Where now for England?

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 05 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust has hardly settled on the latest installment of the Ashes, but questions must be raised about where England go from here.

It's not just the fact that they lost 5-0, it's the way in which they capitulated, again and again, with little in the way of fight and, seemingly, no idea of any way to combat Australia's superb, aggressive cricket.

Add in various little things; the seeming lack of any contingency plan re. Trott; Swann leaving mid-series; Rankin going off for cramp then coming back on etc, etc. and it really seems that the wheels well and truly fell off for England.

That would suggest major failures at a management/captaincy level, but it appears that the ECB have already decided that there will be no changes at that level.

So, what next for England?

Does the back-room need trimming? Who needs to go? What do Flower and Cook have to learn from this? Does the playing personnel require big-time alteration or should we stick with the core of older players (of course this depends on whether the likes of KP remain available). Who should come in?

Personally I feel that this series has underlined England's lack of aggression, especially when batting, and an ability to fight fire with fire. Of course, this was largely down to superb bowling by Australia, but England didn't seem to possess either the skill or desire to try and take the attack back to the bowlers.

Was that just because England's batsmen were all short on form or was it symptomatic of a mind-set that has become ingrained within the England team under Flower? If the latter then, surely this is something that will need to be addressed in the future.

What also needs to be addressed in the future is the team itself. There are still at least 3/4 positions that need to be sorted. Does Carberry deserve to retain his slot as Cook's partner? If not who should be? Root? Robson? Compton? A.N. Other? Who should 'keep wicket? Bairstow? Get Prior back? Davies? Buttler? A.N. Other? Who should be the 3rd seamer? Finn? Rankin? Woakes? A.N.Other? Who should be the spinner? Has Borthwick done enough? Should Monty be back?


My view is that, while Carberry has done OK, he hasn't cemented his place, and it would be better, at this point, to bring in a younger player and give him the whole summer to establish himself. Robson would probably be the obvious choice, but I wouldn't be too averse to seeing Root back in that position.

Bairstow hasn't really done anything, for me, to justify his position as 'keeper. I'd bring in Davies who, while he might not be quite as good a batsman as Bairstow, is a far better 'keeper.

As for the 3rd seamer I'd like England to take a little bit of a punt on some variety. With Stokes in the attack there is room for a bit of a 'wild card', so how about someone like Tymal Mills?

Finally the spinner. Difficult one this, but I quite like Borthwick and think he's done just enough to continue in the team, at least against Sri Lanka. Maybe he should play in some of the ODIs earlier in the summer.

So, my team for the first test against Sri Lanka would be:

Cook(c)
Robson/Root
Bell
KP(?)
Ballance
Stokes
Borthwick
Davies(WK)
Broad
Anderson
Mills

Of course that line-up could all change as a result of retirements, injuries and form, but whatever the line-up, I would like England to try and show a little more aggression, especially when batting. If they can they'll be a better team IMO. Whether they'll be able to with Flower and Cook in charge remains to be seen IMO.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 7:06 pm

Carrotdude wrote:

On Joe Root, I'm on the side of giving him another go at opening but I do worry about his techinique given that he seems unable to play on the front foot and gets bogged down a lot with a very low strike rate. I'd say there's definitely something in the theory that Gooch or others behind the scenes are scaring some of these players out of playing more attacking cricket.

Yes you may have something there. Since Graham Gooch got involved we have seen similarities emerge from certain players such as Root, Compton and Carberry. There strike-rates have dropped like a stone now I wouldn't just say this was down to the individual. Carberry is generally renowned as scoring quickly but that eroded on this tour and you have to wonder if Gooch played a part in that?
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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 7:39 pm

I was as much if not more impressed with Stokes's batting in Sydney (first innings) as I was by his knock in Perth. Came in a more pressured situation (the game was gone in Perth) and IMO on a tougher pitch (I know Perth looked awful, but away from the cracks it played fine, and the balls which hit the cracks did too much and bounced rather than kept low, so didn't actually threaten the wickets); also undoubtedly the Aussies bowled better (they were understandably nervous in the 2nd innings in Perth).

In all the criticism of the England management, we should acknowledge the strides that Stokes has made so far as a batsman: from looking like a decent number 8 who maybe could bat 7 in the ODIs to now looking like he could well be a decent number 6 (he's not going to average 50+, but high 30s or even low 40s seems a reasonable aim).

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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 7:46 pm

As to other comments, Onions has always been a better bowler when not playing for England. He is of course a good bowler, but am not sure his is the answer to all the problems; in truth his last outing for England (against an average West Indies side) was poor. On the other hand he may be the 3rd seamer England are looking for, but then you simply cannot play Panesar; I'm sorry but Anderson, Panesar and Onions as 9, 10, 11 is not going to work.

Compton at 3 is not the worst idea in the world particularly if England are keen to pick a young opener to replace Carberry (be that Root or Robson); he may provide some (admittedly mainly first class) experience and solidity to the top order in that case.

I'm not so keen on trying out a complete novice at 3 if you have a youngish opener - I think that's too much inexperience at one time. With that being the case, and if Compo isn't recalled, then one of KP or Bell will have to move up the order, and of the two I would prefer KP for reasons I have expanded on before. Then 4 is a good place to try a younger player, be that Root, Vince (of whoom I am a big fan, simply looks class), Taylor or someone else. Give them a run and see what they can do. Once KP retires, whoever was number 4 will be experienced enough to move up the order, and you can slot in the next youngster on the block in his place. Simples.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 9:58 pm

"@KP24: I want to thank all the England fans for their terrific support. And I'm determined to help regain the Ashes in 2015."

KP again reiterating his desire to continue playing.

Compton should be nowhere near the side. He ain't among the 5/6 best batsmen we have
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:16 pm

Flower and Gooch, it seems, will stay.

Same old problems with the batting will come back to haunt England this summer, I feel.

You can bring in as new players as you like, but if there's no change at the top then England will still be stale and decrepit.

Tired old England might just get past Sri Lanka, but it's stretching even my boundaries of hope to say that we could get past India over five Tests.

Of course, if that does happen and England do just get squeezed out by India, then the coaching staff will no doubt remain beyond 2014 while banging out the old excuse "we're a side in transition". And then what? England beat the Windies home and away, no sweat, before walking right into the valley of death with a home series against Australia in 2015, and an away series against South Africa in the same year.

Change please - but there's nothing forthcoming. Poor show.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:Flower and Gooch, it seems, will stay.

Same old problems with the batting will come back to haunt England this summer, I feel.

You can bring in as new players as you like, but if there's no change at the top then England will still be stale and decrepit.

Tired old England might just get past Sri Lanka, but it's stretching even my boundaries of hope to say that we could get past India over five Tests.

Of course, if that does happen and England do just get squeezed out by India, then the coaching staff will no doubt remain beyond 2014 while banging out the old excuse "we're a side in transition". And then what? England beat the Windies home and away, no sweat, before walking right into the valley of death with a home series against Australia in 2015, and an away series against South Africa in the same year.

Change please - but there's nothing forthcoming. Poor show.

Is Gooch staying as well?
Does seem quite strange that, after quite such an abject performance, seemingly no one but the players are to blame.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:36 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Flower and Gooch, it seems, will stay.

Same old problems with the batting will come back to haunt England this summer, I feel.

You can bring in as new players as you like, but if there's no change at the top then England will still be stale and decrepit.

Tired old England might just get past Sri Lanka, but it's stretching even my boundaries of hope to say that we could get past India over five Tests.

Of course, if that does happen and England do just get squeezed out by India, then the coaching staff will no doubt remain beyond 2014 while banging out the old excuse "we're a side in transition". And then what? England beat the Windies home and away, no sweat, before walking right into the valley of death with a home series against Australia in 2015, and an away series against South Africa in the same year.

Change please - but there's nothing forthcoming. Poor show.

Is Gooch staying as well?
Does seem quite strange that, after quite such an abject performance, seemingly no one but the players are to blame.

He says he wants to stay and I haven't heard anything about him being fired or anything. Yet.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Flower and Gooch, it seems, will stay.

Same old problems with the batting will come back to haunt England this summer, I feel.

You can bring in as new players as you like, but if there's no change at the top then England will still be stale and decrepit.

Tired old England might just get past Sri Lanka, but it's stretching even my boundaries of hope to say that we could get past India over five Tests.

Of course, if that does happen and England do just get squeezed out by India, then the coaching staff will no doubt remain beyond 2014 while banging out the old excuse "we're a side in transition". And then what? England beat the Windies home and away, no sweat, before walking right into the valley of death with a home series against Australia in 2015, and an away series against South Africa in the same year.

Change please - but there's nothing forthcoming. Poor show.

Is Gooch staying as well?
Does seem quite strange that, after quite such an abject performance, seemingly no one but the players are to blame.

He says he wants to stay and I haven't heard anything about him being fired or anything. Yet.

Would doubt anything will happen until they're back on English soil post ODI's Duty.
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Post by Gerry SA on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:Flower and Gooch, it seems, will stay.

Same old problems with the batting will come back to haunt England this summer, I feel.

You can bring in as new players as you like, but if there's no change at the top then England will still be stale and decrepit.

Tired old England might just get past Sri Lanka, but it's stretching even my boundaries of hope to say that we could get past India over five Tests.

Of course, if that does happen and England do just get squeezed out by India, then the coaching staff will no doubt remain beyond 2014 while banging out the old excuse "we're a side in transition". And then what? England beat the Windies home and away, no sweat, before walking right into the valley of death with a home series against Australia in 2015, and an away series against South Africa in the same year.

Change please - but there's nothing forthcoming. Poor show.
Tbh if England are getting bowled out by India, then it's more than worrying. It's need ridiculous. 

I'd wager SL will pose more threat with the ball than Ishant Sharma and Zaheer Khan...

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Post by Mat on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:45 pm

For anyone interested, this is the side that was put together based on the individual teams  from Willis, Trescothick and Butcher, for the first test against Sri Lanka

Cook
Root
Bell
KP
Ballance
Stokes
Prior
Borthwick
Broad
Anderson
Onions

Butcher and Trescothick pretty much went with that side, Willis being the only one who advocated what could be considered wholesale changes, which included no spinners. His side was;

Root
Cook
KP
Ballance
Bell
A.N Other batsman
Buttler
Stokes
Jordan
Broad
Anderson

They didn't allow Willis to name the other batsman, and he might have had Stokes and Buttler the other way around, can't quite remember on that one. He also wanted KP as vice captain of the side

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:01 pm

Id go for

1. Cook (C) - If he screws up this series, he should be shot and then removed of captaincy. 
2. Joe Root
3. Ian Bell
4. Super KP
5. Ballence
6. Stokes
7. Butler (WK) - I think this move to Lancashire, is very beneficial and will help England A LOT, as Prior seems to of had it.
8. Borthwick
9. Broad
10. Anderson
11. Finn 

Chris Jordan maybe instead of Finn. But i was trying not to be biast, as i am huge huge Jordan fan. He was outstanding at Sussex this season. 

Haven't' commented on the cricket section much during the whole series, for an all manner of things. One because there were a lot of posts i didn't want to get involved in arguing in and also because the language i may use to describe Flower and Cook will get me banned from the website!!!

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 06 Jan 2014, 11:23 pm

I wouldn't have banned you, mate.  Smile 
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Post by msp83 on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 6:56 am

I'd go for
Alastair Cook (Captain for now)
Nick Compton
Ian Bell
Kevin Pietersen
Joe Root
Ben Stokes
Matt Prior (think he should get one last chance in the Sri Lanka series)
Stuart Broad
James Tredwell
Steven Finn
James Anderson
Graeme Onions will be my first reserve seamer, Garry Ballance the reserve batsman, Jos Buttler the reserve wicketkeeper.
Tredwell is the choice for led spinner because Panesar seemed a bit out of sorts in this series, but if he shows solid early season county form, he'll be back to led the spin unit with Tredwell being the reserve.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 7:35 am

Borthwick vs tredwell is a big call.
Tredwell is not an really a wicket taking spinner like swann in his pomp. Nor will he be around that much longer. Not can he bat well enough for it to really be a factor in his selection, picking him leaves England a significant tail.
But he does offer control and has generally stepped up to the plate in international cricket. Having him in the side would reduce the risk if having a genuine quick along with stokes ( expensive) an allowing broad and Anderson to bowl aggressively . It would take a huge leap in mentality an be very risky to not have a holding bowler in the side, and risk blunting broad who's been the best wicket taker when the bowling unit is strangling the opposition.

Borthwick conversely offers a bit more X factor, more potential and a lot more solidity to the batting line up. He too so far has shown good attitude and perhaps helpfully isn't so deeply rooted in the old dressing room culture which it's pretty universally agreed needs modifying.

Panesar has been heinous for most games since returning to the fold. His old enemies batting an fielding continue to count against him too. As does his private life and personality. No spring chicken either. All in you can forget him a far as I'm concerned.

The way flower works I can see the following happening:
They pick tredwell and look at the batting depth, bresnan selected instead of Finn/Jordan.
They pick borthwick and look at the lack of a holding bowler, bresnan selected instead if Finn/Jordan

Without stand out superstars available the side is going to be very had to balance, there will be a weakness somewhere. Right now the focus surely has to be bringing back some runs into the line up. On that basis if pick borthwick over tredwell/briggs/panesar or play both on spin friendly pitches.

Borthwick has a lions tour to prove his worth. Kerrigan has a chance for some kind of redemption on that too.
If neither of those shines in sri lanka then it really is back to the drawing board and a choice between tredwell or 4 seamers, root pretending to be graham hick, and a lot of batsmen.

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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:05 am

msp83 wrote:I'd go for
Alastair Cook (Captain for now)
Nick Compton
Ian Bell
Kevin Pietersen
Joe Root
Ben Stokes
Matt Prior (think he should get one last chance in the Sri Lanka series)
Stuart Broad
James Tredwell
Steven Finn
James Anderson
Graeme Onions will be my first reserve seamer, Garry Ballance the reserve batsman, Jos Buttler the reserve wicketkeeper.
Tredwell is the choice for led spinner because Panesar seemed a bit out of sorts in this series, but if he shows solid early season county form, he'll be back to led the spin unit with Tredwell being the reserve.

 OK 
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:20 am

you remember msp the days of Chappell as a coach...pappu Dravid as a captain........and Chappell's sidekick some Dr. Ian Frazer of sports medicine....as bio-mechanical expert

Chappell was trying all his micro.management theories read in book......too much of over-analysis, extra clever, over strategic approaches..to the extent that boys forgot to do the simple things right........

Bhajji and Sehwag the naturals but rural minded guys were frozen, Tendulkar and VVSL's mouths shut and Ganguly dumped.... too many instructions....too much of coaching and and at a micro-level being told what to do.

every bowler broke down in pace or completely with the meddling of Neem-Hakeem Dr. Ian under the name of fixing bio-mechanical rythm.

Pappu Dravid was a silent witness....just didn't have the persona to over-ride any of that.

When I look at the Eng team of today...it seems I am looking in the mirror at the Indian team of 2005-06 going through the Chappell saga
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:43 am

And here is Boycott writing in telegraph......very sane thoughts here.

The biggest danger for Eng is if they do nothing.....they will still beat Lanka and will come out better in a 50-50 battle vs India in their home conditions......and Flower etal with their wordsmithed talk......will get away creating a perception all is well..... until they run into SA/Aus anywhere or Pak in UAE.

It's England's moment of truth.
In their moment of truth...Aus dumped Micky Arthur and brought Boof.

Indians dumped Chappell mid-way and now they have with sugar coated celebrated retirements dumped their past expiry date seniors


There is a real danger England will sweep this 5-0 defeat under the carpet, pretend it never happened and it was nobody’s fault.
They will carry on with the same captain, coach, players and planning. Well that is not good enough. The players have been mentally dissected and broken. There was no fight or spirit left in them and they were totally humiliated by an Australian team that is good, but not great. The last whitewash was achieved by a team containing Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath and Adam Gilchrist. They had three once-in-a-lifetime players and there was no shame in losing 5-0 to them. But we should be ashamed and embarrassed to lose so abjectly to this lot.

Andy Flower says he is up for the challenge of turning this around and the England and Wales Cricket Board will give him a chance because it likes nice people who do not cause it any problems.
But has he really got the fight for it? Is he really strong enough to make difficult decisions? His recent calls do not bode well. They have been a joke: Picking Simon Kerrigan and Chris Woakes at the Oval last summer, three fast bowlers for this tour (Steve Finn, Boyd Rankin and Chris Tremlett) who disappeared without trace, and Scott Borthwick, a club standard leg-spinner, for this Test. If he was a manager in the Premier League he would have had the sack long ago. Loads of the backroom staff would be out of a job as well.

The England and Wales Cricket Board says it does not want to make knee-jerk reactions but we also do not want complacency and comfort. That is not going to win back the Ashes.
Over recent years England have employed more backroom staff believing it makes them more professional. In fact, they have over-complicated professionalism. We have coaches for everything. Psychologists, team analysts and an 82 page diet book that made us a laughing stock. It is time they got into the real world and stopped wasting money on frivolous luxuries that do not make any difference when Mitchell Johnson is whistling it around your earhole. The players have stopped thinking for themselves.

In my day when we had a problem, either with batting or bowling, we used to talk it over with our colleagues in the team and worked things out together. It built team morale. It engaged everyone in the dressing room. Now we have robots waiting for a coach and an analyst with a laptop to tell them what they are doing wrong.
Well, I can tell our batsmen what they did wrong. They forgot the principles of Test match batting. They batted like one-day clowns.
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Post by Stella on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:53 am

I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:01 am

Stella wrote:I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.

you are brushing Boycott's comments under the carpet
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Post by Stella on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:04 am

KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.

you are brushing Boycott's comments under the carpet

The 'swept under the carpet' comment, yes. Only a fool or/and an attention seeker would write that.
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:30 am

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.

you are brushing Boycott's comments under the carpet

The 'swept under the carpet' comment, yes. Only a fool or/and an attention seeker would write that.

I do admit sometimes these days Boycott sounds senile.
But here he is sounding perfectly sane.

It's self defeating to label foolish and attention seeking what one doesn't agree with.
However please highlight in Boycot's comments the foolish and attention seeking parts if that is what you believe some or all of those comments are
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Post by Stella on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:40 am

KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.

you are brushing Boycott's comments under the carpet

The 'swept under the carpet' comment, yes. Only a fool or/and an attention seeker would write that.

I do admit sometimes these days Boycott sounds senile.
But here he is sounding perfectly sane.

It's self defeating to label foolish and attention seeking what one doesn't agree with.
However please highlight in Boycot's comments the foolish and attention seeking parts if that is what you believe some or all of those comments are

I did. The 'swept under the carpet' comment. Stupid thing to say. It won't be.
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Post by Rowley on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:54 am

Think the danger there is a chance of interpreting not reacting in a knee jerk fashion with sweeping the loss under the carpet. There is a lot of blood lust and anger around in the press and fans at the minute, if we were to satisfy the more extreme elements of the righteous indignation we would have shut of most of the team, Flower, Gooch, Saker and pretty much all of the coaching staff, a solution which is completely impractical and almost certainly not the answer.

There will inevitably be changes both on the pitch and off it, but keeping your powder dry and actually trying to get to the bottom of what went wrong is the right way of doing things. Whilst I don’t agree with the basic premise of Boycott’s article that this should not be swept under the carpet to suggest it is being done when less than a week has passed since the final test this seems to be jumping the gun a little.

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 10:11 am

Rowley wrote:There is a lot of blood lust and anger around in the press and fans at the minute, if we were to satisfy the more extreme elements of the righteous indignation we would have shut of most of the team, Flower, Gooch, Saker and pretty much all of the coaching staff, a solution which is completely impractical and almost certainly not the answer.

Exactly.

I return to my original point. If England do choose to sack Flower or anyone else, they should do so because they think there are better options available, not as some kind of "punishment" for poor results.

Boycott's comparison with the EPL where managers are sacked every other week shows all you need to know IMO.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 10:13 am

Hi Jeff - should your final sentence have read, - ''Whilst I don't DISagree with the basic premise of Boycott's article etc''?

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Post by Rowley on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 10:17 am

Hi Guildford, it should indeed have read that, guess my in built filter that prohibits me from saying anything negative about a Yorkshireman kicked in.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 10:56 am

Mat wrote:For anyone interested, this is the side that was put together based on the individual teams  from Willis, Trescothick and Butcher, for the first test against Sri Lanka

Cook
Root
Bell
KP
Ballance
Stokes
Prior
Borthwick
Broad
Anderson
Onions

Butcher and Trescothick pretty much went with that side, Willis being the only one who advocated what could be considered wholesale changes, which included no spinners. His side was;

Root
Cook
KP
Ballance
Bell
A.N Other batsman
Buttler
Stokes
Jordan
Broad
Anderson

They didn't allow Willis to name the other batsman, and he might have had Stokes and Buttler the other way around, can't quite remember on that one. He also wanted KP as vice captain of the side

I saw the programme too. Although not always agreeing with him, I found Willis' comments the most interesting and wished he had been able to develop them further. Not their fault but Trescothick and Butcher were very samey and tended to get their way being in the majority.

Amongst Willis' comments -

* An all seam attack for the first Test of 2014 with Root and Pietersen bowling the slow stuff. Willis called for Root to be bowling regularly in the County Championship. Shame Gillespie wasn't there for the ''county vs country'' potential argument.

* Buttler as batsman-keeper.

* As Mat suggests above, Willis referred to ''bringing in another batsman'' but didn't name him or get an opportunity to do so. I did feel Willis seemed a bit confused here.

* Most interestingly for me as it ties in with doubts I still have (although they've been silent recently), Willis did not want Stokes batting at 6. ''Too high'' was his blunt assessment.

* Pietersen to be vice-captain and ''part of the inner sanctum''. Willis suggested his experience was not being properly utilised for the good of younger team members. In some support, Butcher cchipped in - his only meaningful contribution - as to how beneficial Pietersen has been with Surrey's younger players at the Oval.

* Taking a leaf out of Mike's book, Willis called for Pietersen to bat at 3.

* A call for one bowling coach alone to work with Finn and get him back on track, citing Australian examples.

* Looking ahead to the Ashes 2015, Willis threw in the name of young Lancs batsman Luis Reece. He's not a player I know much about at all but I recall another poster (sorry forget the name) giving him a shout a few weeks ago - early days for him but his CC career has certainly started well.

Bowlers not making the Sky team for Sri Lanka in the summer but getting interested mentions included Jamie Overton (''maybe just a bit too soon for him'' comments), Finn (''a good bowler but we really don't know what is going on'') and Jordan. On the last one, I accept Nick's comment that he was outstanding for Sussex last season. However, he was absolutely dire for Surrey the two seasons before that - still not convinced his (admittedly splendid) recent form will last.

With regard to the suggested team for next summer and as host Colvile emphasised, ''it is hardly a brave new world''. From this week's Test - Root for Carberry, Prior for Bairstow, Onions for Rankin and that's it. All pretty predictable with the back row of the chorus being dumped when the stars of the cast failed so badly. I'm not saying that's wrong (it's not as if there are that many shining stars out there) but it's clear that existing performance of those remaining will need to drastically improve.


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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 11:16 am

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Stella wrote:I very much doubt this series will be swept under the carpet. We had the Schofield report last time we were beat 5-0, remember.

Boycott talking gibberish as normal.

you are brushing Boycott's comments under the carpet

The 'swept under the carpet' comment, yes. Only a fool or/and an attention seeker would write that.

I do admit sometimes these days Boycott sounds senile.
But here he is sounding perfectly sane.

It's self defeating to label foolish and attention seeking what one doesn't agree with.
However please highlight in Boycot's comments the foolish and attention seeking parts if that is what you believe some or all of those comments are

I did. The 'swept under the carpet' comment. Stupid thing to say. It won't be.

The chief of ECB gave the thumbs up and vote of confidence to Flower and Cook....on what basis ??
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Post by Guest on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 12:50 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I do wonder about Root at times. We keep getting told that it is a given that he will be in the England side for years to come and what he'll achieve. All I will say is that I am not convinced yet.


thats because he keeps being messed around by the management, give him a settled spot in the side and let him have an extended run at it!

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Post by Carrotdude on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:09 pm

I think it's important to look at how we play in the summer as much as the results. I want to see an attempt to play at a higher tempo and be more positive and attacking, none of this 2 an over batting and negative fields especially to new batsmen or as soon as a batsman takes on the bowlers we shove everyone on the boundary and hope for the best. I also want to see more plans and control when bowling to people who have had the wood over us such as Haddin in this series - we sort of decided we didn't know how to get him out and just gave up, or that's what it looked like to me.

But the batting is more important, more intent, less hiding in shells and some big scores please.

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Post by Carrotdude on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:12 pm

Also it concerns me that lots of people, especially on TV such as the programme last night, seem to be lambasting England for having no pace and that without it we'll never match the Aussies. All you need it one look at Mcgrath or Philander's stats to tell you that's rubbish (or Jimmy and Broad for that matter). Obviously it would be nice to have that option in an attack but it really isn't the be all and end all - Harris is quicker than our guys but not by much at all and he was as good as Johnson if not better in this series purely by excellent line and length and good captaincy/field placings.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 1:18 pm

Carrotdude wrote:I think it's important to look at how we play in the summer as much as the results. I want to see an attempt to play at a higher tempo and be more positive and attacking, none of this 2 an over batting and negative fields especially to new batsmen or as soon as a batsman takes on the bowlers we shove everyone on the boundary and hope for the best. I also want to see more plans and control when bowling to people who have had the wood over us such as Haddin in this series - we sort of decided we didn't know how to get him out and just gave up, or that's what it looked like to me.

But the batting is more important, more intent, less hiding in shells and some big scores please.

Yeah this is what I've been trying to get at. New personnel of course, but also a different attitude required.

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Post by Stella on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 2:46 pm

Interesting

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/707677.html
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 4:05 pm


KP might be made a scapegoat...says Vaughan in telegraph

I have my fingers crossed and hope England do not take the easy way out of this mess by making Kevin Pietersen the victim for the Ashes whitewash.
I accept something has to give. Either Kevin is given more responsibility, and I suggested at the weekend that he should be made vice-captain, or he has to go. There is no point keeping him on as a peripheral figure.
Alastair Cook needs to use Pietersen properly and ask him how he sees his own future, and his view on the style of cricket the team have to play to become No1 in the world again.
I fear England will not do that and decide to get rid of Pietersen. That would be a sad loss for English cricket, the game cannot afford for that to happen. He is too good a player. The team will be dull without him. OK, you have to have the right characters in the dressing room. But if you cannot manage someone such as KP then you are not doing your job properly.
Egos are easy to handle. You have to make those guys feel as if they are the most important person in the team. The other players have to realise you manage those guys differently. You have to butter up their ego and tell them how great they are. Why would you not do that with someone as good as Pietersen? I would tell him: ‘Thirty thousand have come here to see you bat, not the rest of us. Go and entertain them.
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Post by msp83 on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 5:41 pm

When I wrote my last to last comment here, I wasn't mentioning KP's dropping entirely in ironic terms, but seems Mr 'Can Do No Wrong' is already on to it. His micromanagement nonsense has put England here, now it seems he wants to put all the blame on Kevin Pietersen who would not fit into the 'Yes Sir' culture. Well done Mr Flower, very well done indeed!.
Appoint him for a life term as England coach and drop KP, revoke his English passport, English cricket will rule the world!!!.
Bloody brilliant!!.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 7:11 pm

Stella wrote:Interesting

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/707677.html

I don't think that Flower is in the position to be making these demands quite frankly. He's pretty lucky to still be in a job, to be making demands like this is wrong, and I'd rather KP stayed on and Flower went honestly if it comes down to it.
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Post by alfie on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:23 pm

Leaving aside all the BS about KP and Flower...

One problem England faces in the near future is what to do with Joe Root.

You'd have to be blind or stupid not to see that this young man is one of the most promising young talents to arrive on the international scene for England in the last few years. He hit a hurdle or two against Australia lately ; but he remains very clearly a prospect ' and a would be a pity if he were lost even temporarily due to mishandling .

I was one who didn't really want him moved to open in 2013 ; but I accept that that was an attempt to improve the dynamism of the England lineup and will not go overboard on criticizing the move. However the evidence is piling up that the top order spot is not one that Root can handle right now ; and I fancy it would be better if he were allowed to return to the 5/6 slot for the time being , rather than be bullied out of the game altogether .

There is of course the counter argument that Bell /KP won't be around in a few years and England should be developing the next generation. But I am not sure that pushing Root up ahead of time is going to help that development....

Consider : The whole batting lineup has been underperforming now for about twelve months. Moving KP to number three and appealing to his ego (come on Kevin ; you are our best player - how about going in at three where you can dictate the game pattern ? Give it a go , eh ? ) would have the duel effect of settling the four to six (Bell/Root/Stokes) and ensuring that the team wouldn't get bogged down after Cook is dismissed ,whoever is the other opener. Sure it might mean some early 29/2 etc....but what else is new ? Worth a try surely ?

Just feel stubbornly leaving Root at 2/3 risks wasting a serious talent to no likely reward. Even should he make some runs against the less than fearsome pace attacks of Sri Lanka and India , would it really mean he was ready to take on Australia and SA in 2015 ?

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Post by msp83 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:35 pm

Perhaps it would be a good idea for Andy Flower to reflect on how the likes of Steven Finn and Joe Root went off the course. It would be great if he could come up with an answer beyond Kevin Pietersen.......

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Post by alfie on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:03 pm

Finn is a totally different case.

He never had a perfect action/run up. When he first arrived he had issues with falling down in his delivery stride...obviously not ideal. Later he developed the bad habit of hitting the stumps (at the wrong end ! ) in delivery , leading to the absurd "Finn No-ball " rule...For all his wicket taking ability he has not yet established consistency.
I do not think it unreasonable for the coaching staff to be working on him. Now whether too much coaching has adversely affected him , or whether his underlying flaws have set him back , I cannot say. But after watching his abject display at Trent Bridge last year I can see why England are a little twitchy about deploying him in the Test arena again...

The lad has promise. But let us not be blaming the Evil Flower for every slip in performance.

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Post by msp83 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:10 pm

alfie wrote:Finn is a totally different case.

He never had a perfect action/run up.  When he first arrived he had issues with falling down in his delivery stride...obviously not ideal.  Later he developed the bad habit of hitting the stumps (at the wrong end ! ) in delivery , leading to the absurd "Finn No-ball " rule...For all his wicket taking ability he has not yet established consistency.
I do not think it unreasonable for the coaching staff to be working on him.  Now whether too much coaching has adversely affected him , or whether his underlying flaws have set him back , I cannot say. But after watching his abject display at Trent Bridge last year I can see why England are a little twitchy about deploying him in the Test arena  again...

The lad has promise.  But let us not be blaming the Evil Flower for every slip in performance.
Alfie, there is a confidence issue with Finn. There are certain technical issues, but the way they handled him leading up to that first Ashes test was pretty poor. And if Flower is honest to himself, he would see he made some big mistakes with Finn as well as Root.

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Post by alfie on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:15 pm

msp , I agree confidence seems to be part of Finn's problems.

But I think you are assuming Flower is to blame for them. Maybe ; maybe not. But we do not know. Unless you have been closely observing the England dressing room/practice sessions.  Smile 

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