Is Shivnarine Chanderpaul the Best Windies batsman ever?

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Post by kingraf on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 1:21 pm

So I was going through highlights of the latest Windies test capitulation. And I saw that six years on, Shiv Chanderpaul was still pulling off the cricketing equivalent of saving a baby from a burning car. It left me thinking... Yes Chanderpaul is now generally spoken of as the obdurate wall who stands between West Indies and general humiliation, but there was a time when hrs scored a seventy ball hundreds against quite possibly the greatest side of all time.

The West Indies have had a great conveyor belt of talent - and in terms of raw talent, Lara and Richards may just be the greatest ever... but neither of them were charged with rescuing, repeatedly a West Indian squad which at times post-Lara looked no better than a county team. In that time, Shiv has gone from a talented player, to quite possibly one of the greatest cricketers ever... and maybe even the greatest West Indian to ever pick up the bat. I'm a big fan in letting the overall stats of a player do the talking, but sometimes, justice must be done. In the 48 Tests played since the retirement of Lara, the West Indian top order has averaged 31... Chanderpaul? Well he's averaged the small matter of 70 runs. I understand that flair and flamboyance are almost always regarded as pre-requisites to any players greatness, but in my opinion Chanderpaul and his crabby ways have over the last six years eclir anything seen before him in West Indian cricket.
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Post by shivfan on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 2:55 pm

No comment....
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Post by msp83 on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 3:10 pm

Chanderpaul certainly is among the very best batsmen from the West Indies.

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Post by gboycottnut1 on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 4:20 pm

Certainly he can be considered one of the greatest West Indian batsmen ever, but there are also others (apart from Lara, Richards, Sobers, Greenidge, Lloyd,Headley). Laurence Rowe, Alvin Kallicharran, Collis King, Faoud Bacchus, Monty Lynch, Everton Mattis should also be considered.

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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 4:55 pm

I wouldn't say the greatest, however i would say he is certainly the most under-rated!

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Sun 26 Jan 2014, 10:13 pm

gboycottnut1 wrote: .... Monty Lynch, ....should also be considered.  
 Shocked Shocked I did see him play a few times for Surrey

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:25 am

well you've gotta bear in mind :
(1) the significant flattening of pitches in WI in his times...where like all other West Indians in contention for the greatest have played half their cricket.

(2)further worldwide flattening of pitches causing the averages of the modern day batters to be higher......

(3)and further cheap runs against BD and Zim being available to fatten the averages.

so you makes corrections for the above 3 factors then his 51.9 would look equivalent to about 44ish in my view in 1970s and 80s era.

that's still good and no one takes away his longevity.....a good batsman...not an all time great
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Post by Stella on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:21 am

NO

A very good gritty player but not even in the same post code as Lara, Sobers and Richards.
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Post by msp83 on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:32 am

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
gboycottnut1 wrote: .... Monty Lynch, ....should also be considered.  
 Shocked Shocked I did see him play a few times for Surrey
Corporal, I am shocked that you got shocked by the quoted post. We all know GBN likes to have a bit of fun every now and then. Just take it easy!.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:35 am

GBN's post though made me look at Faoud Bacchus's cricinfo profile. I'd read his name on a few scorecards but never really impressed me to have a look, but I did have a look after the post above and found that he averaged a mighty 26 after 19 tests, though he had a test highest of 250. Certainly has to be considered along with Chanderpaul, Richards and Lara!.

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Post by Stella on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:29 am

Larry Gomes? I know of one poster on here, who holds him in high regard.
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Post by kingraf on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:57 am

I understand why Shiv is primarily seen as merely a gritty player, but a seventy ball ton against quite possibly the greatest ever team in history shows that he did have the ability to turn it on, but a bit like Kallis during the early years, it's difficult to rollick along when you don't have a batting lineup to speak of, or holding, Marshall and Croft making scores of 180 look a long way off for the opposition.
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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 10:58 am

Stella wrote:Larry Gomes? I know of one poster on here, who holds him in high regard.

Don't think that even Guildford would argue that Gomes is the greatest West Indian batsman ever.

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Post by Stella on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:10 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Stella wrote:Larry Gomes? I know of one poster on here, who holds him in high regard.

Don't think that even Guildford would argue that Gomes is the greatest West Indian batsman ever.

I know, my post was in jest. The windies can boat the greatest 3-6 of any country, so gomes and indeed Chanderpaul fall a little short.
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Post by shivfan on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:30 am

KP_fan wrote:well you've gotta bear in  mind :
(1) the significant flattening of pitches in  WI in his times...where like all other West Indians in contention for the greatest have played half their cricket.

(2)further worldwide flattening of pitches causing the averages of the modern day batters to be higher......

(3)and further cheap runs against BD and Zim being available to fatten the averages.

so you makes corrections for the above 3 factors then his 51.9 would look equivalent to about 44ish in my view in 1970s and 80s era.

that's still good and no one takes away his longevity.....a good batsman...not an all time great

I agree with most of your points, but I disagree on the flattening of the pitches in the Caribbean.  The last time they were flat was when Windies beat England 1-0 years ago.  Since then, all pitches become spinning nightmares from Day Two.  You only have to look at the regional domestic four-day competition to see the plethora of three-day and two-day matches to see that Caribbean pitches are not roads any more...even Test matches very rarely end in a draw these days.

A WI all-time XI is very hard to pick, and something I would never try to pick, but I would put Shiv there.
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Post by Stella on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:42 am

shivfan wrote:
KP_fan wrote:well you've gotta bear in  mind :
(1) the significant flattening of pitches in  WI in his times...where like all other West Indians in contention for the greatest have played half their cricket.

(2)further worldwide flattening of pitches causing the averages of the modern day batters to be higher......

(3)and further cheap runs against BD and Zim being available to fatten the averages.

so you makes corrections for the above 3 factors then his 51.9 would look equivalent to about 44ish in my view in 1970s and 80s era.

that's still good and no one takes away his longevity.....a good batsman...not an all time great

I agree with most of your points, but I disagree on the flattening of the pitches in the Caribbean.  The last time they were flat was when Windies beat England 1-0 years ago.  Since then, all pitches become spinning nightmares from Day Two.  You only have to look at the regional domestic four-day competition to see the plethora of three-day and two-day matches to see that Caribbean pitches are not roads any more...even Test matches very rarely end in a draw these days.

A WI all-time XI is very hard to pick, and something I would never try to pick, but I would put Shiv there.
 Very Happy

Ahead of Richards, Lara, Headley, Sobers, Weekes?
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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:53 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Stella wrote:Larry Gomes? I know of one poster on here, who holds him in high regard.

Don't think that even Guildford would argue that Gomes is the greatest West Indian batsman ever.

Despite my attempts to stay swimmining in open water, I appear to have been dragged into KingRaf's net!  Wink 

Gomes was certainly not the greatest West Indian batsman ever. It is open to debate - and this may surprise some of you coming from me -whether he was even a great West Indian batsmen.

However, in a team of many all-time greats, he was an immensely valuable supporting player and that was perhaps more important.

Chanderpaul clearly has batting abilities and qualities (although I do recall Mike Selig referring to him as ''selfish'' which I hope he'll expand on in this thread). However, to suggest that Chanderpaul is the greatest ever West Indian batsman is palpable nonsense - sorry but it had to be said.

Chanderpaul would have struggled to get in the 1980s team when the top 6 comprised Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Gomes, Kallicharran and Lloyd. Probably some of you would have Gomes making way for Chanderpaul but not me - his worth has been proven along with his team commitment. Gomes actually adapted his own game and cut back his original free flowing but riskier style to earn him the tag of ''Mr Dependable''.

Gomes and the batting giants of the 1980s aside, would Chanderpaul really top such names as Headley, Weekes, Worrell, Walcott, Kanhai, Sobers and Lara? I don't believe so. He's undoubtedly above the 'D listers' that GeoffBoycottNut is so fond of but there are probably a few 'B listers' who cold give him a run for his money - Hunte, Nurse, Fredericks and Richardson off the top of my head.

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Post by atletico86 on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:34 pm

It is a bit daft calling him the greatest west indian batsman, but he certainly is arguably the most under-rated test batsman ever. I will never forget watching him in 2007 over in England, he was unbelievable.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 2:46 pm

msp83 wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
gboycottnut1 wrote: .... Monty Lynch, ....should also be considered.  
 Shocked Shocked I did see him play a few times for Surrey
Corporal, I am shocked that you got shocked by the quoted post. We all know GBN likes to have a bit of fun every now and then. Just take it easy!.
No problems.  I was undecided as between shocked smiley and the laughing like a drain smiley.  Laugh Laugh

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Post by Mike Selig on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 3:44 pm

Just dropping by very quickly. Apologise for recent sporadic presence, but as explained this ICC thing is taking up some time, and also starting to plan next season's coaching, so am pretty busy ATM.

I have commented in the past that I have found some of Chanderpaul's batting selfish. That is not meant entirely as a criticism, but there are a few times I can think of when he was batting with the tail and just nudged singles and exposed his partners. Such an approach is of course a double-edged sword, you often hear people go on about "trusting the tail-enders" and how that helps them, but for me when you're batting with 10 and 11 you have to be a bit more proactive and creative with your stroke-making.

With Chanderpaul you sometimes (perhaps wrongly) got the impression that when he'd stood at one end during yet another middle-order collapse and the tail was in, his attitude was a bit "oh well, nothing to be gained by having a go, I'll just take the not out". He could play the big shots, there were many ODI innings and early career test innings (there was an 80 ball ton against Australia around 96) which showed this. He could adapt his game therefore, and the inevitable conclusion is that sometimes he chose not to.

Perhaps it is unfair, but for me he'll always be in that good-to-very-good bracket (alongside maybe someone like Jayawardene) rather than great. I would also add his fielding failed to move on with the times.

Certainly I wouldn't have him in a West Indies all-time XI: a country which has produced batsmen of the calibre of Richards, Lara, Sobers, the 3 Ws, Kanhai, Constantine...
2nd XI possibly/probably?

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 4:31 pm

Thanks for that follow up, Mike.

I think Chanderpaul would probably be 3rd XI for me. That's still meant as pretty high praise although I'm sure not good enough for KingRaf!

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Post by kingraf on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 4:46 pm

Guildford - I'm actually not a huge Shiv fan, tbh. But I think he gets a raw deal. Statistically, there isn't much separating him and everyone put above him, and the fact that he's propping up a county quality squad puts him very close to the top for me. I love Lara, as I've explained many times, and talent-wise, it's quite obviously night and day between them, but I think Chanderpaul in his last 50-odd tests justifies the comparisons.
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Post by msp83 on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:27 pm

A guy averaging above 60 for well over 6 years has to count for something. And that too in a side like that of the West Indies of present.
As for his approach with the lower order. VVS Laxman used to irritate me with his attempts at making the lower order bat with responsibility. But it has worked more often than not, and VVS used greater discretion than what Chanders do at times as a general rule. I remember his match winning partnership with Ishant Shrama against the Australian. When Ishant had troubles with some of Australian bowlers, VVS took the strike against them and didn't expose the lower order player. But otherwise he took the single whenever it was available.
As kingraf hinted, Chanderpaul's go slow approach has also been influenced by the makeup of the batting lineup that he's part of.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:33 pm

Chanderpaul has been averaging 68.92 in his last 52 tests from May 2007 onwards!!.
That is just extraordinary.......

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Post by shivfan on Wed 29 Jan 2014, 10:44 am

Stella wrote:
shivfan wrote:
KP_fan wrote:well you've gotta bear in  mind :
(1) the significant flattening of pitches in  WI in his times...where like all other West Indians in contention for the greatest have played half their cricket.

(2)further worldwide flattening of pitches causing the averages of the modern day batters to be higher......

(3)and further cheap runs against BD and Zim being available to fatten the averages.

so you makes corrections for the above 3 factors then his 51.9 would look equivalent to about 44ish in my view in 1970s and 80s era.

that's still good and no one takes away his longevity.....a good batsman...not an all time great

I agree with most of your points, but I disagree on the flattening of the pitches in the Caribbean.  The last time they were flat was when Windies beat England 1-0 years ago.  Since then, all pitches become spinning nightmares from Day Two.  You only have to look at the regional domestic four-day competition to see the plethora of three-day and two-day matches to see that Caribbean pitches are not roads any more...even Test matches very rarely end in a draw these days.

A WI all-time XI is very hard to pick, and something I would never try to pick, but I would put Shiv there.
 Very Happy

Ahead of Richards, Lara, Headley, Sobers, Weekes?
do you seriously expect me to be unbiased on this issue?
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