4th Ashes Test - Melbourne

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 25 Dec 2013, 7:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Boxing Day test match is upon us people!

There are rumoured to be a few changes to the England side, one of course enforced with the retirement on Graeme Swann. There hasn't been too much about who will replace him, Panesar would be the obvious choice. The other all but confirmed move will be Jonny Bairstow taking Prior's place.


Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, JE Root, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SCJ Broad, TT Bresnan, JM Anderson, MS Panesar


With the series already over, lets hope we just get to see some good cricket. From an English point of view, lets not lose 5-0!!

Now back to the Christmas pudding for me...
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Post by msp83 on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 6:37 pm

Best wishes , Trebs.

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Post by kingraf on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 6:49 pm

Been a little too positive without your domsday scenarios to counter balance Doody thinking 173/9 is a dominant positon, Trebs. All the best Trebell, regarding the missus and let's hope the new year brings with it better fortunes, mate. Well, for you, England are going through the wire
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Post by trebellbobaggins on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 7:11 pm

Thanks Kingr. I couldn't care less what happens to England in truth mate, they're just a sports team.

The health of my family matters, the performances or lack thereof of a few well paid sportsmen does not.


Thanks msp too. Much appreciated.


Last edited by trebellbobaggins on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 7:56 pm

msp83 wrote:
alfie wrote:India have been "whitewashed" twice in the last three years...and they are back to number two in the lists already ! Couple of new batsmen , much the same bowlers...

It (probably) isn't as bad as you think.
Not quite alfie.
Shikhar Dhawan, Murali Vijay, Cheteshwar Pujara, Rohit Sharma, Ajinkya Rahane, Ravindra Jadeja and Mohammed Shami, players involved in the ongoing South African series where India have surpassed expectations so far were not involved in any of those 8 tests. Virat Kohli and Ravichandran Ashwin played only the Australia series. And in the rest of the squad that is playing, Bhuvneshwar Kumar wasn't even in the selectors' thoughts at the time of the twin whitewashes, and Ambati Rayudu still was a naughty little troublemaker who needed to learn his lessons at the domestic level before being even considered for international responsibilities.
Duncan Flecher and Mahendra Singh Dhoni stayed on, but otherwise, a lot have changed really.


So the answer is keep cook as captain, get fletcher back, replace the enture team and whichever spinner all rounder they think is best pick the other one.
You'll then have a side capable of escaping with a draw in SA thanks to the weather.

The revolution starts here.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 10:06 pm

kingraf wrote:I quite liked LB's post.... the modesty has become harder to replicate as the full extent of England's ineptitude has become clearer, think Doody's comment finally pushed LB over the edge and he had to set it straight... Good on you LB, must have been difficult to keep telling the English posters the have a good team, and you got lucky while they continuously collapsed like a deck of Chinese cards

Thanks Raf.
Yes, I was being slightly mischievous as alfie has noted. Hence the whistling emoticon.

I'd actually agree with Duty's summation; Australia have been about a 7/10 (or 7.5) and England about a 2/10 in the series thus far.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 29 Dec 2013, 10:25 pm

I personally don't think sacking Flower is the answer.

However Gooch has to go. Batting has been shocking ever since he came in
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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:10 am

msp83 wrote:
alfie wrote:India have been "whitewashed" twice in the last three years...and the

y are back to number two in the lists already ! Couple of new batsmen , much the same bowlers...

It (probably) isn't as bad as you think.
Not quite alfie.
Shikhar Dhawan, Murali Vijay, Cheteshwar Pujara, Rohit Sharma, Ajinkya Rahane, Ravindra Jadeja and Mohammed Shami, players involved in the ongoing South African series where India have surpassed expectations so far were not involved in any of those 8 tests. Virat Kohli and Ravichandran Ashwin played only the Australia series. And in the rest of the squad that is playing, Bhuvneshwar Kumar wasn't even in the selectors' thoughts at the time of the twin whitewashes, and Ambati Rayudu still was a naughty little troublemaker who needed to learn his lessons at the domestic level before being even considered for international responsibilities.
Duncan Flecher and Mahendra Singh Dhoni stayed on, but otherwise, a lot have changed really.

True , msp , I did oversimplify...sorry. I just can't type as fast as some of you fellows so I sometimes try to keep it brief  Smile 

The Indian batting looks a lot different now ; though the changes weren't all made at once. My reference to a couple of new bats was down to my giving most of the credit to Pujara and Dhawan ...along with Kohli , who of course was already in. For all the additions to the bowling (Bhuvi looks promising , as does M Shami ) most of the heavy lifting has been down to the older ones though , hasn't it ? Zaheer still a leader , the oft-despised Ishant... And Ashwin , Ojha ...even old Bhaji , have done service as spinners ; though I am pleased to see Jadeja getting a chance.
Yes more changes than I acknowledged...but I actually think they have been made at about the right rate , even if many would have preferred more urgent action a year or so ago...I think the team has transitioned rather well ...and is probably still doing so.

Will be interesting to see how they perform in England. Will be hoping for a dry summer , I should think ? Going to be strange to see an Indian team without Dravid or Tendulkar touring England ! A whole generation of English fans have never seen such a thing...

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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:20 am

Olly wrote:I personally don't think sacking Flower is the answer.

However Gooch has to go. Batting has been shocking ever since he came in

Doubt they will sack Flower. But most people think he will resign , and I am coming round to that view too - though in truth we are all just guessing !

Suspect a new gaffer will mean a new batting coach too , though I am not sure who. Would like to see Saker stay on with the bowlers though. Not sure we can blame him for much...in fact the bowlers have not really been that bad , considering the alien conditions , poor luck with the toss , and some less than brilliant fielding. Only in Adelaide did Australia get an above par first innings ; and both Brisbane and Melbourne were rather on the low side...
Not totally shocked that they have tended to wilt in the second innings , after the batting has undone all their good work.

Do you have a preferred candidate to replace Gooch , Olly ?

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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:35 am

Linebreaker wrote:
kingraf wrote:I quite liked LB's post.... the modesty has become harder to replicate as the full extent of England's ineptitude has become clearer, think Doody's comment finally pushed LB over the edge and he had to set it straight... Good on you LB, must have been difficult to keep telling the English posters the have a good team, and you got lucky while they continuously collapsed like a deck of Chinese cards

Thanks Raf.
Yes, I was being slightly mischievous as alfie has noted. Hence the whistling emoticon.

I'd actually agree with Duty's summation; Australia have been about a 7/10 (or 7.5) and England about a 2/10 in the series thus far.

I would be more generous than that , lb. I don't think this Australian team is a world beater : more that they have got on top initially through a couple of big performances , and really come together as a team , who now have the confidence to fight out of any rough spots ...they trust each other ; and even players who might not unfairly be categorized as "good , ordinary , Test players" - no slur intended - like Rogers and perhaps Lyon , are turning in some remarkable efforts.

Now this may not last : SA should provide a sterner test , and flaws which are not being exploited at the moment by a demoralized opponent may become apparent . But if you are allocating ratings , surely it should be on what they are doing , not on what you perceive them to be overall ?

At least 8.5 , I reckon...first innings batting is really the only area you can mark them down.

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 3:06 am

I was expecting you to disagree, alfie.

It's OK... I am more difficult to please obviously and have erred on the side of caution - for the 2nd time in a month.

I was referring, of course, to Duty's overall rankings to date. We could go through each player in more detail (we missed the Perth ratings I noticed) but I'm feeling too festive at the moment and getting ready for some fireworks tomorrow night. (I'm not usually into NYE but have accepted an invitation to view them from Kirribilli.... for the umpteenth time.)

So you are therefore suggesting a SA walkover in February?
Or simply trying to hose me down a bit?  Laugh 
Fair enough...
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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 3:36 am

Really not sure about the SA series. They have been very solid for a while now , but even when Australia have a less than stellar lineup they have tended to play quite well against them (except in the 1970's ...that got ugly !)
And perversely , SA often seem more vulnerable at home than when they tour. Not sure why. They will miss Kallis.

Can Australia win it ? I think they would need a bit of luck to go their way , to be honest. The batting still looks a bit frail to me : Watson can look fantastic smashing the bowlers around in a second innings , when most of the pressure is off...but he comes up short too often for me in the tough bits. Slightly true of Warner too , though he has quite impressed me over the last month...
Clarke will still be key. Smith has done well at times but I am not sure how well he will do against Steyn and co , especially if there's a bit in the pitches for the bowlers. Can Haddin continue his amazing form ?
Mitch will arrive pretty pumped , and will be dangerous . But he will want the good support he has enjoyed this last few weeks to continue , soone hopes Harris and Siddle are not too knackered after their recent efforts. Both are showing some signs of tiredness , I fancy. Will be interesting to see who else makes the plane...

Enjoy the view from Kirribilli  Smile  My son will be insanely jealous ...he harbours a desire to go to Sydney for NYE mainly for the fireworks. Can take 'em or leave 'em myself...a good glass or two of single malt is more my priority.

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Post by SLC v2 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 3:36 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Ah, the old English pass time of sacrificially tearing apart their heroes in order to denude the opposition of glory in victory.

The sad old argument that this Australian team has not beaten so convincingly the England side hailed as heroes a few short months ago, but that the same beaten Australia have merely encountered a shaddow of the previous side, which is still vastly superior.

The irony is that the British media is so rehearsed in this farce, that fear of failure and feeling their wrath in this charade actually aids the teams demise. Once you get England under pressure, they just keep getting worse.


Nicely put.

It bemuses me how many English supporters steadfastly stick to the "it's not you, it's me" line, begrudgingly admitting the Australians have been ok but really it's all about how bad England are. Does it not seem obvious that one does not occur without the other? Its cricketing yin and yang!

England's batsmen have been pressured, outthought and beaten by disciplined bowling and run choking fields, forcing them into poor and frustrated dismissals. England's bowlers have been more successful but have been unable to contain all 11 batsmen and Australia have regularly found someone who will put their hand up to play with the necessary aggression and determination.

I will happily concede that England have batted, fielded and bowled uncharacteristically poorly this series. But will the opposition supporters concede that the Australian bowling attack has been outstanding and the batting has been spasmodically very good? Or are we entitled to no "glory in victory"?


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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 4:02 am

SLC v2 wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Ah, the old English pass time of sacrificially tearing apart their heroes in order to denude the opposition of glory in victory.

The sad old argument that this Australian team has not beaten so convincingly the England side hailed as heroes a few short months ago, but that the same beaten Australia have merely encountered a shaddow of the previous side, which is still vastly superior.

The irony is that the British media is so rehearsed in this farce, that fear of failure and feeling their wrath in this charade actually aids the teams demise. Once you get England under pressure, they just keep getting worse.


Nicely put.

It bemuses me how many English supporters steadfastly stick to the "it's not you, it's me" line, begrudgingly admitting the Australians have been ok but really it's all about how bad England are. Does it not seem obvious that one does not occur without the other? Its cricketing yin and yang!

England's batsmen have been pressured, outthought and beaten by disciplined bowling and run choking fields, forcing them into poor and frustrated dismissals. England's bowlers have been more successful but have been unable to contain all 11 batsmen and Australia have regularly found someone who will put their hand up to play with the necessary aggression and determination.

I will happily concede that England have batted, fielded and bowled uncharacteristically poorly this series. But will the opposition supporters concede that the Australian bowling attack has been outstanding and the batting has been spasmodically very good? Or are we entitled to no "glory in victory"?


Well I for one am giving you plenty of credit , mate. What you say is perfectly true.

But I must point out that this sort of stuff is scarcely limited to Engish supporters. Few months back England won 3-0 at home and most of the Aussie press was banging on about them being basically just lucky...And a very ordinary team...

I think everyone does it a bit. Some of it is unconscious ...fans are focused on their own players ,so they tend to see things from their point of view. And when people are unhappy at their players failings , they are less willing to be generous with their praise to their conquerers ...

Lap up your glory mate , you've earned it  clap 

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 4:21 am

"Most of the Aussie press"?

I don't recall that really happening... there was certainly more of the opposite and the local press was getting stuck into the Aussie team.

Sources/link please?  Whistle (don't bother... I'm just kidding you!)
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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 4:46 am

Linebreaker wrote:"Most of the Aussie press"?

I don't recall that really happening... there was certainly more of the opposite and the local press was getting stuck into the Aussie team.

Sources/link please?  Whistle (don't bother... I'm just kidding you!)

Come on lb ...I'm trying to be serious now ...Honestly...

If there was any praise for England in August it was fairly grudging. Much more focus on things like drs and Broad not walking ... Not sure if the phrase " could have easily been 4-1 to Australia " was actually written , but some comments sort of hinted that way...

My point being most losing side's fans tend to look at other factors than opponent's merits , unless that opponent is manifestly excellent.

Recall England fans and media being quite in awe of The Warne McGrath mob...and rightly so. And Australians were pretty generous in praise of England three years ago.

Both teams have had their problems of late , so I suspect there will be less mutual respect shown unless and until one or other strings a few good results together. Doesn't worry me - just human nature.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:08 am

Bairstow isn't just being judge on his keeping, he hasn't warne his spot as a batsman either. He probably did only get on this tour with the idea that he was a long term project to potentially be the new Matt prior ( can bat, can't keep ... But working on it).
The sad thing is he's done nothing to show he can average 40 is with the bat at test level and this hasn't be his first opportunity.

He is in the lions squad still though, and flower has continued to back him for the future. It's been recognised that this was him being thrown in at the deep end.

But when it comes down to it he does need to score runs I he wants a place as a batsman. As a keeper batsman he also needs to do that as well as improving his keeping.
One things for sure, he's not ready to become a fixture in the side yet.

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:33 am

alfie wrote:
SLC v2 wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Ah, the old English pass time of sacrificially tearing apart their heroes in order to denude the opposition of glory in victory.

The sad old argument that this Australian team has not beaten so convincingly the England side hailed as heroes a few short months ago, but that the same beaten Australia have merely encountered a shaddow of the previous side, which is still vastly superior.

The irony is that the British media is so rehearsed in this farce, that fear of failure and feeling their wrath in this charade actually aids the teams demise. Once you get England under pressure, they just keep getting worse.


Nicely put.

It bemuses me how many English supporters steadfastly stick to the "it's not you, it's me" line, begrudgingly admitting the Australians have been ok but really it's all about how bad England are. Does it not seem obvious that one does not occur without the other? Its cricketing yin and yang!

England's batsmen have been pressured, outthought and beaten by disciplined bowling and run choking fields, forcing them into poor and frustrated dismissals. England's bowlers have been more successful but have been unable to contain all 11 batsmen and Australia have regularly found someone who will put their hand up to play with the necessary aggression and determination.

I will happily concede that England have batted, fielded and bowled uncharacteristically poorly this series. But will the opposition supporters concede that the Australian bowling attack has been outstanding and the batting has been spasmodically very good? Or are we entitled to no "glory in victory"?


Well I for one am giving you plenty of credit , mate. What you say is perfectly true.

But I must point out that this sort of stuff is scarcely limited to Engish supporters.  Few months back England won 3-0 at home and most of the Aussie press was banging on about them being basically just lucky...And a very ordinary team...

I think everyone does it a bit.  Some of it is unconscious ...fans are focused on their own players ,so they tend to see things from their point of view.  And when people are unhappy at their players failings , they are less willing to be generous with their praise to their conquerers ...

Lap up your glory mate , you've earned it  clap 

The truth is though that England were lucky in the 3-0 home win. Boycott reckons the same thing in his column, believing that a 2-2 draw was probably reflective of where the teams were at. He concedes Australia were robbed of victory once by poor umpiring (Broad decision) and once by erratic weather and England's unsporting go-slow tactics which should have been punished. He feels that the luck England had in the home series hid the weaknesses that have been revealed now.

But no matter what the problems with England may be, the fact is that Australia have been ruthless in their execution. It's the pressure that Australia have created that has cracked England. England did not merely capitulate spontaneously. Australia found the mental edge and have not just decimated England on the field, but destroyed the careers of Trott, Swan, Prior, ended Cook's captaincy (pending), finished off Flower (pending) and media talk is how James Anderson "needs a break from cricket" this morning.

Really only Stuart Broad has been up for the challenge, and Australia have kept him in a box all series.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 9:38 am

Will be interesting to see Johnson in SA. We use the Kookaburra as well, and the climate is very similar, not to mention the fact that the tour of South Africa is where Johnson announced himself to the world, breaking stumps, breaking fingers, and hospitalizing batsmen. But the First test is in East London, which while a rather lively, is pretty slow and doesn't reward mindless pace. Newlands is in a similar vein, a place with plenty grass, but not quite pace.
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Post by Gerry SA on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 12:04 pm

kingraf wrote:Will be interesting to see Johnson in SA. We use the Kookaburra as well, and the climate is very similar, not to mention the fact that the tour of South Africa is where Johnson announced himself to the world, breaking stumps, breaking fingers, and hospitalizing batsmen. But the First test is in East London, which while a rather lively, is pretty slow and doesn't reward mindless pace. Newlands is in a similar vein, a place with plenty grass, but not quite pace.
Tbh KR, Johnson's got more skills now than just blinding speed. 

He's a lot more accurate. Obviously pace helps. He's doesn't seem to offer the free boundary balls anymore. 

Will be exciting Steyn vs Johnson Yahoo

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 12:32 pm

alfie wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:
kingraf wrote:I quite liked LB's post.... the modesty has become harder to replicate as the full extent of England's ineptitude has become clearer, think Doody's comment finally pushed LB over the edge and he had to set it straight... Good on you LB, must have been difficult to keep telling the English posters the have a good team, and you got lucky while they continuously collapsed like a deck of Chinese cards

Thanks Raf.
Yes, I was being slightly mischievous as alfie has noted. Hence the whistling emoticon.

I'd actually agree with Duty's summation; Australia have been about a 7/10 (or 7.5) and England about a 2/10 in the series thus far.

I would be more generous than that , lb.   I don't think this Australian team is a world beater : more that they have got on top initially through a couple of big performances , and really come together as a team , who now have the confidence to fight out of any rough spots ...they trust each other ; and even players who might not unfairly be categorized as "good , ordinary , Test players" - no slur intended - like Rogers and perhaps Lyon , are turning in some remarkable efforts.

Now this may not last : SA should provide a sterner test , and flaws which are not being exploited at the moment by a demoralized opponent may become apparent .  But if you are allocating ratings , surely it should be on what they are doing , not on what you perceive them to be overall ?

At least 8.5  , I reckon...first innings batting is really the only area you can mark them down.

An astute post from Raf. Australia generally have not been given sufficience praise for their dominance and England's capitulation in this series.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:13 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:
kingraf wrote:I quite liked LB's post.... the modesty has become harder to replicate as the full extent of England's ineptitude has become clearer, think Doody's comment finally pushed LB over the edge and he had to set it straight... Good on you LB, must have been difficult to keep telling the English posters the have a good team, and you got lucky while they continuously collapsed like a deck of Chinese cards

Thanks Raf.
Yes, I was being slightly mischievous as alfie has noted. Hence the whistling emoticon.

I'd actually agree with Duty's summation; Australia have been about a 7/10 (or 7.5) and England about a 2/10 in the series thus far.

I would be more generous than that , lb.   I don't think this Australian team is a world beater : more that they have got on top initially through a couple of big performances , and really come together as a team , who now have the confidence to fight out of any rough spots ...they trust each other ; and even players who might not unfairly be categorized as "good , ordinary , Test players" - no slur intended - like Rogers and perhaps Lyon , are turning in some remarkable efforts.

Now this may not last : SA should provide a sterner test , and flaws which are not being exploited at the moment by a demoralized opponent may become apparent .  But if you are allocating ratings , surely it should be on what they are doing , not on what you perceive them to be overall ?

At least 8.5  , I reckon...first innings batting is really the only area you can mark them down.

An astute post from Raf. Australia generally have not been given sufficience praise for their dominance and England's capitulation in this series.


Indias batsmen get parise when folding like a pancake and getting utterly humped in SA, and chucking away good positions in two tests.
That shows the difference in perception between this Australian side and SA. Noone expected India to beat SA, on paper England should have been competitive in this series at least. As it is Australia have dragged the best out of some fairly mediocre test cricketers (say what you like but the side only had one player who averaged over 40 at with the bat at the start of the series, and Johnson was only selected because of injuries to 3 fast bowlers) and England have dragged the worst out of some formerly very good cricketers ...Swann used to be the number one spinner, Anderson used to be number 2 seamer, Cook KP Bell and Trott have all been in the top 10 batsmen in their careers and Prior was the best batting keeper only a year or so ago. Bresnan and Tremlett were capable of taking wickets last time they were here against better batsmen.
This series was won and lost in the head not just through cricketing ability.
The praise goes to Australia for creating an environment where their players could thrive and produce their best. This was not the same Johnson that England faced last time they were here. David Warner appears to have stayed sober. Chris Rogers has actually scored a century. Steve Smith has remained quiet enough not to get noticed as a total passenger. Meanwhile Englands superstars have looked stressed out and scared, playing as if their only motivation is being scared of losing.
I wonder how much Swann was driven out by the negative attitude in the dressing room. The talk has all been of " must work harder" and intensely analysing every failing, rather than the aussie attitude which seems to have been " lets go and play some cricket". England seem to have created a mental hole for themselves by over thinking and avoiding worrying. Its not like they havent had plans ( at some times imaginative, bowling Root at left handers etc) but they havent executed them. The odd time more than one player hads produced somewhere near their best Australia have looked troubled, but those performances have been far too infrequent and not sustained.

This also shows why people got so excited by the win here last time. Its rare and its hard. The ones who didnt come last time england got 5-0'ed will know that now.

Hats off to Australia for bringing their A game, they havent done that the last couple of times England have faced them.

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:35 pm

"Australia have dragged the best out of some fairly mediocre test cricketers ... and England have dragged the worst out of some formerly very good cricketers "

There it is in a nut shell. The English attitude. The implication is that England are still the better team and have merely decided that winning this time is not important to them.

We see the exact same arrogance in other sports involving the Poms. Anyone remember Clive Woodward going home from NZ in 2004 having failed to score a try and having been hammered by 30 points in every test, still claiming he thought England were the better team and just a little mentally tired after playing in the RWC nearly 12 months earlier?

Sounds like the same refrain from the Poms here. Looks like they need to lose 5-0 to wake them up.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:49 pm

Actually thats not what I said at all Gloria but its good to see you haunting the cricket fora now the rugby has gone quiet.

This isnt excuse making, quite the opposite. England should be capable of putting together a side capable of beating these guys. The side they put together should have been capable.

That they didnt is whats so abject.

A bit like when the All Blacks lost to England. (Yes it happens, sometimes the better team loses).

Noone is going to convince me that a side with Rogers, and unhappy and injured Watson, Smith, an injured Clarke and George Bailey is ever going to be genuinely good. Thats not to say they didnt out play england, but it does highlight just how below par Englands performance has been.

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:52 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Actually thats not what I said at all Gloria but its good to see you haunting the cricket fora now the rugby has gone quiet.

This isnt excuse making, quite the opposite. England should be capable of putting together a side capable of beating these guys. The side they put together should have been capable.

That they didnt is whats so abject.

A bit like when the All Blacks lost to England. (Yes it happens, sometimes the better team loses).

Noone is going to convince me that a side with Rogers, and unhappy and injured Watson, Smith, an injured Clarke and George Bailey is ever going to be genuinely good. Thats not to say they didnt out play england, but it does highlight just how below par Englands performance has been.

Yeah mate, the AB's lost to England. Once. In ten years. As usual.

This ashes series, and the excuse making by the Poms, however would be akin to NZ playing a five match series in England, having lost the first four tests by 50 points and then trying to claim they just had a few off days.

The evidence is staringly mind numbingly obvious. The Australia team is just better than the England team this time around. Stop with the mumbo jumbo denial and just admit it.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:53 pm

alfie wrote:
Olly wrote:I personally don't think sacking Flower is the answer.

However Gooch has to go. Batting has been shocking ever since he came in

Doubt they will sack Flower.  But most people think he will resign , and I am coming round to that view too - though in truth we are all just guessing !

Suspect a new gaffer will mean a new batting coach too , though I am not sure who.  Would like to see Saker stay on with the bowlers though.  Not sure we can blame him for much...in fact the bowlers have not really been that bad , considering the alien conditions , poor luck with the toss , and some less than brilliant fielding. Only in Adelaide did Australia get an above par first innings ; and both Brisbane and Melbourne were rather on the low side...
Not totally shocked that they have tended to wilt in the second innings , after the batting has undone all their good work.

Do you have a preferred candidate to replace Gooch , Olly ?

Can't say I'd have the knowledge of who could step up Alfie.

But Gooch seems to be getting off the criticism when he's the one who handles the batsmen. Who has actually improved under him? Cook seems to have got worse, Root's front foot issues still persist, Bairstow after a year still hasn't changed his technique to get round his shortcomings, Prior's fallen off a cliff. And the tail can't bat no more.

Its his job to sort out the batsmen. Not doing and hasn't been for a very long time
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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 1:58 pm

Not disagreeing with that , Olly. We can't of course know what Gooch is doing with the batsmen ; but fair to say it doesn't seem to be working.
Not sure he is escaping criticism though ...I think replacing him is something being discussed quite a lot . Whether Flower stays or not.

But I am interested to see who will replace him.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:00 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Actually thats not what I said at all Gloria but its good to see you haunting the cricket fora now the rugby has gone quiet.

This isnt excuse making, quite the opposite. England should be capable of putting together a side capable of beating these guys. The side they put together should have been capable.

That they didnt is whats so abject.

A bit like when the All Blacks lost to England. (Yes it happens, sometimes the better team loses).

Noone is going to convince me that a side with Rogers, and unhappy and injured Watson, Smith, an injured Clarke and George Bailey is ever going to be genuinely good. Thats not to say they didnt out play england, but it does highlight just how below par Englands performance has been.

Yeah mate, the AB's lost to England. Once. In ten years. As usual.  

This ashes series, and the excuse making by the Poms, however would be akin to NZ playing a five match series in England, having lost the first four tests by 50 points and then trying to claim they just had a few off days.

The evidence is staringly mind numbingly obvious.  The Australia team is just better than the England team this time around. Stop with the mumbo jumbo denial and just admit it.

Don't think anyone has not admitted that the Aussie team was better than England's this time round.
The question is why?

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:01 pm

That's exactly what Seabiscuit over there is saying.

He claims England are a good team. Australia are not a good team. Australia have won 4 crushing victories due to the better England team just not having played very well.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:07 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:That's exactly what Seabiscuit over there is saying.

He claims England are a good team. Australia are not a good team. Australia have won 4 crushing victories due to the better England team just not having played very well.

But he isn't saying that Australia haven't been better. He's simply pointing out that, ON PAPER, England should have been capable of winning. The question therefore remains. Why were Australia so superior?
That isn't saying that Australia weren't superior it is simply seeking to explain their superiority.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:12 pm

let's face facts - England were pathetic. They've been pathetic for a while now.They should have lost to New Zealand (the same NZ who were bundled out for 45 by SA a month earlier) they would have lost 3-0 to us had KP not out together that 149. They lost 3-0 to Pakistan. for the wages these boys receive, they've been god-awful for 18 months now.
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:13 pm

Because they're the better team? The bowl better, field better and bat better. Hence they end up with more runs. Pretty simple stuff really, isn't it?

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:21 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Because they're the better team? The bowl better, field better and bat better. Hence they end up with more runs.  Pretty simple stuff really, isn't it?

Yep, it's pretty simple when you put it like that.
But if everyone were just to leave it at "We lost because the other team were better" without seeking to understand WHY the other team were better, then teams wouldn't progress and sports journalists and fans would have much less to talk about.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:30 pm

alfie wrote:Not disagreeing with that , Olly.  We can't of course know what Gooch is doing with the batsmen ; but fair to say it doesn't seem to be working.
Not sure he is escaping criticism though ...I think replacing him is something being discussed quite a lot .  Whether Flower stays or not.

But I am interested to see who will replace him.

I'm sure KP has his own batting coach, maybe him? There's gotta be someone out there!
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Post by alfie on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:37 pm

kingraf wrote:let's face facts - England were pathetic. They've been pathetic for a while nowThey should have lost to New Zealand (the same NZ who were bundled out for 45 by SA a month earlier) they would have lost 3-0 to us had KP not out together that 149. They lost 3-0 to Pakistan. for the wages these boys receive, they've been god-awful for 18 months now.

Bit of an exaggeration there , kingraf . They could have lost to NZ - but they didn't . Then beat them at home.
Also a 2-1 win in India in there , along with a 3-0 at home to Australia just a few months ago.

Been awful this trip , no question. But I do give the Auusies a bit of credit for helping to cause that...

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:45 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Because they're the better team? The bowl better, field better and bat better. Hence they end up with more runs.  Pretty simple stuff really, isn't it?

So remind me again how the All Blacks lost various games?

kingraf wrote:let's face facts - England were pathetic. They've been pathetic for a while now.They should have lost to New Zealand (the same NZ who were bundled out for 45 by SA a month earlier) they would have lost 3-0 to us had KP not out together that 149. They lost 3-0 to Pakistan. for the wages these boys receive, they've been god-awful for 18 months now.

So whats Indias excuse? Meanwhile everyones saying how great they are and talking up various players on the grounds they chucked away a gift horse in the first test and folded like a panckae to lose the second one despite weather being on their side. The same India who contrived to be whitewashed by pretty much exactly the same England line up who got humped here and managed to lose to them at home as well. This god awful England side.

This is cricket, this is just what happens. SA are the nearest thing to a dominant force in test cricket at the minuet but England and India have both had their brief turns their since Australia jumped the shark.

What we have consistently seen from sides is periods of high performance punctuated by tours going horribly wrong. Same for Pakistan who for a while were really turning things around and reestablishing themselves as a major force. They couldnt sustain that either.

Psychology and rest play a huge part in cricket, even more now in the days of intense media scrutiny and packed calenders.
Hence why I say Australia should be congratulated for fostering an environment where they can get the best out of their players and criticize England for failing to do so. The roles were reversed on the last tour when England were able to get county trundlers like Bresnan and Tremlett to worry great batsmen like Clarke (without back problems), Ponting and Hussey (the latter two would walk into the current aussie side even out of form, or at least if Ponting hadnt upset Clarke so much).

Yes Australia have been better in this series, the point is its humiliating they were and we have to look beyond cricketing skills for why they were able to execute better than they normally do and England executed less well than they have previously been capable of.

I expect it was food poisoning or Wayne Barnes.

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:45 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2013/dec/27/piers-morgan-brett-lee-over-cricket

Maybe it's harder than it looks.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:46 pm

Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Not disagreeing with that , Olly.  We can't of course know what Gooch is doing with the batsmen ; but fair to say it doesn't seem to be working.
Not sure he is escaping criticism though ...I think replacing him is something being discussed quite a lot .  Whether Flower stays or not.

But I am interested to see who will replace him.

I'm sure KP has his own batting coach, maybe him? There's gotta be someone out there!

Peter Moores?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 2:47 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2013/dec/27/piers-morgan-brett-lee-over-cricket

Maybe it's harder than it looks.

Knowing Brett Lee half of those were probably no balls. It was hilarious though.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 3:40 pm

Graeme Gooch and Andy Flower do not make a good unit really. Too regimented really. Just read David Gower's "Endangered Species", he has given enough hints that the regimented ways of Gooch had an adverse impact on his batting and led him to his relatively early retirement.
Perhaps they both should have a word or 2 with Guru Garry. He knew how to put his best players in a comfortable space and put them in a good mental frame from which they could be in a prime position to perform to their potential.
Ask Kevin Pietersen, ask Steven Finn.......

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 3:52 pm

Thing is MSP the Flower and Gooch worked for a period, but yes weve seen the opposite approach work for Australia after a period where a promising generation has been lost to mental frailty, injury and being Phil Hughes.

And different players flourish under different leadership. KP has certainly been happier (most of the time) under Flower despite him being exactly the sort of coach youd think he'd hate.

But yes the arguments been made elsewhere that rather than beating themselves up and "working harder" they actually just need to chill out a bit and enjoy playing cricket. Some of Swans comments allude to just that.
How much can you teach a 30 something about bowling? How much do you get out of writing up and essay on how bad your teammates are?

As for Gooch ... well his pet project was Bopara. Dropped more times than a skier to Panesar. He seems to have taken Root and turned him into a vegetable. Bairstow another long term development project is still ginger but now unable to master the basics of not trying to emulate KPs worst shots.
Yeah I think he should be moved on. Although Cook turned out alright.


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Post by Born Slippy on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 5:30 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2013/dec/27/piers-morgan-brett-lee-over-cricket

Maybe it's harder than it looks.

Knowing Brett Lee half of those were probably no balls. It was hilarious though.

The first one is a no ball by about a metre. Can't tell with the rest! Brilliant stuff - especially if you'd heard Morgan's comments beforehand!

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 5:49 pm

Have you seen the reaction from Sir Richard Hadlee?

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:28 pm

First off must give belated best wishes to Mrs Trebbs for a full recovery.

England looked in a poor state psychologically during much of the series last summer.  Although there was much mockery of posters / commentators who talked about the Aussies having achieved moral victory, there was element of truth. The momentum was shifting quickly.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 6:41 pm

I read Hadlee's response. Bit of a spoilsport - Lee was bowling big no balls, but didn't look to be going at 140kph. There was a team doctor, and Morgan looked to have a massive chest guard on. Cricket is inherently dangerous, but I can't see how giving Lee six cracks at Morgan is really life threatening...
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Post by Guest on Mon 30 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm

Would like to see Borthwick get a go at Sydney, but i can see Bresnan playing again :/

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Post by alfie on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 3:14 am

CF wrote:Would like to see Borthwick get a go at Sydney, but i can see Bresnan playing again :/

Borthwick could replace Panesar anyway , no ?

Can't really do any harm , unless he gets demolished like Kerrigan...and even then if he has the cojones he could survive a rough initiation.

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Post by alfie on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 3:17 am

kingraf wrote:I read Hadlee's response. Bit of a spoilsport - Lee was bowling big no balls, but didn't look to be going at 140kph. There was a team doctor, and Morgan looked to have a massive chest guard on. Cricket is inherently dangerous, but I can't see how giving Lee six cracks at Morgan is really life threatening...

Tempted to say anything goes with Morgan ...but I can see where Hadlee is coming from. But like some idiot boasting he would stand up to Mike Tyson and then actually having a fight promoted for TV...

Dangerous , and lacks dignity.

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Post by kingraf on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 8:16 am

Dangerous? Yes.. But life threatening? Hardly, might as well ban all future skiing amateurs. To continue with the Tyson allegory, Alfie, I'd say it's more like having putting a man in the ring with the current 50-year old Tyson, with a doctor on hand at his word, and more body padding than king Arthur ever had. How many cricketers have ever died from being hit in the head, or heart (like Hadlee said)? I know one, and it didn't stop his club from getting new members. So imo, it was dangerous, but so is letting an amateur into a F1 vehicle for spin. Morgan was asked halfway through if he wants to stop, and he replied in the negative - I don't know why Hadlee now wants to make decisions for him, as if Morgan is an invalid.

I know kids who can ramp it in the 130kph region who have their non-cricketing friends' come into the nets without a doctor, and much less protection - Plenty bruises, but no deaths.

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Post by msp83 on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 9:00 pm

Thought it was a serious overreaction from Hadlee. But I don't know what got into Brett Lee, one of the rare Australian favorites of mine, he's such a decent and nice bloke, not just off the field, but on it as well while remaining a massive cricketing challenge all the way. Why did he jump up for that bit of nonsense?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 31 Dec 2013, 9:26 pm

msp83 wrote:Thought it was a serious overreaction from Hadlee. But I don't know what got into Brett Lee, one of the rare Australian favorites of mine, he's such a decent and nice bloke, not just off the field, but on it as well while remaining a massive cricketing challenge all the way. Why did he jump up for that bit of nonsense?

Nobody should ever pass up the opportunity to try and seriously hurt Piers Morgan.
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