, no matter how many times he gets out with stupid shots. The sooner England are rid of him too, the better - the man is just a liability.

In a nutshell, we don't have the bottle to compete with the best. Nothing could demonstrate this more clearly than this latest debacle. For the first time this series, England got themselves a 1st innings lead, but STILL contrived to throw the match away in an utterly abysmal 2nd innings display. Absolutely pathetic.
dyrewolfe
dyrewolfe

Posts : 6396
Join date : 2011-03-13
Location : Restaurant at the end of the Universe

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:02 am

Doesn't make sense though , Duty.

If you think this England team is actually intrinsically good enough , but just massively underperforming ; how will a 5-0 hammering help ?

Team is struggling because several players are hugely out of form , others have vanished and others just aren't quite good enough in the first place.
New coach is not automatically going to fix all that.

Flower may well go. But I'd still rather fight back and win this and the next than get battered to death.
Then whoever is in charge can get on with making the changes they need without total panic setting in.

If they can't replace an opener and a number six in three years I don't fancy a major overhaul on the back of a whitewash ...

If I get a choice , of course  Smile 

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:02 am

I am normally like the Monty Python team ('Always look on the bright side of life') but the way England meekly surrendered initiative after working so hard to get it leaves it hard to find any positives. The only one I can think of is that at least England have been a little more competitive in this test.

With Australia in cruise-mode in the run chase closing with only 200 runs left needed and ten wickets standing then 4-0 looks a certainty. England will kick themselves whilst Australia get an extra boost that even when their levels drop they can still beat England. So much for Australia not being too bothered now that the series was over eh?
CaledonianCraig
CaledonianCraig

Posts : 18918
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 51
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:14 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Relax, this is going to be the best thing to happen to English cricket in the long-run.

Get battered now, and we at last draw a line under the last four years - and the tired team we have been since the UAE.

Cook should stay as captain - this experience will make him all the stronger - but I do really think it's time for Flower to go. Then England can start again with a renewed impetus.

(1) You will never, ever convince me that this Australian team is better than this English team because, quite frankly, they're not. England were 5/10 in the summer, but they've been 2/10 in this series. Tired and pathetic. More a case of England being bad than Australia being good, although Australia have been plenty of the latter at times.

5-0? Bring it on. It could just be the perfect tonic for England in the long-run - similar to when Australia humilated England in the rugby once, and a few years later, England were world champions.

(2) Come on Australia - humiliate us. England needs it.

1. You clearly haven't watched a single minute of this series then, if that is your honest opinion.

2. If you really believe (1) why then do you want Australia to humiliate England, forcing a clear-out?


As I've said countless times before, England have plenty of talented and technically good cricketers. The current England side is probably a fair reflection of the best we have. Unfortunately, where we cannot match the truly great teams is in the mental / psychological aspect of the game. Our players just don't have then mental strength to cope with pressure...especially against a team like Australia who are known for particularly hostile sledging and other less-than-gentlemanly tactics.

If we don't have conditions that help our players, we cannot adapt our style of play or tactics and crumble all too easily when the opposition begins to dominate. Perfect example of this is KP who has openly stated he refuses to change his style of play, no matter how many times he gets out with stupid shots. The sooner England are rid of him too, the better - the man is just a liability.

In a nutshell, we don't have the bottle to compete with the best. Nothing could demonstrate this more clearly than this latest debacle. For the first time this series, England got themselves a 1st innings lead, but STILL contrived to throw the match away in an utterly abysmal 2nd innings display. Absolutely pathetic.

Because England have woefully underperformed. England have tamely surrendered the series; it's been more a case of England being bad, and I mean really, atrociously bad, than Australia being good. England were rank average in the summer, but still managed to win 3-0. Tells you all you need to know. That didn't wake England up out of their stupor, because they won.

Australia aren't that good - their top order has one world-class batsman, and the rest are inconsistent - more miss than hit. The bowlers are good though, although they can be a tad inconsistent at times.

England are much better on paper - Cook and KP are world-class, Bell is superb, Root has the potential to be a star, Stokes looks a fantastic prospect, Prior was the best WK in the world not too long ago. Then there's Anderson and Broad, two match-winning bowlers to match Johnson and Harris, with able support from a good third seamer - whoever he is!

But England haven't shown that they're better. Why not? Because they're drastically underprepared, un-motivated, and probably thought that they could push Australia out of the way while half-asleep like back in Blighty.

So England need a battering to shake them out of their sleep. A battering to change the head coach. A battering to change direction.

We've been sleeping ever since the 4-0 against India, although England did briefly rise to give India another slap.

Wake up England - a 5-0 might just do that. The last time England lost 5-0, they conquered the world in four years.

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:31 am

This a more competent and consistent Australian side than we saw in the last couple of Ashes Series but they are not a patch on the dominant Australian sides of the 1990's and early 2000's. Just like this current England side (form-wise) is not a patch on England sides of the late 2000's and very early 2010's.
CaledonianCraig
CaledonianCraig

Posts : 18918
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 51
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:36 am

alfie wrote:Goodnight guildford.  Hope you wake to good news.

A belated thank you, Alfie. However, as we now know too well, I woke to anything but good news. From a comforting 100 plus lead with all 10 in hand to another nightmare scenario.

Many of the professional pundits here are saying that no side has reached 260 in this match and so a 4th innings total in excess of 230 is still difficult. I appreciate that but feel the more relevant stat now is that Australia require 201 with all wickets left. From their first scoring shot, our lead could be less than 200. That last wicket partnership of Haddin and Lyon now seems all the more significant.

I wondered a day ago if Haddin's knock would be game saving and changing. Not proven to be the case yet but I fear it will be. One thing I did manage to get right from day one is that Lyon would play a part in this match. He bowled well on the very first morning and I was surprised he didn't get a better return in our first dig. This time, the odd bit of luck and a series deserving fivefer to take him to 100 Test wickets. Good to see him stepping from the back row of the chorus to centre stage. Mind you, you still can't keep Johnson out of things - another 3 wickets as our tail again fell like a Jenga tower being played by a Christmas drunk!

They both have excuses but again neither Stokes and Bairstow were able to hit 20 having reached double figures. That's actually a serious concern that most of the professional pundits have ignored.

That's it for now. Off to Mrs Bat's mother's for the day.

guildfordbat

Posts : 13203
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:41 am

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Goodnight guildford.  Hope you wake to good news.



That's it for now. Off to Mrs Bat's mother's for the day.

Dare I say it - the Old Bat??  laughing 
CaledonianCraig
CaledonianCraig

Posts : 18918
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 51
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 11:54 am

Duty, the only one who needs "a battering" is you, mate. 

Go take a couple of reality pills and have a good lie down!

You have seriously deluded yourself (once again) and every, single other decent English poster on here shouldn't have to read through your embarrassing remarks... and neither should I!

Sure, England will re-group and no doubt there is further cleaning out of the cupboard required when they return home - but drop this battering nonsense, please. They must be well aware of where things are going wrong but a calm head is required in such situations... none of your knee-jerk reaction nonsense will help their cause. They'll know better than you (and me). For certs!
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49795
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Near a forest

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:02 pm

Linebreaker wrote:Duty, the only one who needs "a battering" is you, mate. 

Go take a couple of reality pills and have a good lie down!

You have seriously deluded yourself (once again) and every, single other decent English poster on here shouldn't have to read through your embarrassing remarks... and neither should I!

Sure, England will re-group and no doubt there is further cleaning out of the cupboard required when they return home - but drop this battering nonsense, please. They must be well aware of where things are going wrong but a calm head is required in such situations... none of your knee-jerk reaction nonsense will help their cause. They'll know better than you. For certs!

What do you suggest Linebreaker?

This isn't a knee-jerk, this is something that has been needed for two years.

Look at how the high the standards were on the field by England during the last Winter Ashes, or during the 4-0 over India. It was wonderful, but it hasn't been matched since.

And nothing has jolted England back into that same, highly-motivated, highly-performing group of players. Being beaten by Pakistan and South Africa didn't do it. Being saved by the weather in New Zealand didn't do it. So surely only a battering will make the ECB realise - hang on, it isn't all going swimmingly here.

One thing's for sure - if we play India next summer, and India will be bang up for it I assure you after double defeat, with Flower still the coach, and the same old team playing, then England will get destroyed by a hungrier, fitter, better team. There is no doubt of that in my mind.

Wake up England.

Oh and I'm not sure what the percieved reality is. That everything is fine? Because it isn't. That it'll all come good next summer? It won't. Because this Australia are a world no.1 team in the making? Because they're not.

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:05 pm

To be fair to Duty, it's not a vintage Australian side. It's a good one, playing cricket out of their skins in this series but England haven't helped themselves at all. The debate to be had is have Australia just not allowed to play well or have England just not allowed themselves to play well.

So well played to Australia this series, they've been the best team in every single aspect (and convincingly is pretty much all of those aspects too) and they thoroughly deserve this victory but I can't see (I hop anyway) this ushering in a new era of Australian dominance.

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:09 pm

JDizzle wrote:To be fair to Duty, it's not a vintage Australian side. It's a good one, playing cricket out of their skins in this series but England haven't helped themselves at all. The debate to be had is have Australia just not allowed to play well or have England just not allowed themselves to play well.

So well played to Australia this series, they've been the best team in every single aspect (and convincingly is pretty much all of those aspects too) and they thoroughly deserve this victory but I can't see (I hop anyway) this ushering in a new era of Australian dominance.

I get the feeling that, over the course of this series and the last, England have surrendered the majority of their wickets, rather than Australia prising them out through skillful bowling.

Last time England made 400? Around 25 innings ago now. Still, the bowlers have been carrying them for near-enough a year now.

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

Ok , Duty : solutions please ...

Cook
?
?
KP
Bell
Stokes ?
Prior/Bairstow/A N Other
?
Broad
Anderson
?

Unless you can come up with some remotely sensible suggestions that might actually improve the team , I cannot take your call for revolution seriously.

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:28 pm

alfie wrote:Ok , Duty : solutions please ...

Cook
?
?
KP
Bell
Stokes ?
Prior/Bairstow/A N Other
?
Broad
Anderson
?

Unless you can come up with some remotely sensible suggestions that might actually improve the team , I cannot take your call for revolution seriously.

Move Root up to open, bring Balance in at 5, move Bell up to 3 in the batting department.

Bowling wise bring Finn in as the 3rd seamer, and then a spinner who will probably have to be Monty for the time being.

Personally bring Prior back in, he is only 31.

What I'd do
Good Golly I'm Olly
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 46759
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 24
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:30 pm

What do I suggest? 

The Linebreaker Survival Method - gracefully accept that your team is not up to scratch this time and give credit where credit is due. (I had to do this too you know... it seems to be the less painful way of dealing with a loss)

What you also need to realise is that in sport - your team can be sailing along fine - then bang, bang, bang. They come down to earth with a thud. It's only natural.

As an example, when Australia were at their peak every other team (i.e. India, SA and England) wanted "a piece of them". So what did they do? They obviously studied the reasons and methods behind their success and then tried to emulate them - and added a bit extra. Or identified certain weaknesses and attacked those. The result is that the new "top dog" then has lifted the bar through sheer hard work (as you imply) but then so too have the other teams with the similar objective (i.e. India and SA)... nipping at their heels or getting brushed side as was the case in India.

Don't get me wrong. I know how it feels to follow a side with passion and pride too. So does everyone else on here. You just have to accept that the wheel keeps turning - and there are many motivating factors and 'unforeseeable' elements to the big picture.

Also - I don't know whether you've been to Oz... but just try standing outside on a really hot day (as in Perth or Melbourne today). These guys are all very fit but it is quite a brutal environment really. They did so well in 2010/11 (when it was probably 10-15 deg C cooler on average compared to our hottest year on record - 2013)

Our blokes feel it too (but we are more used to it and are obviously better prepared for it this year) and were highly motivated. That's a huge driver. Although the results seem very one-sided - don't forget margins for error are very small and for the majority of the time the teams are relatively competitive and evenly matched. Scoreboard pressure can easily lead to fielding errors - just look at Oz at home last time around. As I keep saying - it's almost a mirror reverse.

Don't know if that's answered your question but I'd suggest you acknowledge the way Australia have turned things around (after how many failed attempts?) and this time we seem to be bearing some fruit. Having said that: there was a time today (when Cook & Carbs were out there; Harris' ankle was playing up, Watto... almost useless!) and I thought that this team won't be able to take on SA in Feb. We need fresh legs and minds too and mustn't make the mistake of resting on our laurels. Otherwise, it could be an embarrassing situation for us again in SA even though Australia has a great record there.


Last edited by Linebreaker on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49795
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Near a forest

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:33 pm

alfie wrote:Ok , Duty : solutions please ...

Cook
?
?
KP
Bell
Stokes ?
Prior/Bairstow/A N Other
?
Broad
Anderson
?

Unless you can come up with some remotely sensible suggestions that might actually improve the team , I cannot take your call for revolution seriously.

Not calling for a massive revolution sir, merely that the coach needs to be changed and we shouldn't be sleepwalking into next summer against India. Something like:

Cook (C), Robson, Root, Bell, Pietersen (although Ballance and Taylor are probably not to far off), Stokes, Prior, Broad, Anderson, Borthwick/Briggs, and a 3rd seamer.

Cook remains, Robson blooded early, Root looks fine there for now, Bell and KP swap around, Stokes is the future, Prior deserves another chance and I'm not convince by Bairstow or Buttler, Broad and Anderson remain, Borthwick or Briggs for spinner, and the 3rd seamer is as problematic as ever.

Does Onions get another shot? Will Finn recover? Surely too early for Mills. A punt on Woakes? Stick with reliable Tim? Give Tremlett a shot at redemption?

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:35 pm

I think we can assume, if they all want to continue, that Cook, KP, Bell, Broad and Anderson are all nailed on to start in the summer.

Prior will get another chance in the summer I feel. He has been good enough to deserve it and it is clear Bairstow is not his heir apparent yet.

Stokes has impressed, but normally they say an all rounder balances the side but he actually unbalances it slightly! Not really a sixth batsman and not really a third seamer. He'll be stuck with, but where depends on the coach.

Root has struggled. He has all the tools but he's not been helped out by being moved about. He's not a number 3 really yet so he either bats 5/6 or he goes and plays some more CC. In my head, Cook, Bell and KP are my 1-3-4 so it is a good time to bring in a new opener, like a Robson rather than a Carberry or Compton. Other options in the middle order include Taylor (my pick), Vince or even an Moeen.

Finn is my third seamer, unless they go with Stokes or even Woakes to add some more depth the bat and him and Stokes to bowl the thrid seamer overs. And Panesar to be the spinner whilst the young guys get some more experience under their belts. Would like to discover a new left armer for some variation, but there is no-one out there ready yet. Definitely not Tymal Mills.

Cook-Robson-Bell-KP-Taylor-Stokes-Prior-Woakes-Broad-Panesar-Anderson.

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:40 pm

Linebreaker wrote:What do I suggest? 

The Linebreaker Survival Method - gracefully accept that your team is not up to scratch this time and give credit where credit is due. (I had to do this too you know... it seems to be the less painful way of dealing with a loss)

What you also need to realise is that in sport - your team can be sailing along fine - then bang, bang, bang. They come down to earth with a thud. It's only natural.

As an example, when Australia were at their peak every other team (i.e. India, SA and England) wanted "a piece of them". So what did they do? They obviously studied the reasons and methods behind their success and then tried to emulate them - and added a bit extra. Or identified certain weaknesses and attacked those. The result is that the new "top dog" then has lifted the bar through sheer hard work (as you imply) but then so too have the other teams with the similar objective (i.e. India and SA)... nipping at their heels or getting brushed side as was the case in India.

Don't get me wrong. I know how it feels to follow a side with passion and pride too. So does everyone else on here. You just have to accept that the wheel keeps turning - and there are many motivating factors and 'unforeseeable' elements to the big picture.

Also - I don't know whether you've been to Oz... but just try standing outside on a really hot day (as in Perth or Melbourne today). These guys are all very fit but it is quite a brutal environment really. They did so well in 2010/11 (when it was probably 10-15 deg C cooler on average compared to our hottest year on record - 2013)

Our blokes feel it too (but we are more used to it and are obviously better prepared for it this year) and were highly motivated. That's a huge driver. Although the results seem very one-sided - don't forget margins for error are very small and for the majority of the time the teams are relatively competitive and evenly matched. Scoreboard pressure can easily lead to fielding errors - just look at Oz at home last time around. As I keep saying - it's almost a mirror reverse.

Don't know if that's answered your question but I'd suggest you acknowledge the way Australia have turned things around (after how many failed attempts?) and this time we seem to be bearing some fruit. Having said that: there was a time today (when Cook & Carbs were out there; Harris' ankle was playing up, Watto... almost useless!) and I thought that this team won't be able to take on SA in Feb. We need fresh legs and minds too and mustn't make the mistake of resting on our laurels. Otherwise, it could be an embarrassing situation for us again in SA even though Australia has a great record there.

But I have accepted that England aren't up to scratch, and I have accepted that Australia have played well. I've merely suggested that it's more of the former than the latter because England have surrendered a lot of their wickets meekly, although credit does go to the Australian seamers, especially Mitch who, as I previously alluded to, is a joy to watch in full pelt.

And England haven't been sailing along fine since August 2011. Rubbish in the UAE, average in Sri Lanka (one of KP's majestic innings and Swann saved us), below average against the WI, poor against a brilliant South African side, briefly woke up for two tests in India, very average against New Zealand both times, pretty poor in the summer against Australia (bowlers digging England out, Anderson winning it almost single-handed at Trent Bridge, Broad likewise in Durham), and now utterly, utterly abysmal this winter, throwing away Test after Test.

England have been crying out for a change at the top since summer 2012, not just a shuffle in the captaincy. Well this is the result when you don't change.

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:42 pm

Trouble is the young guns given a chance haven't done anything to displace the old guard, even before this tour. Even the saviour of English cricket (root) hasn't done much since an initial run if form.
Stokes is given a disproportionate amount if praise for em he's essentially the type of cricketer England used to call " the new botham" shortly before realising they would never average above 39 with the bat and below 40 with the ball for a sustained period.
Bairstow has been given several chances now and continues to disappoint, he doesn't look like a big game batsman.
Finn is the one who can perhaps feel aggrieved at not having had more opportunities at test level. He doesn't fit the game plan but in a five man attack ( with stokes woakes or borthwick dependent on conditions ) England could carry a genuine fast ( medium ) bowler.
We've seen both sides of the argument on tht point:
Australian batsmn got themselves out against accurate bowling, no need for the magic ace. But when they do get set and figure out how to score England have no magic bowler who can create wickets. It's not even like haddin is boycott or Dravid, he's a fairly good aggressive batsman who England have been utterly unable to worry in this series.

The change is already being forced to an extent anyway. At least one if broad and Anderson will get rested for part of the summer. Swann is gone, trott is unlikely to return and priory future is uncertain. Carberry is the wrong side if 33 and has done nothing to suggest he's test class (scoring more runs than ian bell in australia should nit be th sole selection criteron) so is unlikely to last past the summer unless he does something remarkable.

Which leaves England in the situation Australia were a couple if years ago.
They messed about with all kinda if young bucks like Hughes and kweuhzhhdhdkxja who let them down Time and again, and a skew of fast bowlers who go more injuries than wickets.
They've ended up with a side full of old guys with a point prove with a coach who lets them go out drinking and encourage them to be themselves even if that include being odious. Will that usher in a glorious new era of world domination? I doubt it but it sure as hell given them the stink on England for now despite having some pretty average players in their side.

England will have to experiment with the kids, stokes will have to prove he's a real threat and that the century wasn't a flashy in the pan. Root will have to get his confidence back.
Otherwise they will be forced to look at the Australia model and give guys like bopara a call. Again. Compared to bairstow his test record is good.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:46 pm

Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Ok , Duty : solutions please ...

Cook
?
?
KP
Bell
Stokes ?
Prior/Bairstow/A N Other
?
Broad
Anderson
?

Unless you can come up with some remotely sensible suggestions that might actually improve the team , I cannot take your call for revolution seriously.

Move Root up to open, bring Balance in at 5, move Bell up to 3 in the batting department.

Bowling wise bring Finn in as the 3rd seamer, and then a spinner who will probably have to be Monty for the time being.

Personally bring Prior back in, he is only 31.

What I'd do

I suppose moving bell to three Is one way in protecting him from te devilish bowling if the unreadable Lyon?

Let's assume flower goes. That at least gives them the option of talking to Compton again in the short term till root shows any sign if being happy near the top 3 let alone opening.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 12:54 pm

Yeah, I know Duty.
England have been hot and cold for while now.
Australia have been cold but have been continually warming up. OK, a few times they've turned off the gas (themselves!).

For SA; I think we seriously need to consider resting Harris and 'resting' Watto.

The word is that Pattinson, Cummins and Starc will be ready (if not already back in action on the quiet). I just feel we need to attack SA with fresh, sharp spears rather than old, blunt axes and swords.

We definitely can't continue to carry Watson (that was embarrassing yesterday and today... and it's not for the first time either) and Ryan (as much as I admire his massive contributions) is only a short way away from breaking down again. Besides, the other guys are jumping at the bit and some have already had success in SA. We'll have to fight fire with fire and hope our batting continues to improve.
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49795
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Near a forest

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:08 pm

Well good ...I seem to have got people making practical suggestions rather than just bemoaning what a rubbish mob the current team is  Smile 

Far as I can see most people favour two , possibly three changes . Which doesn't seem unreasonable to me. We all have slightly different ideas as to who should be trialled next ; but that is ok ...the selectors will be making that call.
Doesn't seem axiomatic to me that Flower has to go before these changes are made. Pretty sure he will be looking to make adjustments anyway , if he chooses to stay on.
A few people want to sack him ; and I understand why : fresh approach , circuit breaker etc...but I am not sure Giles or some other candidate can be relied upon to do a better job. Remember , this is the guy that got England to the top : and if they have been wobbling around for a couple of years , how do you know he hasn't been the main factor responsible for making sure they have been up and down rather than falling straight off a cliff ?
Since Trott and Swann are gone , like Strauss ; and you all want two or three other changes anyway , the issue of freshness seems to be somewhat taken care of from the playing group side  Smile 

Whatever - a change at the top may help . And for all I know Flower won't want to try and climb the mountain again. But if he does , I reckon we should have a bit of a think before discarding him in what could just possibly be construed as a knee jerk...

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:10 pm

For me England have a number of problems both in terms of personnel and the way in which they approach games.
Firstly they have to fill a number of 'problem' positions in their team. They have to decide on a long-term partner for Cook (Carberry's done OK, but is he really the solution?), they need to settle on a number 3 (has to be Bell for me), they have to decide whether Prior deserves another shot or stick with Bairstow/A.N. Other. They have to settle on a third seamer, Bresnan? Finn? Rankin? A.N. Other?. They have to settle on a spinner. Keep Monty or bring in someone like Borthwick?
In addition, England also have to learn to be flexible in their tactics and be able to alter their mind set for different situations (a difficult skill to master). England under Flower have played safety first, percentage cricket. Nothing wrong with that, and it has been highly effective and has suited the players at their disposal but, as this series has demonstrated, when teams play aggressively against them, refusing to be tied down by the English bowlers, and not allowing England to simply accumulate runs when batting, England struggle to react to that situation with the neccessary aggression themselves.
Of course, that's not to say that Australia haven't been 'lucky' in having two players, Johnson and Haddin, who have both made vital differences to the outcomes of these matches, but I do think that, overall, it has been Australia's aggressive play, and England's inability to respond in kind, that has broken England. While KP_fan may be a bit over the top in his criticisms, I do agree that, at times, England's 'defensive' mind-set can be detrimental to their play and mean that they are unable to respond when what they want to do is successfully disrupted by opponents.
So does that mean that we need to change the coach? the captain? both? Don't know. But I would say that we need to allow more flexibility within the team, and adopt a more attacking mentality, if we are to progress.

Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by SLC v2 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:18 pm

Duty281 wrote:I get the feeling that, over the course of this series and the last, England have surrendered the majority of their wickets, rather than Australia prising them out through skillful bowling.


This seems to be a common theme amongst many of the English supporters at the moment. Acknowledgement that your own team has not performed but very little acceptance that the Australian bowling had a lot to do with it.

Whilst this Australia bowling attack is not in the same league as our attack from 10 years it has been one of the most disciplined and genuinely hostile attacks Ive seen. They did not let up on England and whilst the series could be noted for the absence of genuine wicket taking deliveries (except for MJ) the reality is that most English wickets fell because of PRESSURE being constantly applied with very few spells of poor bowling.

I wont be surprised at all if these same English batsmen come out in their next series and are once again piling up runs. Im sure that it will be put down to them having had a rest and attitude changes etc... but I suspect it will be more to do with them finding bowling attacks that give them a chance to have a breather or offer the odd bowler they can really target.

Oh and Im no pie eyed optimist... Australia still have significant batting issues in their top order and will need more tinkering to get anywhere near challenging for the top Test position.

SLC v2

Posts : 6
Join date : 2013-12-23

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Pal Joey on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:19 pm

Maybe so, alfie.

Once the dust has settled after this series - yes, probably another two changes and a slight re-shuffle may be necessary to accommodate certain players. Senior ones need to step up again and take more responsibility. Players in progress (Root, Stokes, etc) should benefit from their initiation here... and will probably return home better for the experience. Both of them seem to be made of strong material and are sound players with some scope for improvement.

As Warne said during his Master Class today: when things are tough it's important to try and keep a smile (and stick to the plan or what's left of it). All part of the grand deception...  Smile
Pal Joey
Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 49795
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : Near a forest

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:34 pm

Just a couple of points on the potential replacements.

Finn ...love to see him back in the side . If he is in something like his best form. If he is bowling the rubbish we have seen from him lately , forget it. ODIs may tell us something. Or not. But given recent form I am not sure he is going to make a great improvement to the attack which we hope is going to work miracles tomorrow  Smile 

Ballance : who knows ? Probably not going to throw in two new , or newish , bats at once ...so it will be he , or Taylor , or Robson ...or perhaps someone else. I agree one new face is needed , as I said earlier (I think it was on here ?). Just not certain which face.

Borthwick ? Not that confident : long time since an English wrist spinner did anything (anything good , I mean ) but if Monty doesn't do something impressive tomorrow it might just be worth giving him a try , while we are operating with this five man attack.

Not to disrespect Sri Lanka , but they might , in English conditions , offer a slightly softer chance for some new players to find their feet. And even India , away from their own pitches shouldn't frighten the horses (though they have some serious batsmen. Hope there is a bit more moisture in the pitches than this year !)
So there is some chance of getting things back together in a few months. Who knows ...maybe a mix of old and new will be good enough to win the Ashes back in 2015 ?

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:39 pm

SLC v2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I get the feeling that, over the course of this series and the last, England have surrendered the majority of their wickets, rather than Australia prising them out through skillful bowling.


This seems to be a common theme amongst many of the English supporters at the moment. Acknowledgement that your own team has not performed but very little acceptance that the Australian bowling had a lot to do with it.

Whilst this Australia bowling attack is not in the same league as our attack from 10 years it has been one of the most disciplined and genuinely hostile attacks Ive seen. They did not let up on England and whilst the series could be noted for the absence of genuine wicket taking deliveries (except for MJ) the reality is that most English wickets fell because of PRESSURE being constantly applied with very few spells of poor bowling.

I wont be surprised at all if these same English batsmen come out in their next series and are once again piling up runs. Im sure that it will be put down to them having had a rest and attitude changes etc... but I suspect it will be more to do with them finding bowling attacks that give them a chance to have a breather or offer the odd bowler they can really target.

Oh and Im no pie eyed optimist... Australia still have significant batting issues in their top order and will need more tinkering to get anywhere near challenging for the top Test position.

See the wickets today? Root was run out (unforgivable), Bell played a poor shot, Stokes played a poor shot, Bairstow played a poor shot, Bresnan's shot was atrocious, Broad played a poor shot, and KP holed out.

Surrendered cheaply.

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Guest on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:40 pm

I hope Stokes gets a long run in the side. His bowling is hugely impressing and would get in a lot of sides as a bowler, and the fact that he is a good batsman is a huge bonus as well. However i would have him at 7 and the keeper-batsman at 6.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:49 pm

SLC v2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I get the feeling that, over the course of this series and the last, England have surrendered the majority of their wickets, rather than Australia prising them out through skillful bowling.


This seems to be a common theme amongst many of the English supporters at the moment. Acknowledgement that your own team has not performed but very little acceptance that the Australian bowling had a lot to do with it.

Whilst this Australia bowling attack is not in the same league as our attack from 10 years it has been one of the most disciplined and genuinely hostile attacks Ive seen. They did not let up on England and whilst the series could be noted for the absence of genuine wicket taking deliveries (except for MJ) the reality is that most English wickets fell because of PRESSURE being constantly applied with very few spells of poor bowling.

I wont be surprised at all if these same English batsmen come out in their next series and are once again piling up runs. Im sure that it will be put down to them having had a rest and attitude changes etc... but I suspect it will be more to do with them finding bowling attacks that give them a chance to have a breather or offer the odd bowler they can really target.

Oh and Im no pie eyed optimist... Australia still have significant batting issues in their top order and will need more tinkering to get anywhere near challenging for the top Test position.

Pretty fair summary. It doesn't excuse some very poor batting by England ; but I would agree this has been a far more consistent and disciplined attack than any I have seen from Australia since the All Star Cast disbanded. And it has got the results it deserved... There are other factors : unsettled top order , Trott departure , one or two players out of form...but the Australian bowlers can take a bow.

Credit where it is due.

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Guest on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:50 pm

I hope one day Trott comes back,i know he was out of sorts at Brisbane but clearly he had other things going on...but when he is in the side people feel more assured about the batting.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by SLC v2 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:See the wickets today? Root was run out (unforgivable), Bell played a poor shot, Stokes played a poor shot, Bairstow played a poor shot, Bresnan's shot was atrocious, Broad played a poor shot, and KP holed out.

Surrendered cheaply.

Oh Im not saying they are getting out to good balls. Im saying they are getting out because they cant find an easy way to turn the strike over and pick up some cheap boundaries. Carberry built up the pressure and Root's runout was because he was trying to find a way to get some momentum happening. Crazy run but it didn't happen for no reason.

Bell played a poor early shot and that can happen to any batsman but Stokes got out because he prefers to score quickly but he had been restricted to one boundary in 50 balls and couldn't resist the urge to break the shackles. That isn't "just" a poor shot..its the result of a long period of denying him anything and then having the right field in place when his patience wore out.

Poor shots by good batsmen happen more frequently when they are denied their natural scoring areas and tempo. The field placements of Clarke, backed by very good discipline by the bowlers has had more to do with this than some unexplainable loss of form by virtually all the English batsmen. And they deserve the kudos.

SLC v2

Posts : 6
Join date : 2013-12-23

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:59 pm

Linebreaker wrote:Maybe so, alfie.

Once the dust has settled after this series - yes, probably another two changes and a slight re-shuffle may be necessary to accommodate certain players. Senior ones need to step up again and take more responsibility. Players in progress (Root, Stokes, etc) should benefit from their initiation here... and will probably return home better for the experience. Both of them seem to be made of strong material and are sound players with some scope for improvement.

As Warne said during his Master Class today: when things are tough it's important to try and keep a smile (and stick to the plan or what's left of it). All part of the grand deception...  Smile

Indeed , lb. I might say that I think Australia are generally better at smiling and deception  Smile 

They have a great capacity to forget whatever happened a couple of months - or a couple of days - ago , and declare all is for the best. England seem to get down on themselves a bit more and almost convince themselves they are worse than they are ... I mean , only Australians could spin a 3-0 defeat into a "might easily have been 3-1 our way"  Smile 
For all they were competitive , that was nonsense ...but it doesn't matter. They half believed it themselves , and it gave them the confidence to come out swinging out here...

England haven't really believed they could come back in this series since day one in Adelaide. And it has shown.

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Guest on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 1:59 pm

Bairstow is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near test cricket!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:02 pm

SLC v2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:See the wickets today? Root was run out (unforgivable), Bell played a poor shot, Stokes played a poor shot, Bairstow played a poor shot, Bresnan's shot was atrocious, Broad played a poor shot, and KP holed out.

Surrendered cheaply.

Oh Im not saying they are getting out to good balls. Im saying they are getting out because they cant find an easy way to turn the strike over and pick up some cheap boundaries. Carberry built up the pressure and Root's runout was because he was trying to find a way to get some momentum happening. Crazy run but it didn't happen for no reason.

Bell played a poor early shot and that can happen to any batsman but Stokes got out because he prefers to score quickly but he had been restricted to one boundary in 50 balls and couldn't resist the urge to break the shackles. That isn't "just" a poor shot..its the result of a long period of denying him anything and then having the right field in place when his patience wore out.

Poor shots by good batsmen happen more frequently when they are denied their natural scoring areas and tempo. The field placements of Clarke, backed by very good discipline by the bowlers has had more to do with this than some unexplainable loss of form by virtually all the English batsmen. And they deserve the kudos.

All true. One might also note that the same could be said of Australia's first innings struggles with the bat in this match. If England's bowlers can be as disciplined tomorrow , we may yet see a tense finish.

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by alfie on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:06 pm

CF wrote:Bairstow is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near test cricket!

Sweeping and unhelpful , CF.

He has been at least as effective as Prior in this match. Not saying he will hold the gauntlets for long ; but I would hate to see you as a selector if you dismiss a player that easily.

alfie

Posts : 11366
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Melbourne.

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Gerry SA on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:07 pm

alfie wrote:
CF wrote:Bairstow is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near test cricket!

Sweeping and unhelpful , CF.

He has been at least as effective as Prior in this match.  Not saying he will hold the gauntlets for long ; but I would hate to see you as a selector if you dismiss a player that easily.
Bairstow is a dirty slogger.

Davies is a million miles better

Gerry SA

Posts : 2428
Join date : 2012-08-20
Location : RIP PHILLIP HUGHES 63 NOT OUT FOREVER

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:15 pm

Gerry SA wrote:
alfie wrote:
CF wrote:Bairstow is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near test cricket!

Sweeping and unhelpful , CF.

He has been at least as effective as Prior in this match.  Not saying he will hold the gauntlets for long ; but I would hate to see you as a selector if you dismiss a player that easily.
Bairstow is a dirty slogger.

Davies is a million miles better

Yeah.
Really don't know what Davies has done wrong. I know he had a bad patch a couple of seasons ago, but he averaged 45 in the CC last season. He's a far, far better 'keeper than the likes of Bairstow or Buttler as well.

Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hood83 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:23 pm

Do we all now accept that England's bowlers are far far better than our batsmen? Very happy for people to put me right on this as cricket is not my game, but I said for a while it felt like our batsmen could only perform when given the confidence boost of an opposition flattened by our bowlers. Is that fair?

I know no-one has covered themselves in glory this tour but our batsmen have been utterly abject, and I can't remember when they looked anything other than this. Feels like a collapse is always on the cards.

Anyway, should give credit to the winners, well done Oz for once again getting the best out of your abilities. Feels like England are showing the total lack of mental fortitude we used to be accustomed to, while Oz have rediscovered at least a little bit of that swagger.

Hood83

Posts : 2745
Join date : 2011-06-12

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:46 pm

Davies's time looks to have passed. Think someone, might have been Mike, reckoned that England didn't think he was vocal enough to keep wicket. Not sure this should be a major concern, but I'm also not convinced his batting is upto snuff at Test level either. Still only 27 though, so could get another chance.

Buttler is the man they like and his batting showed signs of getting up to International class during the ODIs against Aus last summer, as in he played some proper innings rather than just coming in a teeing off for a 50. If he has a big series in the ODIs post this Ashes series the he could be the guy who lines up with the gloves come the first Test against SL.


Last edited by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 2:55 pm

JDizzle wrote:Davies's time has passes. Think someone, might have been Mike, reckoned that England didn't think he was vocal enough to keep wicket. Not sure this should be a major concern, but I'm also not convinced his batting is upto snuff at Test level either. Still only 27 though, so could get anotehr chance.

Buttler is the man they like and his batting showed signs of getting up to International class during the ODIs against Aus last summer, as in he played some proper innings rather than just coming in a teeing off for a 50. If he has a big series in the ODIs post this Ashes series the he could be the guy who lines up with the gloves come the first Test against SL.


Don't see why his time has passed. Seems a bit silly to write off a player who is a better 'keeper than the alternatives because he's not vocal enough. I'd rather have a good 'keeper than one who shouts a lot. As for his batting, I don't know for sure but is it really worse than Bairstow's or Buttler's at FC level particularly?
Seems to me that he might just be another player who for whatever reason, like Compton or Taylor, just don't seem to fit in with the current England set-up.


Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:06 pm

He hasn't torn up trees to get himself back included though. He was another one who was terribly affected by Tom Maynard's death and by all accounts hasn't quite got back to where he was before that.

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:18 pm

JDizzle wrote:He hasn't torn up trees to get himself back included though. He was another one who was terribly affected by Tom Maynard's death and by all accounts hasn't quite got back to where he was before that.

Don't know that he's not back to where he was before. You'd have to ask some of the Surrey mafia about his performances this season Very Happy .
My point would be though, that if Prior is dropped, Davies has done as much as any of the other candidates and yet is not even being mentioned as a possible alternative. Bairstow is, obviously, in pole position to replace Prior at the moment, but he hasn't exactly pulled up trees (admittedly at test level), and what has the other player whose name I've heard mentioned, Buttler, done at FC level to put him ahead of Davies in the reckoning? Davies is a better 'keeper than either of those players as well IMO, vocal or not.

Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:32 pm

I'm sure Guildford or the Corporal will pop up with some comments once they sniff out a mention of Surrey!  Very Happy 

Bairstow clearly isn't the guy. His technique is horribly flawed and this is one of the rare occasions where I really can't see what the management were thinking when they dropped Prior for him. It just strikes me as a desperate move more out of hope than expectation that he could perform better.

Admittedly I've not seen much of Davies's keeping, but Buttler's keeping is more than competent. Certainly at limited overs level. He doesn't have much experience of keeping in the longer form of the game, which could be a test especially standing up top spinners for long spells, but he has the athleticism and basic ability to be a good keeper. He is a better keeper than JB IMO.

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by JDizzle on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:33 pm

And I'm going more of Buttler's ODI form, he began to look like a International batsman towards the end of last summer rather than just a hitter. Although, all that being said, I think Prior should get another chance this summer.

JDizzle

Posts : 4976
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:48 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:
alfie wrote:
CF wrote:Bairstow is awful and shouldn't be anywhere near test cricket!

Sweeping and unhelpful , CF.

He has been at least as effective as Prior in this match.  Not saying he will hold the gauntlets for long ; but I would hate to see you as a selector if you dismiss a player that easily.
Bairstow is a dirty slogger.

Davies is a million miles better

Yeah.
Really don't know what Davies has done wrong. I know he had a bad patch a couple of seasons ago, but he averaged 45 in the CC last season. He's a far, far better 'keeper than the likes of Bairstow or Buttler as well.

The keepers in the performance squad are foakes and buttler.

Now I we are calling bairstow a dirty slogger then buttler is a filthy one.
Buttler isn't in the lions squad ( either because he will be playing a lot of limited over games or more likely becuse noones going to kid themselves he will ever be a test player).
Foakes is child.

It's quite frightening that as things stand bairstow is the man, unless prior sorts his head out.

Maybe a new coach would reappraise Davies. But he was ( ironically) written off partly because e lacked the "Australian" mentality of being up for a fight and wasn't raising his game and aggression for international cricket. Apparently England were trying to assemble a mentality tough squad who could dish it out. Well that worked out didn't it.
But it doesn't change that he did fail when given a chance in limited overs internationals.

Anyway it looks like the next tour and lions series is huge for bairstow and England's wicket keeper future.
I'm not convinced by him as a batsman or a keeper and I think we all recognise how good prior was for a few years. After tht England don't really have a plan b up their sleeves.

I do agree Davies is the obvious one to go to if they get iver bairstow, but I can't see that happening straight away.


Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Posts : 10344
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : Englandshire

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:59 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
[
Maybe a new coach would reappraise Davies. But he was ( ironically) written off partly because e lacked the "Australian" mentality of being up for a fight and wasn't raising his game and aggression for international cricket. Apparently England were trying to assemble a mentality tough squad who could dish it out. Well that worked out didn't it.
But it doesn't change that he did fail when given a chance in limited overs internationals.



Did he really fail in ODIs?
Average over 30 with a s/r of 100+

Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by kingraf on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 4:26 pm

Time for the Kingraf Breakdown.

1) The effect of a back to back series
It's not been a highly discussed matter, but the fact that this has been a back-to-back series has had an effect on both teams. Is there any doubt that England would have been slaughtered, hung to dry and then burnt at the stake if Australia were allowed a crack at them immediately after Ashes 2005? The Aussies were able to adjust immediately, while the English probably weren't mentally right after the home Ashes, which signed off a period where they played in Three series and a Champions Trophy in seven months.

2) England's collapses.
Look, teams collapse. That's cricket. Just a week ago, South Africa went from 130/1 to 146/6. It happens, but worrying for England is the lack of players watching the collapse. It sounds like a strange idea, but during a coaching clinic a few weeks ago, we spoke about trying to get players batting to try get off strikes when wickets fall in clusters. The basic idea is that if wickets are to fall, then the 'in' player needs to make absolutely sure that he stays until the storm has calmed. England haven't done that, they all seem to be partaking in mass suicide, with no attempt to survive, instead they want to fight fire with fire, as if you're actually gonna hit your way out of a collapse.

3) KP -
Jacques Kallis used to have a nickname before South Africa found a middle order, "Mr. 90/6", because of how often he came in during times of disaster, and somehow saw us to a respectable score. When you've got a rookie at #3, and a misfiring lower order, it actually shocks me that a player really thinks he can play flamboyant cricket, because "that's the way I play". Kallis got a lot of criticism in those days for batting too slowly, but by god, did we have a respectable score. If KP isn't technically/mentally capable of batting to the situation, then he needs to bat at a different position, because four is too important a position for a player with a "Live By the Sword" ethos.

4) Lastly, Can someone please tell Michael Carberry to relax once he's in? Assertions that he's found his level are mystifying, as with the exception of Watson (who is chronicay incapable of passing 45) no cricketer's ultimate level is 30-odd. If you can get to 30-ish, you can sure as hell score tons. I'm surprised so many of you are saying a player with 29 first class tons' true level is 30-odd.
kingraf
kingraf
raf
raf

Posts : 16127
Join date : 2012-06-06
Age : 25
Location : To you I am there. To me I am here.... is it possible that I'm everywhere?

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by msp83 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 6:46 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Relax, this is going to be the best thing to happen to English cricket in the long-run.

Get battered now, and we at last draw a line under the last four years - and the tired team we have been since the UAE.

Cook should stay as captain - this experience will make him all the stronger - but I do really think it's time for Flower to go. Then England can start again with a renewed impetus.

(1) You will never, ever convince me that this Australian team is better than this English team because, quite frankly, they're not. England were 5/10 in the summer, but they've been 2/10 in this series. Tired and pathetic. More a case of England being bad than Australia being good, although Australia have been plenty of the latter at times.

5-0? Bring it on. It could just be the perfect tonic for England in the long-run - similar to when Australia humilated England in the rugby once, and a few years later, England were world champions.

(2) Come on Australia - humiliate us. England needs it.

1. You clearly haven't watched a single minute of this series then, if that is your honest opinion.

2. If you really believe (1) why then do you want Australia to humiliate England, forcing a clear-out?


As I've said countless times before, England have plenty of talented and technically good cricketers. The current England side is probably a fair reflection of the best we have. Unfortunately, where we cannot match the truly great teams is in the mental / psychological aspect of the game. Our players just don't have then mental strength to cope with pressure...especially against a team like Australia who are known for particularly hostile sledging and other less-than-gentlemanly tactics.

If we don't have conditions that help our players, we cannot adapt our style of play or tactics and crumble all too easily when the opposition begins to dominate. Perfect example of this is KP who has openly stated he refuses to change his style of play, no matter how many times he gets out with stupid shots. The sooner England are rid of him too, the better - the man is just a liability.

In a nutshell, we don't have the bottle to compete with the best. Nothing could demonstrate this more clearly than this latest debacle. For the first time this series, England got themselves a 1st innings lead, but STILL contrived to throw the match away in an utterly abysmal 2nd innings display. Absolutely pathetic.
Drop Kevin Pietersen, England will be back to number one and hold on for the next 50 years and win all the Ashes series up to 2134.!!!.! What a creative solution to all their problems!!. Sack Flower and Cook and dismantle the ECB for not being able to see this very obvious fact!.

msp83

Posts : 13959
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 7:10 pm

I agree changes have to be made in the coming months. Not wholesale but in certain positions.

Carberry is a stop-gap at 33 and not one for the future and as I recall it Compton was axed for slow scoring and too many starts with few big scores. Well Carberry is even worse in those areas. He has battled manfully in this series but the big scores have not materialised.

The No.3 slot needs to be held by a more free-scoring player than Root is at present. Get Bell in at three.

The wicket-keeper spot is up for grabs and Bairstow kept quite well I thought. Sure he has not weighed in with big scores but neither has Prior of late and remember Prior is now 33. Maybe Bairstow isn't the man for the job long-term but it is now time to look at younger options.

Bresnan has had his chance. I feel third seamer slot should go to Finn starting in Sydney. And look at other options as well in the coming months.

Spinner role now that Swann has gone should be Month's for now but again look at other options in the coming months.
CaledonianCraig
CaledonianCraig

Posts : 18918
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 51
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 7:35 pm

Personally, given the fact that England are likely to field a 5 man attack for a while (I think Stokes will be given a run in the side), I think the summer would be the ideal time to look at ways to add a little more variety to the attack (and blood a new bowler or two). Play a leg-spinner, or even two spinners. Look at a left-arm seamer.
still think, though, that it's the batting where the major problems lie, so blooding two or three youngsters during the summer should be the priority (possibly even bring Ballance in for the last Ashes test), with one of them being an opener.

Hoggy_Bear

Posts : 2201
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 53
Location : The Fields of Athenry

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Duty281 on Sat 28 Dec 2013, 7:40 pm

England's batting may be as pathetic as a drunk in the street, but our bowling can be magical. So put the bigger picture to one side, the 3-0 and the 5-0, forget it for now.

10 wickets, and England have a famous win at the MCG. One that we'll be able to drag the DVDs out of for many years to come.

Remember how Anderson took the Aussies on single-handed at Trent Bridge?
Remember how Broad did likewise in Durham?
Remember how Panesar had them on the run seven years ago, and remained unbowed in Cardiff?
Remember how Bresnan took the winning wicket here last time?

Remember.

Think how glorious tomorrow Sunday's roast will be after a gallant English win. Think how good the feeling of victory will be after all these horror days. Think about how England can hold their heads up with some pride after a masterful comeback.

Think it. Picture it. Dream it. Believe it.

We're not dead yet.

Come on England!

Duty281

Posts : 20798
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 24
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

4th Ashes Test - Melbourne - Page 6 Empty Re: 4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 10 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum