Do i reallly need to say sorry?

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Do i reallly need to say sorry? Empty Do i reallly need to say sorry?

Post by VDT on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:24 pm

Andy is by the office biscuit tin which contains Chocolate Fingers, he shouts across the office "Lynda do you want a finger?"

Me and the lad opposite start giggling - Childish i know - then the whole office starts laughing

Lynda ran to the kitchen crying, Andy and our boss (who a lady) go after her! Lynda goes home coz she feels so humiliated

My boss know wants me and the lad opposite to say sorry to her on Monday!

Am i alone in thinking, i don't need to say and she should be so bloody sensitive?
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:33 pm

Tricky one. Yes, sounds like she was being too sensitive, but I do feel we sometimes have to take people's sensitive nature into account, rather than dismiss it. If she's upset, and an apology will make her feel a bit better, it's probably not too much to ask.
Problem is, after the weekend she might just want to forget it, not be reminded of it a few days later, especially if the office ends up watching the apology. A short e-mail would at least keep it private. Suggest that to your boss - it will show you've given the matter some thought.

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Post by Guest on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:34 pm

Yes, you say "Lynda, I'm sorry about last week. I massively over-estimated how funny I think I am and I hope you'll find it in you (snigger) to forgive me!"

You look like the bigger person and the ball is in her court. If she wants to take it further she has to tell your boss that you've apologized for upsetting her and she wants you sacking. At this point, your boss realizes that she's emotionally unstable (something he should have realized when he saw she was a woman) and sacks her on the spot instead.

You rid the office of a killjoy and it's more biscuits for everyone else.

However, don't lose sight of the fact that you should apologise...however if she wants to try and make you look a complete ____ in front of everyone, tell her to stick it up her hole and she's lucky it wasn't a Hobnob you were offering. If she wants to take it further, offer her out into the car park

However, don't lose sight of the fact that you should apologise.....

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Post by Guest on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:37 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Tricky one. Yes, sounds like she was being too sensitive, but I do feel we sometimes have to take people's sensitive nature into account, rather than dismiss it. If she's upset, and an apology will make her feel a bit better, it's probably not too much to ask.
Problem is, after the weekend she might just want to forget it, not be reminded of it a few days later, especially if the office ends up watching the apology. A short e-mail would at least keep it private. Suggest that to your boss - it will show you've given the matter some thought.
A short email may also be used by her at a later disciplinary hearing to prove that you've insulted her and are now bullying her into accepting an apology.

Make her a cup of tea and as you put it on her desk just say, "Sorry I was an idiot last week!" and then walk back to you desk. However if she wants to carry the argument on, run back over, throw the drink in her face and hit her repeatedly with the computer keyboard whilst screaming "You stupid selfish ungrateful b!tch!" at the top of your voice

or don't...it's up to you

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:41 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Tricky one. Yes, sounds like she was being too sensitive, but I do feel we sometimes have to take people's sensitive nature into account, rather than dismiss it. If she's upset, and an apology will make her feel a bit better, it's probably not too much to ask.
Problem is, after the weekend she might just want to forget it, not be reminded of it a few days later, especially if the office ends up watching the apology. A short e-mail would at least keep it private. Suggest that to your boss - it will show you've given the matter some thought.
A short email may also be used by her at a later disciplinary hearing to prove that you've insulted her and are now bullying her into accepting an apology.


100%

Keep it verbal and off the record.

She's being a stupid over-sensitive bitch, you can't say that but just be diplomatic and get on with life.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:43 pm

No you bloody well shouldn't apologise.

She should grow a thicker skin.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 4:48 pm

You should apologise and then tell a racist joke to show her that you didn't single her out for abuse.

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Post by VDT on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 5:00 pm

Pity i can't say "i'm sorry you thought i was laughing you"
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 5:01 pm

I say make more inappropriate sexual jokes about her

Lynda's obviously been fingered by Andy a few times also
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Post by VDT on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 5:34 pm

It wasn't even a joke - Andy who 20ish quite innocently ask Lynda who well in her 40's if she wanted a chocolate finger - it was just the way he ask her - if anything I think should say sorry to Andy for making him look stupid!
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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 5:46 pm

It sounds quite vulgar taken out of context and maybe she's embarrased at overreacting initially.

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Post by Ent on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 6:09 pm

You can't have much work to be doing if people have time to be offended and go home over things like this.

I'd just ignore it.

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Post by Hibbz on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 6:51 pm

How can you not be expected to find that funny? Is she fat?

Maybe you should ask if she would prefer two fingers.

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Post by Steffan on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 8:48 pm

She sounds mental. Dont apologise and casually tell your female boss your had a few beers in the weekend with your friend and solicitor who was buying the drinks as he had made a shed load defending William Roach in the high profile case this week who said that there are no winners in women making stupid accusations

That ought to pipe them down. If you dont apologise its hardy sackable ground anyway. Prehaps she will apologise to you for being a tool

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Post by Guest on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 9:23 pm

I packed a Fudge for lunch today but enough about Duty's training day.

I wouldn't even consider saying sorry.

I don't complain when Olly offers me his tip every week.  Very Happy 




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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 9:39 pm

Too damn right Freeky
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 9:56 pm

FreekShow wrote:I packed a Fudge for lunch today but enough about Duty's training day.

I wouldn't even consider saying sorry.

I don't complain when Olly offers me his tip every week.  Very Happy 

That's the way Freek!  thumbsup 

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Post by Guest on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 10:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:
FreekShow wrote:I packed a Fudge for lunch today but enough about Duty's training day.

I wouldn't even consider saying sorry.

I don't complain when Olly offers me his tip every week.  Very Happy 

That's the way Freek!  thumbsup 

Turned  Laugh 

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Feb 2014, 10:08 pm

Keep turning Freek....it's wayyyyy more fun!

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 6:11 am

Be very careful, my friend.  I have seen people lose their jobs for less and trust me, if you don't sort it out, it won't be forgotten.  It could come back to haunt you in the future.   You can bet your boots all her female mates are on her side and women can be very vengeful creatures with long memories.  It is incredibly stupid to underestimate a woman who bears a grudge.

The old phrase, "Least said, soonest mended" is the best way and a bit of humility on your part would be not only diplomatic, but would also be a very wise stance to adopt.

You committed the "offence" in front of the whole office, you should apologise in front of the whole office.  It may stick in your throat, but it would have two effects, both beneficial to you:

1.  You look the big man.  You would be admitting you did something silly and now you're making amends like a grown up.

2.  Everybody will have seen you do it, and more importantly, everybody will have seen her accept your apology.  The issue would become dead and done with.

That's the way to draw a line under the whole thing.

If you listen to the advice of those who tell you that she should go and get stuffed, you might be able to laugh it off on here, but that won't make it go away in the office.  

If she goes to HR with this, and it becomes official, nobody will be laughing, and the jolly boys on this site won't be there when you're answering to an  HR manager who doesn't see the funny side, isn't smiling and who says they must "Follow procedure".  Those are the last two words you want to hear.  

I will say it again, and you can believe me on this;  I have seen people lose their jobs for less.



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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 6:39 am

Oh, and before anybody accuses me of taking the woman's side, or being pussywhipped, or whatever, I will say that actually, I'm on VDT's side.

I too think the woman is being over sensitive, but I can see the reality of this situation if she doesn't let it drop.  

She may indeed, calm down over the weekend when she has had a chance to think it over.  She may indeed want to forget it all...... may even be embarrassed herself at her overreaction.

But on the other hand, she may not.  She might just decide this is something she can't let go of and my warning is that the whole silly business could escalate.

I'm trying to offer VDT some mature, sensible advice for what to do if it does start to turn nasty.  

I hope it doesn't come to that.  But if it does...............
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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 8:23 am

Yes you should, your boss has told you and that's that. Unless you want to make a big stand and possibly have to take it further.

Yes she's being over sensitive, yes it's daft but unless the boss is on your side (which it doesn't sound like he is,) your stuck i'm afraid.

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Post by Ent on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 10:04 am

Do workplaces actually have time to tolerate this nonsense?

Do you not have work to do rather than being galled up in front of HR laughing at an unfortunately constructed sentence?

Standing up and apologising in front of the whole office?

Is it any wonder we were in such financial difficulty?

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 10:54 am

The Fourth Lion wrote:Oh, and before anybody accuses me of taking the woman's side, or being pussywhipped, or whatever, I will say that actually, I'm on VDT's side.

I too think the woman is being over sensitive, but I can see the reality of this situation if she doesn't let it drop.  

She may indeed, calm down over the weekend when she has had a chance to think it over.  She may indeed want to forget it all...... may even be embarrassed herself at her overreaction.

But on the other hand, she may not.  She might just decide this is something she can't let go of and my warning is that the whole silly business could escalate.

I'm trying to offer VDT some mature, sensible advice for what to do if it does start to turn nasty.  

I hope it doesn't come to that.  But if it does...............

bahahahah

Sorry, contrast between term used and general language

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Post by kingraf on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 10:58 am

make a big deal of apologising to Andy. I mean, you're essentially going to apologize to Lynda for misinterpreting Andy, no?
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Post by Ent on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 12:25 pm

Try and work some innuendos into your apology.


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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 1:03 pm

Ent wrote:Try and work some innuendos into your apology.


So you think he should give her one?  Wink 

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 1:19 pm

He should give her two fingers.

I mean....that is the only way to do a V-sign!

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Post by Hibbz on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 6:21 pm

If you really want to say sorry say it with a box of chocolate fingers.

Jennifer, have you really known someone who was sacked for doing less than laughing at an amusing remark or were you just illustrating your point?

I'd love to know what they were sacked for if what you're saying is true.

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Post by Ent on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 6:50 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Ent wrote:Try and work some innuendos into your apology.


So you think he should give her one?  Wink 

Very good!

Only if he has to, but tbh you have to question the amount of work/if it is worth doing Ifnuou can waste time like this as an employer.

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Post by kingraf on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 7:03 pm

Harassment laws in the UK must be really strict if you can get fired for less than this... If my employer tried to fire me for refusing to apologize to someone because I laughed at someone else's comment... I could probably by a holiday home in the South of France once lawsuit was done...

Don't know enough about UK work laws to give you legal, advise, but my common sense tells me that unless you can remember her laughing at similar jokes (and know people who also remembered it), or have decided to take a moral stand, just apologize and get it over with. Absolutely no reason to risk it getting *messy* when you can can cut it off.
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Post by Fernando on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 8:45 pm

Just offer her a lollipop saying sorry on it & your all good fat chicks love something to suck on  OK

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sat 08 Feb 2014, 11:58 pm

Hibbz wrote:If you really want to say sorry say it with a box of chocolate fingers.

Jennifer, have you really known someone who was sacked for doing less than laughing at an amusing remark or were you just illustrating your point?

I'd love to know what they were sacked for if what you're saying is true.



Clouseau...... she was sacked for "insulting and degrading behaviour" to a male colleague.   She was given an opportunity to apologise but refused to do so.   It was decided by HR, and agreed by management that retaining the services of the woman concerned would be "detrimental to good relations and a productive working environment to all employees".

Kingraf.......  employment laws in the UK allow employers a certain amount of flexibility.  The emphasis is on maintaining a happy, productive workplace where employees feel secure and valued.  Where one individual must be removed to maintain this, it is the offender, not the offended, who should be removed.  What constitutes "offence" is deemed to be in the opinion of the offended.  In other words, it is not for the offender to decide whether or not they were intending to be offensive, but the person receiving to decide whether they felt offence.

It's a very subjective thing, but in my experience, these things usually go against the offender.

Back to Clouseau......Your attempts to alter my gender still fall consistently, and woefully short . I am still as happily masculine as ever.   I have, however, forwarded your comments on to Jen whose reply brought great laughter to us both. Oh, how we laughed.

You're not being laughed with.... you're being laughed at.  The wise man knows when to quit. The loser just keeps on going.  Which one will you be..?


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Post by Guest on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 12:04 am

The Fourth Lion wrote:
Hibbz wrote:If you really want to say sorry say it with a box of chocolate fingers.

Jennifer, have you really known someone who was sacked for doing less than laughing at an amusing remark or were you just illustrating your point?

I'd love to know what they were sacked for if what you're saying is true.





Kingraf.......  employment laws in the UK allow employers a certain amount of flexibility.  The emphasis is on a happy, productive workplace where employees feel secure and valued.  Where one individual must be removed to maintain this, it is the offender, not the offended, who should be removed.  What constitutes "offence" is deemed to be in the opinion of the offended.  In other words, it is not for the offender to decide whether or not they were intending to be offensive, but the person receiving to decide whether they felt offence.


If you ever want an eye opening experience Lion then pop into my place of work.

You'll get none of the above!

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 12:13 am

FreekShow wrote:
The Fourth Lion wrote:
Hibbz wrote:If you really want to say sorry say it with a box of chocolate fingers.

Jennifer, have you really known someone who was sacked for doing less than laughing at an amusing remark or were you just illustrating your point?

I'd love to know what they were sacked for if what you're saying is true.





Kingraf.......  employment laws in the UK allow employers a certain amount of flexibility.  The emphasis is on a happy, productive workplace where employees feel secure and valued.  Where one individual must be removed to maintain this, it is the offender, not the offended, who should be removed.  What constitutes "offence" is deemed to be in the opinion of the offended.  In other words, it is not for the offender to decide whether or not they were intending to be offensive, but the person receiving to decide whether they felt offence.


If you ever want an eye opening experience Lion then pop into my place of work.

You'll get none of the above!


That, me old China, is up to you to do something about.

I truly enjoyed working in an office environment.  Now I work for myself at home (made redundant in 2011), I miss the day-to-day knockabout banter.   It did used to get a little close to the mark at time, but we all knew when to back off, and what's more, we all knew the value of two little words..... "I'm sorry."   Using them didn't hurt and nobody felt lessened for saying them.

If you can put a bunch of grizzled old sailors into an office environment with a group of females in the 20 - 40-something age group and make it work, then we must have been doing something right.

The incident I referred to in my previous post occurred in another department to ours, but word got around really quickly and we all took note of it.  If ever a wake up call was needed, that was it.


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Post by Guest on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 12:18 am

I'm not complaining Lion. I like it how it is.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 12:40 am

FreekShow wrote:I'm not complaining Lion. I like it how it is.


All good then.  If you can go to work everyday and enjoy what you do, and who you do it with, then you're a lucky chap indeed.  As long as everybody else in the workplace is happy with it too.

The workplace can be a happy environment, but it's a delicate balance.  You can have a great bunch of people who all get on very well, and then one person disrupts it all.   The thing is, the disruptive element is not always the obvious person.  Disruptive elements are usually individuals who exploit personal popularity to get cliques of mates on their side, and then drive wedges into an otherwise happy group.  These persons then count on their mates to make it look like the other person is somehow deficient in some way, for complaining about it.

Just because somebody has a lot of mates, all agreeing with him, doesn't necessarily make him right.

On the other hand, the individual who is singled out for bullying, personal abuse and discriminatory behaviour (often women being abused by men) is the one who needs the protection of the system because they are the ones vulnerable to "Mr Popular" and his clique of mates.

It is the "Mr Popular" character..... the one who is divisive, exploitative and discriminatory.... who needs to be rooted out.  He is the one driving the wedge into the group.  And often, when he is gone, most of the rest of the workforce usually come out and say they were glad to see the back of him, really.

In the armed forces, this used to be prevalent, but recent years have seen a shift away from this.  The Army is still very sexist, homophobic and relies on bullying to enforce its work ethic, but the Navy and RAF have brought in very effective diversity strategies and because of these, bullying is almost a thing of the past in those services.  

Officers and NCO's are trained to spot "inappropriate behaviour / activity" and they challenge it.  In a hierarchical system such as the armed forces, this is possible because if a CPO grabs chummy by the ears and gives him the "Come-into-my-office-shut-the-door-don't-sit-down" treatment, it usually as an effect.  

Less so in the civilian world where discipline is less keen.  This is where HR professionals, who can use "procedure",  the law... and the threat of dismissal .... effectively come in.  

VDT has gone quiet on this thread and my guess (hope) is that he has taken more notice of good sense than stupid boy belligerence.  

I hope for his sake that by Monday morning, this whole thing has been put to bed and is no longer an issue.  He shouldn't be too proud to say he is sorry.  Even if he doesn't mean it.

Pride comes before a fall.
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Post by kingraf on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 6:42 am

management in South Africa would also more likely take the side of the offended, 4L, but once it gets to the arbitrator, settlements are usually discussed...

That said, I completely agree with VDT apologising. it's really not the sort of thing which warrants a moral stance. you inferred something, she took offense. apologise. Forgetting labour laws, I think it's the decent thing to do.
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Post by alfie on Sun 09 Feb 2014, 8:21 am

This has attracted a lot of interest !

I don't know you ; and I don't know Lynda. But she doesn't sound like a free and easy fun person...so you would probably have done better to suppress your understandable impulse to chuckle in te first place...However , it happened ; and she (over) reacted.

Now regardless of the legalities you all have to work together in the future...so I reckon it would be a sensible move on your part to express your regret at causing her distress - in whatever manner seems called for based on your usual day to day relationship. No matter you didn't intend to upset her , she was obviously upset ; so simple good manners suggests some sort of apology is in order.

You're both adults : you should be able to sort it out.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 9:57 am

alfie wrote:This has attracted a lot of interest !

I don't know you ; and I don't know Lynda.  But she doesn't sound like a free and easy fun person...so you would probably have done better to suppress your understandable impulse to chuckle in te first place...However , it happened ; and she (over) reacted.

Now regardless of the legalities you all have to work together in the future...so I reckon it would be a sensible move on your part to express your regret at causing her distress - in whatever manner seems called for based on your usual day to day relationship.  No matter you didn't intend to upset her , she was obviously upset ; so simple good manners suggests some sort of apology is in order.  

You're both adults : you should be able to sort it out.

Agree with this. While you obviously didn't intend to upset her, you did. From what you've said, it does seem that she was overly sensitive. Maybe there's a reason for that, though.

Also, if you handle it well, an apology would reflect well on you. Make a simple apology - acknowledging the fact you upset her, but stressing that you were laughing at the innuendo rather than mocking her - and then have a chat with your boss afterwards to let him/ her know that you've made an apology, that you really hadn't meant anything by the initial incident, but feel terrible for having upset someone, and that you'll learn from it. Now your boss sees you as a mature, caring person who learns from his mistakes. On the other hand, if you don't apologise, you risk creating ill will against you certainly from the lady involved, but also from any of her friends in the office. You're also going against your boss (which he/ she most certainly won't like) and risk looking arrogant and unkind.

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Post by Ent on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 10:11 am

What a great workplace culture we have created where someone can over react, miss half a days work, effect another employees work etc etc and now someone else has to apologise for it or risk losing their job.

You are going to have to apologise as others have said (unfortunately), though I would be looking for another job- could not be bothered working in that climate.

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Post by Guest on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 12:33 pm

Quite interested to see how this one pans out.

I generally start my day by walking into the office, saying good morning and offering a massive blanket apology for all misdeeds, large and small, for the coming week. I usually have to throw in another few by Wednesday though.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Feb 2014, 12:51 pm

Ent wrote:What a great workplace culture we have created where someone can over react, miss half a days work, effect another employees work etc etc and now someone else has to apologise for it or risk losing their job.

You are going to have to apologise as others have said (unfortunately), though I would be looking for another job- could not be bothered working in that climate.

PC gone mad my friend.........But those are the times we are in.......

Apologize in a sarcastically-pleasant way.......and think f**k you.............

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Post by VDT on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:46 pm

Just to update and finish the story - Lynda said sorry for overeacting
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:49 pm

Victory for common sense.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 4:10 pm

Lydia had a date Friday night by the sound of it....

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 4:20 pm

Or her Anne Summers order got delivered.....

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 4:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lydia had a date Friday night by the sound of it....

And boy can she eat.

I've never done so much washing up.

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 4:50 pm

Have you informed your boss about this and stated that in future he might want to hold off on following the code book to the bloody letter for just one second and think maybe JUST MAYBE, there's more to the story than one particular version of events and if he was to exercise a little bit of restraint, staff might be able to sort out their own problems without thinly veiled threats of disciplinary action which do nothing but leave people brimming with resentment and other people scratching their heads as to just what sort of world we live in when one person will sh!t in another person's fuel tank?

Or have you drawn a line under the whole thing?

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Post by Galted on Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:12 pm

Ask her she fancies a bit of sausage tomorrow.
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