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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Fri 10 Jan 2014, 11:11 am

First topic message reminder :

The last article was removed, I assume, for the shameful allegations being levelled at the police such as evidence tampering, police corruption, corrupt juries, fixed crown court trials etc... All clearly absurd so let's steer clear of these baseless accusations on this one please.

Rather than looking at the court case itself, how about we look at how things can be improved in the future. Is wearing a camera on duty for an armed officer helpful? Do they need to do more for community policing? What exactly should the role of the police be?

I can see the merits of a camera, but what a policeman see's during his split second in dealing with a dangerous situations, and what a camera records are two different things. The evidence here would need to be handled carefully.

For me the police need to get tough on gangs. The police in this country mother you, and if you so much as swear at someone they can report you for hurting their feelings. More of a no-nonsense approach is needed. Ultimately, criminals will never like police, so why should the police be nice to them.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 12:25 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

the met police are for london and london is not largely white British. I think under 10% of met police are non-white whilst nearly 50% of london is non-white.

According to the 2011 census 60% of Londoners are white, 13% black.

Well he got owned #sitdown
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Post by Duty281 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 12:54 pm

According to the Times on Thursday, 55% of London's population are comprised up of ethnic minorities.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:23 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

the met police are for london and london is not largely white British. I think under 10% of met police are non-white whilst nearly 50% of london is non-white.

According to the 2011 census 60% of Londoners are white, 13% black.

Well 60% is nearly 50% and there has been other research where the white population is even less in London.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:25 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
tophat wrote: if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks

Why not all people wearing red hats? why blue people in red hats why not yellow people as well who are in red hats?

In essence you are saying if you are black and wear a hoody expect to be stopped but if you are white and wearing a hody don't expect to be stopped..... so you are saying people should be stopped purely because of the colour of their skin.

So I list 3 factors/features are you conclude I'm only talking about 1?

I could've given a list of 10 features but didn't think anyone on this forum would need such a babying explanation.

but all of those factors depend on the person being black. You said if you are black and wear certain clothing etc highlighting that only black peple are affected hence why you are saying skin colour is the determining factor.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 1:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:According to the Times on Thursday, 55% of London's population are comprised up of ethnic minorities.
If you add all the illegal aliens then ... who knows.  A significant proportion of inner London has been sold to "foreigners".  But anyway this is partly a side issue - the real issues are community - police relationships around different parts of London, the ability of police to police in all parts of London (some areas are no go areas for police and there are "zones of silences" - where local communities won't talk to police about solving specific crimes), the confidence of certain communities with the police, and representation of local communities within the police force.  The police force themselves are at the mercy of political whim, facing mountains of targets and paperwork, plus cuts in expenditure.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:19 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
tophat wrote: if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks

Why not all people wearing red hats? why blue people in red hats why not yellow people as well who are in red hats?

In essence you are saying if you are black and wear a hoody expect to be stopped but if you are white and wearing a hody don't expect to be stopped..... so you are saying people should be stopped purely because of the colour of their skin.

So I list 3 factors/features are you conclude I'm only talking about 1?

I could've given a list of 10 features but didn't think anyone on this forum would need such a babying explanation.

but all of those factors depend on the person being black. You said if you are black and wear certain clothing etc highlighting that only black peple are affected hence why you are saying skin colour is the determining factor.

How do they? I have been stopped numerous times by the police I also have been pulled over when driving plenty of times. I am white. Im sure skin colour is a factor in polices decisions, but so are lots of things, age, clothing, sex, area, time of day etc. Is it annoying getting stopped by police? Yes but is no big deal really and doesnt usually take too long.
I would have more sympathy for the people that are criticising the police, if they were also criticising Mark Duggan and saying that he was a nasty Bar Steward and him getting shot probably stopped him using a gun against a black person.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
tophat wrote: if 90% of violent knife & gun crime is committed by blue people with red hats and pink socks then the majority of S&S's should be of blue people with red hats and pink socks

Why not all people wearing red hats? why blue people in red hats why not yellow people as well who are in red hats?

In essence you are saying if you are black and wear a hoody expect to be stopped but if you are white and wearing a hody don't expect to be stopped..... so you are saying people should be stopped purely because of the colour of their skin.

So I list 3 factors/features are you conclude I'm only talking about 1?

I could've given a list of 10 features but didn't think anyone on this forum would need such a babying explanation.

but all of those factors depend on the person being black. You said if you are black and wear certain clothing etc highlighting that only black peple are affected hence why you are saying skin colour is the determining factor.

How do they? I have been stopped numerous times by the police I also have been pulled over when driving plenty of times. I am white. Im sure skin colour is a factor in polices decisions, but so are lots of things, age, clothing, sex, area, time of day etc. Is it annoying getting stopped by police? Yes but is no big deal really and doesnt usually take too long.
I would have more sympathy for the people that are criticising the police, if they were also criticising Mark Duggan and saying that he was a nasty Bar Steward and him getting shot probably stopped him using a gun against a black person.

Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


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Post by kingjohn7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 3:07 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


Why not? If you are of the opinion that there should be zero stop and searches that fine. If however we are saying that stop and searches is part of policing then I dont see how this is a problem. Like people have said, being black isnt what gets people searched, its a combination of things.
If most crimes in Tottenham are done by black young males wearing hoodies late at night, then they are the ones that should be searched more often there. If most crimes done at a football match are done by fat middle aged white men with tattoos then they should be searched more often there. I dont see how this is controversial.
Mark Duggan was more of a danger to the black community than the police.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 4:35 pm

As a young black youth growing up in London I was stopped and searched countless times. The rate increased when I brought my first car, sometimes stopped twice on the same night. I used to drive a lot of my friends around to clubs etc and would get stopped because of it i guess.

Never been a criminal but knew about the gang culture. Its true some guys carry knives on them and conceal it and should be stopped. Guns are far less likely to be carried around. Black youths feel targeted but its something you need to be old enough to understand.

Anyone who was around in the 70's and 80's like I was will tell you how the police used to treat black youths. I have spoken to seasoned ex police officers who admit that blacks were give a very hard time by the police and a lot of the time for nothing. The mistrust took hold then and it has always lingered in the community.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 4:45 pm

I was stopped at least 20 times when I was a young lad driving my first car. This is nothing new.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 4:59 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I was stopped at least 20 times when I was a young lad driving my first car. This is nothing new.

Must have been your driving  Laugh  Laugh 

In fairness young first time drivers do get stopped more often but its really difficult to address the whole stop and search problem. I have always said that the family should be a main concern with the government. A stable family will help society many times over. All these policies they have yet nothing focused on maintaining the unity of family because some groups will deem it to be the workings of a nanny state so the government don;t get involved.

Many criminals come from broken homes its a fact. Too many young men having children with this or that girl making single parent families who can't control their youth who eventually join gangs.

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Post by kingraf on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 5:22 pm

I was stopped walking to Nandos, must admit, living in South Africa, I have no idea if London Nandos' are criminal criminal lairs and the cops were just (repeatedly) doing their job. Reading on through this thread, it seems it was actually my hoodie and fresh sneakers that arouse attention... not the fact that I'm black
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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 5:39 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


Why not? 

Because it is racist. I have argued against many people on this forum that certain events eg zimmerman trial, mass immigration holocaust denial were all not racist events but even I can see that if the police use the fact that someone is black as a justification for stopping and searching them then that is a racist policy.

If someone is acting suspiciously when the police drive by or they are in the area that a crime has been committed and fit the description etc then that can br grounds for stopping and searching them. But the colour of their skin is not a ground.


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Post by kingjohn7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:06 pm

Ok well no point in me carrying on if you completely ignore my whole point and just pick one small bit to disagree with. With regards to Kinrafs example, its not right that you were stopped( I actually disagree with the stop and search policy and think it is not a good tool), however if you were wearing a suit or were dressed like a yuppie it is highly unlikely that you would have been stopped. If you were dressed as you were but were white...I couldnt say but would agree you d be less likely to be stopped. However I have been stopped walking home from work doing nothing wrong or out of the ordinary and I am white.
I am sure there is racism in the police(as there is in every organisation and every community) but I dont think that using stereotypes to help with this policy is wrong or racist. More important IMO is how the officers treat/speak to the individual they are searching. It makes a massive difference if the officer is respectful or a Meat trombone soloist to how you feel about it.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:27 pm

Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:33 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:
Duty281 wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jan/10/stop-and-search-rethink-duggan-sadiq-khan

Well the Shadow Justice secretary, Sadiq Khan, has said that there should be an urgent rethink of stop and search. He's also mentioned the Met remaining "stubbornly white".

Whilst I do detest positive discrimination and political correctness, I do think that more non-white officers on the streets of London would only be a good thing as it might silence the calls that the Met is "institutionally racist."

We live in a largely white society, not sure what they expect. Positive discrimination is out there in all it's glory right now so unless we are suggesting the recruiters are racist (they could well be, who knows) then I'm not sure what else can be done.

People should respect the police, the colour of ones skin shouldn't matter.

the met police are for london and london is not largely white British. I think under 10% of met police are non-white whilst nearly 50% of london is non-white.

According to the 2011 census 60% of Londoners are white, 13% black.

Well 60% is nearly 50% and there has been other research where the white population is even less in London.

LOL laughing

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:40 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


Why not? 

Because it is racist. I have argued against many people on this forum that certain events eg zimmerman trial, mass immigration holocaust denial were all not racist events but even I can see that if the police use the fact that someone is black as a justification for stopping and searching them then that is a racist policy.

If someone is acting suspiciously when the police drive by  or they are in the area that a crime has been committed and fit the description etc then that can br grounds for stopping and searching them. But the colour of their skin is not a ground.


Pahaha the hypocrisy is astounding. You basically pick and choose when something's 'racist' or not depending how it suits the argument you want to make Laugh

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:44 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


Why not? 

Because it is racist. I have argued against many people on this forum that certain events eg zimmerman trial, mass immigration holocaust denial were all not racist events but even I can see that if the police use the fact that someone is black as a justification for stopping and searching them then that is a racist policy.

If someone is acting suspiciously when the police drive by  or they are in the area that a crime has been committed and fit the description etc then that can br grounds for stopping and searching them. But the colour of their skin is not a ground.


Pahaha the hypocrisy is astounding.  You basically pick and choose when something's 'racist' or not depending how it suits the argument you want to make Laugh

Or perhaps I look at the facts of each case and make an informed opinion. But saying that black people should be targeted more by the police because of the colour of their skin (which is what you said) is indeed very racist.

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Post by kingraf on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 6:46 pm

John - like I wrote earlier... The fact that 90% of all gun and knife offenders are one race doesn't mean that 90% of one race are gun and knife offenders. As such, it is very difficult to explain to that race why the fact that a very minute percentage of them are gun and knife offenders is cause for a disproportionately large amount of them to be searched.

You can look at it one of two ways, I think - 90% of gun criminals are black, hence they should be searched more than any other race...

or

> 1% (random amount) of the black population have gun convictions, therefore only one at least two hundred Black people should be searched.

If your archetypal offender is a black youth with a hoodie, then that's a lazy characterization. Because black people can't change their color, and London is cold. Telling a fifteen-year old public school kid "We wouldn't have stopped you if you were wearing a suit", is a defeatist strategy, as it indicates that this is self-fulfilling prophecy, and the only eventuality is cyclical
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:08 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Skin colour should never be a factor in stopping anyone. police should never think that there is a young man, wearing a hoody and he is black so that gives us ground to stop and search him.

The same can be seen in the reverse at sporting events where white people are stopped and searched the overwhelming majority of the time. Police should never think that there is a middle aged man, wearing a sporting t-shirt and he is white so that gives us grounds to stop and search him.


Why not? 

Because it is racist. I have argued against many people on this forum that certain events eg zimmerman trial, mass immigration holocaust denial were all not racist events but even I can see that if the police use the fact that someone is black as a justification for stopping and searching them then that is a racist policy.

If someone is acting suspiciously when the police drive by  or they are in the area that a crime has been committed and fit the description etc then that can br grounds for stopping and searching them. But the colour of their skin is not a ground.


Pahaha the hypocrisy is astounding.  You basically pick and choose when something's 'racist' or not depending how it suits the argument you want to make Laugh

Or perhaps I look at the facts of each case and make an informed opinion. But saying that black people should be targeted more by the police because of the colour of their skin (which is what you said) is indeed very racist.

quote me where i said that........?? laughing

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:13 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:I was stopped at least 20 times when I was a young lad driving my first car. This is nothing new.

Must have been your driving  Laugh  Laugh 

In fairness young first time drivers do get stopped more often but its really difficult to address the whole stop and search problem. I have always said that the family should be a main concern with the government. A stable family will help society many times over. All these policies they have yet nothing focused on maintaining the unity of family because some groups will deem it to be the workings of a nanny state so the government don;t get involved.

Many criminals come from broken homes its a fact. Too many young men having children with this or that girl making single parent families who can't control their youth who eventually join gangs.

Used to get stopped plenty of times by the police when at Uni. Wasn't because of my skin colour, but because I worked at bars/clubs on the weekend and would be driving home at 3am, usually with 2 or 3 other guys in the car. 3-4 young males in a car at 3am driving through/back from town after a fri/sat night fit the profile of likely miscreants, DD's in particular, so i got stopped. no harm in it, police doing their job correctly, never got a chip on my shoulder over it.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:16 pm

kingraf wrote:John  - like I wrote earlier... The fact that 90% of all gun and knife offenders are one race doesn't mean that 90% of one race are gun and knife offenders. As such, it is very difficult to explain to that race why the fact that a very minute percentage of them are gun and knife offenders is cause for a disproportionately large amount of them to be searched.

You can look at it one of two ways, I think - 90% of gun criminals are black, hence they should be searched more than any other race...

or

> 1% (random amount) of the black population have gun convictions, therefore only one at least two hundred Black people should be searched.

If your archetypal offender is a black youth with a hoodie, then that's a lazy characterization. Because black people can't change their color, and London is cold. Telling a fifteen-year old public school kid "We wouldn't have stopped you if you were wearing a suit", is a defeatist strategy, as it indicates that this is self-fulfilling prophecy, and the only eventuality is cyclical

I agree 100%.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:22 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:I was stopped at least 20 times when I was a young lad driving my first car. This is nothing new.

Must have been your driving  Laugh  Laugh 

In fairness young first time drivers do get stopped more often but its really difficult to address the whole stop and search problem. I have always said that the family should be a main concern with the government. A stable family will help society many times over. All these policies they have yet nothing focused on maintaining the unity of family because some groups will deem it to be the workings of a nanny state so the government don;t get involved.

Many criminals come from broken homes its a fact. Too many young men having children with this or that girl making single parent families who can't control their youth who eventually join gangs.

Used to get stopped plenty of times by the police when at Uni.  Wasn't because of my skin colour, but because I worked at bars/clubs on the weekend and would be driving home at 3am, usually with 2 or 3 other guys in the car. 3-4 young males in a car at 3am driving through/back from town after a fri/sat night fit the profile of likely miscreants, DD's in particular, so i got stopped.  no harm in it, police doing their job correctly, never got a chip on my shoulder over it.

Well you answered what I have said should be the reason for stop and search and that is suspicious behaviour based on actions rather than skin colour. You were stopped because you were driving around town with a packed car at 3am. You were not stopped because of the colour of your skin which is what happens a lot unfortunately.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:33 pm

I agree with most of what you say King, why I think it isnt a good policy. Its lazy and doubt it helps keep the streets safer.

However,
"1% (random amount) of the black population have gun convictions, therefore only one at least two hundred Black people should be searched"

It is random stop and search so you got to do much more than the stats. Plus its not just for guns.
Anyway guys have a good night, im off to the pub guinness 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 7:35 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:I agree with most of what you say King, why I think it isnt a good policy. Its lazy and doubt it helps keep the streets safer.

However,
"1% (random amount) of the black population have gun convictions, therefore only one at least two hundred Black people should be searched"

It is random stop and search so you got to do much more than the stats. Plus its not just for guns.  
Anyway guys have a good night, im off to the pub :guinness

Stop lying, we all know you are off to watch the Voice on BBC1  kiss 

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Post by kingraf on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 8:32 pm

"It is random stop and search so you got to do much more than the stats. Plus its not just for guns."

No such thing as random - human, nature ensures patterns, conscious or otherwise arise. Of course, they search for more than just guns, but as we were/are speaking about gun violence, I thought it superfluous to mention anything else.

At the end of the day, I'm not entirely outraged at the death of Duggan or its fall out, or at least not as upset as I found myself after the Zimmerman case... but the I'm not a fan of changing storylines, especially ones which seem progressively self-serving.
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Post by Duty281 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 9:25 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

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Post by westisbest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 10:21 pm

Saw his mother? on tv the other day saying that they(family) will not have any peace, until justice is done for Duggan's death.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 10:24 pm

westisbest wrote:Saw his mother? on tv the other day saying that they(family) will not have any peace, until justice is done for Duggan's death.

Ah right, thank you.  thumbsup 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 10:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:
westisbest wrote:Saw his mother? on tv the other day saying that they(family) will not have any peace, until justice is done for Duggan's death.

Ah right, thank you.  thumbsup 

Yep they explained the comment meant that they will have no peace.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 10:52 pm

Wasn't that the auntie?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 11:24 pm

Some of the police intelligence on Mark Duggan was graded E, the lowest on the scale the police use to grade accuracy.

It was, said the coroner, "certainly a very poor quality indeed" and DCI Foote told the inquest "I had no information on which I could have arrested Mark Duggan

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 11:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

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Post by Guest on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 11:52 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

So did Hitler and even David Cameron.....

Indeed. I'd quite happily put Duggan in the Hitler bracket.

Glad we agree CS.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 11 Jan 2014, 11:56 pm

FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

So did Hitler and even David Cameron.....

Indeed. I'd quite happily put Duggan in the Hitler bracket.

Glad we agree CS.

If you have duggan and hitler in the same bracket then you need to brush up on your history.

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 12:09 am

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

So did Hitler and even David Cameron.....

Indeed. I'd quite happily put Duggan in the Hitler bracket.

Glad we agree CS.

If you have duggan and hitler in the same bracket then you need to brush up on your history.

Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.

Lawful or unlawful it would have only ended two ways: Prison or death. He rolled his dice and lost.

I had a cousin that was a drug dealer. His mum (my aunt) cries over him every year. He once tried to sell me a sovereign ring that he stole from his next door neighbours house. Of course I declined but that never deterred him from trying again. Best place for him, the ground. He can harm no more.

But he was a lovely bloke and a great laugh..

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 12:17 am

FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

So did Hitler and even David Cameron.....

Indeed. I'd quite happily put Duggan in the Hitler bracket.

Glad we agree CS.

If you have duggan and hitler in the same bracket then you need to brush up on your history.

Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.

Lawful or unlawful it would have only ended two ways: Prison or death. He rolled his dice and lost.

I had a cousin that was a drug dealer. His mum (my aunt) cries over him every year. He once tried to sell me a sovereign ring that he stole from his next door neighbours house. Of course I declined but that never deterred him from trying again. Best place for him, the ground. He can harm no more.

But he was a lovely bloke and a great laugh..

What evidence do you have that duggan was a drug dealer? his only convicton was for possession of canabis for personal consumption....

All this police evidence that alledged loads of things was shown in the trial as lacking any substantial evidence, a police officer even admitted that there was no evidence for any of the allegations.

Please do tell me how you know he was a drug dealer when the police didn't have any evidence.

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 12:26 am

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
FreekShow wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:Whatever you think about Mark Duggan, 500 people attended a vigil for him today in Tottenham. That is a great response from the local community who came together to show their support for Mark who was a very well known and clearly a very well liked person in his community.

When those idiots who were at the vigil were banging on about "no justice, no peace", does that mean they're threatening violence and intimidation in the near-future? Or does "no peace" relate to something else?

Pablo Escobar had his admirers also. Millions in fact.

So did Hitler and even David Cameron.....

Indeed. I'd quite happily put Duggan in the Hitler bracket.

Glad we agree CS.

If you have duggan and hitler in the same bracket then you need to brush up on your history.

Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.

Lawful or unlawful it would have only ended two ways: Prison or death. He rolled his dice and lost.

I had a cousin that was a drug dealer. His mum (my aunt) cries over him every year. He once tried to sell me a sovereign ring that he stole from his next door neighbours house. Of course I declined but that never deterred him from trying again. Best place for him, the ground. He can harm no more.

But he was a lovely bloke and a great laugh..

What evidence do you have that duggan was a drug dealer? his only convicton was for possession of canabis for personal consumption....

All this police evidence that alledged loads of things was shown in the trial as lacking any substantial evidence, a police officer even admitted that there was no evidence for any of the allegations.

Please do tell me how you know he was a drug dealer when the police didn't have any evidence.

 Laugh 

Gullible much?

Everybody says that when caught. Come on CS, you're a smart cat. Must do better.


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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:04 am

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Nobody expects a whiter than white police service.

Actually, we do. And we should.

You're always going to get a bad apple.

What we have, in the Metropolitan Police, is an entire orchard that is rotten to the core

In this situation the jury were presented with all the facts and made their decisions accordingly.

See my comments below

What is continually being overlooked here is that a dangerous gangster had a gun.

Not at the time the officer opened fire, he didn't, if he ever had one at all (which is in doubt). How could he have been armed if, according to their evidence, he threw it away..? Even in the very, very worst case scenario, the police killed a man who had disarmed himself

This is a very, very important fact.

No, it is not a fact. It is a matter of dispute which the inquest did not resolve.


An illegal gun. Which kills.

All guns kill. That is the sole purpose for which they are manufactured. Including those held by the police.

Nobody knew his intentions.

On this, we can agree. As the inquest did not establish his intention, how could they say he had criminal intent..?

But as a gangster of a violent street gang they may not have been pleasant.

That sort of speculation would, quite rightly, be challenged by any defence and a fair, unbiased judge would uphold it.



I would disagree with your assertion, Jack, that the jury were presented with all the facts. From all reports, the jury most certainly were not presented with all the facts. The jury were presented with the police’s sanitised version of events, after all the officers concerned had been allowed to gather together and write their statements in conjunction with each other. It's quite scary how similar all the police statements were.

The evidence of the video taken by the tenant in the flat overlooking the incident, which showed quite clearly that nothing was thrown from the taxi was glossed over by the Coroner and made almost irrelevant.

The evidence of the witnesses in the street at the time, who said they saw nothing thrown from the taxi, and indeed, the evidence of the taxi driver himself who said he was looking around into the back of the cab and didn’t see Duggan holding anything was almost completely pooh-pooh’d. The only evidence that was given any credence was the police’s version of events.

The police have been able to give their version of events, virtually unquestioned, while any other evidence has been almost completely brushed aside.

No, Jack…. The jury were most certainly NOT presented with all the facts. At least, not fairly.

This is the Hillsborough inquest all over again.



Should the Duggan family be pursuing an appeal..? Damned right they should.

Now…. Before I am accused (again) of being a conspiracy theorist (I don’t mind. I’ve been called worse in my time) I will state that, personally, I couldn’t care less if Mark Duggan was guilty or innocent of anything that he was accused of. I have no interest whatsoever in portraying him as any sort of angel.

What I do care about is justice. Justice that is fair and impartial. Justice that is blind. He was denied that in conspicuously suspicious circumstances. The jury may be able to reasonably say that they did, indeed, reach their verdict on the basis of the evidence given. But the evidence was hugely stacked in the police’s favour. And that isn’t right.

You may consider that anything that takes the Mark Duggan’s out of this world is a good thing. You may believe that summary execution is acceptable. Well, that is a matter for you and your conscience. For me, I would rather that Duggan, and everybody like him had a fair trial and was either exonerated or convicted according to scrupulously conducted due process.

My conscience can live with that. Nothing less.

The police gunmen denied Mark Duggan the justice of a fair trial and in so doing, abrogated every principle upon which a police service that truly serves the community, is intended to uphold.
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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:09 am

FreekShow wrote:... Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.  ...
It is libel to accuse someone of an offence he hasn't been charged or convicted of.  Although because you haven't explicitly specified who you are labelling a drug peddler I think you would get away with a libel charge on this specific instance.

Anyway if by "Society is better off without that sort" - you mean better off as in shot dead ...  then are you saying all drug suppliers of class A drugs should be shot dead i.e. death penalty for class A drug sellers (cannabis is currently a class b drug upgraded from a c classification)?  To be fair to your suggestion - in some countries they do have a death penalty for those convicted of supplying class A drugs.

Anyway such discussion seems irrelevant to the Mark Duggan discussion?

[I feel care is needed as this thread is becoming borderline in terms of being pulled].

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:14 am

The Fourth Lion wrote:
Lumbering_Jack wrote:Nobody expects a whiter than white police service.  

Actually, we do.  And we should.

You're always going to get a bad apple.

What we have, in the ******* *********, is an entire orchard that is rotten to the core



Perfect - that is this thread pulled then?


Last edited by Nore Staat on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:16 am

[quote="Nore Staat"]
FreekShow wrote:... Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.  ...
It is libel to accuse someone of an offence he hasn't been charged or convicted of.  Although because you haven't explicitly specified who you are labelling a drug peddler I think you would get away with a libel charge on this specific instance.

Anyway if by "Society is better off without that sort" - you mean better off as in shot dead ...  then are you saying all drug suppliers of class A drugs   should be shot dead i.e. death penalty for class A drug sellers (cannabis is currently a class b drug upgraded from a c classification)?  To be fair to your suggestion - in some countries they do have a death penalty for those convicted of supplying class A drugs.

Anyway such discussion seems irrelevant to the Mark Duggan discussion?

[I feel care is needed as this thread is becoming borderline in terms of being pulled].[/quote]


And why would it be pulled...? Because the prevailing establishment view is being challenged...? Because those interested in justice are having their say and it is uncomfortable for those who would deny the right of free thought and speech..?

You could be right. This thread may, indeed, be pulled.

And what would that say about those who run this site..?

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:21 am

The Fourth Lion wrote: ....

And why would it be pulled...?   Because the prevailing establishment view is being challenged...?    Because those interested in justice are having their say and it is uncomfortable for those who would deny the right of free thought and speech..?

You could be right.  This thread may, indeed, be pulled.

And what would that say about those who run this site..?


People can't make unfounded accusations as that is libel.  You need to add things like "allegedly" or "it seems like" or "in my opinion".  You just can't make "assertions" that are unproven.  Anyway I am not a moderator - so I don't know what gets pulled or what doesn't.

ps it is happening on both sides of the argument - some are making assertions about Mark Duggan that are unproven while others are making assertions about the police that are unproven. There are some facts e.g. police statements that have been shown to be false ... but you can't prove that it was a "lie" as it could have been an "honest mistake" due to "not seeing things clearly".

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:31 am

Nore Staat wrote:
FreekShow wrote:... Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.  ...
It is libel to accuse someone of an offence he hasn't been charged or convicted of.  Although because you haven't explicitly specified who you are labelling a drug peddler I think you would get away with a libel charge on this specific instance.

Anyway if by "Society is better off without that sort" - you mean better off as in shot dead ...  then are you saying all drug suppliers of class A drugs   should be shot dead i.e. death penalty for class A drug sellers (cannabis is currently a class b drug upgraded from a c classification)?  To be fair to your suggestion - in some countries they do have a death penalty for those convicted of supplying class A drugs.

Anyway such discussion seems irrelevant to the Mark Duggan discussion?

[I feel care is needed as this thread is becoming borderline in terms of being pulled].

Yes. Stick a heroin filled needle into a loved one and witness the results. Wake up one morning only to find the contents of your living room ramsacked. I feel strongly about this and I apologise for that.

And yes suppliers of Class A drugs should be done away with.

Spend one evening with my auntie who still thinks her son was the best thing since sliced bread yet completely ignores his 15+ years of criminal activity to feed his habit and you'd get it.

I agree with them countries and their stance.

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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:38 am

FreekShow wrote:... Yes. Stick a heroin filled needle into a loved one and witness the results. Wake up one morning only to find the contents of your living room ramsacked. I feel strongly about this and I apologise for that.

And yes suppliers of Class A drugs should be done away with. ... I agree with them countries and their stance.
I think the opinion of those people personally affected by these types of things outweigh the opinions of "armchair philosophers" - so fair enough.  There is no need for apology but we all need to be careful of making unproven specific assertions (e.g. as regards Mark Duggan and as regards the police).

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:44 am

FreekShow wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:
FreekShow wrote:... Not really. A class A drug peddler deserves equal vilification.

Society is better off without that sort. Harsh but the law abiding majority would agree.  ...
It is libel to accuse someone of an offence he hasn't been charged or convicted of.  Although because you haven't explicitly specified who you are labelling a drug peddler I think you would get away with a libel charge on this specific instance.

Anyway if by "Society is better off without that sort" - you mean better off as in shot dead ...  then are you saying all drug suppliers of class A drugs   should be shot dead i.e. death penalty for class A drug sellers (cannabis is currently a class b drug upgraded from a c classification)?  To be fair to your suggestion - in some countries they do have a death penalty for those convicted of supplying class A drugs.

Anyway such discussion seems irrelevant to the Mark Duggan discussion?

[I feel care is needed as this thread is becoming borderline in terms of being pulled].

Yes. Stick a heroin filled needle into a loved one and witness the results. Wake up one morning only to find the contents of your living room ramsacked. I feel strongly about this and I apologise for that.

And yes suppliers of Class A drugs should be done away with.

Spend one evening with my auntie who still thinks her son was the best thing since sliced bread yet completely ignores his 15+ years of criminal activity to feed his habit and you'd get it.

I agree with them countries and their stance.



Are you a parent, Freek..?  From the tenor of your message, you aren't.  Or if you are, then you're still quite inexperienced and haven't got your head around it yet.  

Your aunt has done nothing more than show that which any parent would give.  Unconditional love.

When you have a child, than it really, truly, is the best thing ever.  And you devote your entire self to it, warts and all.

I have done my best to bring my kids up well, and thank goodness I have been luck in that they have turned out the way I wanted them to be.  I can honestly say without batting an eyelid, that there has never been a single minute of a single day when I did not love them.

Would I have felt the same way if they had turned out bad..?  I hope so.   I hope I would have cared enough to still love them no matter what they did.   In all probability, that is what your aunt is doing.  And I would support her to the hilt in that.   She is only giving a mother's love and nobody could criticise her for that.

Of course, sometimes, tough love is needed and for all we know, she may have tried to correct her son's behaviour.  I would also hope she had tried to do that.  But if she has tried and been unsuccessful in her attempts, she should still not withdraw her love and support for her son.

No matter what he does, he is, and always will be, her son.

That's what "unconditional love" means.
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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 1:59 am

Yes Lion. I have a son and daughter, 9 and 10 years old.

The first thing I have told my kids is to never, ever be bullies. I detest bullying.

They're too young to ever understand the significance of drugs and drug abuse but when they are they'll get that conversation.

My son or daughter ever strays into that world then we have a problem.

How will I deal with it? Dunno. Hopefully I won't have to answer that question.

That said I still think my cousin was a piece of sh!t and my aunt is a deluded ignorant old b!tch..


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Post by Guest on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 2:11 am

They're mixed race too which may be of interest to CS.

I'm white and she's black.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 2:20 am

Nore Staat wrote:
The Fourth Lion wrote: ....

And why would it be pulled...?   Because the prevailing establishment view is being challenged...?    Because those interested in justice are having their say and it is uncomfortable for those who would deny the right of free thought and speech..?

You could be right.  This thread may, indeed, be pulled.

And what would that say about those who run this site..?


People can't make unfounded accusations as that is libel.  You need to add things like "allegedly" or "it seems like" or "in my opinion".  You just can't make "assertions" that are unproven.  Anyway I am not a moderator - so I don't know what gets pulled or what doesn't.

ps it is happening on both sides of the argument - some are making assertions about Mark Duggan that are unproven while others are making assertions about the police that are unproven.  There are some facts e.g. police statements that have been shown to be false ... but you can't prove that it was a "lie" as it could have been an "honest mistake" due to "not seeing things clearly".



Ahhhh, the muddying of the waters. "Honest mistake". "not seeing things clearly". Britain's prisons are full of people who made "honest mistakes" or "didn't see things clearly". But it's a pretty safe bet that none of those people were ever armed police officers.

You are quite right, I cannot prove or disprove what was, or wasn't a lie in the case of Mark Duggan. With regard to allegations made in other posts on this thread, such as the Plebgate affair, I can say such things because (in that instance) the officer concerned has, himself, said he lied. Q.E.D. With relation to other things such as the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, those convictions were quashed after appeals revealed that the police fabricated evidence, so those instances are pretty safe too. Stefan Kiszko's conviction was posthumously overturned. I'll give you three guesses why. The original inquest verdict into the Hillsborough tragedy has also been overturned because.... guess what..... the police have been found to have lied.

Do I really need to put "allegedly" in front of statements about police dishonesty...? Nah.

If the Metropolitan Police want to sue me for libel, then let them. That would bring the Mark Duggan issue into the civil court and then they would have to give evidence on oath, in open court, and be identified in person. Do you think officer V57 or whatever he was called in the Duggan inquest would like to do that...? Especially if the Duggan family were sitting in the public gallery. Being named in open court would allow the press to report it on the front page of every newspaper in the country. Do you really think he would want that..?

Nah. Quite the opposite, methinks.

As for this thread, well, I have no control over what is done with it or not. But if it does get pulled then I have already had my say and made my opinions known. Those who wish to disagree with me are at liberty to do so. That is the purpose of discussion, and without dissent, there is no discussion. So I welcome disagreement and I view all points of view equally...... but at the same time, I feel free to challenge those arguments or put forward counter arguments as I see fit. I consider this to be my liberty as a free citizen.

To the moderators of this site I say: Do with this thread what you will. You either allow it to run it's course with vigorous discussion or you repress it and risk being accused accordingly. The choice is yours.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 12 Jan 2014, 2:30 am

FreekShow wrote:Yes Lion. I have a son and daughter, 9 and 10 years old.

The first thing I have told my kids is to never, ever be bullies. I detest bullying.

They're too young to ever understand the significance of drugs and drug abuse but when they are they'll get that conversation.

My son or daughter ever strays into that world then we have a problem.

How will I deal with it? Dunno. Hopefully I won't have to answer that question.

That said I still think my cousin was a piece of sh!t and my aunt is a deluded ignorant old b!tch..



I too hope your children never stray. I hope you never suffer that pain. It must be a terrible thing for any parent to endure.

The only advice this daft old sod would offer you, is to never turn your back on them under any circumstances. You'll end up hating yourself for it. Trust me.

You're right in what you say, that you cannot tell how things will transpire in the future. But then again, nobody in the history of the human race ever could. The rest of us who have gone before you seem to have gotten along, making mistakes along the way and putting them right as best we can. But nobody ever said being a parent was easy.

Drugs...? They're the least of your problems. Wait until your daughter starts dating. That's when your hair turns grey and falls out and you don't sleep at night. And hormones....? Don't even go there. One night she'll go to sleep as your little angel and in the morning she'll wake up as a hormone driven hellcat. With fingernails.

You have these delights to come. Good luck.
The Fourth Lion
The Fourth Lion

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Join date : 2013-10-27
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