Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level?

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Is Moyes a good enough Manager at the highest level?

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 23 Jan 2014, 1:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

Simple Poll question really. Yes or no answers.

Discuss why below


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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 12:58 pm

What sort of fan isnt vocal with there support.. That doesn't mean they think moyes is right for there club.


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:03 pm

Many. I mean quite notably supporting Moyes, not just supporting Manchester United

It means they're backing and supporting him, which is different to what happens at a lot of clubs through uncomfortable periods. Some remain quiet, sift out of games early, some boo, but they are doing very well to stand notably by him.


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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:05 pm

I dont understand that sort of fan.

I have allways cheered my team on whether I agree with certain decisions or not.

You have to give the playesr the support duing the game.

I dont mind it when fans hang about after the game (like cardiff did recently) and protest. But during the game - That is a no no for me.


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:11 pm

I'm not a boo-er particularly, but I do think if there is frustration to be vented then you do it at the end. Think both players and manager can deserve it in rare occasions. But never during a game, other than a quick swear.

But generally when unhappiness arises, the angry vocal will stand out or the lack of any noise. I respect the core fans at the ground at the moment who are with Moyes, its good to see long term thinking from the stands.

Who knows, it might not work out, but it wont be from the fans contributing to pressure

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:15 pm

check out this forum

http://community.manutd.com/forums/

that is the most popular one as well.. They cant stop talking about how much they want him out.


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Post by Trebs on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:30 pm

I work at Old Trafford and see them at every home game. And the majority of fans are in support of Moyes, he needs two seasons in the job for me. If, at the end of next season United are still struggling, then fine, get rid. But Moyes has inherited a team, had some bad injuries to key players (Carrick, Rooney, Van Persie, Fellaini) and has the last of Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs, Evra who will all need replacing. The likes of Jones, Cleverley, Smalling are all getting there, they really are but are not quite ready. In another couple of years I firmly believe they will be first team players and in the England team. He has made a start in doing what he wants by taking Fabio and Anderson out of the squad. Wait and see how things look in the summer. It's Ed Woodward who is the problem, not Moyes in the transfer market.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 1:33 pm

he also took zaha out of the squad who was man of the match v norwich,

Fabio by the way looked good as well..

yet he hasnt got rid of players like valenica, cleverly or young.

I am sorry there is something wrong.

And people keep blaming Woodward yet its pretty clear that he may have actually done ok with mata, =and its also clear that it wasnt Woodward that brought the 27m player fellani..

So we cannot put all the blame on Woodward and not Moyes.


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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 04 Feb 2014, 5:00 pm

Mysti please tell me you did not just write you thought Fabio looked good against us
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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 12:15 pm

yeah he looked ok, and he looked very good v palace (his only game for united this season)

I cant believe they have stuck with his brother for so long yet he has had shocking form and got rid of the better briother.

But that Moyes for you

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 12:35 pm

Rafael undoubtedly the better brother. This Moyes thing is getting ridiculous

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 12:41 pm

Rafael will be gone in the summer anyway.

Uniteds left side is shocking though and now they have no cover.. They didn't get Shaw or baines.


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 1:46 pm

Still got Buttner? Cant remember now

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Feb 2014, 4:12 pm

Fabio is awful
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Post by The Fourth Lion on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 6:28 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'm not a boo-er particularly, but I do think if there is frustration to be vented then you do it at the end. Think both players and manager can deserve it in rare occasions. But never during a game, other than a quick swear.

But generally when unhappiness arises, the angry vocal will stand out or the lack of any noise. I respect the core fans at the ground at the moment who are with Moyes, its good to see long term thinking from the stands.

Who knows, it might not work out, but it wont be from the fans contributing to pressure



Pressure is a very important aspect in all of this, and I think Man Utd fans are doing really well to support Moyse during this period.

He's got enough problems with a voracious media and all the vultures gleefully flapping their wings as they see Manchester United struggling in the league. There are a lot of people who have been waiting a long time for this to happen, and they're enjoying it.

But the United fans are closing ranks with the club. They are backing the man who was personally nominated by somebody who is a living deity at Old Trafford. They are trusting his (SAF's) judgement implicitly and I think that amongst them, there will have been much discussion in recent months, but what has come out of it is a collective decision to get behind Moyse and show solidarity.

At this time, nobody can tell one way or another whether Moyse will make it. I hope he does. He's a decent man and a talented manager, regardless of what anybody says. If it doesn't, well, I would hope that any parting of the ways doesn't turn acrimonious and bitter.

Manchester United's fans are showing admirable patience at this time and that is to their credit. Let's hope they don't show a nastier side if that patience isn't ultimately rewarded.

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Post by mystiroakey on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 10:05 am

4th they are not mate- the fans are turning.

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Post by Bianconeri on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 12:36 pm

The die hard fans do seem to be sticking to SAF's request and still getting behind Moyes.

But I bet the numbers are dwindling by the week

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:05 pm

Mysti, you are going on a cheap internet forum to gather that. We should all know that the forum, especially fan specific, doesnt represent the true loyals.

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Post by liverbnz on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:11 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Mysti, you are going on a cheap internet forum to gather that. We should all know that the forum, especially fan specific, doesnt represent the true loyals.

Who was that booing at FT on Sunday?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:13 pm

Depends on who you think they were booing. But I don't think the game has changed for the hardcore, especially the travelling support. Thats the area you cant lose, when the away lot go then your time is up

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Post by liverbnz on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:23 pm

The away support will always get behind the team regardless.
 
People have a right to really question him now. League Champions and spent 70m selling no one and has dropped to 7th out of the title race by Christmas and with very little hope of Champions League.
 
People keep talking about transition yet where is the transition at Chelsea, City, Napoli, Barca, Bayern, etc? All in and around where they were last year with new managers.
 
And Moyes has it lucky. Bar a few dissenting voices the British media are backing him. 'It the players fault.' The same title winning players (+70m of talent) Would they have backed a foriegn manager the same? Doubtful - even if he was proven. In fact, that would give them more ammunition if he was.
 
Plus, quotes like 'I don't know what we have to do to win' and questioning the mental toughness of his players in the media is not really clever is it? And he tried to claim there was plenty of variety in United's attack on Sunday - Other than crosses from the left and some from the right where was the variety? Very few clear cut chances created - just stick it in the mixer and hope - And against a 6ft7 defender (who compared it to playing conference football).
 
He's out of his depth, by a long way. He'll be gone in the summer. Shareholders will see to it.


Last edited by liverbnz on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Bianconeri on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:28 pm

I always thought Moyes was a bit lucky to get the job. It seemed like he was a no nonsense Scot, just like Ferguson and is therefore a like for like replacement.

But I don't ever remember Everton playing a 4-4-2 with proper wingers, that seemed to be the preferred way for Alex Ferguson. The styles were almost in complete contrast

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Post by liverbnz on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:30 pm

Ferguson hasn't played 442 since Yorke/Cole days.

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Post by Bianconeri on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:33 pm

You know what I mean though. With wingers like Valencia, Nani etc.

Moyes "wide" players at Everton always seemed to like being narrow and making them hard to break down.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:46 pm

It's getting worse week by week for Moyes.

Top 4 and any domestic trophies are out of reach - his one small slither of hope is the Champions League.

Liverpool did the impossible in 2005; Chelsea did the same in 2012 - can United in 2014?

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Post by socal1976 on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 11:32 pm

Duty281 wrote:It's getting worse week by week for Moyes.

Top 4 and any domestic trophies are out of reach - his one small slither of hope is the Champions League.

Liverpool did the impossible in 2005; Chelsea did the same in 2012 - can United in 2014?

No. I don't see anyone getting by Munich this year and Real Madrid look freaking ferocious scoring goals for fun. I don't see a darkhorse winner this year with how good the perennial super powers Munich and Madrid look. And if those guys don't do it chelsea, Man City, or Barca are the most likely to step into the breach.

United made a mistake not signing Jose if they had any chance. I dislike the man's style and demeanor but he is a perennial winner and has the CV to attract big stars and to whip any non hackers into shape.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:39 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Mysti, you are going on a cheap internet forum to gather that. We should all know that the forum, especially fan specific, doesnt represent the true loyals.

We all post on a forum - we are all loyal!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:40 am

Loyal fans go to the ground, the moment Moyes starts getting booed Mysti he has a problem until then the faithful have faith.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:43 am

So are you not loyal then?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:45 am

My opinion on a forum as a fan doesn't really matter Mysti, it's the fans in the ground who matter.

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Post by mystiroakey on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:47 am

yeah but many of us cant go games any more. we still count.

I do admit to the fact that the Ultras at palace are more important than me. They deserve that respect..

But the ultras are on another league compared to fans at other clubs.....  Run  Run  Run

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Post by Rowley on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 11:04 am

Have not read the rest of the thread so apologies if this is going over old ground. Would not want to write Moyes off yet. The argument that the same team who won the Premier last year are woefully under performing this year has some validity, but for me this is an over simplification. Man City did not really perform for Mancini last year and Chelsea were too far behind by the time Benitez took over to really put pressure on United. Think Fergie was also fortunate in getting the last scraps of brilliance out of the likes of Scholes and Ferdinand, great players Moyes has not had at his disposal this year.

Also think Moyes is reaping some of the problems that are out of his hands and have been either the fault of the Glazers or Fergie, depending on your stance. For many a year now United have under invested in the squad. Whilst City were out buying Aguerro Man Utd were buying Hernandez, whilst Chelsea were buying Hazard and Oscar United were buying Ashley Young. Perhaps inevitable that at some point this would start to catch up. However for all that one does have to ask if the effects of this under investment would have been quite so pronounced under Ferguson.

All of which leads to the question of if Moyes is blameless, for me he has made some errors. His transfer dealings in the summer seemed unfocussed and haphazard and to begin the new campaign without any new faces outside of Fellani, in a move which seemed motivated by panic does not bespeak a man who has transitioned into the big league with ease. Also tactically Moyes often looks devoid of ideas. Watched the game with Fulham at the weekend and for a side still possessing Van Persie, Rooney and Mata they looks woefully lacking in penetration or ideas how to break a pretty ordinary team down.

The jury is still out for me but have to say the post season is pretty important for Moyes, needs to show he can actually handle the transfer market at the top level with a lot more intelligence and needs to hit the ground running next year.

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Post by liverbnz on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 2:02 pm

Manchester United Variety in attack:

Counter attacking goals – 0 (Joint bottom)
Through balls per game – 1 (Joint bottom)
Crosses per game – 29 (Top)


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Post by GSC on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 2:07 pm

Impossible to say. Tough to expect him to compete at the highest level with a squad woefully short of that
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Post by liverbnz on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 2:38 pm

GSC wrote:Impossible to say. Tough to expect him to compete at the highest level with a squad woefully short of that
 
Woefully short? Champions with 89 points 9 months ago are woefully short?
 
The more times I hear the statement the more ridiculous it sounds.

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Post by GSC on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 2:44 pm

Champions of a urine poor league. RVP the standout player missing time this season. Players like Rio have finally fallen off.

Acting as if this squad is particularly good is the more ridiculous stance. United are painfully mediocre outside of Rooney and RVP, and now Mata. And Mata is blunted by playing wide with Rooney.
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Post by liverbnz on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 3:47 pm

The squad is good. Certainly better than 7th place. Painfully mediorce sides do not win league titles, no matter how 'urine-poor' the league is. A few of the teams at the top have improved this season but the rest of the league is still the same - full of garbage mostly - yet United can't seem to beat the garbage any more. Who's fault is that?
 
RVP and Rooney have played more time together this season than Suarez and Sturridge. City have missed Aguero for large parts. Chelsea have no striker worth talking about. Arsenal are missing their player of the season for over a 1/3 of it now. Everyone can point to excuses of one sort or another. Moyes seems to be oddly vindicated using his.
 
The excuses are beginning to get tedious. If I supported United I wouldn't want to hear them and I'm almost certain neither will the board.
 
He's underachieving - massively and he'll pay for it with his job.

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Post by compelling and rich on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 4:39 pm

not often i agree with scouse fans but i agree with liverbnz

far too many excuses knocking around for moyes, if fergie was still here would be 7th, thats clearly a no. if we got mourinho over moyes would we be 7th, again a clear no. if this had happened we wouldnt even be talking about our supposed weaknesses, were only doing that now because moyes cant get the same out of the players as other top class managers can.

i go games i while im not moyes biggest fan i will always back the team, and the fans have been fantastic. moyes may yet still do ok, with the financial backing of united he will hard pressed not to with a squad he could accumulate. but other managers could do it already with the team we have, let alone how they would kick on given the type of funds moyes will be getting

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Post by Guest on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 5:10 pm

Moyes has a loser's mentality at the minute..."We could do with a bit of luck" Sorry mate but you make you're own luck in this World and ultimately luck won't win you the title...it's hard work, hard work and more hard work.

91 crosses and only 18 landed on a team mate's head. At what point does the manager not demand a different approach with a bit more nous and guile being used by his players? It's almost laughable that a Manager with his experience hasn't seen that plan A isn't working.

Worse thing for Utd would be for them to seriously challenge for fourth place as it would merely serve to paper over the cracks. They need to have a full on collapse and see that the team needs rebuilding damn near from scratch.

What's more bemusing is that no-one seems to question the shower of sh!t Ferguson left behind and the fact that he's failed to invest in anything remotely approaching replacements for the players who are clearly on their way out. Not even he could have believed that Moyes was inheriting a good team.

Don't buy a house off Fergie will you, he'll probably leave the doors wide open and all the taps running.

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Post by socal1976 on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:03 pm

United are pretty much out of the champion's league race, is moyes done now? Do they give him one more season?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:13 pm

100% stays for the start of next season

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Post by Guest on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:18 pm

In Rafa Moyes we trust.

I think he will be given until the middle of next season. He has to get into the champions league next season (surely?).

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Post by socal1976 on Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:34 pm

I think he stays as well but if they have a bad start of next year I think he will be done.

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Post by compelling and rich on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 1:04 am

we need to be challenging for the title next season, dont have to win it but minimum requirement should be challenging for the title. top 4 should be a given for any manager worth his salt at united. he'd had a full year to settle in and probably well over 100 mil spent on bringing his own players in

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Post by Strongback on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 3:31 am

I can't see Utd letting Moyes go before the end of the season.

As a manager Moyes has never won anything and it now looks like his man management skills are being called into question.

Appointing Moyes was a risk. I can't imagine Mourinho would be doing as badly if Utd had given him the job last summer.

People talk about it taking Ferguson time but he was already a proven winner at Aberdeen, Moyes is not.

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Post by Guest on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 3:51 am

Before moving to Man Utd he was awarded an OBE for his Scottish & European success with Aberdeen, which included the Scottish Cup, the Scottish League, the European Cup Winners Cup (beating Bayern Munich & Real Madrid) & the European Super Cup when he defeated the European Champions over two legs.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 6:33 am

Nore Staat wrote:Before moving to Man Utd he was awarded an OBE for his Scottish & European success with Aberdeen, which included the Scottish Cup, the Scottish League, the European Cup Winners Cup (beating Bayern Munich & Real Madrid) & the European Super Cup when he defeated the European Champions over two legs.


Not to mention his brief foray into international management, with the Scottish national team at the 1986 FIFA World Cup.

Best not go there, eh..?
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Post by The Fourth Lion on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 6:47 am

Strongback wrote:I can't see Utd letting Moyes go before the end of the season.

As a manager Moyes has never won anything and it now looks like his man management skills are being called into question.

Appointing Moyes was a risk. I can't imagine Mourinho would be doing as badly if Utd had given him the job last summer.

People talk about it taking Ferguson time but he was already a proven winner at Aberdeen, Moyes is not.


I sometimes wonder about this "man management" thing in football.  What is it about footballers that gives the impression they seem to need a lot of mollycoddling before they can go out and effectively do the job they are so richly rewarded for..?

Certainly, Sralex was not above putting the boot in, as evidenced by Beckham's forehead, or of giving players the hairdryer treatment for which he became famous.  

I would say that Moyse's personal management skills are probably as good as anybody elses in the game.  Indeed, his players at Everton always appeared to be willing to run through brick walls for him, and Martinez hasn't complained about inheriting an unhappy dressing room.

The question then arises..... are the players not really trying..?

We all know that footballers are fireproof in the eyes of the fans.   As Gary Lineker once said  "I love being a footballer, especially because when I play badly, it's the manager who gets the blame."   A very astute observation.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a cabal of players at Old Trafford who have "nudge-nudge, wink-winked" amongst themselves not to play to the best of their ability for no other reason that they didn't like Moyse's appointment in the first place, but didn't have the cojones to speak out against the judgement of Darth Alex.   They don't like Moyse, they didn't want Moyse, and they know that no matter how badly they perform, nothing will stick to them.  He will take the fall.   They will allow matches to be lost and the fans will continue to laud them to the rafters.  Because that's what fans do.

Let's be honest.... we're talking about essentially the same team that won the Premier League last season by a distance.  I truly do not believe they become a rotten team overnight.   There has to be more to it than that.

You may call me a conspiracy theorist.... fair enough.  I have no evidence for my suspicion.  But if you just think it's a daft idea and that it couldn't happen, well, I've seen weirder.
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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 6:54 am

"The question then arises..... are the players not really trying..?"


if the players are not trying its down to the man manager.


"I would say that Moyse's personal management skills are probably as good as anybody elses in the game."


couldn't disagree more- as you also note your self above- you blame the players..You cant do that. Its allways the manager.


People forget what a manager is.. A manager is to Manage people. If you cant do that you are not a good manager.

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Post by mystiroakey on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 6:56 am

"It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a cabal of players at Old Trafford who have "nudge-nudge, wink-winked" amongst themselves not to play to the best of their ability for no other reason that they didn't like Moyse's appointment in the first place, but didn't have the cojones to speak out against the judgement of Darth Alex. "




 laughing  laughing  yeah lol players are playing rubbish on purpose before a world cup year


And lets be honest 4th- You are the sort of person that blames the player if fans throw stuff at him.

You just have this odd issue with footballers

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Post by Guest on Thu 13 Feb 2014, 10:00 am

So if Moyes has essentially inherited the same team Fergie won the title with last season but can't get anything approaching quality football out of them, then surely it must be that the fault lies with Moyes.

If players aren't pulling their weight, it's up to him to identify them, pull them into line or replace them with some who DOES want to wear the shirt...something Fergie had no qualms about.


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