5th Ashes Test, Sydney

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 10:03 am

First topic message reminder :

January 3-7, Sydney Cricket Ground
Start time 1030 (2330 GMT)

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, IR Bell, KP Pietersen, GS Ballance, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SG Borthwick, SCJ Broad, JM Anderson, WB Rankin


The grassy SCG pitch should offer some assistance for the pace bowlers early on. Some grip there for the spinners too. It's not going to be too hot and there is the chance of a few showers over the 5 days - but nothing too substantial. Some cloud cover and high humidity though.


Last edited by Linebreaker on Thu 02 Jan 2014, 11:19 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Teams updated)
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 4:47 am

Duty281 wrote:Bairstow duck - his career over?

6 down, 3 lost in 10 minutes.

Bairstow didn't need that duck , true. Not sure they will write him off just like that , but I think he may need a lot of county runs to get another try. Actually would like to see him play ODIs. As a batsman I mean , Buttler will have the gloves.

Lyon wastes no time in bagging Borthwick as well...good bowling , and great catching  clap 

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 4:50 am

We've only had 23 overs as well.

Absolutely atrocious.

3 figures! Yahoo


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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 4:52 am

Catching has been outstanding , lb

In fact except for the top order batting , everything about this Australian team has been excellent. Something we shouldn't lose sight of while throwing rotten fruit at England.

"You can only play as well as your opponent lets you" ...not really true , but there is something in it.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:00 am

The reasons for 5-0 are obvious.

England's key players went AWOL.

Australia have been in top form as a unit with everyone contributing.

Australia have been better in every department.

Australia bowled as a unit to a consistent line and length whereas England have bowled far less consistently.

Australia's tail has wagged vociferously whilst England haven't had one until here in Sydney.


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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:00 am

Yes alfie. I'll try not to waste good fruit.  Smile 

Just pleased they persevered with Lyon. As they are saying - they were tinkering with the idea of going with 4 quicks in Brisbane. I'm glad he's played a part in this wonderful series for Australia. We'll need him to be in a confident state in SA (along with Johnson, Harris & Siddle) if we are going to have any chance of improving on the 26-12 record there.

Would be nice to see Mitch get to 40 wickets this Series but the way Lyon is bowling - 23 wickets from him would be very satisfying. The combined efforts of all 4 of our bowlers has been something to behold this summer.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:04 am

Stokes doing his best to dent the Lyon confidence  Smile 

Denting the average , anyway. But I don't think the Aussies will be too alarmed.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:10 am

Good batting practice for the ODIs...

They're just showing off now. Time to end the agony. Here's Harris!

Stokes Bowled.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:11 am

Have to like this Stokes...I know the pressure is off ; but he has consistently attacked , with bat and ball. Going down the same way here...

Harris bowls him off the edge , but another spirited effort.

Will be very surprised if he doesn't go on from here in Test Cricket.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:14 am

Line breaker I think the key is getting a more consistent return from the top order. The only criticism (if you can call it that) in this series is that the top order has often gone cheaply and Haddin and the tail have come to the rescue. I don't think you can afford that against South Africa. Your bowling unit is solid and so is the lower half's batting.


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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:15 am

Amazingly , Harris has not just survived the series but bowled better as it went on ...

Another one who has been overshadowed by MJ , but very important to his team. Australia will be hoping to keep him on the field for another year or so.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:15 am

alfie wrote:Have to like this Stokes...I know the pressure is off ; but he has consistently attacked , with bat and ball.  Going down the same way here...

Harris bowls him off the edge , but another spirited effort.

Will be very surprised if he doesn't go on from here in Test Cricket.  

No fear whereas the seasoned pros you could smell the fear. Also carrying no mental baggage.
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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:17 am

Lets' hope so, alfie.

I think you need KP to stay, Cook to remain captain... with all the retirements / Prior dropped over the last few weeks. Damage control needed. Keep the talent (include Borthwick for a little while yet... wouldn't be the right thing to drop him after one Test). Not convinced about Rankin though. Not sure about Ballance. I think they have protected Root but he will be playing next match for England.

Totally agree with you there, Craig. We've gotten away with very poor starts and relied on middle/lower order recoveries to get us into winning positions.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:23 am

Broad getting tuned up for the ODIs  Smile 

Fun while it lasts. Warnie being critical of Broad for his batting this series , a bit unfairly I think. He has been cleaned up a few times by some good fast bowling. If the top order had built any sort of platform we might have seen a few more from him , but expecting the number 8/9 to save the team is not too reasonable.

Gone now ...one more for Harris.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:25 am

Yahoo 

5-0!

Wow, that was fantastic.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:25 am

...and Harris with a well deserved five to finish it  clap 

Well done Aussies. I mean that.

...and thank god that's over  Smile  I mean that too...

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:25 am

All over.
Congrats Australia. Outplayed England comprehensively.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:26 am

Australia wrap up a 5-0 series win winning inside three days. A win by 281 runs. The celebrations and condemnations can begin.

Well done Australia - dealing out a thrashing that nobody expected.
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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:29 am

Same 11 players too. That's only ever happened twice before.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:29 am

Linebreaker wrote:Lets' hope so, alfie.

I think you need KP to stay, Cook to remain captain... with all the retirements / Prior dropped over the last few weeks. Damage control needed. Keep the talent (include Borthwick for a little while yet... wouldn't be the right thing to drop him after one Test). Not convinced about Rankin though. Not sure about Ballance. I think they have protected Root but he will be playing next match for England.

Totally agree with you there, Craig. We've gotten away with very poor starts and relied on middle/lower order recoveries to get us into winning positions.

Generally agree , lb.

I have some thoughts , on both teams and their futures ; but will hold them for later.

Just going to let you bask in the glory for now  Ale cake 

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:32 am

Thank you, alfie.  OK Ale 
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:32 am

Players England should stick with:-

Cook
Root
Bell
Kp
Prior
Stokes
Ballance
Broad
Borthwick
Anderson
Bresnan
Finn
Onions

Perhaps Carberry in the squad but they should look to younger players to open.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:36 am

I don't know if anyone would agree but I have been even more impressed with Harris than Johnson. He has bowled some beauties picking up more key wickets whilst Johnson's wickets have chiefly been tail-enders. Plus take into account the fact Harris has an on-going knee problem - unbelievable.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:43 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:I don't know if anyone would agree but I have been even more impressed with Harris than Johnson. He has bowled some beauties picking up more key wickets whilst John son's wickets have chiefly been tail-enders. Plus take into account the fact Harris has an on-going knee problem - unbelievable.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say Johnson's wickets were chiefly tailenders...he has some important top order scalps too. But you have a fair point about the importance of Harris in removing key batsmen early. He has had the top three a lot , I think. A remarkable achievement at 34 , with his injury history.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:47 am

Perhaps should reword it - a bigger percentage of Johnson's wickets were tail-enders than say Harris.
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:48 am

Have to praise Lehmann too. Wasn't sure how his rather old fashioned style would work when he took over so abruptly this year : but he has certainly pulled the right strings ! The change in team spirit - even when they were losing in the northern summer - was remarkable.
 clap 

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:56 am

There are chief worries for England going forward. Changes have to be made but so many of that side have performed badly. Cook, Bell, Root, Pietersen and Prior with the bat will probably be in future plans but all have toiled badly with the bat. Not only will new players need to be found and younger players but England need to hope their key players can rediscover a semblance of former - if not England are in deep trouble. Anderson ended the series better than he started it but his lack of former is a worry as is the indecision over who the chosen third steamers will be. They need to decide that as well as who they give the wicket-keeper gloves to.

A lot of soul-searching and decisions to be made for England.


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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 5:57 am

For me it was all about teamwork. They all chipped in when required. Add to that the fielding and constant scoreboard pressure in every match - it was almost the perfect team performance over a 5 match Test Series.

Broad needed the same support but unfortunately for England - it was not quite there (from Anderson & Co.) and Australia's batsmen (who were inconsistent at the top as we all saw) also pulled together in the middle lower order. I forget the stats but after the 4th Test it was something like +16 (612 to 596) runs in favour of Australia in the top 5 batsmen and +624 (842 to 218) runs for the bottom 5 batsmen.

Adding this Test it ends up as follows:

Australia Top 5: 964 runs
England Top 5: 694 runs... a difference of 270 runs

Australia Bottom 5: 1054 runs
England Bottom 5: 424 runs...  a difference of 630 runs
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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 6:35 am

Lol - Engerland suck! Quite worrying (for both teams, I suppose) that 40 wickets fell inside three days. I'm a huge fan of wicket taking bowling, and ball dominating bat, and I actually think fans come more when there is a promise of stumps cartwheeling... But this series has at times bordered on the farcical. Thank god it's over.

I'd probably pick Johnson as the player of the series, Bowlers win matches, and 37 wickets is a haul of note. Also chipped in with the bat. Its a fantastic game cricket, Johnson is undoubtedly the man of the series, yet if it wasn't for Haddin, England would likely have won the series...
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 6:56 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Australia wrap up a 5-0 series win winning inside three days. A win by 281 runs. The celebrations and condemnations can begin.

Well done Australia - dealing out a thrashing that nobody expected.

Three days. Absolute last time I fly half way around the world on a whim. It's like they knew and deliberately capitulated to leave me high and dry.  Can't even rely on them for a four day contest let alone a five day test. How depressing.

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Post by Mike Selig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:17 am

Perhaps Gerry, who believes SK Warne was "picked on merit" could remind us of Shane's first class experience and record when first selected for the Australian side.

Not saying that Borthwick is necessarily going to be a world beater, but he showed enough character and quality to suggest that he may become a decent, maybe even better than decent, bowler if given time. I'm not sure England can afford him to learn his trade in the test team necessarily though.

It's very easy to criticise England, but I think a lot of people aren't giving this Australian team enough credit. Whilst Haddin's and Johnson's contributions have taken all the headlines, there have been crucial performances from Rogers, Warner, Clarke, Smith and all the other bowlers - Haddin can't score runs without someone to help him out at the other end, and he's received vital support; ditto Johnson has been allowed to bowl in short sharp spells because his support bowlers have been so good. A terrific team effort, backed up by excellent planning and very good fielding.

For England, this test has been either the end of the end, or the beginning of the beginning, depending on how you see things. Flower gave a very good interview talking about a fresh start etc. I think England have taken this game a bit like that, hence the 3 debutants. It is more than I would have liked, but I understand the reasoning of using a dead test to have a look at people.

Of those, I was least impressed about Rankin - not the youngest and very one-dimensional. Interesting interview with Craig McDermott about Siddle changing his natural length, but Siddle was significantly younger than Rankin.

Ballance showed some quality. He got good balls in both innings, and is worth at least keeping in the frame.

Borthwick's attitude was excellent, didn't shy away from the challenge. No matter what the numpties say, he did turn the odd ball when he gave it a real rip, and has a good googly as well. He bowls at the moment too many loose balls even for a leg-spinner (1 bad ball per over from a leggie is fine, more is unideal), and needs to back himself to give it a rip every ball rather than float it up which he does too frequently, but there is something there. Good fielder too. Didn't see much with the bat. England have to decide whether he is best learning his trade in the England team (as Warne did to a large extent) or in county cricket; not sure the prospect of him bowling against Sri Lanka and India in the summer is that appealing, but then again if he's not going to bowl regularly at Durham that's pointless also.

As to the others, Carberry once the pressure was off played ok I thought, but I'd like to see Robson given a go in the summer. Bell's much supported move to 3 didn't actually achieve anything. Cook's mind is a mess - he should probably stay on as captain but needs to take control more; all this talk about opening partners, but Strauss was hardly the most free-scoring player either (neither is Robson, more in the Rogers category).

Bowling wise Anderson looked tired, and 3rd seamer is still a problem. Stokes showed a lot, and should have the number 6 slot for the summer at least, but despite what some would have you believe, his lack of control with the ball did harm England at times - as yet he can probably only bowl as part of a 5 man attack. Indeed England's 3rd seamer was a real issue throughout the series - Australia knew that once they saw off Anderson and Broad there were runs to be had, and indeed often they blocked Anderson off. I do think England have to invest in a potential replacement for Anderson, whether that is Finn or not depends on how he responds - whilst the management have messed him around a fair bit, ultimately it is up to him to take ownership of his game and sort himself out.

Looking to the summer:
Cook
Robson
KP (still think he should bat 3) - if retired, then Bell
Root/Ballance
Bell
Stokes
Prior (Bairstow not ready with bat or gloves, although I thought he did OK overall as a keeper) or if no form Foster/Read/Davies
Broad
Tredwell (probably)
Anderson
Finn?

ish...

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Post by GloriousEmpire on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:38 am

England lost 100 wickets to Australia for the first time in history as I understand it. Worst batting display ever? Or best bowling attack in history between the two sides?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:42 am

I cannot disagree with much of that Mike.  clap 

I feel changes do have to be made in various areas and not just out on the pitch.

On the pitch the key areas that need looking at are the opening batsman slot, the No.3 spot, the wicket-keeper spot, the spinners role and who is going to step into the third/fourth seamer spots.

Also I would not be too miffed if the likes of Bell, Prior, Anderson or Pietersen were rested for a test or two in order to see where the youngsters are at.

I do feel Borthwick should be persevered with - four wickets on debut in a side being massacred with uktra-aggressive batsmen is no mean feat. Most wickets by an England spinner in a test in this series?


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Post by KP_fan on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:42 am

KP_fan wrote:

--the academic rites will be over by 4th morning..and if Eng are in a hurry to go home...tomm evening  Very Happy 




i said the underlined in jest....and Eng made it come true.
Bowled out in 30 odd overs.......indicates no desire to fight it out..
Sad.
Even Sadder...Flower will get away without paying any price.

regards
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:45 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:England lost 100 wickets to Australia for the first time in history as I understand it. Worst batting display ever? Or best bowling attack in history between the two sides?

Well Cook was adamant this is the best bowling attack he has faced in his career. However, the batting was abysmal. Watching it reminded me of England's umpteen collapses against the great West Indies side of the 1980's.
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 7:47 am

I can only conclude that they don't like it up 'em.

Not sure what the prior poster meant by "flower getting away with it". I'm not sure it was him capitulating in 10 successive innings. An attempt to move the spotlight and finger of blame from the woeful performances of all senior English cricketers, five times on the trot?

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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:03 am

Have to honest - This has been Aztec exciting as 5-0 demolitions go - Purely because Australia's bowling attack has been suffocating, frightening even. Even McGrath has openly stated this is the best Australian pace Attack he's seen... I still think SA has the best bowling trio in world cricket , but we have never been this suffocating for this long.
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Post by KP_fan on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:08 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:The reasons for 5-0 are obvious.

England's key players went AWOL.

Australia have been in top form as a unit with everyone contributing.

Australia have been better in every department.

Australia bowled as a unit to a consistent line and length whereas England have bowled far less consistently.

Australia's tail has wagged vociferously whilst England haven't had one until here in Sydney.
 

yes it has nothing do with Flower at all  Rolling Eyes
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:10 am

It has been suffocating to most but England were too easily suffocated. At brief times players have broken the shackles when they have played positively. I am thinking of Stokes a few times, Carberry for brief moments, Broad today and first innings here. For England though their batting mindset was far too negative for the large part and were left waiting until they got peachy deliveries that got them out or threw away their wicket.


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:12 am

KP_fan wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The reasons for 5-0 are obvious.

England's key players went AWOL.

Australia have been in top form as a unit with everyone contributing.

Australia have been better in every department.

Australia bowled as a unit to a consistent line and length whereas England have bowled far less consistently.

Australia's tail has wagged vociferously whilst England haven't had one until here in Sydney.
 

yes it has nothing do with Flower at all  Rolling Eyes

Yes and Flower never got this side to No.1 in the world and masterminded their win in India.  Rolling Eyes 
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:14 am

I am generally in agreement with what Mike wrote above. Though I would be more inclined to persevere with Borthwick in the summer - at least for a start. Of course , depending on the weather , he may not get a lot of bowling early in the season.

I note the "?" in the post next to Finn. Indeed : Finn is appealing , at his best. But with Stokes already being both dangerous and expensive , it would need to be the "good" Finn , or things might get out of hand quickly...

Just to refer to the oft repeated suggestion that Anderson looked a bit tired : I looked at cricinfo stats. Last five years , bowlers , all formats. Anderson has bowled well over 3000 overs. Only other fast bowler anywhere near was...Broad , about 2500. Steyn , by contrast , has bowled about 2000. Johnson a couple hundred more...
(Incidentally , for the Anderson critics ; in that period the only fast bowler with significantly better figures was Steyn. And even he had an inferior overall economy rate )
But the point is , no wonder he looks a bit weary. Three or four months off now should be just what he needs.

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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:18 am

I will not bite Alfie!
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Post by alfie on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:20 am

kingraf wrote:I will not bite Alfie!

Nibbling , though  Smile

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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:30 am

just a nibble - went on cricinfo... had a lookie... Noticed that Anderson's bowled two hundred less overs in the last five years than Steyn has in his entire career!

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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:32 am

or is that - Steyn has bowled two hundred more overs in his career than Anderson has in the last five years? He'd manage his workload better if he just bowled teams out for 47, or something
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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:37 am

kingraf wrote:Have to honest - This has been Aztec exciting as 5-0 demolitions go - Purely because Australia's bowling attack has been suffocating, frightening even. Even McGrath has openly stated this is the best Australian pace Attack he's seen... I still think SA has the best bowling trio in world cricket , but we have never been this suffocating for this long.

That's because SA don't play 5 Tests anymore. This one was less of a contest compared to 2006/7. It was over a lot more quickly.

The 1920/21 whitewash would have been great to witness from all accounts.  Smile 
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Post by KP_fan on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:41 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The reasons for 5-0 are obvious.

England's key players went AWOL.

Australia have been in top form as a unit with everyone contributing.

Australia have been better in every department.

Australia bowled as a unit to a consistent line and length whereas England have bowled far less consistently.

Australia's tail has wagged vociferously whilst England haven't had one until here in Sydney.
 

yes it has nothing do with Flower at all  Rolling Eyes


Yes and Flower never got this side to No.1 in the world and masterminded their win in India.  Rolling Eyes 
why is Botham not playing for England still  Shocked 

If "once upon a time efforts"  still matter....why is Botham not playing  still laughing 
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:44 am

I do wonder why you are getting so het up about Flower though. I mean it is plainly evident you revel in England's failure so if he is a walking disaster then you should wish him to remain.
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Post by kingraf on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:51 am

has the quote function been changed? I see a lot of posters typing their comments within the quote now. I made the same mistake yesterday speaking to Guildford.
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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 8:57 am

I think KP_f fixed it. It's easy to hit "edit" rather than "quote". I've done it a few times!

Off Topic...
I just saw that Lleyton Hewitt beat Roger Federer at the Brisbane International.
His first (and probably last) win over The Fed since the 2003 Davis Cup*.

That caps off a very memorable day for Australian sport.

*I just checked on the Tennis Thread - he beat Federer at Halle in 2010.


Last edited by Linebreaker on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 9:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 9:22 am

Well that went swimmingly

Well played Australia, thrououghly outplayed and beaten into the ground.

We'll still win the ODI's tho Wink
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