Why Ali vs Liston wasn't dodgy !!

Fighters have huge pride !!..........Bullies don't like it up them !!............Two statements that hold true.

Liston had a lot against him as Duran did against Leonard 2............Duran fought the perfect fight and won by one point in the 1st........In the second Leonard fought his fight..........Which was using his speed, demeaning Duran verbally and physically every chance he got.......and it was succesful...

Yes Duran was a guy that took his hits..........But it's different and hard on the ego when someone is humiliating you or If you perceive someone is humiliating you which was probably more like it...........Duran was also a bully who intimidated many fighters............He quit !!

Probably wished he hadn't a few minutes after.....But frustration and impotency was too much.......

Some could say Tyson quit when he bit Holyfield's ears...............A coward's way out............But it stopped him getting humiliated against a guy who chatted to him the whole time asking him "Is that all you have"......Tyson was a bully.........

I imagine the verbal tirade  Ali was giving Liston was ten times worse in their fight......Add the footwork and handspeed which made Liston look like an old man.........I imagine the embarrassment and frustration was of epic proportions.......When Ali was blind he was still impotent !!..

He QUIT !!.................Not about taking your hits..............It's about the ego being eroded and an escape route from humiliation.....

Second fight he was just plain scared.............and he went down the first available opportunity...........Not dodgy either.....

Just a bully being outed.................A proud bully........and a great heavy......

Nothing dodgy at all..

wasn't this debated only the other week? Also see below
https://www.606v2.com/t4684-the-so-called-phantom-punch-in-ali-liston-two

I actually think the anchor punch was a nice punch, don't need to have a lot of backlift to make damage, side of the head above the ear, that's where the blood vessels push the blood back up towards the brain when impacted.Goodnight Vienna.

I think the punch landed there... I could be wrong...

It was debated yesterday......Before it was took off..........

There are only so many subjects that like Mayweather articles...and Froch articles they get debated again..

Be sure to dig up other threads when someone else posts a duplicate.....

The punch did land........Liston bottled it like Walcott - Rocky 2....and looked for a way out.

I like this topic as it is one of those unsolveable posers ...like the Long Count...compelling cases for and against a dive...
Foreman was there and said that the hall was half empty,ie the mob dictated the result and people stayed away knowing that it would be a stinker.Foreman believed that Sonny was embittered because he received no credit or praise as a champ and had pretty much given up on the sport.
Other factors to take into account are Sonny's age and the delay to the fight adding to Sonny decelerating from a hungry fighter to an old fighter...we may have seen Froch do the same thing recently...

Larry Merchant was there that night in the second fight.

He claims it was a legit punch but Liston was in no shape to chase the young, quick Clay all over the ring and basically wanted out. He had a few problems leading up to the fight but the truth is there was nothing dodgy where Ali was concerned but Liston lets say did not turn up and never intended to.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Larry Merchant was there that night in the second fight.

He claims it was a legit punch but Liston was in no shape to chase the young, quick Clay all over the ring and basically wanted out. He had a few problems leading up to the fight but the truth is there was nothing dodgy where Ali was concerned but Liston lets say did not turn up and never intended to.

I think he didn't train because he knew he was going to lose...64 -67 Ali... is the greatest heavy of alltime by a mile...

Liston saw why.......and quit twice..Nothing dodgy..

Didn't like it up him...

cheers.

Have you seen the Williams fight Truss, watch that and tell me Liston quit when the going got tough, he was frustrated in the first fight nothing to do with not having heart.

Have you read my thread Mate...I never said he quit because of pain.........

Embarrassment and frustration..Mental disintegration

Plus he didn't like it up him...........Tyson vs Holy 2.........

Tyson took his punishment against Lewis though.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Larry Merchant was there that night in the second fight.

He claims it was a legit punch but Liston was in no shape to chase the young, quick Clay all over the ring and basically wanted out. He had a few problems leading up to the fight but the truth is there was nothing dodgy where Ali was concerned but Liston lets say did not turn up and never intended to.

I think he didn't train because he knew he was going to lose...64 -67 Ali... is the greatest heavy of alltime by a mile...

Liston saw why.......and quit twice..Nothing dodgy..

Didn't like it up him...

cheers.

I'm not sure about this but didn't liston supposedly get into the best shape of his life then ali got injured and they had to delay the fight - then after that he couldn't be arsed/didn't have the motivation? I'm sure I read that somewhere

Two very different things, Liston like Duran and Tyson had no problems with taking a beating or losing, they could all get frustrated and make spur of the moment decisions. They all at one point or another decided they couldn't be bothered and it always happened in fights where they took less punishment than had or would go on to receive.

There was a venue change wasn't there.........It was scheduled for 64..and ended up in 65..

The video I saw... one of the then-journalists said he looked so bad he couldn't even skip rope...

Apparently someone also said Liston was scared of crazy people...........and he thought Ali was crazy...

But maybe he was in great shape first time up.. who knows............Not sure he "believed" though..If you know what I mean...

Think the best guy won..........and history has proven that..

Thanks for the contributions though..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Two very different things, Liston like Duran and Tyson had no problems with taking a beating or losing, they could all get frustrated and make spur of the moment decisions. They all at one point or another decided they couldn't be bothered and it always happened in fights where they took less punishment than had or would go on to receive.

You are agreeing with me then............I said he quit out of frustration and embarassment.........Or perceived embarasssment..

You then keep saying he didn't like it up him which isn't true.

ShahenshahG wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Larry Merchant was there that night in the second fight.

He claims it was a legit punch but Liston was in no shape to chase the young, quick Clay all over the ring and basically wanted out. He had a few problems leading up to the fight but the truth is there was nothing dodgy where Ali was concerned but Liston lets say did not turn up and never intended to.

I think he didn't train because he knew he was going to lose...64 -67 Ali... is the greatest heavy of alltime by a mile...

Liston saw why.......and quit twice..Nothing dodgy..

Didn't like it up him...

cheers.

I'm not sure about this but didn't liston supposedly get into the best shape of his life then ali got injured and they had to delay the fight - then after that he couldn't be arsed/didn't have the motivation? I'm sure I read that somewhere

Yes it was in my previous thread.

I think I read it in a liston biography

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:There was a venue change wasn't there.........It was scheduled for 64..and ended up in 65..

The video I saw... one of the then-journalists said he looked so bad he couldn't even skip rope...

Apparently someone also said Liston was scared of crazy people...........and he thought Ali was crazy...

But maybe he was in great shape first time up.. who knows............Not sure he "believed" though..If you know what I mean...

Think the best guy won..........and history has proven that..

Thanks for the contributions though..

Quite true, his time in prison drilled this insecurity into him,and he truly believed the young kid was crazy.I think Ali's stunts such as visiting him in training and yelling that he was a big ugly bear, totally spun him out.

ShahenshahG wrote:I think I read it in a liston biography

Never been too proud to beg

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You then keep saying he didn't like it up him which isn't true.

No that's right ..............he liked it up him..