5th Ashes Test, Sydney

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 10:03 am

First topic message reminder :

January 3-7, Sydney Cricket Ground
Start time 1030 (2330 GMT)

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, IR Bell, KP Pietersen, GS Ballance, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SG Borthwick, SCJ Broad, JM Anderson, WB Rankin


The grassy SCG pitch should offer some assistance for the pace bowlers early on. Some grip there for the spinners too. It's not going to be too hot and there is the chance of a few showers over the 5 days - but nothing too substantial. Some cloud cover and high humidity though.


Last edited by Linebreaker on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 11:19 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Teams updated)
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:42 am

and gets a wicket. Johnson unable to resist. Handy little partnership. Great moment for Borthwick though.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:43 am

well that was really daft from Johnson, sorry. Great moment for Borthwick though, who's bounced back well after a dodgy first spell.

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Post by msp83 on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:44 am

First test wicket for Scott Borthwick, as Mitchell Johnson holds out in the deep, dragging one from outside off with a bit of a reckless sweep shot.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:46 am

Borthwick has found a better length, looks more settled and is finding a bit of turn.
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:47 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well that was really daft from Johnson, sorry.

Nope don't buy that. He'd gotten himself settled and had a look at Borthwick, and fancied taking him on; can't recall too much criticism of him smacking Swann around a few times. Maybe could have picked a better area, and the slog-sweep was risky with Borthwick's overspin, but can't blame him too much.

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:52 am

Harris not looking too comfortable against Broad you have to say. Wonder if Smith will be tempted to up the ante a bit?

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:55 am

and indeed he does, a lovely timed 6 over mid-on, followed by a gift of a full-toss earn Smith a well deserved hundred. Another really really good innings from the youngster, more aggressive than his previous effort but equally well constructed. Great to see.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 5:55 am

Thank you Scottie! That got what it deserved... and the one before that too.

Well done Steve Smith!  clap 
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:00 am

Smith coming of age now as a test cricketer. He is beginning to look more settled and confident in the side. Cracking century and he hadn't finished yet. Australia 294 for 7.
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:03 am

Yeah I agree with that Craig. He looks really at home at number 5. This has been a terrific innings - the only player so far to consistently leave the ball on length which has been key. He's also looked more confident. A sign of versatility that this hundred has been predominantly off-side whereas the previous one was almost exclusively leg-side.

Broad too short to Harris there - no point balooning bouncers over his head, need to get them up and under the armpit rather.

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:10 am

England looking past ragged now. A few of them look like they'd rather be somewhere else. Probably bring Stokes back in, the one guy who is going to run in all day.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:18 am

Still getting over the recovery from 97/5 to 318/7 now.

It's all about the trust Haddin - and now Smith - have shown with our tail-enders. The freedom to play their natural game, take a few risks perhaps (with a little bit of luck) speaks volumes for the amount of confidence the Australians have shown in Johnson, Harris, Sidds and even Lyon... who are then able to make significant contributions to the total with the likes of Haddin and Smith. It's a purely symbiotic relationship whether it succeeds or not.

Contrast that to KP's approach. We can't really blame him (or can we?) for not showing the same amount of faith in letting the England tail at least try to build small partnerships with him (or to try and make a start with him... if possible) and then hopefully turn those 20s, 30s into something more substantial... like we are seeing here with Smith and Harris Siddle now Lyon.  Wink 

The same thing has happened every Test now.

I'm surprised only one team is doing it and the other team seemingly won't even consider it. This says so much about the attitude of both sides.
Am I missing something... or are we to all accept that it's not even worth a shot... given the batting capabilities of the England tail against the Aussie attack this series?


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:23 am

At least Stokes is battling on and has his first five wicket haul in test cricket and is on a hat-trick.
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:24 am

Stokes it is, Harris pokes one to cover. Another handy partnership. England's openers would no doubt rather Australia survive these last 40 minutes or so, it could be a tough few minutes otherwise.

Over rate not the best; I appreciate they've been a few delays and the injuries, plus the spinner hasn't bowled that much, and a lot of boundaries have been scored and quite a few wickets taken, but still...

And Stokes has another one Siddle gone first ball! First 5 wicket haul for the guy, well done.

Australia have a good score on the board, but they're not exactly out of sight. Stokes may just have kept England in this. 400 would surely have been curtains.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:27 am

Well done Ben Stokes. A six wicket wicket haul. Great knock from Smith as well. I still feel Australia are in the box seat with 326 on the board.
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:29 am

Six-fer for Ben.  clap 

Great innings from both Smith and Haddin today.

Nice little 25 minute session ahead.



(I wouldn't mind it if they spared a few wickets until I get there tomorrow)
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:29 am

And that's that. Fairly tame in the end, final 3 wickets falling in the last over, as Smith mistimes one to mid-on.

326 is I think a good, possibly very good score on this pitch, but the old adage of waiting to see both teams bat before judging still stands.

England will have a very tricky period of 5 or 6 overs to bat before the end of the day; then face a fresh attack in the morning again.

Something which will have to be factored in - if Rankin has done his hamstring as it looks like, and can't bowl in the 2nd innings, England really are a bowler light. At the end of a long tour, on which Anderson, Broad and even now Stokes have bowled plenty. That's not ideal.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:30 am

Stokes clap

slow over-rates have been a regular fixture this series. I think the only way you'll get teams to sort it out is by handing bans out. Yes Eng had some mitigating factors today but as Mike says, still poor. As always you should wait for both teams to bat before judging, but that score looks pretty handy to me...

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:35 am

Stokes is evidence in this tour that if you are good enough then you can debut in Ashes cricket even when your team is being thrashed.

England have to survive this little session tonight unscathed you feel.
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:39 am

He is also evidence that you can almost always bank on a Cantabrian Kiwi to do the biz.  Wink
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:40 am

Warner being a loudmouth again by the looks of things, prize A numpty... Cook off the mark as Harris serves up a wide full toss which he gleefully punches for four through cover.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:41 am

Pity he wasn't doing that 4 Tests ago... right MfC?  Smile 
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:44 am

well Harris wasn't serving up wide full tosses then Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:45 am

msp83 wrote:Missed out on the first couple of sessions. England did a lot of good work in the first session, but that's all gone, as Australia have recovered from 97-5 to 263-6. Brad Haddin pulverizing the England attack with a blistering 75 with 13 boundaries of only 90 balls. Remarkable really from Haddin, each time he stepped into a pressure situation, he delivered in style. Deserves serious respect.
What a horrendous selection from the England team management. With atrocious move, I am fully convinced that Andy Flower shouldn't stay on as England coach for a day more after this test.
Steven Finn and Joe Root were the most promising tallents to have emerged during Flower's term, he and his management team messed both of them around pretty badly, and they are lost to English cricket, at least for now. Thanks for all that you've done, but its enough now, get lost Mr Flower!.

Your man love for Steven Finn is a little worrying msp
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:46 am

Must have been a gust of wind at the moment of release.

KP not padded up. Rankin must be the nightwatchman...
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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:51 am

Mitch has got Carbs out twice in 2 balls.

There was a faint edge on that first one.

Brilliant catch from Nathan Lyon!
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:51 am

Carberry never settled and looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Out for a duck to Johnson. I did say I would sooner Root played.
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:52 am

Brilliant from Australia. Johnson on fire, Clarke gets his field spot on, and Lyon takes an absolute beauty at leg slip. Anderson in as nightwatchman and I really wouldn't fancy being him right now...

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 6:56 am

well that was a rubbish innings from Carberry. he'll probably have one more knock to save his career.

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:00 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well that was a rubbish innings from Carberry. he'll probably have one more knock to save his career.

Hampshire won't drop him because of this tour, will they?  Wink 
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:03 am

England close on 8 for 1. Australia in command after the first day. Australia lead by 318 and England conceivably down a bowler in their attack as well.
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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:04 am

Anderson and Cook somehow survive.

Australia's day obviously. England not quite out of it, but one poor day away from a whitewash now you feel.

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:36 am

Ben Stokes at least has given England some cheer on this tour. Perhaps Ballance can do similar.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 7:50 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:England close on 8 for 1. Australia in command after the first day. Australia lead by 318 and England conceivably down a bowler in their attack as well.

"Command" is pushing it a bit ....if we didnt know England are incapable of getting more than 300.
But 318 is hardly an imposing total even on a pitch with a bit for the seamers. If the theory holds out and that was the hardest day to bat on then youd fancy a decent side to cover that even with one down.

Unfortunately this is England, and they have also crocked their bowling.


As for Root...look there is absolutely no evidence that the guy can bat in the top 3 currently. I doubt (hope) that this isnt a sign hes out of the picture long term, but in the short term England have taken a view he needs a break ...especially as he ( not carberry) needs to have some kind of willpower left to face the limited overs games. He has a chance there to redeem himself. Carberry however will go down as nice theory, but no thanks.
Lets no go overboard critisizing a decision to pick an opener as an opener rather than promoting a kid who has failed over a number of tours to score runs in the top 3 even if it didnt work out. It highly unlikely Riot wouldve done any better and instead took another mental battering.
Picking Rankin is the car crash in this game by the looks of it.
Lets also not forget the impact that Glorious Empires stinging critique no doubt had on the selectors minds.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:01 am

Stokes now averages 33 with bat and ball. Flintoff, who the English media had an absolute crush on, was 31 32 when he retired.

The thing thas impressive with Stokes today isnt the 4 mediocre batsmen he got out to poor shots, but being the guy who dismissed Asutralias best two batsmen both of who were well set and that he has the stamina to bowl effectively at the end of a full day.

The thing thats less impressive is he got hammered for those wickets at 5 an over, Finn was exiled for not being able to keep the run rate under 4.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:12 am

Linebreaker wrote:Still getting over the recovery from 97/5 to 318/7 now.

It's all about the trust Haddin - and now Smith - have shown with our tail-enders. The freedom to play their natural game, take a few risks perhaps (with a little bit of luck) speaks volumes for the amount of confidence the Australians have shown in Johnson, Harris, Sidds and even Lyon... who are then able to make significant contributions to the total with the likes of Haddin and Smith. It's a purely symbiotic relationship whether it succeeds or not.

Contrast that to KP's approach. We can't really blame him (or can we?) for not showing the same amount of faith in letting the England tail at least try to build small partnerships with him (or to try and make a start with him... if possible) and then hopefully turn those 20s, 30s into something more substantial... like we are seeing here with Smith and Harris Siddle now Lyon.  Wink 

The same thing has happened every Test now.

I'm surprised only one team is doing it and the other team seemingly won't even consider it. This says so much about the attitude of both sides.
Am I missing something... or are we to all accept that it's not even worth a shot... given the batting capabilities of the England tail against the Aussie attack this series?

Interesting you should bring this up , lb .  I was pondering on this very point the other day and considering bringing it up but you have done it for me :  yes Johnson has done a job on the England tail more than once in the series : but particularly in Melbourne we saw almost no contribution from the later England wickets , even though both innings saw Pietersen in , well set , with wickets to go...yet on both occasions he threw his wicket away without making any effort to marshal his tailenders and eke out runs.  In the first innings Anderson and Panesar actually resisted quite well for a while ...but with no batsman left , to not much effect. Could not KP have tried to play with them , take as much strike as possible , etc ?  Instead he came out and said in an interview that he basically didn't trust his tailender teammates !  Really calculated to boost their confidence ...

I don't think KP has ever been much good at batting with the tail , to be honest . It is almost as if he rejects the idea out of hand ...Wasteful , in my book . Had he managed to worry out another 20-25 each innings in Melbourne...

.Bell is better : he actually encouraged Panesar to stay with him a while in Adelaide , as I recall , for useful runs. And Root got stranded once , I think ; perhaps he lacks the experience to control the situation , but at least he didn't throw it all away.
Obviously a fairly fresh fire breathing Johnson makes it a tricky business ; but sometimes runs can be gleaned even in tough conditions. No question in my mind , at any level of the game , if you show your tailenders you trust them , they are apt to do better.

Of course , confidence plays a huge part ...and right now Australia have bags of it , and England almost none. Still worth the effort I reckon.

Oh for a Thorpe to bat with the tail...
Another argument for batting KP at three ?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:21 am

Guys like Broad and Swann are capable of doing what the likes of Harris have, you cant blame KP for them continuously failing to execute to their abilities on this tour.
Its also a little different when facing a genuine quick, another of the arguments as to why Finn should have been picked. It may be a simplistic cliche but genuine pace does have a habit of ripping through the tail where players are less able to work out what can be left and have a habit of edging even simple defensive shots against straight balls (Ok I could be describing England entire batting line up on this tour!)

Going back the last couple of years England have had a habit of shipping serious runs to the tail whether it was Tino Best, Ashton Agar, or Barry Chuckle. Remember the glory days when Swann used to bash out a 50 ball 40? Sigh.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:39 am

If it were not 4-0 , and we had not seen England fold up again and again , we would probably be looking forward to a pretty good match from here. 326 is an OK score - and fantastic after being 97/4 - but hardly a rock crusher...

If England could have a good day with the bat tomorrow (score 280 , lose four or five - too much to ask ? ) I guess they still could find themselves back in the game . Even achieving approximate parity would keep them in it...but hard to see , given all that has happened. We can hope.

Bad luck for Rankin. If he never gets another chance he will perhaps have a place in history for bowling two spells of one ball each...

I see Borthwick copped some hammer. Not the first leggie to experience that. But a wicket a least : let us see how he comes back from that next up...some success with the bat might help. Crossed fingers.

Stokes went for a few ; but six wickets , to go with his century in Perth , is decent for a lad who most of us thought was here as a spare wheel. Rough round the edges ; but there is something about him. May be one Good Thing to come out of this tour.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:44 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Guys like Broad and Swann are capable of doing what the likes of Harris have, you cant blame KP for them continuously failing to execute to their abilities on this tour.
Its also a little different when facing a genuine quick, another of the arguments as to why Finn should have been picked. It may be a simplistic cliche but genuine pace does have a habit of ripping through the tail where players are less able to work out what can be left and have a habit of edging even simple defensive shots against straight balls (Ok I could be describing England entire batting line up on this tour!)

Going back the last couple of years England have had a habit of shipping serious runs to the tail whether it was Tino Best, Ashton Agar, or Barry Chuckle. Remember the glory days when Swann used to bash out a 50 ball 40? Sigh.

Well yes ...I don't mean to be unfair to KP. He can't bat for them. But the point about the art of batting with the tail stands , I think. And Broad did make useful runs in Brisbane.
As to picking Finn ; it only makes sense if he is bowling at well over 90. When did he last do that ?

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Post by KP_fan on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 8:58 am

Some more observations from the day:

--Cook looks tired.....perhaps he doesn't sleep well these days....and is having bad dreams.
Means he is dreaming of Haddin.......cutting, slashing, pulling over mid.on scampering for 2s and 3s, eeking boundaries off good balls....and running away with games. Rolling Eyes 

--On top of that Mr. Mumbo-Jumbo is drilling in his head that he is a useless captain and making him think it's all his fault.
Captian Cook the superman we saw in India is one of my favorite batsmen and I wish he signs off the tour with a hundred tomorrow.

--Compton's curse has consumed Root......from being the most talented young batsmen in the world...to not finding a place in the 11 of a side losing 5-0  Shocked  it's nothing but compton's curse

--Ireland's curse has consumed Rankin......you can't pinch international cricketers from one country and use them blatantly

--Flower doesn't like Monty.....the harder he tries to break away from Monty as in the Kerrigan experiment...the more he is reminded by forces of universe....his dislikes notwithstanding.....there is a gulf between Monty and the next spinner..
Part time leggies like Smith and Manoj Tiwary are better than what Borthwick had to offer......no rip, no googly, no control......no future
next 5 years they must shut their eyes and play Monty.

--I am pleased for Stokes.....as I wrote on his debut century....he is new and hence his brain not conditioned yet by the dead/ defensive/ attritional aura that hangs in the English dressing room and has engulfed all the "old-timers"
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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:20 am

More comedy , KP f ?

You should do stand up...

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:41 am

KP_fan wrote:
--On top of that Mr. Mumbo-Jumbo is drilling in his head that he is a useless captain and making him think it's all his fault.

To be honest I doubt he reads your tripe

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:42 am

Linebreaker wrote:Diabolical move bringing Rankin back on after a slight hamstring strain. The poor bloke only lasts another ball and is off the field again.

Yes, I did wonder prior to the game whether so many debutants in a team under so much pressure would work, or whether one or more might crack...

That Kiwi, Stokes had a good game though  thumbsup 

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 9:46 am

Well done Ben Stokes - what a prospect he looks. clap

And what a masterstroke it was to pick Carberry. Not.  Laugh 

Test in the balance - be positive England, there's quick runs available and this is by no means a bat-once, bat-long job.

alfie wrote:More comedy , KP f ?

You should do stand up...

Now that GloriousEmpire's on the thread, his pathetic anti-English wumming has even more competition.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:13 am

Mike Selig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
So much of our early good work would be undone if we allow Australia to get to tea at, say, 190/5.

Well, erm, sorry to break this to you...


Not entirely surprised.

Different England cast but the same script.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:46 am

alfie wrote:

Well yes ...I don't mean to be unfair to KP.  He can't bat for them. But the point about the art of batting with the tail stands , I think.  

There definitely is a skill (aptitude - call it what you want) to batting with the tail.

One of the best exponents I've seen who sadly is no longer around and might just have been an outsider for this tour was Tom Maynard. He shepherded the tail so well and appeared to give them the belief that he had confidence in them. Surrey's tail last season (like England's now) was feeble and imo not unconnected to Maynard's passing.

Meanwhile, suggestions on cricinfo that Rankin's injury might have been psychosomatic. Concerning.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:46 am

Cramp for Rankin apparently, although I suspect that's a bit of smoke and mirrors
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 10:55 am

Stokes's figures tell his story really, a lot of loose deliveries, interspersed with some genuine class deliveries that got the wickets of class batsmen. Also impressed me how he stepped up the workload when Rankin went off. As Alfie said, rough round the edges but someone who could become very handy.

Borthwick less so. Showed that really bowling isn't his forte, and why he only bowls occasional leggies. But he deserves a second chance second time round and has the added bonus of being able to bat. Was impressed by his confidence, and the way he handled himself. Kerrigan seemed almost embarrassed to be there, Borthwick stood in the slips like he belonged.

Rankin was well rank. Never threatened in his overs before he got injured/cramp. Poor.

Still hope for tomorrow, if we're still batting at the close you'd fancy we will be there or thereabouts. Hope
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Post by KP_fan on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 11:07 am

Meanwhile, suggestions on cricinfo that Rankin's injury might have been psychosomatic. Concerning.

Psychosomatic?...isn't that a mental disorder.
Mumbo-Jumbo talk from the coach(es) is driving the simple but talented cricketers crazy.

I saw someone has coached Stokes also into modifying his run-up in a way that he is hitting the stumps and doing the no balls.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2014, 11:10 am

The exciting thing about a Stokes is that he looks capable of becoming a true allrounder. His bowling has plenty of pace now ; and it is reasonable to expect his control to improve with experience. And the batting needs more work but there is a lot to like : he may end up either a solid six who can play a big part in the attack ( perhaps the best outcome for England over the next few years ?) ; or alternatively be one of the four main bowlers , but also capable of very destructive batting at seven or eight. Though that fits best if a batting spinner is also fit for purpose...

Not wishing to big him up too much. So I'll zip it now  censored 

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