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Post by JDizzle on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 12:39 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10609601/Andy-Flower-leaves-his-post-as-England-coach-after-disastrous-Ashes-tour-in-Australia.html

Apparently Flower has been told he is gone by Paul Downton. Announcement expected later today. Still unconfirmed at the moment though.

Edit: Being reported by most sources now. Seems fairly legit. Andy Flower will stand down later today after being given no choice by the ECB. Gutsy, gutsy call by Downton.

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Post by GSC on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 12:49 pm

Sad, obviously a world class coach but certain issues went ignored for too long. New coach for a new team then
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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 1:02 pm

Quite surprising, given the support he'd supposedly received and all the talk about not taking any decisions until a major debrief had taken place.

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Post by VTR on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 1:08 pm

I think it is time for him to go. He has achieved great things recent performances have been so poor that the coach is always going to be in line for the chop. Duncan Fletcher was the same, I'm sure supporters of other countries can name others.

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 1:12 pm

Telegraph claiming it as exclusive. Been picked up by the other papers and outlets from the DT.

Would be VERY surprising if a newspaper as established as the DT (whatever you make of their stances, they are a serious newspaper) went out on a limb like this if they weren't certain. Of course there are occasions of newspaper's exclusives turning out to be bunkum, but they are very few and far between. So it's almost certainly true.

I commented after the ashes series that it was clear England had become stuck in their ways and needed fresh ideas and a fresh approach. I went on to say that in my belief Andy Flower remained the best person to provide this approach, just. However I can totally understand the call by Downton (as JD says it is a gutsy gutsy move, but fair play).

I'm interested in who England have in mind as a replacement (it is very well to say as some did "Flower must go", but the reality is he should only go if the guy you are going to bring in is going to do better). I hope not Giles (aside from his ethics it's not as if England's ODI team is ripping up trees, or playing particularly inventive cricket). The rumours before the ashes series were that Flower would resign afterwards, and Giles, Stewart and Fraser were the 3 names most bandied about. How much the ashes campaign has changed that state of affairs I don't know. Or someone from abroad (again) - Jason Gillespie would be a dark horse in that case: done well with the youngsters at Yorkshire who have played pretty fearless cricket.

Another thing which interests me is where Flower goes from here. I can't see him coaching a county TBH. I think he might end up employed as some kind of consultant or involved in coach ed.

On a slightly unrelated note, I thought Broad captained well this evening, tried quite a few things which was good to see.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 1:22 pm

The right decision. Has done a wonderful job for the most part, but England have looked tired and weak for the last two years.

Hopefully, England can move forward again. Fresh start for a fresh summer. Bring it on!

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 1:25 pm

Mike
Seems to be pretty much confirmed. All the papers and SSN are reporting it as gospel, even though it hasn't been officially confirmed as far as I'm aware.
It's being reported that Downton met Flower on Thursday, so that was obviously the debrief, and that Flower will be offered a role at the ECB performance centre.
As for replacements, at least there isn't any great rush, given that Giles will be in charge for the early part of the summer.
Isn't Gary Kirsten available? Very Happy 

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:21 pm

I would like to see Alex Stewart given a crack.
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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I would like to see Alex Stewart given a crack.

With Angus Fraser as bowling coach and Graham Thorpe as batting coach?

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Post by msp83 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:42 pm

So England have got a quality new managing director. It was a tough, tough call to make for anyone, for someone new into the position, to make such a difficult call as your first in the job, takes some doing. I think it is pretty much the right call. Flower did indeed help England recover from the low point in 2008 and brought about an all-round improvement in all formats, But the last couple of years have been far too inconsistent, and England really got stuck by the end of it all.
Hope the ECB and Downton get it right with the new coach. I don't think Andy Flower by no means is irreplaceable, but I doubt whether Ashley Giles is the man. Giles will be taking charge at least for now, but what England really need is someone from outside the system. If Michael Vaughan is interested in the job, I think he'll be a good call.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:43 pm

I personally would've given him a shot in the summer to turn it round, but can understand why he has left/got the boot.

Been a very good coach for us, hopefully he can stay on in some sort of coaching role.

Any news on Gooch? Surely he must go too.

Giles taking over would probably mean Dernbach in the test side Wink
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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:49 pm

Olly wrote:

Giles taking over would probably mean Dernbach in the test side Wink

More likely to see Varun Chopra, Chris Woakes, Keith Barker and Rikki Clarke.  Very Happy 

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:18 pm

msp83 wrote:If Michael Vaughan is interested in the job, I think he'll be a good call.

Please no. He's never coached or managed a side as far as I know, and all he does from the commentary box is try and tell us how great he was. He's a bit like Warne, he could be great in a consultant/specialist role (although from where I'm standing he isn't half as knowledgeable as Warne), but in charge of the whole thing? No way... Being director of cricket/head coach is about so much more than having the odd good idea.

Equally I'm not sure Fraser is a bowling coach. He's more of a manager/director.

I'd keep on Saker as a bowling coach TBH. I'd like Ben Smith to take over the batting coach role rather than Thorpe.

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Post by B91212 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:27 pm

Regardless of if the KP ultimatum was true or not I think this is the correct decision from the ECB. Time for a change and hopefully a variation in tactics which have been too negative for a while. The grind 'em down thing works okay when the team is posting big totals but if that's not happening or the bowlers are not firing then it becomes ineffective and games can slip away quickly. Happy to acknowledge that Flower did a damn good job when you consider his entire stint and that he can't be blamed for players loosing form but as the team began to struggle he came across as either bloody minded or simply lacking in ideas on how to change things when the going got tougher. I do think Cook should continue as captain but worry that his default tactics will be to revert to a negative mindset.

England won't become a top team again overnight, we are going to have to be patient. Simple fact is that the current crop of players are probably not as good as the previous one. Still there is plenty of talent around, hopefully a new environment will help them to flourish.

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Post by B91212 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:30 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:If Michael Vaughan is interested in the job, I think he'll be a good call.

Please no. He's never coached or managed a side as far as I know.
Could be a Martin Johnson Mk II Doh

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Post by msp83 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:44 pm

Michael Vaughan could be a very good man manager. He showed that when he was skipper. He also was a positive thinking and aggressive captain as well. Seem to remember Mike himself suggesting that Flower was not much of a coach in terms of player's technique and stuff but he was more about the overall leadership....... From such a position, what England need now is some serious positive thinking, and good man management skills.
But none of it might matter for now, as Giles is set to take over at least in the short run. If the results in the WI ODIs and the World T-20 don't go England's way, that could change quickly though.

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Post by Hood83 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:55 pm

This reminds me of why I cannot stand 'Aggers'. He's been whingeing for ages about the England set-up being hard to talk to and a closed circle. It's not their job to make his life easier. All his comments on 'they have to talk to us' - no they don't, which is why he's been agitating and stirring the pot for so long.

Now he's making out that it was inevitable Flower or Cook would go. Perhaps, perhaps less so if commentators like him weren't constantly trying to sow seeds of dissent and disharmony. His comments on a bloated coaching staff is also just hopelessly outdated.

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 4:01 pm

msp83 wrote:Michael Vaughan could be a very good man manager. He showed that when he was skipper. He also was  a positive thinking and aggressive captain as well. Seem to remember Mike himself suggesting that Flower was not much of a coach in terms of player's technique and stuff but he was more about the overall leadership....... From such a position, what England need now is some serious positive thinking, and good man management skills.

Not sure about Vaughan's man-management skills to be honest.

Correct that Flower's position isn't (wasn't) about coaching per se, but it is about much more than just having the odd bright idea and thinking positively. You are basically in charge of the entire direction of the England team; you need vision, strategy, management of players and staff, ability to sell and promote your way of doing things, the drive to get the team (players and staff) working with you, etc. As you say it's about leadership as much as anything. Vaughan doesn't strike me as a leader (Fletcher seemed to be more "in charge" during their tenure together). He strikes me as an ideas man, someone to bounce things off, give feedback, come up with innovations. A bit like Warne. He could be a great assistant coach or something, but as the main man? I don't see it.

Mind you I'm not so keen on Giles either.

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Post by GSC on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 4:45 pm

I wouldn't be overly upset with Vaughan. A Gillespie type wouldnt be horrible either
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Post by gboycottnut1 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 5:28 pm

What about Bob Willis as Head Coach?

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Post by Guest on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 5:49 pm

Let's give xxx a go?  Or how about yyy?  Surely zzz can't be that bad?  Let's give them a year or so and if they can't turn it around then maybe vvv?


Oh dear ... how tried and tested was Andy Flower when he arrived to take over the England job.  He was on the whole very successful but a few overseas tours ended up being whitewashes.  I just hope there is a sufficient range of quality candidates to choose from.  I defer to Mike Selig as he seems to be the most knowledgeable on these boards.

Maybe Andy Flowers success was largely due to a good set of players to choose from?

Ps I would just like to note that England did win the ashes 6 months ago!! Headscratch 

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Post by gboycottnut1 on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 6:09 pm

Nore Staat wrote:Let's give xxx a go?  Or how about yyy?  Surely zzz can't be that bad?  Let's give them a year or so and if they can't turn it around then maybe vvv?


Oh dear ... how tried and tested was Andy Flower when he arrived to take over the England job.  He was on the whole very successful but a few overseas tours ended up being whitewashes.  I just hope there is a sufficient range of quality candidates to choose from.  I defer to Mike Selig as he seems to be the most knowledgeable on these boards.

Maybe Andy Flowers success was largely due to a good set of players to choose from?

Ps I would just like to note that England did win the ashes 6 months ago!! Headscratch 

Looks like England's cricket team are heading back to the dark days of the late 1990's!.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 7:18 pm

...and the genius who keeps picking Dernbach most likely to replace him.
Hoorah.

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Post by KP_fan on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:24 pm

Strauss Gone
Swann Gone
Trott gone ( unfortunate)
Flower gone
Prior Gone ( most likely)
Cook Hanging on ( at least as a player)

KP playing on Smile

Moral of the story: Good lasts till the end ....always
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Post by KP_fan on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:39 pm

ashley giles is reportedly the chosen one.

here is his most famous quote in recent times:

Kevin Pietersen's future - one of the most pressing - was not so much flat-batted as nudged around the corner, as Giles called him a "million-dollar asset" before scampering through to the other end, unscathed.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 9:28 pm

KP_fan wrote:Strauss Gone
Swann Gone
Trott gone ( unfortunate)
Flower gone
Prior Gone ( most likely)
Cook Hanging on ( at least as a player)

KP playing on Smile

Moral of the story: Good lasts till the end ....always

Or maybe people tend to retire roughly in age order unless there's a major problem
No coaching experience or managerial experience. Out if the game actively for a few years after captaining a side to their most famous victory in modern times.
It didnt work out there, it wouldn't here.

I don't really get giles either. He's too close personally to some players and has very little experience....and frankly hasn't done a great job so far aside from distancing himself from flower.

Can we not find someone with a track record of success?




Vaughan would be te equivelant of Martin Johnson as manager of the rugby team.

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Post by Mike Selig on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 11:01 pm

The rumour mill is now predictably in overdrive.

The consensus at the moment seems to be no obvious candidates apart from Giles. My take is that Giles was surely being groomed for the role, but given the circumstances in which Flower has eventually left, there will be a feel that he is a bit too much of the same.

Some names of IPL coaches being bandied about as well - the likes of Stephen Flemming and Tom Moody. Personally I can't see it - not enough experience of the England game, and they'd have to buy out their IPL contracts you'd think. Moody of course has international experience already, whilst Flemming would certainly bring a fresh approach you'd feel.

Kirsten is of course free, but I doubt he'll want the job at this juncture.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 11:18 pm

Mike Selig wrote:The rumour mill is now predictably in overdrive.

The consensus at the moment seems to be no obvious candidates apart from Giles. My take is that Giles was surely being groomed for the role, but given the circumstances in which Flower has eventually left, there will be a feel that he is a bit too much of the same.

Some names of IPL coaches being bandied about as well - the likes of Stephen Flemming and Tom Moody. Personally I can't see it - not enough experience of the England game, and they'd have to buy out their IPL contracts you'd think. Moody of course has international experience already, whilst Flemming would certainly bring a fresh approach you'd feel.

Kirsten is of course free, but I doubt he'll want the job at this juncture.

Mike - I wonder if experience of the England game is so important these days? I'm particularly thinking of the significance of central contracts and their value to England's management in having the players available to work with as required. Obviously the right players would need to be identified initially but I would have thought a decent scouting network and sensible use of the grapevine could cover that.

Btw, does your rumour mill tell you how much Cook has been involved in discussions to date? I can't see that Flower's departure will have done muuch for his peace of mind.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 11:24 pm

Mick Newell is, apparently, second favourite.
Potentially another Peter Moores, or a decent choice?

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Post by GSC on Fri 31 Jan 2014, 11:27 pm

Fleming has reasonable experience in England though nothing recent I suppose. Eh at Newell
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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 12:23 am

KP_fan wrote:Strauss Gone
Swann Gone
Trott gone ( unfortunate)
Flower gone
Prior Gone ( most likely)
Cook Hanging on ( at least as a player)

KP playing on Smile

Moral of the story: Good lasts till the end ....always

That's only the sub-text.... and it's almost irrelevant now.

As you can imagine, I'm rather impressed by Australia's total deconstruction (or demolition) of the England cricket team on all levels this summer.

Now the icing on the cake with Flower forced out of the system with a considerably damaged reputation. The scale of destruction doesn't get much bigger than this.

Considering this was achieved by a team which most people completely wrote off before even a ball was bowled is perhaps worth noting.

The moral of the story?

Beware... Australian cricket domination is almost impossible to stop once it gets going. It's still got some way to go though, imo.
They are also more fun to watch in my opinion. There's hardly ever a dull day - whether they are winning or losing.
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Post by JDizzle on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 12:43 am

Stephen Fleming is a very interesting name that has come forward. I would personally very much enjoy seeing him have a go; I'm in the dark about his experiences of coaching so far, but his captaincy ability suggests he has the tactical nous, and if the ECB think he has the organisational ability then I am all in favour. Jason Gillespie is my other preferred choice (if he wants it, understandable if he doens't) due mainly to the job he has done at Yorkshire, and the way he has got them playing their cricket as mentioned above. Plus, everytime I have heard him speak he has come across very, very well. Angus Fraser doesn't seem to be a favourite, but when I met him (name drop Wink ) he spoke very well and knows his cricket, would definitely not be displeased with him.

And LB, it took Australia a whole series to rid England of Flower. Mickey Arthur didn't even make it to test 1! Eng 1 Aus 0!  Very Happy 

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Post by alfie on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 12:58 am

Just popping in briefly for this ...

1. I am a bit sorry to see him leave as I rated him as a very good coach who might have reconstructed the team.
2. From news reports it seems the main factor was the decision to have one coach across all formats . A good idea in my view , but one that Flower didn't feel able to take on. Fair enough.
3. Bad timing for Giles as the limited overs team is having a rough patch  Smile  Still , depending on how quickly they want to appoint the new supremo , maybe he auditions for it in West Indies ?
4. Thank heavens this will stop KP_fan boring us all witless with his blaming of Flower for everything from the GFC to global warming...

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Post by KP_fan on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 1:39 am

excerpts from a good write-up on Flower's sacking:

But, just like politics, nearly all sporting careers end in failure. If they didn't, they wouldn't end. Flower is now discovering that, like Duncan Fletcher, cricket coaches have a shelf life. After a while, one voice and one message doesn't just reinforce, it limits and confines.

Flower was a breath of fresh air for England cricket. His prowess as a player, when he was once rated the best Test batsman in the world, and his track record as a man - his black armband demonstration in Zimbabwe marked him out as an individual of courage and honour - ensured he had the complete respect of his charges. It had not been the case for Moores.

And, in those first couple of years, Flower's attributes took England to new heights in their relatively modest history. Building on foundations set by Moores - it was, after all, Moores that backed Graeme Swann, James Anderson and Matt Prior - Flower embraced modern technology, greater emphasis on fitness, planning and an excuse-free culture that dragged England into the modern age. He demanded England improved. He stuck with players he rated and he instilled a hard, patient style of cricket that demanded much of his charges but fitted a relatively fresh team hungry for success.

But somewhere along the way, all those qualities that made him so ideal for that period in English cricket have become part of the problem. His determination became dogged. His loyalty became stubborn. The respect in which he was held veered towards fear. His tactics exhausted a four-man attack and batsmen relying more on concentration than flair. His intensity, his attention to detail and his demanding personality started to inhibit England.



Some members of the England set-up started to express concerns about the team environment long before the end of the Ashes tour, even as England were beating Australia 3-0 at home

It left them weary, tense, joyless and burdened with fear and pressure. The attention to detail that saw England produce an 80-page cookbook - fine in its own right - also saw them stop playing football or touch rugby in warm-up. There was too much science and not enough fun.

This news should not come as a surprise. Some members of the England set-up started to express concerns about the team environment long before the end of the Ashes tour. Indeed, some raised concerns even as England were winning the Ashes 3-0 at home.

History will remember Flower fondly, but England need refreshing. They need to rediscover their joy in playing the game. They need a change. Flower was the perfect man a few years ago but, given too much power and surrounded by several coaches who did little to lift the mood - Graham Gooch was the man who pushed David Gower out of international cricket, remember - the England environment simply stopped bringing the best out of players.

Instead it left several new faces - the likes of Simon Kerrigan and Boyd Rankin - obviously overawed and others - Jonathan Trott and even Alastair Cook - burned out.

Ashley Giles will be the overwhelming favourite to replace Flower, though advertising the appointment openly could do no harm. Giles might, in many ways, be seen as Flower-lite: he has a softer touch, a more flexible approach and presides over a less intense dressing room. It may be relevant that Giles also retains a close, respectful relationship with Kevin Pietersen, whose faith in Flower appeared to have diminished
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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 2:27 am

JDizzle wrote:Stephen Fleming is a very interesting name that has come forward. I would personally very much enjoy seeing him have a go; I'm in the dark about his experiences of coaching so far, but his captaincy ability suggests he has the tactical nous, and if the ECB think he has the organisational ability then I am all in favour. Jason Gillespie is my other preferred choice (if he wants it, understandable if he doens't) due mainly to the job he has done at Yorkshire, and the way he has got them playing their cricket as mentioned above. Plus, everytime I have heard him speak he has come across very, very well. Angus Fraser doesn't seem to be a favourite, but when I met him (name drop Wink) he spoke very well and knows his cricket, would definitely not be displeased with him.

And LB, it took Australia a whole series to rid England of Flower. Mickey Arthur didn't even make it to test 1! Eng 1 Aus 0!  Very Happy 

Quick work wasn't it?  Very Happy 

Mickey Arthur? He was of a similar style to Flower really. Not really what Australia needs (or needed at the time) as the results are now showing.
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Post by skyeman on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 5:43 am

A bit strange to me when a week or so back Flower was adamant that he wanted to stay on and was positive about the rebuilding of the team. Then he quits just like that after his meeting with Downton. Did Downton say KP was staying? Even with Flowers denials of saying KP or me, something not quite right.

Same with Swanns denials, i really think he was talking about KP with his head up butt quote.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:40 am

skyeman wrote:A bit strange to me when a week or so back Flower was adamant that he wanted to stay on and was positive about the rebuilding of the team. Then he quits just like that after his meeting with Downton. Did Downton say KP was staying? Even with Flowers denials of saying KP or me, something not quite right.


I think you are reading too much into it. I believe Downton has met and told him the ECB were strongly in favour (or unaminous) in wanting Flower sacked and that is how things stood and offered Flower the chance to walk first before he was sacked and this is what happened.
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Post by Guest on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 10:08 am

KP_fan wrote:excerpts from a good write-up on Flower's sacking:
... The respect in which he was held veered towards fear. His tactics exhausted a four-man attack and batsmen relying more on concentration than flair. His intensity, his attention to detail and his demanding personality started to inhibit England.

... It left them weary, tense, joyless and burdened with fear and pressure. The attention to detail that saw England produce an 80-page cookbook ...

... it left several new faces - the likes of Simon Kerrigan and Boyd Rankin - obviously overawed and others - Jonathan Trott and even Alastair Cook - burned out. ...

Maybe it was a classic case of power turning Andy Flower into a tyrant?


Thomas Jefferson wrote:Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny

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Post by Mike Selig on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 11:06 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:The rumour mill is now predictably in overdrive.

The consensus at the moment seems to be no obvious candidates apart from Giles. My take is that Giles was surely being groomed for the role, but given the circumstances in which Flower has eventually left, there will be a feel that he is a bit too much of the same.

Some names of IPL coaches being bandied about as well - the likes of Stephen Flemming and Tom Moody. Personally I can't see it - not enough experience of the England game, and they'd have to buy out their IPL contracts you'd think. Moody of course has international experience already, whilst Flemming would certainly bring a fresh approach you'd feel.

Kirsten is of course free, but I doubt he'll want the job at this juncture.

Mike - I wonder if experience of the England game is so important these days? I'm particularly thinking of the significance of central contracts and their value to England's management in having the players available to work with as required. Obviously the right players would need to be identified initially but I would have thought a decent scouting network and sensible use of the grapevine could cover that.

Btw, does your rumour mill tell you how much Cook has been involved in discussions to date? I can't see that Flower's departure will have done muuch for his peace of mind.

Perhaps you're right. I made the mistake of speaking more from personal experience, and undoubtedly at the levels I operate at, good knowledge of the home country game is highly desirable or possibly indispensable.

I was however talking more about knowledge of the England system overall (including, but not limited to things like type of pitches, player ethos at each county, training methods, coach education and priority targets, etc.) rather than just the player aspect exclusively.

The point I am trying (and possibly failing) to make is that the head coach of the England cricket team has influence and responsibility far exceeding the England cricket team itself. Aspects of the modus operandi of the England cricket team will be sought to be replicated elsewhere in the England (and wider European) game. England for example still leads the world in coach education, and some modern techniques (slow bouncer, taking the ball in front of the stumps to nominate but 2) have been developed by the England team and then spread around.

Now it is of course eminently possible for an outside coach to pick up on all these things, particularly if as seems to be rumoured Flower will remain involved in a consultancy role and pass on his knowledge.

It is also possible that England are seeking someone with an outside eye rather than from inside the system. Someone who can look critically at the whole thing and say "this is good, this we don't want, this can be improved on".

But it strikes me that on balance it would be preferable to have someone who has some knowledge of the system.

I am indebted to whoever pointed out that Flemming does have some experience having played a while for Nottinghamshire.

As for the BTW, the short answer is no. There is no real long answer beyond that I would be astonished if Flower hadn't let Cook (and possibly other senior players) know personally immediately after finding out his fate.

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Post by Sangakkara on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 11:35 am

How about Darren Lehmann? Smile

I think this the right decision for all involved. Cook should continue as captain, free from the restrictions of Flower's style of play. Let's see what HE wants to do! Let's see this year if he really is captain material or not.

I think Flower's assertion that he "saw this defeat coming last summer" was a subconscious, probably slip of the tongue admission that his time was up and he knew it.

As for why he was whistling a completely different tune when interviewed last week, I think it's probably a measure of the man's enduring professionalism and respect for the England team. The tour was still ongoing, and some positives could still potentially be taken away from it. Even though he is not the one-day cricket manager - he probably didn't want to unsettle the squad any further. Particularly after Trott, Finn and Swann. He's a top man!

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Post by msp83 on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 11:39 am

Flower is been offered a role where he would teach leadership skills to young cricketers. Well, interesting, that's all I can say. Remains to be seen whether he takes up the offer.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/current/story/714937.html

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 12:03 pm

Sangakkara wrote:

I think Flower's assertion that he "saw this defeat coming last summer" was a subconscious, probably slip of the tongue admission that his time was up and he knew it.



Hes been long complaining about the overload and tour schedule. Dont forget he gave up the limited overs job for that very reason. If he could forsee it would be too much stress for him its hardly surprising that he would forsee the same for his players. But he could hardly come out in public and say " we are going to get pooed on in Aus and its the boards fault" whilst employed could he.

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Post by JDizzle on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 1:21 pm

Without meaning to stray to far from the original point abou Flower, England Lions started their match against SL A this morning with some players having huge chances to put their hands up and demand selection for this summer.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/695963.html

Unfortunately, England were all out for 201 with Moeen Ali the only one to really trouble the scorers (53). However, we do have SL 92/4 in reply. Mark Wood of Durham has done most of the damage with 3-18 off 8. Chris Woakes has bowled tightly and has the other wicket, but Borthwick and MIlls have both gone round the park a bit.

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Post by Sangakkara on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 1:34 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Sangakkara wrote:

I think Flower's assertion that he "saw this defeat coming last summer" was a subconscious, probably slip of the tongue admission that his time was up and he knew it.



Hes been long complaining about the overload and tour schedule. Dont forget he gave up the limited overs job for that very reason. If he could forsee it would be too much stress for him its hardly surprising that he would forsee the same for his players. But he could hardly come out in public and say " we are going to get pooed on in Aus and its the boards fault" whilst employed could he.

Absolutely agree. I meant more that the lack of a response to that feeling that we were going to get a pasting set off alarm bells, for me. Of course I wouldn't expect him to say it BEFORE the tour. But... where was the contingency plan?

Thanks for the heads up JD. Shame to see Tymal getting hit around a bit. He has some big opportunities coming up and would love to see him make the most of them.

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Post by chrisss on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 2:37 pm

JDizzle wrote:Without meaning to stray to far from the original point abou Flower, England Lions started their match against SL A this morning with some players having huge chances to put their hands up and demand selection for this summer.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/695963.html

Unfortunately, England were all out for 201 with Moeen Ali the only one to really trouble the scorers (53). However, we do have SL 92/4 in reply. Mark Wood of Durham has done most of the damage with 3-18 off 8. Chris Woakes has bowled tightly and has the other wicket, but Borthwick and MIlls have both gone round the park a bit.

Is it not a bit strange that Moeen bats at 3 for Worcs and Taylor bats at 4 for Notts but for the Lions their positions were switched?

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 3:52 pm

chrisss wrote:
JDizzle wrote:Without meaning to stray to far from the original point abou Flower, England Lions started their match against SL A this morning with some players having huge chances to put their hands up and demand selection for this summer.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/695963.html

Unfortunately, England were all out for 201 with Moeen Ali the only one to really trouble the scorers (53). However, we do have SL 92/4 in reply. Mark Wood of Durham has done most of the damage with 3-18 off 8. Chris Woakes has bowled tightly and has the other wicket, but Borthwick and MIlls have both gone round the park a bit.

Is it not a bit strange that Moeen bats at 3 for Worcs and Taylor bats at 4 for Notts but for the Lions their positions were switched?

Possibly although I think there's merit in the old view of getting your best (non opener) batsman as high up the order as you can. I feel most of us would rate Taylor the superior batsman of the two. As flagged previously, whilst Moenn Ali scored a shedload of CC runs last season, he was facing Division Two bowlers whilst Taylor was up against those in the top league; there is certainly a difference in standards between the Divisions.

I'm not surprised by the initial results for Borthwick and Mills as I have doubts about them both. Mills to me resembles a runaway train, with dangerous speed but an overwhelming absence of control. That said, I have no issue with either being given the opportunity. If my doubts are shown to be ill founded, I accept they could turn out to be very valuable for England.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 5:16 pm

Mike Selig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Mike Selig wrote:The rumour mill is now predictably in overdrive.

The consensus at the moment seems to be no obvious candidates apart from Giles. My take is that Giles was surely being groomed for the role, but given the circumstances in which Flower has eventually left, there will be a feel that he is a bit too much of the same.

Some names of IPL coaches being bandied about as well - the likes of Stephen Flemming and Tom Moody. Personally I can't see it - not enough experience of the England game, and they'd have to buy out their IPL contracts you'd think. Moody of course has international experience already, whilst Flemming would certainly bring a fresh approach you'd feel.

Kirsten is of course free, but I doubt he'll want the job at this juncture.

Mike - I wonder if experience of the England game is so important these days? I'm particularly thinking of the significance of central contracts and their value to England's management in having the players available to work with as required. Obviously the right players would need to be identified initially but I would have thought a decent scouting network and sensible use of the grapevine could cover that.

Btw, does your rumour mill tell you how much Cook has been involved in discussions to date? I can't see that Flower's departure will have done muuch for his peace of mind.

Perhaps you're right. I made the mistake of speaking more from personal experience, and undoubtedly at the levels I operate at, good knowledge of the home country game is highly desirable or possibly indispensable.

I was however talking more about knowledge of the England system overall (including, but not limited to things like type of pitches, player ethos at each county, training methods, coach education and priority targets, etc.) rather than just the player aspect exclusively.

The point I am trying (and possibly failing) to make is that the head coach of the England cricket team has influence and responsibility far exceeding the England cricket team itself. Aspects of the modus operandi of the England cricket team will be sought to be replicated elsewhere in the England (and wider European) game. England for example still leads the world in coach education, and some modern techniques (slow bouncer, taking the ball in front of the stumps to nominate but 2) have been developed by the England team and then spread around.

Now it is of course eminently possible for an outside coach to pick up on all these things, particularly if as seems to be rumoured Flower will remain involved in a consultancy role and pass on his knowledge.

It is also possible that England are seeking someone with an outside eye rather than from inside the system. Someone who can look critically at the whole thing and say "this is good, this we don't want, this can be improved on".

But it strikes me that on balance it would be preferable to have someone who has some knowledge of the system.

I am indebted to whoever pointed out that Flemming does have some experience having played a while for Nottinghamshire.

As for the BTW, the short answer is no. There is no real long answer beyond that I would be astonished if Flower hadn't let Cook (and possibly other senior players) know personally immediately after finding out his fate.

Thanks for that comprehensive reply, Mike.

Whilst I can appreciate the potential benefits of Flower staying involved in a consultancy role to pass on his experience, I would add a cautionary note. From wide sporting examples of the past, it can be difficult for the former boss to relinquish control and for the club / team to get the balance right between the old and the new. After Sir Matt Busby retired as manager of Manchester United, successive managers during the 1970s struggled to assert themselves and their methods as not just the memory of Busby but the man himself continued to walk the corridors of Old Trafford. Possibly Moyes has a similar modern day issue. [I posted about this on the football thread and no one disagreed - ok, no one commented!  Wink ]

I've aleady read today Flower being quoted as saying, ''Following the recent very disappointing Ashes defeat it is clear to me that this is now time for England cricket, led by Alastair Cook, to rebuild with a new set of values and goals.'' Well meaning and supportive words, I'm sure. However, is it now for Flower - at least in public - to be saying who should be leading England? Surely that is something for Flower's replacement to determine.

As for my BTW, I was more wondering if Downton had first consulted Cook before determining Flower's fate. If Downton did and went against Cook's wishes, that doesn't say too much for the captain's current standing. If Cook wasn't consulted at all, even less.

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Post by msp83 on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 5:31 pm

Jason Gillespie has ruled himself out of the running for the England role.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/714965.html

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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 5:56 pm

msp83 wrote:Jason Gillespie has ruled himself out of the running for the England role.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/714965.html

Good.

I'd feel uneasy about having an ex-Australian player coaching England. Just doesn't seem right and it would devalue our rivalry.
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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 01 Feb 2014, 5:57 pm

Like the esteemed poster JDizzle, I rate Jason Gillespie highly.

Gillespie particularly impressed me when on the Sky evening panel reviewing each day's play during the recent Ashes series. Not only clear and sound views but also the self-confidence to readily admit when he didn't know something together with the desire to learn more himself.

I feel his attitude and approach are well illustrated by his comment in the cricinfo article, thus -
''I am learning a lot about coaching and people where I am now.''

Refreshing.

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