Mark Duggan

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 1:11 pm

The last article was removed, I assume, for the shameful allegations being levelled at the police such as evidence tampering, police corruption, corrupt juries, fixed crown court trials etc... All clearly absurd so let's steer clear of these baseless accusations on this one please.

Rather than looking at the court case itself, how about we look at how things can be improved in the future. Is wearing a camera on duty for an armed officer helpful? Do they need to do more for community policing? What exactly should the role of the police be?

I can see the merits of a camera, but what a policeman see's during his split second in dealing with a dangerous situations, and what a camera records are two different things. The evidence here would need to be handled carefully.

For me the police need to get tough on gangs. The police in this country mother you, and if you so much as swear at someone they can report you for hurting their feelings. More of a no-nonsense approach is needed. Ultimately, criminals will never like police, so why should the police be nice to them.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 1:39 pm

Good idea LJ, and I think it is the way this whole debacle SHOULD be being looked at. Not backwards but forwards. Nothing's bringing the lad back and 10 jurors with FULL visibility of the case and all the evidence came to informed conclusions so that's it done and dusted now, IMO.

What can be improved and done better? The jurors unanimously voted that police had not handled matters well in the lead up.

Better/more thorough intelligence needed before engaging in armed pursuits maybe? In terms of how this can be enforced, maybe a warrant is required?

Cameras on armed police would help, it monitors them and there actions and increases accountability BUT, importantly, it forces the public when criticising to view things from the policeman/woman in question's perspective there aides understanding and engagement from ignorant, to put it slightly harshly, lay people.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 1:42 pm

Before it degenerates, consider this thread on a short leash, if it looks like following the course of the last one it will be binned.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 1:58 pm

Also, re the tough policing, I'd agree, except that it's tough policing inevitably hits communities hardest which already have a collective chip on their shoulder re heavy-handed policing and feeling targeted/oppressed.

Just look at stop and search. It's been the cause of multiple riots over the last 50 yrs but the simple fact is, if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks. Not an even spread across everyone just so one section of society doesn't get upset as this would make it pointless.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 1:59 pm

The only issue I have with cameras is that a police officer will be more conscious of how they are acting in public, they will lose some of their uniqueness which perhaps made them a good officer. I personally have no issue with a copper telling a criminal they are a piece of Poopie, but I imagine if such footage were to find its way into the press then heads would have to roll.

I think criminals have it ok in this country. Pursuits are often called off because they are too dangerous. It incentivises wreckless behaviour.

Armed police have perhaps the most difficult decisions to make when presented with potentially life threatening situations. I think we need to accept (although can still investigate) that a split second decision may not always be a perfect one. Although I think in this situation the police were rightly vindicated.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 2:01 pm

Rowley wrote:Before it degenerates, consider this thread on a short leash, if it looks like following the course of the last one it will be binned.

Understood.

In fairness this is set up sensibly at the moment, it shouldn't be about Duggan and what his family & supporters may/may not feel, it's about how policing and community engagement can be improved in the future. That's something relevant and important to everyone, irrespective of age, gender, race, ethnicity, sexuality or social or economic grouping.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 2:03 pm

The stop and search is a difficult one Toppy, I agree.

Statistics show that more black people commit gun/knife and drug (I think drugs??) crime than any other group. Naturally the police are going to be drawn to black folk, and rightly so.

When I was younger and a bit of a trouble maker, I was stopped and searched on 3 occasions. At the time I was annoyed but looking back it was perfectly justified. The people that are being searched, for the most part, will be making a nuisance of themselves so can have no complaints.

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Post by No1Jonesy on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 2:09 pm

Why should police have to wear cameras? I have never had armed police shove a gun in my face - mainly because I dont walk around carrying lethal weapons.

No matter how you dress it up criminals have it far too easy and the media quickly rush to give the criminals extended family the stage because they shout the loudest.

From the forums I have been on and the people I have actually spoken too, the majoroity of the public are actually on the polices side with this and not the minority shouting the loudest.

Carry a gun - consequences come with it. I know this, and so does the majority or law abiding citizens. Wonder if he was never monitored that day would we be reading an article about Mark Duggan murdering one or multiple people??

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 2:17 pm

I hear that stop and search is going to become less frequent, as the police bid to improve community relations.

In fairness, statistics do indicate that stop and search is being used far too frequently and often without just cause.

And I do think it's right that the police have to wear cameras. It will certainly make the job of the jurors and the courts a heck of a lot easier in the future with cases like this one.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:Why should police have to wear cameras? I have never had armed police shove a gun in my face - mainly because I dont walk around carrying lethal weapons.

No matter how you dress it up criminals have it far too easy and the media quickly rush to give the criminals extended family the stage because they shout the loudest.

From the forums I have been on and the people I have actually spoken too, the majoroity of the public are actually on the polices side with this and not the minority shouting the loudest.

Carry a gun - consequences come with it. I know this, and so does the majority or law abiding citizens. Wonder if he was never monitored that day would we be reading an article about Mark Duggan murdering one or multiple people??

We all make decisions in life. We all choose our path. The destination is inevitably the same. The only difference is how long it takes to reach your destination. Gun running and being a member of a feared street gang won't help your life expectancy.

The guy was dangerous and had a firearm with him. As far as I'm concerned it's one less career criminal on the streets.

Had Duggan made the choice to be at home, watching football, playing an XBOX or Play station, watching corrie, finger knitting or anything else I'm 100% sure he would be alive today.

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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:03 pm

Duty281 wrote:
And I do think it's right that the police have to wear cameras. It will certainly make the job of the jurors and the courts a heck of a lot easier in the future with cases like this one.

It is only armed police.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:09 pm

Duty281 wrote:
And I do think it's right that the police have to wear cameras. It will certainly make the job of the jurors and the courts a heck of a lot easier in the future with cases like this one.

Will also keep Channel 5 stocked with documentaries for years to come.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:11 pm

I suspect the nature of this thread means only theories which fall in line with the accepted line are permitted?

quite.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:23 pm

In fairness, it's a slightly difficult subject for you to input on Kingy...

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:29 pm

how so TH?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:51 pm

wasn't meant to sound harsh Kingy, you're one of my most liked and respected posters on here. It's just that this shouldn't be a theoretical debate, it should be about the practical - which is all in the context of British policing, British social values & policy etc.

Things may be similar or very different in SA, which would likely influence your opinion on matters to the extent where we risk debates derailing with accusations of conspiracy and oppression and the like. Your comment above reflected this.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 4:58 pm

http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk/docs/Jurys_Determination_and_Conclusion.pdf

Here's the full conclusion of the jury at the inquest.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:02 pm

in general, I agree with that statement, hence I don't post on the Scottish independence thread, or post anything worthwhile on the immigration thread. the difference here is that I've had "practical" experiences with British police. I've probably been there for an accumulative period of six months in my entire life, and I was "spoken" to by the police over here an alarming amount of times...
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:02 pm

As per Rowley's request, I don't think this is the forum/thread to be discussing the outcome/determination of the case and its merits or otherwise. Such a thread will likely be quickly shut-down as a continuation of the thread that was removed previously.

Let's focus on what can be done to improve policing and crime prevention in the UK whilst addressing community concerns.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:11 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:17 pm

Agreed.

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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:17 pm

I think curry houses are institutionally racist. I've never seen a single honkey working in one.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 5:26 pm

Fair enough - I didn't comment on the original thread because my minds eye indicated that the thread was more likely than not a train smash.

As for What can be done - it's a difficult question as I neither like nor trust police officers, and I'm sure that my feeling is a prevalent (though probably not majority) view on the cops by minorities.

I don't know how much changing the race of the officers on the street helps. If a force is seen as "institutionally racist", I don't think changing the color of the foot soldiers helps. Does a company with all white owners and an all white board that suddenly starts hiring non-white office workers look like they're doing anything other than desperate, and mainly pathetic, face saving?

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Post by Guest on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 6:15 pm

seanmichaels wrote:I think curry houses are institutionally racist. I've never seen a single honkey working in one.
Is that a cross between a horse and a donkey...isn't it therefore a mule? In which case (cue drug smuggling related quip) there may be more than you realise.

Now cue cries of racism from outraged posters followed closely by me telling everyone to calm down as all I've done is tried and failed (again) to be witty

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 6:36 pm

Even for you Dave, that first paragraph was appalling...
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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 6:40 pm

I've been asked to wear body cameras when confronting protestors and have agreed - will arrive in a few days and will pass on my experience and how helpful they are. I think police should wear headcams instead - police perspective.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 6:40 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:I think curry houses are institutionally racist. I've never seen a single honkey working in one.
Is that a cross between a horse and a donkey...isn't it therefore a mule? In which case (cue drug smuggling related quip) there may be more than you realise.

Now cue cries of racism from outraged posters followed closely by me telling everyone to calm down as all I've done is tried and failed (again) to be witty

Allow me Dave:

Spoiler:

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Post by Guest on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 7:17 pm

kingraf wrote:Even for you Dave, that first paragraph was appalling...
As I said, it's nothing more than an attenpt to be witty as opposed to suggesting that some of the countries finest eateries are breeding grounds for criminals. Personally couldn't care less what you get up to in your spare time as long as my chicken pakoras are moist and succulent.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 8:09 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:The last article was removed, I assume, for the shameful allegations being levelled at the police such as evidence tampering, police corruption, corrupt juries, fixed crown court trials etc... All clearly absurd so let's steer clear of these baseless accusations on this one please.

you are so deluded if you think that is the reason the thread was closed.

The police officer who shot duggan lied in court that he 100% saw duggan holding a gun, he even described the gun in great detail about its appearance and testified in 2 different cases that he saw duggan holding a gun. He said that the reason he shot duggan was because he was scared of his life because duggan had a gun in his hand.

Witnesses have said duggan was not carrying a gun, forensic evidence has said duggan was not carrying a gun in his hand and even the jury said duggan was not carrying a gun in his hand when he was shot. The gun was found 20 feet away WRAPPED IN A SOCK. Therefore the officer lied that duggan was carrying a gun and therefore he lied that the reason he shot him was beccause he was fearful of his life being taken due to duggan holding a gun.


How an officer can describe a gun in such detail and say 100% duggan was carrying it when the gun was wrapped in a sock is beyond me.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 8:12 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Also, re the tough policing, I'd agree, except that it's tough policing inevitably hits communities hardest which already have a collective chip on their shoulder re heavy-handed policing and feeling targeted/oppressed.

Just look at stop and search.  It's been the cause of multiple riots over the last 50 yrs but the simple fact is, if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks.  Not an even spread across everyone just so one section of society doesn't get upset as this would make it pointless.

Because no one should be stopped and searched purely because of the colour of their skin.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 8:15 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:As per Rowley's request, I don't think this is the forum/thread to be discussing the outcome/determination of the case and its merits or otherwise.  Such a thread will likely be quickly shut-down as a continuation of the thread that was removed previously.

Let's focus on what can be done to improve policing and crime prevention in the UK whilst addressing community concerns.


Cameras are a good start, that way any complaints will be on video if they are legitimate or not.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 8:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 8:41 pm

Problem with the "Red socks blue hats" theory, or whatever it is, is that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. With Britain's crime stats, common sense indicates that even when 90% of all gun and knife crime are committed by blue people. 90% of blue people don't commit gun and knife crime. I don't have Britain's crime stats on me, but accounting for repeat offenders, I'd be surprised if "blue people" gun and knife criminals accounted for anything other than a minute fraction of it's general population.

Where you say - "90% of all x-crimes are caused by blue people, hence the majority of S&S are performed on blue people"

"blue people" see - A very minute minority of you commit X-crimes as a result we have to search a disproportionately large percentage of you"...
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:10 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

Well London isn't largely white. 55% of London's population are made up of non-white people, the so-called ethnic minorities, while only 10% are police officers. Having mostly white officers in a mostly non-white community causes tension.

Having said that, I agree with your last statement as well; the colour of someone's skin should not matter. Sadly, some non-white people love to pull the race card, not sure how many obviously but I would imagine it's a low minority. This makes the whole matter a great deal more complicated.

You therefore need more non-white officers to lower any possible racial tension. But then you would be attempting to beat the racists, who love to pull the race card, by being racist yourself.

Tricky one.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:22 pm

That statistic isn't correct. Something like 12% of people are black in London. It will take time before all groups are equally represented.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:43 pm

6 pm in London, my friends and I are looking for a Nandos (defeating the stereotype by eating grilled chicken, not fried)... "son where are you off to"? "Nandos, is there a problem?" "*that accent*, what you doing in this part of town?"

But sure the fact that this has happened to me in London everytime, but yeah - the color of my skin doesn't matter, and my negative experiences with English cops is nothing more than the race card
*Note, this surprising phenomena never happens when I'm in London with white people"....
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Post by The Fourth Lion on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 9:44 pm

Well, I never believed in tame "Support The Establishment At All Costs" threads.   This is supposed to be a site where freedom of speech is a given.  Merely giving lickspittle support to an organisation that has immense power, and uses it in conspicuously suspicious ways SHOULD be challenged.  

In general, I too support the rank and file police, but I believe that the culture of "drunk with power" runs more seriously within the system than we like to admit, and are able to effectively challenge.

I remember an incident from last year, I read in the paper that armed police shot dead an ‘aggressive’ cow in Grantham.  A part of me that should know better hoped it might have been Theresa May, but no such luck.

The animal had got out of its field,  wandered into a car park and simply stood there, mooing.  As cows do.

Apparently, this constituted a ‘crisis’ and the plods who arrived first on the scene responded by evacuating a nearby school and setting up an exclusion zone around the car park, before they whistled up a squad of police marksmen, armed with automatic rifles.  Helmand Province comes to rural Lincolnshire.

The armed response team then opened up with a volley of shots.  Three hits brought the poor, defenceless beast down.  I expect the gunmen were awarded medals for their bravery.  

The officer in charge of the operation made a press conference where he thanked the local community for their co-operation and understanding.  Whenever the police come out with rubbish like that, don’t you just know they’ve done something totally stupid and completely over the top.

Of course, there were alternative options available to them.  They could have used tranquiliser darts, or phoned the farmer and asked him to come and collect the animal.  But that wouldn’t have been as much fun, now would it..?  

There is a disturbing trend growing in the police, where their eagerness to resort to the use of lethal weaponry overrides common sense and the taking of a simpler, less bloody option.  Increasingly, in Britain, we should fear our armed police, not because they might catch us doing something wrong, but because rather than resort to arrest, they might just kill us without a second thought.

The problem with the Mark Duggan case is the sheer conspicuous, unbelievability of the police version of events.  Apparently, the bloke had a gun in a sock.  So, how did they know it was a gun.?  If we accept that they had "intelligence" that Mark Duggan had a gun-in-sock fetish, then how did some officers many yards away and with an obscured view, see him throw it away, making careful note of exactly where it landed so that they were able to walk right up to it, in an arrow straight line, without the need for any sort of a search, and find it immediately, while the officer who fired the shots, who was close enough to see that Duggan was "getting ready to pull the trigger" (presumably through the sock), but didn't see him throw it away before opening fire on an unarmed man.

Just one of many, many inconsistencies that make this verdict conspicuously unsafe.  The Duggan family have very strong grounds for appeal and, although I in no way condone crime, I do condemn injustice regardless of who it is in favour of or prejudiced against.  

Mark Duggan may have been an unsavoury individual.  He may have been a criminal.  He may have been many things.  But the police do NOT have the right to summarily execute ANYBODY.  And nor should they have.

We say that our armed police are highly trained and are subject to "rules of engagement".  Ahhhhh, ROE.   Well, I've served in combat in two wars and I know a thing or two about rules of engagement.  I know how flexible and open to interpretation they can be.  I also know how easy it is to make an outcome fit any version of events when the situation demands.

The Metropolitan Police have very liberal, and easy to manipulate ROE's.  All the officer has to say is that he genuinely believed there to be a threat and he is then fireproof.  This, and the opportunity to collude with colleagues when making statements and very easy going, non-probative questioning at the inquest, with complete anonymity guaranteed makes it a doddle.

It should be pointed out that in the entire history of the British police, not one police officer has ever been tried for unlawful killing with a firearm.  Not one.  Ever.  Think about that.

Now, I'm aware that some people reading this may be outraged that I am daring to accuse the police of being less than angelic.  They do a difficult job.  They put themselves in harms way on our behalf.  They are pushed to the limits of their patience and endurance by having to deal with the scum of the gutter......   Yep, we've heard all that before.   But they are given immense power.  They should accept the responsibility that does with it and not abuse those powers.

We have seen on the news tonight that the police officer who tried to pass himself off as a member of the public who "witnessed" the Plebgate scandal, has admitted he lied.   Quelle Horreur...!!   A policeman who lied..?  Surely not.  Policemen don't lie..

Tell that to the former chairman of the Conservative Party.  Tell that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes.  Tell that to the family of Stephen Lawrence.... or the family of Stefan Kiszko... or the Guildford Four.... or the Birmingham Six.   Shall I go on.?

And the police continue to lie after the event.  They try to cover their tracks with ever more elaborate lies which, even when uncovered and found out are then easily passed off as having been "mistakes made in the confusion of the moment".   The shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent man who was shot 11 times in the head, at point blank range (overkill or what) in a crowded train carriage full of witnesses, during a total police clusterf*ck of an operation that was staggering in its incompetence, as was the bungling way in which the police subsequently attempted to lie their way out of it.  And when a fortune was spent on an enquiry into it all, what was the outcome..?

The police officers involved walked away from it, without a stain on their character and completely anonymous. And even more incredibly, the officer in charge, Cressida Dick was not only promoted, but was also given a civil honour in the New Year Honours List..!!

What did that say to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes..?  How did that look around the world..?

We are right to question the police.  We should put them under ever increasing scrutiny because they - literally -  hold the power of life and death in their hands.   They have guns.  Real ones.  They can shoot you dead.  Really dead.  It's not a game and they are, time and again, being found wanting when it comes to the way in which they exercise this power, and yet, nothing is ever done.

Will these cameras that they will wear help..?  I'm not so sure.  I notice that they will be worn on the front of the body armour.  Spookily, they will be worn in a position where the lens could be obscured by the arm of an officer holding a rifle in the fire position.   The lens could be obscured at the "critical" moment and therefore be useless as evidence in an enquiry.  And who would benefit from that..?  Not the victim, that's for sure.   I ask again:  Why will these cameras  be worn in that position instead of on the helmet, as the army in Afghanistan do without any detriment.?

Many people on this thread have stated their support for the police, and that is fair enough.  We all want law and order and we all know that can only be maintained with an effective and publicly supported police service.   But I reckon those same people would whistle a different tune if it was their family burying a loved one who fell, the innocent victim of an armed officer who they learn will not even be named in court, let alone tried for what he did.  

They will whistle a different tune when they sit in an inquest, day after day, listening to the most conspicuously fragile defence given absolute credence, and obvious questions not asked so that an inevitable "lawful killing" verdict is reached. Oh yeah..... they'll whistle a different tune when it happens to them.

We have to be suspicious of the police at every turn, and we should be making life for them as uncomfortable as possible, not because we despise them and what they stand for, but because they cannot be trusted.

They cannot be trusted with guns.  They cannot be trusted with our safety.  They cannot be trusted to behave impartially or honestly.

And they can't be trusted to tell the truth.  

Just ask the Hillsborough families.
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Post by kingraf on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 10:06 pm

a man is nothing without his paranoia, 4L, especially regarding the popo
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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 11:03 pm

Most conspiracies are given credence because of unexplicable/suspicious behaviour by the participants when in fact the participant says something to shift the blame away from him onto someone or something else and not let anyone see them Frak up. Guy probably just bottled it and shot him and in the ensuing panic made up the story.

When I was a relief guard I went to a massive warehouse (with its own offices) to work for about 5 weeks starting one november, and despite some excellent metal detectors and other detecting equipment some important parts were going missing (worth about £650-950 to contractors and then about £2000 each wherever the contractors installed em. They changed the security guards (hence my posting there) and took numerous other precaution including hiring off duty police officers to check us and everyone we checked as well. In the end it was discovered that the guy who hired us and the police had been switching off the extension cord to which he had plugged in his heater and was also temporarily (due to repair works) being used to power the last metal detector at the goods in area as he left for the evening. Basically leaving the metal detector off for the last half-hour/hour of the day before we locked up. No, grand conspiracy, no great network working together to defraud the company of thousands. Just an idiot in charge and an opportune cleaner cost the company £390000.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 11:11 pm

Nobody expects a whiter than white police service. You're always going to get a bad apple. In this situation the jury were presented with all the facts and made their decisions accordingly.

What is continually being overlooked here is that a dangerous gangster had a gun. This is a very, very important fact. An illegal gun. Which kills. Nobody knew his intentions. But as a gangster of a violent street gang they may not have been pleasant.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 11:28 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Also, re the tough policing, I'd agree, except that it's tough policing inevitably hits communities hardest which already have a collective chip on their shoulder re heavy-handed policing and feeling targeted/oppressed.

Just look at stop and search.  It's been the cause of multiple riots over the last 50 yrs but the simple fact is, if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks.  Not an even spread across everyone just so one section of society doesn't get upset as this would make it pointless.

Because no one should be stopped and searched purely because of the colour of their skin.

How many 50 year old black barristers walking through the Inns at midday in their silks do you think are stopped and searched? How about black OAPs sat on the park bench after breakfast feeding the ducks? Black toddlers getting picked up after playschool?

S&S isn't based on 1 factor but a multitude of inter-related factors and environmental considerations which, hopefully, means it targets those most likely to commit certain crimes not be wasted just to pad out statistics. It's there to stop gun, knife and drug crime, not fraud or insider trading.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 12:24 am

I can't judge on police culture.  But I think it should be fair for policemen to admit to making an honest mistake without being punished and hounded by the media.  All the evidence they appeared to have was that Duggan was carrying a gun (and he was) ... any movement towards a police officer can be misconstrued ... carrying something in the hand can be misconstrued ... carrying a black object in the hand can be misconstrued ... we are talking about split second decisions here ... if it was me and I was legally empowered to disable what I perceived to be a real threat then I probably would have ended up doing the same.  Having cameras on board is probably not going to make the coppers life any more easier when they have rapid apparently life and death situations unfolding in front of them.  There is no time to think only time to act according to your training.  Personally I wouldn't want to scapegoat anyone especially those on the front line - as long as they are not complete loose cannons.  It's the system itself that needs examining - the whole policing in tight corner situations - but everyone has to be realistic in such situations - there is always going to be room for mistakes - but the mistakes are generally going to be expected so there has to be some leeway.

The footage of those two thugs that killed Soldier Rigby running towards the police was frightening - I am surprised they weren't shot dead.  One of the thugs was carrying a gun and could have killed an officer but I think he shot off target.  Everything happened so quickly.  We the armchair viewers get to see it over and over again in slow motion.   Not quite the same but I suppose it is a bit like football referees having to make quick decisions when the football fans sees it over and over again in slow motion and at different angles.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:53 am

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

the met police are for london and london is not largely white British. I think under 10% of met police are non-white whilst nearly 50% of london is non-white.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:08 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Also, re the tough policing, I'd agree, except that it's tough policing inevitably hits communities hardest which already have a collective chip on their shoulder re heavy-handed policing and feeling targeted/oppressed.

Just look at stop and search.  It's been the cause of multiple riots over the last 50 yrs but the simple fact is, if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks.  Not an even spread across everyone just so one section of society doesn't get upset as this would make it pointless.

Because no one should be stopped and searched purely because of the colour of their skin.

How many 50 year old black barristers walking through the Inns at midday in their silks do you think are stopped and searched? How about black OAPs sat on the park bench after breakfast feeding the ducks? Black toddlers getting picked up after playschool?

S&S isn't based on 1 factor but a multitude of inter-related factors and environmental considerations which, hopefully, means it targets those most likely to commit certain crimes not be wasted just to pad out statistics.  It's there to stop gun, knife and drug crime, not fraud or insider trading.

You are changing your view now......

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:11 am

tophat wrote: if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks

Why not all people wearing red hats? why blue people in red hats why not yellow people as well who are in red hats?

In essence you are saying if you are black and wear a hoody expect to be stopped but if you are white and wearing a hody don't expect to be stopped..... so you are saying people should be stopped purely because of the colour of their skin.


Last edited by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:13 am

Lumbering_Jack wrote:The last article was removed, I assume, for the shameful allegations being levelled at the police such as evidence tampering, police corruption,.

A police officer was found guilty of lying in a witness statement, lying in court and creating false evidence in the plebgate trial. It does happen.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 9:18 am

Lumbering_Jack wrote:The only issue I have with cameras is that a police officer will be more conscious of how they are acting in public, they will lose some of their uniqueness which perhaps made them a good officer. I personally have no issue with a copper telling a criminal they are a piece of Poopie, but I imagine if such footage were to find its way into the press then heads would have to roll.

.

Why should a police officer be aboove the law and able to insult people? I expect the police to act professionally and to refrain from swearing at people that they ar wanting to speak to/arrest.

The police's job is to uphold the law, not to break it by using aggrssive/intimidating language towards people.




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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:01 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

the met police are for london and london is not largely white British. I think under 10% of met police are non-white whilst nearly 50% of london is non-white.

According to the 2011 census 60% of Londoners are white, 13% black.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:03 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Also, re the tough policing, I'd agree, except that it's tough policing inevitably hits communities hardest which already have a collective chip on their shoulder re heavy-handed policing and feeling targeted/oppressed.

Just look at stop and search.  It's been the cause of multiple riots over the last 50 yrs but the simple fact is, if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks.  Not an even spread across everyone just so one section of society doesn't get upset as this would make it pointless.

Because no one should be stopped and searched purely because of the colour of their skin.

How many 50 year old black barristers walking through the Inns at midday in their silks do you think are stopped and searched? How about black OAPs sat on the park bench after breakfast feeding the ducks? Black toddlers getting picked up after playschool?

S&S isn't based on 1 factor but a multitude of inter-related factors and environmental considerations which, hopefully, means it targets those most likely to commit certain crimes not be wasted just to pad out statistics.  It's there to stop gun, knife and drug crime, not fraud or insider trading.

You are changing your view now......

No. I'm not, you're just being your usual obnoxious self.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:05 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
tophat wrote: if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks

Why not all people wearing red hats? why blue people in red hats why not yellow people as well who are in red hats?

In essence you are saying if you are black and wear a hoody expect to be stopped but if you are white and wearing a hody don't expect to be stopped..... so you are saying people should be stopped purely because of the colour of their skin.

So I list 3 factors/features are you conclude I'm only talking about 1?

I could've given a list of 10 features but didn't think anyone on this forum would need such a babying explanation.

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